Hairy Legs in the Dark's page

You can only take a standard action in a Surprise Round. Much like a Readied Action.
Id have to agree that a Surprise Round is covering two factors well:
1) Perception eg Who sees who first and if they both see each other at the same time move to stage 2
2) Surprise Round eg Who is the quicker to react as decreed via roll and appropriate reactionary Initiative roll to determine such

Stating you want to be in a permanent Readied Action to kill anything that jumps out from anywhere I can see leading into an argument that when the above sequence occurs and the enemy wins it. The player will go to a Readied Action definition and claim its use to say he must go first. Therefore disallowing an enemy to ever get the chance to attack first pretty much ever again if hes permanently adopting this.
Im not sure the rules were meant to be written this way surely.

Very true. Well put. Readied actions are for in combat actions.

In this case it was during walking through a dungeon with newer players. I imagined all characters are already in a readed state as they do this anyway and if its "anything I see" is the trigger action. Then it would still require a perception check and time to react much like surprise rounds anyway.

Just wanted further thoughts to assist smoothing any frustrations that may well eventuate from this outcome in the next game. As I could offer others thoughts from here on how many DMs may best deal with this themselves too.

I think a player may just be upset as a rogue had succeeded in stealthing and gaining suprise upon them (doing decent damage) in the previous encounter when he slipped away from the party for investigation of a different area. But still this advice will all help.

Thanks to all for all these thoughts to date.

I am DMing a PF1 group who are having trouble with this above mentioned combat action.

The ruleset doesnt define as best as it perhaps could and so I wish to check the situation here so to best minimise arguments.

I have a player who feels its possible to ready an action "to shoot anything that jumps out from anywhere". Ive been able to get the trigger action a bit more defined as "to shoot anything that jumps out from anywhere in my field of view"

Is this trigger action ok?

Is there a source perhaps you are aware of that can help players make their own mind up on weather an action they wish to ready is similar to others acceptable within the rules? eg a list/chart?

On a successful hit the attacker gets a free grapple.
The concept is that contact has been made via a hit and in the same moment of successful impact a grapple is also conducted.
So one hit is needed and via that hit a grapple simultaneously granted.
Its clearly not two swings to hit something. Its only one. So only one miss chance required.

We were trying to ascertain weather the downtime was during or between adventures. Majority says during (in down time), book says between adventures. Thanks for your input.

Thanks all. I agree. Its a rest related activity with avenues presented then to study and scribe new spells. However there is a time component to do it, it doesnt suddenly dawn on him and thats what I was primarily trying to determine. Cheers.

That does suggest no expense as opposed to the cost he would normally endure if copied from a spell book. However I dont feel I can (and the DM has read this bit too)use this to demonstrate that the spell doesnt require a time component to scribe into a spell book.
The above quote suggests that BETWEEN adventures these two spells can be gained, so you cant actually level up in a dungeon or wilderness and gain your spells, because you need the quiet down time to then spend it writing in these spells.
So I cant claim that no time is required with my DM unless I can find proof cause the proof to date suggests otherwise.
Is everyone playing it wrong or is there something more here being overlooked?

Thanks.
But does anyone know where specifically in the rules does it say the spells come free....both in time and actual cost?
I cant find it anywhere.

When a Magus gains a new level beyond first, he gains two new spells as in accordance with the quotation from Ultimate Magic being:

"At each new magus level, he gains two new magus spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new magus level) for his spellbook."

1)Now are these two new spells per level gained...

a) Transferred from scrolls or
b) Do they just "come to him" and he writes them into his spell book.

2) Any which way hes obtained them above. Are these spells able to be written into his spell book at no cost or time loss?.

Thanks!

This is a bit of an absurd post?

I think the writers of Pathfinder would agree. They wrote a system trying to recreate reality on paper, a hard task indeed. However if you expect every little situation to be covered your expecting a little much and complaining about rulebook size...where instead you need a bit of logic.

You obviously haven't flipped a snake on its back before, unless dead...cause its impossible. Perhaps a section may flip or land wrong, but I guarantee it will be ready to attack faster than you could. You can throw it too, it wont land "prone" and the second it touches the ground its moving, not stuffing around trying to get up...not when compared to a human.

If a tripped legged creature falls to the ground. Then, while involving a twist and occupying its protective and evasive limbs, it stands, requiring considerably more time. During which theres of course, no time to dodge. A snake doesnt stand in that fashion, it merely flips any section of its body that may have landed uncomfortably and in a fraction of a second in comparison to almost every other legged creature takes to stand...enough for it to never be considered prone or disadvantaged.

If you tripped a human in a fight, or any legged creature, youd jump on him cause you know hes disadvantaged. Id love to see someone try that with a snake.

"When rules cant cover it, pray your DM has logic!".

No option and $400k for the next stretch goal.....OUCH!!..too much Reaper.Doubt we will make it. That may have killed a strong finish, but still a good deal :)

Russell...Awesome....and your a champ to share as many others can now enjoy your impressive work.

Drugs are baaaaaaaad...

- If he's inside of a wall, can he see/hear what's happening in an adjacent room?

Sure, just add the perception mod of the stone walls remaining thickness to his check.

- Can he cast (while he's inside of the wall) into an adjacent room?

Nope, he cant see the area so no line of sight. Plus hows he meant to execute the verbal component when talking into dirt. Its like having a rag in your mouth and trying to talk clearly.

- Can he emerge(what exactly that means?), cast a spell and then go back inside the wall?

Sure, if his movement permits or he has the appropriate feats. The walls like air so it doesnt effect what he can normally do.

Awesome....so SLOW isnt as sexy as it sounds!
5ft step is a "miscellaneous" action....new action to me!
Thanks guys!

But thats where it gets a bit unrealistic. You see if you cant take a 5ft step then standard to attack, cause its a move action then a standard action and you can only do either. Then how can you still charge from even further away than the above example and attack by using the charge limited to standard action?
Its a hard one! Can anyone nut it or is it a bit of a flaw?

I understand the staggered condition to be this...
"A staggered creature may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions). A staggered creature can still take swift and immediate actions."

So does this mean while staggered, if you take a standard action, you cant also take a 5 foot step?
Thanks!

Thanks guys for your efforts and consensus!

Ok thanks!

However, if the act is say doing something like opening a door which can be seen or even casting a spell which can be heard all which provokes an att of op. Then Id assume they can take an attack of op based on this pereception, even though your invisible?

