Ready Action


Rules Questions


I am DMing a PF1 group who are having trouble with this above mentioned combat action.

The ruleset doesnt define as best as it perhaps could and so I wish to check the situation here so to best minimise arguments.

I have a player who feels its possible to ready an action "to shoot anything that jumps out from anywhere". Ive been able to get the trigger action a bit more defined as "to shoot anything that jumps out from anywhere in my field of view"

Is this trigger action ok?

Is there a source perhaps you are aware of that can help players make their own mind up on weather an action they wish to ready is similar to others acceptable within the rules? eg a list/chart?

Dark Archive

Jumps out from anywhere. Not walks, rolls, climbs, swims, flies, struts, saunters, or strolls.
Add long as an nothing jumps, his action is wasted. Id have someone walk up and slap the stupidity out of the character.
Do they mean when anything moves? That's whomever or whatever acts next in the round. So if an ally moves he targets them.

Dark Archive

As a GM, I would handle that situation as that character is ready to shoot anything that suddenly appears, albeit friend or foe or innocent or whatever. The player will learn quickly to be more descriptive in their readied actions when they accidentally shoot an ally or worse their benefactor because they appeared (i.e. "jumped") into his "field of view" from his perspective.

But as a GM, you are the final arbitrator on all. You can decide his description is too broad to be proactive to a situation.


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Was this player trying to cheat their way to attacking targets that were otherwise unattackable by this player? If not I don't see a problem with that phrasing.

Though the rules don't say so explicitly, any readied actions have to otherwise be legal actions. If you want to attack something upon a certain trigger you have to be able to attack it.

Pretty much anything that can be done as a standard action or less can be readied (off hand I cannot think of any exceptions). Attack someone or something, cast a spell, movement, retrieving an item, certain skill checks, etc.
As long as the desired action is otherwise legal and possible, you can ready it.

I rally don't see how the rules could be much clearer. Perhaps I've just played 3.x long enough that I don't see any problems with it.

Name Violation wrote:

Jumps out from anywhere. Not walks, rolls, climbs, swims, flies, struts, saunters, or strolls.

Add long as an nothing jumps, his action is wasted. Id have someone walk up and slap the stupidity out of the character.
Do they mean when anything moves? That's whomever or whatever acts next in the round. So if an ally moves he targets them.

This is known as being a smartarse.

ckdragons wrote:

As a GM, I would handle that situation as that character is ready to shoot anything that suddenly appears, albeit friend or foe or innocent or whatever. The player will learn quickly to be more descriptive in their readied actions when they accidentally shoot an ally or worse their benefactor because they appeared (i.e. "jumped") into his "field of view" from his perspective.

You can always choose to not take the readied action.


When my players make readied actions, I want specifics. "If the BBEG starts casting a spell, I'm going to shoot him in the face", or "If the BBEG charges, I'm going to brace my weapon into the ground and attempt to dismount him", or "If the BBEG attempts to use a teleport spell, I'm going to cast Dimensional Anchor". If they said "I'm readying an action for just in case anything jumps out and tries to attack us" I'm gonna give them a raised eyebrow and a sigh of exasperation and say no.


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Name Violation wrote:

Jumps out from anywhere. Not walks, rolls, climbs, swims, flies, struts, saunters, or strolls.

Add long as an nothing jumps, his action is wasted. Id have someone walk up and slap the stupidity out of the character.
Do they mean when anything moves? That's whomever or whatever acts next in the round. So if an ally moves he targets them.

That is some seriously dick move adversarial GM advice.

Dark Archive

Inm just saying to take his wording literally. If someone tries to vaguely word a ready action to be all encompassing it should backfire.

If they say they want to shoot the next enemy they see, that's fine. Just say it. Saying i want to target the next thing that jumps only targets things that jump, just like targeting the next creature to cast a spell would only target creatures casting spells.


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TLDR: As long as the player isn't trying to cheat I see no problem with this.

If they're veteran players then holding them up on the word "jump" is fine - they should know better.