And if you cant pass through their 5ft square invisible (seems unrealistic, but ok). Then does the character get any bonus to his acrobatic check cause he cant be seen when taking it?
I cant find anything which helps.

Finally and this is the hard one. If you do attempt acrobatics through an enemies 5ft square while invisible and you fail. Does the enemy get the attack of op provoked if he cant do attack of ops? (as the rules state under concealment)

Hello All,
Had an interesting situation that prompted a few problems I was hoping you could assist with.
Condition/Situation= I needed to find any item depicting a certain rune within an orc encampment. On opening a door I saw such upon a few small sheilds on the rooms walls. On entering the room it was "the big bad boss orcs room" who via his hounds scent ability detected me then basically proceeded to close a double door and stand in front of it with a guard standing in front of it as well . This covered the two five foot squares the doors filled, so I couldnt escape cause I couldnt pass through their square to open the door and get out.
I eventually lured one of them away from the door (started extinguishing the rooms torches) opening a space for me to enter adjacent to the door, opened it and managed to escape. But the opponent just ran ahead of me (as I stopped and healed to stop my visible blood trail) and just stood ahead in my 5ft passage, again blocking my escape.
During this we encountered these main questions....

1) Attack of Opportunity= If I was to be in a threatened square while invisible and do something that provokes an attack of opportunity. Or simply leave the threatened square. As I have full concealment, do they still get to make attack of opportunities without any visual clues to trigger them?

2) Passing Through An Enemy Square= Can an invisible person pass through an opponents square of the same size when invisible? I couldnt do so with acrobatics, as without any invisibilty bonus, the DC was too high to pass him. Any attempts would provoke an attack of opportunity on my fail and so leading to my eventual death if I continued trying it. I couldnt do it with stealth either as the Dm didnt think it sounded correct in doing so, as with invis bonuses i was virtually undetectable and would escape.

3) Enemy Passing Through Your Square= CAn you allow an enemy to pass through your square when invisible? Even if you are flat footed? Figured it may be like Over-run feat where you can simply chose to stand aside and let them pass (but not when flat footed).

4) Flat Footed= I was eventually forced to attack exposing my position. When this attack was conducted I was invisible, so I reappeared. Does this mean I appear when I hit him or before I try and thinking to do so... so the orc isnt flat footed to my first attack as he knows Im "out there somewhere", but when I reappear to attack he sees me and so is not flat footed?

So I was stuck, with an orc blocking my 5ft passage out and unable to pass him sliding against walls past him or even stealthfully moving through. So I was forced to attack, revealed my position and in an encampment of 2000 orcs....game over.

I hope this makes sense and you can assist.
Thanks!

It does make more sense, any creature can be hacked and fall unconscious, then without attendance, bleed out. No matter what it is. Making it apply only to players removes from the realism. I guess its just assumed that a monster is dead when it falls cause the characters after the combat will go around cutting throats of the fallen enemy, ensuring their death or they simply bleed out during the minute or two it takes to loot their bodies.
Thanks all.

The only indirect evidence Ive found prior is that Diehard is available to a companion as a feat, which in its definition implys the companion acts as do characters when reduced to negative hit points.

Awesome.
Is there any mention of point 2 anywhere within either the Pathfinder, 3.5 or d20 rule sets?

I have a Druid and his animal companion but had the following questions I cant answer.....

1) Does a Druids animal companion start with full hit points at first level or need it roll for its hit points.

2) Does the companion die at 0 hp like monsters do or at its negative con score like player characters?

Thanks!

Hello All,
Yes Wisdom of 4 is very bad. But that was just what I rolled as one of my stats!(my worst stat roll ever) And as the character was ninja (play testing) and he couldnt use charisma as his dump stat (hed have a -3 ki points modifier) and I couldnt see any other dump stat besides Int for him and who wants to play an Int 4 ninja!...lol...The wisdom addition statement from the DM came after game when I questioned if he had a problem with me as there were a few harsh statements made by him during the game (not rule related) and he was trying to perhaps prove something, but not sure what and he wasnt to interested in replying to my question after the game when I was trying to work out why he was this way besides the wisdom remark.

The flash bomb was thrown by an alchemist.

I was asked to roll a reflex save as equally as the "enemy" (a horse and Ill explain this later) and I rolled one shy of the DC, so there was no bonuses given. Bit rough I thought as I was watching the action while an unaware horse who doesnt know what a flash bomb is and not waiting for it like me, got the same save (we hadnt been seen by the enemy or horses, but we were aware of their impending arrival and could hear them moving forward at a slower pace from behind the collums). I did say something, like the plan was just very cinematic and I thought a great one and I wasnt sure an ambushing participant would watch the explosion when he knew it would blind him and could watch the alchemist go to throw the bomb as the trigger to shut his eyes (when the horses couldnt) but it was overridden pretty quick and I had to roll my reflex save.

The enemy in question were actually horses drawing a carriage (I didnt mention this as its a bit more embarrassing and it didnt matter really so I simplified the example here but now see some complexity raised). We knew the carriage was due to arrive as the front mounted guards had already galloped past and not spotted us and we knew the carriage was next (which was moving about 20-30ft per round). My next move was either to attack the unblinded horse, if they saved, to stop the carriage or run up to the carriage if they were blinded, as a move and try open the carriage door(my job was to run up to the carriage once stopped and try open the door and release a prisoner, so I needed my full round move to do this. Sorry if this changes the dynamic, but it was a lengthy description as is and I was trying to simplify it. I assumed the flash was a fraction of a second in time and as my act was described to be "delayed" with the sole intention to do my bit, I was thinking the act of my colleague throwing the bomb was my trigger to jump into action so shutting my eyes was a natural thing done outside of my intended act. That was the exact scenario and DM didnt suggest this complexity while I was delaying the prior two rounds with our plan in mind, but when I mentioned I obviously would shut my eyes when the bomb was thrown before my colleague had thrown it (cause I knew this Dm would probably make me blinded if I hadnt, which is fair).So the wait for this second carriage entailed two rounds of a delayed action. I only delayed as we were heavily outnumbered and warned by an NPC that the 10 hell guards were too tough for us, so we should grab and run and I needed as much of my round to do this so I delayed my action with my trigger to be to move into play once my colleague had thrown his bomb. But either way the DM didnt appear open to a discussion about it at all and simply stated the act of blinking is a free action so must be taken on my turn and that its not my turn. which I felt a bit rough as he knows I dont know the rules as well as him so he could have cut some slack on this first experience, but hes a bit like that with rules (hes a lawyer). Even tougher when he knew I was an integral role in opening the carriage and if this plan wasnt executed correctly there was a very real chance of a TPK due to being outnumbered etc as there was only three of us.
Thats the jist of it and just felt it a bit unfair I had the same save as a unaware horse who would probably watch the bomb being thrown anyway if done in plain sight...lol

We were playing a pathfinder adventure module of first level (one where you needed to get a hostage from the carriage and escape with them)

Thats as much detail as I can remember.
Thanks!

Im pretty sure he said free action, and so only in my turn. But it was a bummer not to be able to alter the mechanic, especially considering I was delaying my round ready to do this discussed plan prior anyway.
Weather I blinked or turned away for the sec the bomb was between the hand and the ground, then turned back. I can see a flash taking a fraction of a second in time (not eeven worth turning away for, hence blink). Im sure as your fighting naturally and aware of your suroundings your turning your head and dodging etc and doing other simple things over six seconds anyway.
It was also said, as I had a wisdom of 4, I wouldnt be wise enough to do this plan. I did think that, but I thought wisdom would be knowledge of a flash bomb and what it does and as my character is reasonably intelligent, hed ask the effect of the bomb/plan when discussed with my comrade and so know to close his eyes to avoid blinding when the plan was executed via intellegence. The plan was rushed, so we didnt role play the discussion anyway as the enemy had arrived but the concept was between players.
Wrathstrike...lol..nice one.
But i figured free actions are at Dms discretion and that had been stated already, so instead of a cool tatic Im sure anyone could pull off in real life without problems, I got blinded and lost that next round too.
Thanks guys!

We came across an unusual circumstance during our last game and hoping some here may clarify better than we could.

Basically the party (including me) decided to lay in wait on two sides of an entrance hiding behind collums. The plan was that one of these persons hiding behind the collum would throw a flash bomb once the enemy walked through this opening and the other would attack while the enemy was blinded.

Now when this was due to occur (I was the one who was going for the suprise attack)and the enemy was spotted walking between the collums (who hadnt seen us). I said to the DM that of course when I saw the bomb being thrown by my collegue behind the other collum at the enemy I would naturally blink enough to avoid the flash then attack(I did not say it after the bomb had been thrown)

The DM said that this couldnt be done because blinking was a free action, so it must be done on my turn and as it wasnt my turn in the inititative yet, it ws the bomb throwers, I couldnt blink.So then I was blinded as well as the our enemy.

Im not sure if the rules say this, or I should have "readied an blinking action" instead. Which would have effectively bogged down our plan.

Im not sure if this is taking rules to an extreeme, as how I see it, moving ones head, or arm should equally be free acts too and theres plenty of this going on within a six second round as is, free or otherwise. So I didnt really think blinking would need anymore attention that forewarning my Dm prior to the flash that I would shut my eyes for the brief second when the bomb was due to hit the ground and explode.

So is this taking the rules too far or does this seem reasonable within the games mechanics?

No worries, apologies accepted. ^_^

I don't think lowly of you, and I appreciate the kind words from you Hairy, and Calypsopoxta. I too love debating, and I've met the type of guy you thought I was, so I know I what you mean. :)

On a related note, I would like to add one more thing. You two have both shown exceptionally good reasoning in your arguments, and I actually have little doubt that with a combination of the summoner's WBL (as Calyposopoxta showed), combined with the summoner's spells (as Hairy showed), the eidolon would be a doomsday force against whatever happened to be in its way (the poor fighter included =P).

Perhaps you guys should consider getting together and working on a summoner/eidolon strategy guide. I noted some the weaknesses that they can run into during actual play (compared to an actual fighter) during my other posts, but there's such a wide variety of things that can be done to help or hinder the eidolon, that it might be a bit much for new players. Back when the Artificer was released in 3.5, people didn't know what you could really do with it from a practical standpoint; so a few fans who knew their stuff put together an artificer guidebook in pdf format. I think the two of you could pull it off with the summoner/eidolon as well. ^.^

Maybe a couple of short summaries and FAQs about the class, the pet, and their abilities. A few comparisons, a few role considerations (such as using the summoner/eidolon as the main-tank, damage dealer, full-party support, and hybrids), and maybe a sample build or two based on some general themes (maybe mounted summoner, minion-master, etc).

I think it'd be a success. =)

Thanks Ashiel. Sounds a good idea. But Ill give it thought due to time restraints and so it may not be for a while.

Ashiel wrote:

I must admit to having lost my temper at least once during this thread. The constant dismissals out of hand, combined with demeaning comments about "fighter lover", and "Go find a fighter thread if youd like to rave about fighters" were getting under my skin more than they should have. I'm not going to participate in the discussion further, so I won't trouble you further.

I will note, however, that PvP matches between classes generally comes down to a couple of rounds with a few big guns and glass-cannons are favorited in such matches since killing the opponent in round 1 means you're the winner. It doesn't take into account the kind of situations a character will encounter throughout the game, or against a more balanced set of obstacles.

Hence why I was discussing things based on an actual game. A fighter build designed to kill the eidolon and his summoner would likely be quite specific without party backup, and would likely be less useful while in an actual game. Likewise, a summoner/eidolon build needs to cover more bases to usurp the fighter's role and benefits to the group, since to beat the Fighter at his own game would require contingencies against a variety of situations that complicate things. I tried to explain this once or twice, but I apparently did a very poor job of it. For that, I apologize.

I wish both sides luck in their competitions.

I hope my personal posts didn't get under your skin. It was never my intention to troll you. While I disagree with you on your opinions on fighter versatility, I've no problem letting it be just that, a disagreement unrelated to this thread. Thank you for your thoughts none the less, and handling your temper so well.

Id like to point out that the below is said straight and isnt sarcastic at all.

Calypsopoxta wrote:
On the note of magic items. Wraith, ARE we using item creation rules? I don't want to open Pandoras box but I can't find a single magic item in core to give a competence bonus to ride. Should we ask permission for each item made if it's a 'Cheap Trick' or not? First time I've done this friendly online skirmish thing before ^_^

I think we should. Some people want to use wish etc. I think thats what a fighter is going to need, but its a bit unfair too pull out in an arena like battle. Support the classes abilities with items, but dont get something thats obviously wayward.