If they're new players who aren't used to the readied action mechanics then it's the GM's job to interpret what they're trying to do. In this case the player is really "readying an action to shoot the first enemy I see". This is fine.

The exception to this is if they're walking all the across the continent with a readied action to "shoot the first enemy I see" in order to game the system into automatically giving them a surprise round. While there are some circumstances where long term readied actions make sense ("I'm watching this door while the wizard prepares spells and I'll shoot anything that comes through"), something as broad as "shoot anything I see" is really the default action that people would take normally, and is covered already by the perception and surprise mechanics.


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Readied Actions can only happen in Combat, not walking throughout the world or wandering around in a dungeon crawl. If you're not in combat, you cannot do a "readied action".

The best you're going to get while you're out of combat is a perception vs perception roll to act in a Surprise Round.

Readied Actions wrote:

Ready

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

Surprise Round wrote:

Surprise

When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness

Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.

The Surprise Round

If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants

Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

So in the case of the OP, you have a PC who is out of combat saying he wants to ready actions to shoot anything that jumps out, and it's just not possible to "ready an action" until Initiative has started and it's that PC's turn.


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So in reality, it should go like this:

PC1: "I want my bow at the ready and I'm going to shoot the first enemy that jumps out and tries to attack us."

GM: "Okay, you've got an arrow nocked and you're scanning the corridor ahead for any potential threats."

PC2: "Who wants a mountain dew?!"

GM: "After about 30 seconds of traveling down the corridor you see the hallway end in a T that you can go right or left, and something suddenly jumps out from behind the corner, seemingly unaware of your presence! PC1 and PC2, make a Perception roll." <GM rolls an opposed Perception roll>

PC1: "I got a 21 Perception roll."

PC2: "I got a 7 Perception roll."

GM: "It looks like PC1, you notice the monster first, but PC2, you do not notice him in time to act in the Surprise Round, and the monster does not see you yet so it won't be able to act either. Everyone roll Initiative. This monster has green skin, it's about 6 feet tall, and looks like it is quite intelligent and capable of using magic."

PC1: "I got an 18 Initiative."

PC2: "I got a 21 Initiative."

GM: "And the Monster gets a 14 Initiative. PC1 it's a Surprise Round, you act first. Your weapon was at the ready, so you don't need to do a Move Action to draw it, and you can perform a Standard action or a Move action."

PC1: "I'd like to use a Standard Action to shoot the Monster. I roll a 22 to Attack."

GM: "That hits him square in the shoulder and he roars out in pain. Roll for damage."

PC1: "15 damage."

GM: "Okay, that's the end of the Surprise Round. Round 1, ready, fight! PC2, you're first."

PC2: "I'd like to Ready an action to cast Dispel Magic to Counterspell the Monster if he starts casting a spell."

GM: "Okay, you've readied an action. PC1, it's your turn."

PC1: "I'm going to shoot him again... I get a 13 to hit."

GM: "Your arrow hits him in the other shoulder, but bounces off and causes no damage. It seems this monster has quite a thick hide. Okay, it's the Monster's turn. He starts casting a spell, would you like to use your readied action?"

PC2: "Yes, I want to dispel it!"

GM: "Okay, make a Dispel check, and your initiative has just changed to 14, but you'll go just before the monster next round."


Very true. Well put. Readied actions are for in combat actions.

In this case it was during walking through a dungeon with newer players. I imagined all characters are already in a readed state as they do this anyway and if its "anything I see" is the trigger action. Then it would still require a perception check and time to react much like surprise rounds anyway.

Just wanted further thoughts to assist smoothing any frustrations that may well eventuate from this outcome in the next game. As I could offer others thoughts from here on how many DMs may best deal with this themselves too.

I think a player may just be upset as a rogue had succeeded in stealthing and gaining suprise upon them (doing decent damage) in the previous encounter when he slipped away from the party for investigation of a different area. But still this advice will all help.

Thanks to all for all these thoughts to date.


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Punishing a player for their word choice instead of asking for clarification is terrible game mastering.
If your players are running from a horrible, terrifying monster, enter a room, slam the door shut and pile furniture in front of it, do you then tell them that the horrible, terrifying monster just casually opens the door, because none of them specifically said they locked the door and none of them specifically asked which way the door swung?

I sure hope not.

At that point, why not kill off animal companions and familiars because the player hasn't declared they've ever fed the critter?
Or, hey, when's the last time any character has been specifically stated as using the bathroom? Ruptured bowels, septic shock and death for all!

A player who's trying to twist the game to their advantage is another thing and should be stopped, regardless of their methods or how success rate.

The idea that you can only ready an action once combat has begun seems sketchy at best; what about all the other standard/move/free actions? Can you only cast a spell after you've entered initiative order? Or drink a potion?
But I don't think you need such a hard-and-fast rule to put a stop to players trying to have a readied action at all times forever, anyway. Rule Zero is enough and, as far as I can tell, the only option regardless.


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Quixote wrote:


The idea that you can only ready an action once combat has begun seems sketchy at best; what about all the other standard/move/free actions? Can you only cast a spell after you've entered initiative order? Or drink a potion?

You can cast spells and drink potions out of combat all you want, there's no limiting factor to that. However, the purpose of a Readied Action is meant to delay your turn in Initiative to wait for a condition to occur, and once it occurs, you perform your stated action at that exact moment and your Initiative is then changed for the rest of the encounter.

Ergo, Readied Actions can only happen once Initiative starts and it's the PC's turn.


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Also, in the OP's example, this PC is attempting to be ready to shoot anything that jumps out and is threatening, right? There's already a mechanic in place for that exact scenario, and that's the Surprise Round. It's a simple Perception vs. Perception check from both sides, and whoever notices the other party gets to act during the Surprise Round, and whomever wins Initiative in the Surprise Round gets to act first.


Ryze Kuja wrote:


However, the purpose of a Readied Action is meant to delay your turn in Initiative to wait for a condition to occur...

I don't think that's the purpose so much as part of the mechanical effect. The purpose of a readied action is to perform X when Y ocurrs.

A band of adventurers sneak up on a sleeping giant that they want to capture alive for some reason. Several of the PC's prepare their giant-capturing devices to all strike at the same moment. Several more are poised to strike if the giant resists.

--I guess you could argue that they've entered initiative order and the first PC's all delay to be on the same initiative, but then...what, the other group use the surprise round to ready an action?

What about a heavily guarded merchant caravan, and there's a band of highwaymen preparing an elaborate ambush?
Bandit A wants to throw some alchemist's fire at a pile of oil-soaked brush they've laid in the road once the caravan is within 10ft of it.
Bandits B and C want to take out the driver and guard in the front once the fire starts.
Bandits D, E and F start firing into the main column once the guards at the head go down.
Bandits G and H lie hidden in the underbrush between A-F and the main road, prepared to intercept anyone who starts heading for the other'other's position.


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Quixote wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:


However, the purpose of a Readied Action is meant to delay your turn in Initiative to wait for a condition to occur...

I don't think that's the purpose so much as part of the mechanical effect. The purpose of a readied action is to perform X when Y ocurrs.

A band of adventurers sneak up on a sleeping giant that they want to capture alive for some reason. Several of the PC's prepare their giant-capturing devices to all strike at the same moment. Several more are poised to strike if the giant resists.

--I guess you could argue that they've entered initiative order and the first PC's all delay to be on the same initiative, but then...what, the other group use the surprise round to ready an action?

What about a heavily guarded merchant caravan, and there's a band of highwaymen preparing an elaborate ambush?
Bandit A wants to throw some alchemist's fire at a pile of oil-soaked brush they've laid in the road once the caravan is within 10ft of it.
Bandits B and C want to take out the driver and guard in the front once the fire starts.
Bandits D, E and F start firing into the main column once the guards at the head go down.
Bandits G and H lie hidden in the underbrush between A-F and the main road, prepared to intercept anyone who starts heading for the other'other's position.

Every single example you just gave is supposed to be done in the Surprise Round. Opposed Perception Checks from both sides determine who get to go during the Surprise Round, obviously the Ambushers would have already passed their Perception checks, so it's up to the "ambushees" to make theirs or they don't get to act in the Surprise Round and the ambushers have successfully ambushed their targets.