Ashiel
"No, I'm not. Go re-read my post. I was talking about how stupid "I can kill X" debates are. That's why I separated that from the rest of the fighter. "

Settle Grettle? Besides, what are you talking about? If you dont want to enter such a stupid debate, then dont walk into one and start debating something else, cause your going to look stupid? Like now. This is a thread about one on one. Everyone whos posted in it has followed suit but you keep going on about how wonderful your fighter is with everyone in the parties help against the summoner help and all his magic bits. You do realize this enough for yo not to check your saying whats been asked or just saying what you want? Go find a fighter thread if youd like to rave about fighters, cause thats not what this poster has asked?

"Notice that with the fighter example, the I noted that the most expensive item that he had was the +5 weapon, and noted several times that the fighter I posted was one that could do well in a variety of situations versus a variety of opponents? "

Here we go again. I again recommend you read the point of this thread cause your just looking stubborn and foolish now? Nobody cares about your fighter, we want to compare these two builds in battle, not pat your pet twinkles.

"I said if it was just about killing the other guy, then time stop + pure killing would do that, but it wouldn't really mean anything. Classes are valued based on their ability to contribute, not just their ability to kill something."

Bravo. Yes in game its about contribution sure. But we arnt in game are we, we are responding to someones thread. If you dont like what the thread has asked, go to another one? No need for rah-dee-rah. I think your sore cause you know your goofed it and the fighter is disguised in wedged in a small crack too frightened to come out (contributing!)

"As to a PvP match, if you must. I would request that we find an unbiased 3rd party, run a single build through a variety terrains / encounter locations, and so forth. Likewise, we could do it on OpenRPG or something similar."

Very well put. Unfortunately,Im not "If you must", try "If everyone must" if you had read Wraithstrike has presented a sensible solution that covers all you have requested and he obviously loves his fighter build too but he gets the point here?. In fact he and Calypsopoxta are ready to battle (almost)and have already covered all yourabove expectations very well. So if you havent read that either yet, Im wondering why your calling me blind when you havent seen what everyone is talking about? Or stubborn cause when asked to re-read you maintain adamantcy your build is still wonderful for any environment.

So lets stop the trumpets from blaring cause your reminding me of one of those kids who rocks up to anothers birthday party and starts wanting all the attention. You should start another post if you have a super fighter. If you have a fighter who can handle a summoner than give it a go, but Ive honestly not seen anything without requiring outside assistance yet? Which isnt really supporting the build when its being supported by other classes?

I guess where you believe I was making a mistake was with the idea that comparison of the fighter to the eidolon shouldn't be made in a vacuum. Most of the examples I gave were based around the idea of both being used and played within an actual game. Hence, in an actual game, where things actually matter.

.....But this thread isnt about a game is it? Its about one on one so you have either not read these posts correctly or perhaps not understood them?

No, the fighter doesn't have all his buffs while in an antimagic field (I actually said this), but he doesn't wink out either, which means he's still more useful than summoned monsters and eidolons in situations where an enemy caster drops an AMF to protect himself vs the eidolon. No buffs is better than not existing (even temporarily).

...Ok so you cant hit the Eilodon, he cant hit you. You cant get at the summoner so Im not sure where the advantage is. The spell expires, you get pummeled?

The eidolon could be smaller, but in which case he loses out on his natural reach and most of his brute strength and combat maneuver benefits, as well as the damage potential of his attacks.

...You mean his reach is 5 ft less? Hes stil got 10ft reach or 15ft if bipeadal. The Eilodon I chose didnt use all its attacks, with the extra points now he can. It all works out in the wash.

On a side note, continuous protection from evil is +4,000 gp on your armor according to the magic item creation rules, so the fighter can have it up 24/7.

.....The Eidolon is evil is it?..

Toss a 1/day freedom of movement on his armor for +16,800 gp, which can render grapple shenanigans useless for about an hour and 10 minutes, so it's a pretty solid long term buff.

...True but thats why hes got trip as back up to cover such foes.

So for about 45,820 gp, you got a +5 suit of full plate with an armor kilt that protects you proper from certain shenanigans.
...Incorrect. My ones not evil.

Good choice of protective gear. Toss in a buckler for around another 41,800 gp for a +6 shield bonus and another 1/day freedom of movement, if you're worried about it being dispelled (which could happen if you get slapped with some dispelling). Add an amulet of natural armor for +3, ring of protection +3 for 36,000 gp total, +5 dexterity (+2 base, +3 item) for 36,000 gp, a minor cloak of displacement and a ring of resistance +5 for 49,000 gp together. Now you have +5 to all saves, 41 AC, a 20% concealment which means you have a 1/5 chance to avoid attacks and are immune to precision based damage like Sneak Attack. It's roughly 1/4th your WBL. That leaves you with around 300,000 gp to grab some nice +5 weapons,...

...Whos sneak attacking? Are you talking generally again or have you mistaken the summoners abilities, probably general. Greater invis 50% miss chance and the summoners not bought anything yet?

Well done wraithstrike, nice effort.

Hairy Legs in the Dark wrote:

1b Fighter 20 feats vrs 16 feats and 26 evol points+2 (basic feat, trip grab, poison, ebergy attack)= summoner 39 = clanker death

2a No spells, no support...your not a wizard, your a fighter. The summoner has all the spells you want though, maybe if you asked him reeeeal nicely= clanker death

2 b Fighter = 18 str + 5 progression= 23 str
Eilodon base Str= 16 +11 advancement + 16 str

4a Disguised? what you trying to hide from the summoner now? Why hide your Eilodon when your have greater invis or just summon as a standard action?

'You're blind. Fighters have WBL appropriate to their level, so this idea that the fighter is supposed to fight the eidolon naked is asinine and foolish. An unoptimized fighter (only 15 strength) can pull 30 strength easily (I explained how) by 20th level."

I am, but not stupid? Take as much as you wish, dam well take the wish to get your strenght. but can i use my wish on you or just the same benifit to the eilodon so to nullify your advantage?

'Several spells are available through support options via WBL; primarily the buff spells which are likewise low level spells and easy to support with cheap magic items.'

Sure, but you arent activating them and fighting same time are you? Summoner is.

"I perhaps didn't make myself clear enough, but I was speaking in terms of ability. The fighter can out-damage the eidolon, take him in a strait fight at the same levels, and also be more useful to the party in more situations. I was speaking in terms of actual gameplay; since 1 vs 1 PvP matches are <i><b>incredibly stupid</b></i>, since a classes's strengths vary. A Paladin for example will get rocked by a Non-Evil Fighter, for example, whereas the Paladin will rock an Evil Fighter."