But the surprise round isn't a full round. So how do you complete any action more involved than a single standard or move action?
If player A wants to take an action when X occurs and player B wants to take an action after player A takes theirs, and player C after player B's, how do you do that? Roll initiative and everyone delays into their proper order/readies an action, then completes the action?

I mean. I guess it works out the same, it's just a lot less intuitive and has a lot more steps, and doesn't ragout simulate what's actually happening as well.

What about an ambush where there are multiple rounds before actually blows are exchanged? Maybe the bandits are loading a stealth-trebuchet. Or maybe they're genuinely not sure if they'll attack the caravan until they watch them unseen for 10 rounds.

The way we've always run games like this is that everything is always in initiative order. It's just not always practical to track it that way.

As far as the OP goes, I'd let a player notch an arrow and pull back for a scene. Maybe there's something up that's put the players on high-alert, even beyond the normal walking-through-dangerous-territory vibe. Like, maybe combat is (seemingly) imminent. That's fine with me. Can't see how that breaks anything. But just all the time, forever? No. You'd be dead in a week from a stroke or heart attack, assuming you somehow managed to stay vigilant that long.


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Quixote wrote:

But the surprise round isn't a full round. So how do you complete any action more involved than a single standard or move action?

If player A wants to take an action when X occurs and player B wants to take an action after player A takes theirs, and player C after player B's, how do you do that? Roll initiative and everyone delays into their proper order/readies an action, then completes the action?

I mean. I guess it works out the same, it's just a lot less intuitive and has a lot more steps, and doesn't ragout simulate what's actually happening as well.

What about an ambush where there are multiple rounds before actually blows are exchanged? Maybe the bandits are loading a stealth-trebuchet. Or maybe they're genuinely not sure if they'll attack the caravan until they watch them unseen for 10 rounds.

The way we've always run games like this is that everything is always in initiative order. It's just not always practical to track it that way.

As far as the OP goes, I'd let a player notch an arrow and pull back for a scene. Maybe there's something up that's put the players on high-alert, even beyond the normal walking-through-dangerous-territory vibe. Like, maybe combat is (seemingly) imminent. That's fine with me. Can't see how that breaks anything. But just all the time, forever? No. You'd be dead in a week from a stroke or heart attack, assuming you somehow managed to stay vigilant that long.

Readied actions arent full round actions either though


Cavall wrote:
Readied actions arent full round actions either though

I never said they were. But if you want to take an action when a specific condition is met, then you're taking a standard action and someone else is taking a standard action...more elaborate combat plans can take a round or two to set up, which is impossible if you're limited to a single action in the surprise round, versus taking several turns before "combat" in the game's sense has begun.


You can only take a standard action in a Surprise Round. Much like a Readied Action.
Id have to agree that a Surprise Round is covering two factors well:
1) Perception eg Who sees who first and if they both see each other at the same time move to stage 2
2) Surprise Round eg Who is the quicker to react as decreed via roll and appropriate reactionary Initiative roll to determine such

Stating you want to be in a permanent Readied Action to kill anything that jumps out from anywhere I can see leading into an argument that when the above sequence occurs and the enemy wins it. The player will go to a Readied Action definition and claim its use to say he must go first. Therefore disallowing an enemy to ever get the chance to attack first pretty much ever again if hes permanently adopting this.
Im not sure the rules were meant to be written this way surely.


1) I'd recommend not tripping players up on pedantic wording of the readied action. Take the spirit of their intent, and if you find their trigger condition to broad ask them to narrow it down. Personally I find, Shoot anything that comes out of hiding/invis/etc a perfectly valid trigger. Obviously for your trigger to work you must know said NPC is now there - it doesn't let you take an invalid action.
1a) Readied actions only have meaning in the context of being in combat, so the stated trigger action would be for additional combatants entering the fight, not for a pre-surprise round effect.