Did you read the first post on this thread? Its a one on one fight?

"You have incredibly flawed ideas of how this game works, and you seem insistent to stack the deck in favor of the eidolon by demanding the fighter fight him with lack of proper equipment. That's just dumb."

No, no, no...i just think using wish is a bit much?. use what you like, deck him out silly, but see what he uses first round in the grapple or tripped and pushed away!

"As to the disguise portion, I was talking about being in an actual game, since to determine of the eidolon is in fact better than the fighter, he would need to be able to handle more situations. Hence why tactical advantage, terrain, squeezing, disguising, and similar are all important."

But we arnt in a game? Re read posts.

"The fighter isn't just better at...

Magic does win, however you are aren't considering the fighter's options. Any fighter who cannot counter invisible creatures, or fly, at 20th level is a failure and will always be a failure. With only so much as a see invisibility effect, the fighter would tear the summoner to pieces very quickly, rendering most of the situation moot."

Well if you need your magic stuff to help, you better chose them wizely, especially if your in an antimagic field!

youd be tripped, pushed, grappled etc etc before you hit the summoner. then when the summoned is due to drop...blam...new one. you can chase the summoner if you like, bit hard if hes frying you while you fight his creatures or an eilodon himself after you somehow escape all his summoned, offensive and teleportation spells. plus many creatures, many options, spells and many attacks from these sources.

does the fighter get dispel magic greater too? Cause all these magic items suited for antimagic fields and assistant buffs against their a dispel, all look a bit dodgy to me?

Calypsopoxta, 3 minutes ago
Hey,
Nice build and nice point in conclusion. Those whom weild the summoner know its power, those who havent never will (unless we "re-edumacate!!"...lol

This is fun...ok...
5) Unlike the eidolon, the fighter doesn't fight as well in an antimagic field but he doesn't go away either. The eidolon simply winks out in an anttimagic field just like any normal summoned creature.

5a= Your still asking for help arnt you? You claim later the fighter needs magic stuff, but hes now in an antimagic field? Is he still large too for those bonuses? Just incase you had an "antimagic Ring"...lol...your Eilodon doesnt disappear entirely? Only when in your field that which your now hiding. So Eilodon sits in your feild, summoner teleport, greater invis to hide etc etc...antimagic field blinks out and as the Eilodons been right behind you watching, suprize!= clanker death

6) Quad. 26 evol points. 10= Huge= +16 str +8 con etc
16= claws(4), reach, pounce, impr nat dam claws,grab, trip, rend, gore, energy att, push
No increase ac, he has +80hp now and thats what mage armor, shield, cats etc is for?
"Each claw deals 1d8+16 damage"
Nope= 3d6+16. Is this before you deal with reach A.O.P, power att and grab? wouldnt that add a little something?
"Our fighter who only begins with a 30 strength (15 base, +5 level, +6 item, +4 tome or wish"
Hes got a +6 sword (in an antimagic field) and hes had a WISH on him now! Would the summoner get this too to be fair, which means its nullified right?
"and a haste effect (such as from boots of speed or normal buffing, or a speed weapon)."
He still going for help isnt he? And using this in an antimagic field against a summoner who gets the same stuff? summoner doesnt need them or help, he casts these. Wheres the advantage? Summoner has haste, you can try ask for it instead of the Eidolon getting it??
"While enlarged "
Yeah ok, ok, why not, have antimagic and help and break a few rules. Go awwwwn, have enlarge.
"his glaive deals 2d8+47 points of damage per hit or 56 damage per hit or 280 damage if all hit"
Is this why hes grappled? What happens when hes grappled cause that happens before you can get close enough to hit him once right? Can we see the problem here?
"The eidolon will definitely need to close into melee to get his hits in."
Reach, pounce, 50ft movement, grab..strangle, throttle, gurgle....
"And the fighter still has 14 feats left to spend"
as apposed to sum/eilod 18? wanna swap? why not im feeling generous today.

"7) Our fighter has a fairly solid defense against most will saves since he gets a +5 vs fear effects and a casting of protection from evil will keep him warded for hours on end (or he could just get protection from evil permanently added to his armor)."

i love this backdrop army you own! No caster dresses to hide behind here! your fighting one? Your playing one character not a fighter, wizard and cleric?
How many times do you roll a will save for fear as opposed to everything else? Help with magic jar? the summoner doesnt have fear on his list so what are you fearing?..the eilodon?? Fair point. Even if you buffed up sponging off a wizard prior, hello summoner dispel round 1 ding ding...your pants are down!

"8) Finally, our fighter can change sizes easily."
...with more help no doubt?
"The eidolon to be fully optimized must be huge."
...why not large with a heap more evolutions?
" Without this optimization, the eidolon's damage and advantages when compared to the fighter are rapidly diminished. However, this also creates tactical problems when you don't have the space to deal with such things (since the majority of encounters don't take place in an open desert)."
...its an arena? its 15ft wide, its ok in a room, uless we are in a corrodor now or your hiding in a narrow space with disguise and increased will save against fear? So you can now come out and play with my pet or i can still see you panting away, so try a spell a round till your toast, thats right, not even bought up the spells yet....maze, planar binding, dispel, eilodon evolution (more points), heroism, haste, eilodon rej (healing), buffs, stoneskin, magic fang, rage, and look at that reduce person....i knew there was a reason i gave enlarge to you!

Look I really like fighters too. But Ive played both and if you had we wouldnt have a need to do this cause fighters are supposed to be able to fight, not take hits from a equal opponent AND spells at once each round.

Its a quick game. Your grappled, your history or if the eilodons only large or you cant be grappled, your tripped, pushed back and take more At.o.Ops on your stand up and charge? How about greater invis and 10ft reach, your not hitting as much now even if you can find him and shrug of the magic jars while you look?
Even if you could drop the eilodon aND his shared hit points with his master, and its getting healed. the summoner is greater invis, possibly flying and hes a SUMMONER with Planar Binding. You cant hit what you cant see and you have waves upon waves of creatures to deal with now before youll ever get close.

Is there anything else?

Clanker death..... Case closed.

Hairy Legs in the Dark wrote:

I think youll need too.....

1) A magically buffed fighter in an anti magic field?
2) You dont have buff spells, youll need someone else. Even if he had potions, try drinking while attacked while the summoner buffs in unison?
2) A sole fighter can change his combat tactics round from round but TWO creatures with spell casting and all the extras wont as much?
3) Fighters have a +5 Bab on Eilodon at 20th did you include the Eilodon is now huge has +16 str with 15-20ft reach and many more attacks?...clankers wont even get close to him before hes had a few wacks and pushed back to where he started or grappled and what use are your shiny first pref weapons now?
4) Youd prefer at 20th roughly 20 feats as a fighter, as apposed to 26 evolutions (trip, reach, push, abil increase, grapple, poison etc etc) plus 8 feats, plus summoners 10 feats...or why not turn your summoner into another Eilodon and get double the above..bit unfair hey?
Did I miss anything?
Honestly, you sound a fighter lover...as was I till I saw the light!
The class is broken in the right hands.

1) Firstly, 20 feats = 20 feats. A 26 point evolution pool =/= 26 evolutions. Most of the more impressive evolutions require more evolution points.

1b Fighter 20 feats vrs 16 feats and 26 evol points+2 (basic feat, trip grab, poison, ebergy attack)= summoner 39 = clanker death

2) Fighters have upwards to 5 more HD than eidolons, and a melee bruiser fighter can comfortably support a +10 strength modifier by 20th level without optimization, granting a similar CMB and CMD, and can be larger thanks to spells that don't affect the eidolon due to type or restriction (including enlarge person and the polymorph line of spells).
2a No spells, no support...your not a wizard, your a fighter. The summoner has all the spells you want though, maybe if you asked him reeeeal nicely= clanker death
2 b Fighter = 18 str + 5 progression= 23 str
Eilodon base Str= 16 +11 advancement + 16 str large= 43 str= Clanker death
2 c Fighter CMb Base 20 + 6(str)= 26
Eilodon CMB base 15 + 16 (str)+ 8(size)= 39= claker death

3) The fighter doesn't risk being dismissed in the middle of combat by spells such as dismissal or banishment, which both enemies and allies may need to toss around from time to time; which can complicate things.

3a Stop asking for help from others all the time. I know you need it but its a mono a mono fight? Eilodon banished? Planar gate greater? Turn into the Eilodon himself. Summon city = Clanker death 9without help)

4) The eidolon cannot be disguised, or concealed using methods other than invisibility. In many campaigns (including several I run), this could be a problem in many scenarios.

4a Disguised? what you trying to hide from the summoner now? Why hide your Eilodon when your have greater invis or just summon as a standard action?

The class is broken in the right hands. Go one, feeeel the power!

...

Hairy Legs in the Dark wrote:

And magic items may confuse things as it presents something equally used by both classes, so bare knuckle and butt naked it. (besides a simple weapon or armor if need be)

That's not how it works. A melee class is far more dependant on magic items than a caster class is. All tests must be done based on WBL, otherwise you are screwing over anyone who isn't a full caster.

True, but do note theres a fighter and a wizard (cruel to exclude when people are passionate on them) being recommended to oppose a summoner, so there wouldnt be as much unfair biase? Besides with weapona and armor available it sounded fairer and the fighter had his base necessities?

And magic items may confuse things as it presents something equally used by both classes, so bare knuckle and butt naked it. (besides a simple weapon or armor if need be)

I think this thread would be more fun with a scenario?

Lets say unbuffed, shoot out at 20ft at what ever level, no suprize. (it doesnt matter cause this summoners riding his Eilodon to slaughter town!..lol)
Any of the "summoner wont win" opposition wish to study up their toughest level they can make and let the summoner lovers know what level they feel safest with?
Also, it would be interesting to see which posters actually have and haven't played a summoner?
I guess its obvious "I have!"?

wraithstrike, 22 minutes ago
You are assuming the summoner is close enough to kick the eidolon, or he isn't locked down with black tentacles. :). Why is the wizard taking damage? You can probably make a flying eidolon, but that is less damage. Every option the Eidolon wants takes away from his direct offense and defense. He can be a combat monster or be decent against several things, but even with the evolutions he can't do both.

edit: I just noticed the level 20 comment. At 20 the eidolon better win initiative, and pray that it ends the fight. If not then timestop + gate + random whatever sends him and the summoner packing.

Summoner (Ready action dispel magic when the wizard casts)
Eilodon free to kill....wizard takes damage. Or ready action a hit doing a lot of damage while hes casting and see if he can get a spell out, either hit and/or in a grapple with a huge monster? Not sure why a wizard wouldnt be taking damage and losing his attacks each round?

Yep. I am assuming the summoner and Eilodon are in reach. Thats how they work. Why wouldnt the summoner be close when hes getting +4to ac and saves just by being close?

Despite both being in reach (within 20ft)with poss A.o.Op. The wizards now got a sleep and a black tentacles out and both successful before the summoner has had a turn?..lol...you do know theres two initiatives against one right, the probability doesnt look great?
Timestop and gate solves all, its a broken combo and I was waiting for it as its the only rabbit in a wizards hat that can help. But hes 20th level and thats why wizards die before they get there.
The fight would at 20th be two (summoner can be an Eilodon) huge, reaching neanderthal monstrosities to sit on him (grapple)or while a summoner dispels as the wizard tries to teleport out from certain death from 7 attacks a round (wizard hasnt buffed yet as well right?), let alone get out an offensive spell next round even if able, hes losing rounds trying to escape one foe while the other keeps firing?
Dont forget the summoner has spells too, greater invis, dispel, planar binding greater and these are scarring the sky as a wizard is dealing with a multi limbed monstrosity?
It boils down to initiative at higher levels and again, so you better hope the wizard wins against TWO initiatives.

Ashiel, 7 minutes ago
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Tanis wrote:

However, that's not why I'd take a fighter. I didn't really even intend that to be a contributing factor for the fighter (merely humor / random trivia). I would take the fighter because its fairly easy to get his AC up, change his combat tactics round to round, adjust from melee to ranged without a lot of trouble, and gain reach by merely equipping the correct weapon, become large with a cheap potion, get lunge if they want, etc.

Fighters have +5 BAB on an eidolon at 20th level, before factoring feats and abilities, which for the most part will make them equal or better at combat maneuvers like grappling. The fighter also has a full +5 more to his CMD as well because of it.

Also, and check this out, if the summoner is taken out, the party's tank doesn't go with 'em. He's also not subject to all the dismissal and banishment spells that people use to deal with pesky summons. Likewise, as best as I can tell, while protection from evil doesn't prevent contact by an eidolon, antimagic field shuts them down just like any other summoned creature.

So by the large, the fighter in general is better. The eidolon can be buffed to be similar to the fighter, but then having an equally buffed fighter would be better by comparison.

Should I go on?

I think youll need too.....
1) A magically buffed fighter in an anti magic field?
2) You dont have buff spells, youll need someone else. Even if he had potions, try drinking while attacked while the summoner buffs in unison?
2) A sole fighter can change his combat tactics round from round but TWO creatures with spell casting and all the extras wont as much?
3) Fighters have a +5 Bab on Eilodon at 20th did you include the Eilodon is now huge has +16 str with 15-20ft reach and many more attacks?...clankers wont even get close to him before hes had a few wacks and pushed back to where he started or grappled and what use are your shiny first pref weapons now?
4) Youd prefer at 20th roughly 20 feats as a fighter, as apposed to 26 evolutions (trip, reach, push, abil increase, grapple, poison etc etc) plus 8 feats, plus summoners 10 feats...or why not turn your summoner into another Eilodon and get double the above..bit unfair hey?
Did I miss anything?
Honestly, you sound a fighter lover...as was I till I saw the light!
The class is broken in the right hands.

wraithstrike, 22 minutes ago

I am not putting money on the Eidolon against a caster, not ran by a competent player anyway. Anything that can get to a caster can kill it. That is why smart players make sure they don't get touched. Displacement,Mirror Image, Fly, Haste or Expeditious Retreat, Invis. That Eidolon probably has a weak will save. Put him to sleep, fear him, etc, or just ignore him and take out the summoner. Hit points alone are not the only way to take someone out of combat.

Not quite Wraith.
If hes 6th level he gets devotion.
Devotion (Ex): An eidolon gains a +4 morale bonus on
Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Which means an Eilodon gets two bad saves and one good. But with this feat and its effects take him through to 20th and his "weak save+devotion= all good saves at same progression"

But the summoner is fighting a basic fighter here isnt he? If its wizard vrs summoner its different. However remember the wizards not dealing with one opponent. Kick your Eidolon and hes awake or waste a dispel. Wizard just lost his turn and with an Eilodon with reach, grapple, and 3-5 attacks AND a summoner spell to fend off per turn. I just cant see a wizard popping out many more spells, especially if hes taking damage while casting? He just better have teleport! Run away!!..lol

Archery is under the assumption you cant make a forbidable fighter from your summoner.

Summoner can use his Eidolons evolution points as he advances.
Take a human summoner. Hes armed with a long spear. 10ft reach. Casts enlarge person (15ft) reach. Takes the reach evolution (20ft) and strength increment, with combat reflexes and a 15ft reach Eilodon, a charging fighter gets A.o.Op city on his charge with his lower ac and gets one attack. Then your Eilodon gets many attacks of which can push his opponent back 5ft each time (with reach). Then the fighter cant 5 ft step anymore as hes 15ft away. Its another charge. More Att.o.Ops then his one attack. Then again the summoner and Eilodon opens up their round with a ton more attacks. Its just too much for any medium creature to endure.

BenignFacist, 14 minutes ago
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Calypsopoxta wrote:

An eidolon with a summoner riding it will be a great deal harder to kill. It's hit points are much bulkier when both summoner and eidolon have diehard, which was part of my build, meaning you have to kill both to kill one. I planned to make sure the beastie had an amulet of mighty fists +5, since it ignores all but 1/- DR in pathfinder.

I didn't want to get into "this means that", "so-and-so can do this" ect. arguements until I had a good idea of what a generic optimized lvl 20 fighter typically had, feats and gear wise.

Doesn't that tactic require you to wait until your 14th level?

Not necessarily.
A small race can ride a medium mount at first level. A medium race can ride a large mount when the evolution points are available and they reach 8th (I think). See evolution point pool.

Im currently playing a Summoner with Eidolon that would absolutely maul a fighter at any equivalent level. But until you build a summoner yourself and have a good look at the evolutions, you may just browse the charts and understandably think theres no comparison.
Summoners have so many strategies offensively and defensively that a fighter wouldnt get close to killing the Summoner, he MAY down the Eilodon on a good day, but thats not killing the Summoner. Putting it simply without explaining the build, a fighter would struggle against the reach, A.o.Op, multi attacks, evolutions, flank, two lots of feats and spell effects all coming at him within the same round.

nathan blackmer (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber), 4 minutes ago
'Heading back to the main point of the thread, I think that the threat of death is a vital part of the campaign as a whole in terms of atmosphere. What I normally do, because I don't like to kill characters willy-nilly, is to give them a permanent injury whenever they hit deep hp negatives.'

Thats a REALLy good idea! Although the concept of healing seems to fix just about anything, maybe a rejuv will be their way out of say a limp caused in such a manner, which reduses their base speed by 5 ft till the spell is cast. Then its a painful reminder to retard and remind them for a bit. Plus its not forgotten plus and a challenge to rid!

Im impressed. thats probably why in hebrew your name means "gift from the gods". Thanks!

Sure, thats what I say to them too. Actually every fights like that for us. If its a walk over for the party, Ill throw in some more orcs say, if its not and they get by, "Ooooh you were lucky!"...lol...Keeps them thinking they JUST made it and adds to the fun! I like that angle too.

Wolfthulhu (Pathfinder Charter Superscriber; GameMastery Superscriber), 5 hours, 39 minutes ago

'Sure reads like an attack. And it's totally off base.'

We are talking about DMs killing PCs and the angles all shared. Despite extended narrative, thats what the post related too right? However I felt some in these chats rooms have to relax a little, most seem a bit too serious. This isnt ego debating and although suttle, theres a lot of it here. So much so a poor Pathfinder staff member stepped in to sort it a few pages back!

I just thought Id throw something in that would make people smile to imagine experiencing. Jess sounds so sweet, theres no point in attacking her and hoped she shared a chuckle in the contrast of such extremes. But if your a serious one and that little smile didnt wedge free, then just trust in the PS note stating its not in any way meant to be an attack? Cause its my posting, and its not.

No need to justify her DMing either. Although you didn’t die, which is what happens with DMs who don’t want to kill you.

The underlying point to is, despite the laugh, was really that players enjoy a challenge and people may see DM niceness as a potentially malleable weakness or as non threatening, cause the DM will always be nice and try not to kill you. If you believe a DM is seriously out to kick your ass, maybe even a little mean, and you kick his, you feel an additional rush cause you know hes not mucking around. Truth is its making out you have an ego involved in the challenge too ( not in an over bearing game controlling way) and then allowing your ego to get beaten adds to the players rush. If they get beaten silly in a fight, especially if soon to the game or DMs introduction, it keeps them on their toes, attentive and determined the rest of the game.

Truth is I am a Jess like DM. I used to feel real bad when I had slain a PC. But i find it easier to instead come down harder at first, a real fight to survive and with a fallen PC (which will happen, nice style or not) to mentally refer too, who died brutally from a minor slip up (maybe not forgetting the chips!..lol). Becomes an example to refer to for all that didnt die and I that dont want to kill, that this is a serious world and if they dont wish to die, they need to be careful. Then its a shared death and others gulp a little, then focus even more cause they dont want to die. so for me a death has benifits, its not all bad. As for the departed. I believe its human nature for most players to step up to a challenge as equally as they enjoy stepping up to a fight, so make it appear twice the challenge and see twice the reward in their eyes when they win!

Jess Door (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Adventure Path Subscriber), 02:56 AM Flag | List | FAQ | Reply

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I hate killing PCs. I can't help wincing as I roll a critical threat on one that's already hurt. I keep apologizing as I do enough damage with a monster in one blow to take more than half a PC's hit points away - I can't seem to help it,

WHAT!!!

Jess the DM= "Unfortunately an arrow from that nasty, nasty orc unluckily hits you during such heroic acts! (whats your hit points?....oh my golly gosh...)...umm...It digs a tad deeply though and, and, and... it actually kinda hurts a little bit. Soooo you feel the need to take a little nap now then you may feel better! So you comfortably fall back in a blanket of soft green clover. your eyes gently close and you smell the scent of showering pink pretty rose petals and hear trumpets blaring in solemn love for their fallen heroic, impressive, very intelligent and charming and pretty strong and (whats your charisma?)..even a bit sexy!..(whats your race?)...ahh.. half orc falls asleep like a little baby fairy snuggled up with mother in a little gum nut!!......so yes... your kind of not really very alive much now...anymore...sorta....and ...im just so so sorry....ok?.... ..umm....would you like a chip?"

NATHAN THE DM= "The orc tosses his girly bow and charges drawing this HUGE axe salivating madly from slimy fangs at the thought of drinking your babyface blood. He slashes brilliantly (roll....horah!!!) across your belly splattering your intestines everywhere and as you to grope at your spilling entrails pathetically attempting to stuff them back in. You fall to one knee allowing the now gleeful orc to pick out an eyeball with a sole dirty elongated fingernail to which he flicks back bouncing off your forehead before blackness prevails due to a savage btch slap with your bloody newly removed arm, causing the other eye ball to fly out yet attached and dangling via its pink optic nerve. You topple backward in HORRENDOUS pain as the lone eye is jostled around between hordes of goblins tearing at your useless fat FORGETFUL ass , giggling and betting on how many main organs they can eat (without the use of hands) before your heart stops beating in your mauled, now naked carcass that will soon be scooped clean and used for a gay hill giants matching hand bag and slipper set....so.....whos the tuff one now?...now THATS what I call a power attack!..hey?...sorry?..you say something?...yeah...thats right..…I didn’t think so…..Ok, so... Anyone else forget their initiative order besides the Mr Goldfish impersonator here?..by the way, you can go home now, and lets all see next week if you forget the chips"

Get in there! Take the kiddy gloves off and get your hands dirty. Take those pcs down. Its a do or die world and lets play it, not gay it!

You do this to your PCs, sure they will gasp, wince and moan and depart the room silently or with a sniff. Maybe they come back, maybe they dont. But if they do, they certainly listen more and hang on your every word cause they know one wrong move and BLAM they are eatin dust. People crave a challenge, death is their fear, take it away and youll get boredom (unless your all top notch roleplayers)

Im cruel, but when PCs leap out of the chair in excitement after they win an encounter and high five cause they over come the odds. I sit there with my inner smile.....because…...it worked...NOW i won.

PS= Im not this bad but you know what i mean and Jess. You sound a nice person and this isnt an attack at all ok. Its been a long day and Im just sharing a laugh, so thanks.

Why you guys trying to kill the troll?
Poor little troll,… come here.

Why you trying to work out how to kill it? Just cast charm monster and watch your enemies try work it out!
Or I can get my dire bear to eat it. If it reforms from bear pats, then that sounds a sight worth watching!
I thought the starvation/drown thing too, leaves him out of my way. So what hes “alive” somewhere 40ft under water used as a ships mooring for my lifes term…but.its not in my face killing me!!
Or just rip him down, tie him up and drop him in a deep hole and fill her in.
He may not die, but he will wish he was. Especially if I return to uncover his head and spoon scoop its brains out on a monthly basis and feed to my cat. I don’t care if your super man, but immobile for a month in darkness, (passed out or otherwise) then a 5 min break to have my skull caved in each month doesn’t sound a lifestyle Id wish to pursue for too long.
But I always need make a living too!. Maybe I could gather a few of these things, manacle and bury their bodies under ground up to their necks If I caught 18 of them I could start up an always ready to go golf course for the hill giants!!

If you really have to kill it,…. with some quick thought, Id try this…
1) Chop its head off and then stand it on a rock upside down, the head cant regrow into stone. Pretty ornament too, but don’t knock it over! besides, i like the word incapacitated over dead, cause then the party doesnt stop!
2) Your problems are his resistances…but it still feels pain and has rudementary intellegence for you to tamper with. Torture permanently till it wants out and rejects obligation to gods, there by making him vulnerable again… or no time to ch3eck, but if he can suppress the ability, he will. Once gone, hes gone.
3) Or just go kill his God instead for being such an utter bugger for giving him resistances and us all these dramas in the first place. Sounds easier than all this!

I think the general concensus is if stacking is permitted, which is doesnt appear so. then a gang of witches is awesome.

But put a first level fighter onto a first level witch and the only thing broken will be that witch!

In fact, put a witch up against most things mono-a-mono and i think youll see their weakness with a sole flimsy minor debuff. it all balances out really.

I just want to see a witch run for her life while cackling but apparently its not going to happen! But then its twice as funny to see a scared witch torn between laughing and running. i hope you can role play!!

As for overly stacking the same hex. most text can be read many ways, just think through whats logic and fair or inline with other classes and thats probably what it was meant to be.