2) Someone stated up thread that the given trigger action means you must shoot an ally or innocent if they trigger the action. This isn't correct. A readied action MAY be taken on the trigger, not MUST be taken. If they choose not to use it the first time it triggers, and another character fulfills the trigger they have the option to take it on the second character, and so forth.


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Surprise Round mechanics is about as fair as it gets between two opposing parties. Imagine two groups of PC's in a PvP match rather than one group of PC's vs. monsters.

In this theoretical PvP match, both parties have told the DM that their weapons are at the ready and they're going to instantly shoot anything threatening. The two groups of PC's are in a labyrinth style battle map and they meet each other around a corner at the same time. Everyone gets a Perception check to notice the other party, and those who successfully notice the other party get to act in the Surprise Round. That's pretty fair for both sides. Once that's established, everyone rolls Initiative to see who goes first. Also pretty fair for both sides.

Imagine if this was done with readied actions, and both sides were just getting free shots off on the other party and it was outside of Initiative. It would be chaos, and players on both sides would feel cheated.


If both sides are rolling Perception and want to start rolling for attacks, then yes. That's the surprise round, 100%.

A player who's trying to get a free arrow out of a permanent readied action is a player who either doesn't understand the game or is trying to wring every advantage out of it they can (just recently had to give a player in t second camp the boot, and they tried to pull exactly this stunt). That's not how it works.
Now, if the player has reason to suspect a specific length of corridor or doorway as being specifically dangerous, fine. There's a difference between walking around with your weapon drawn and generally alert than having it poised to strike a foe you suspect is just around the corner. But the latter is not something you can keep up for very long.
Unless you're a zombie or a golem or something. A while back, my players walked into the heart of an abandoned temple to find a greater stone golem on the other side of the door, boulder-sized fists raised above it's head for the last jillion years...

Ryze Kuja's scenario involves two sides with readied actions that all basically have the same trigger, so...yeah, Initiative order all the way. Fast people with readied actions are still faster than slow people with readied actions.

Readied actions do not let you undertake an action that you could not attempt in other situations. They aren't extra actions and they don't let you bypass normal rules.
If your friend kicks in the door and you're ready to split whatever foul beast lurks on the other side in two, that doesn't do you any good if said foul monster beat your Perception roll.


Here's another thing to consider: Readied Actions cost a Standard Action. The only time you're ever going to be "charged" a Standard Action is when you're in Initiative and it's your turn in the round. (My point is that when you're not in Initiative, doing something that would normally cost a standard action is not tracked because Time spent doing something is not important when you're outside of Initiative. Time is essentially theoretical whenever you're outside Initiative. 30 seconds can pass just as fast as 3 months in real-life time).

So there are instances where you're in Initiative but not actually in combat with a monster as well. I've done Initiative with a crumbling dungeon before. It was essentially a self-destruct button and the dungeon started crumbling around them, and they had 5 rounds (30 seconds) to get out anyway they could, and they would have to stop to disarm traps and blow up stone that fell from the ceiling that was now blocking their path, etc., and there's no reason why they couldn't have done a Readied Action during that time because they're in Initiative.

I guess my point is that "combat" with a monster is not actually required for a Readied Action, only Initiative is. Because the purpose of a Readied Action is to delay your action to respond to someone or something else later in the round, and then your Initiative changes for the rest of the encounter.


Sure, that tracks.

My point is that, while time is "essentially theoretical" when you're "outside of Initiative," being outside of Initiate is a theoretical state itself. Your crumbling dungeon is a perfect example of a situation where Initiative is not specifically called for by the main rules, but is obviously beneficial or even necessary.

Everything is always in Initiative order; it's just whether or not it's worth tracking.


Is there a compelling reason not to allow the player's ready condition to stand as described?


Quixote wrote:

Sure, that tracks.

My point is that, while time is "essentially theoretical" when you're "outside of Initiative," being outside of Initiate is a theoretical state itself. Your crumbling dungeon is a perfect example of a situation where Initiative is not specifically called for by the main rules, but is obviously beneficial or even necessary.

Everything is always in Initiative order; it's just whether or not it's worth tracking.

Not really. The mechanics are designed around determining a new initiative order whenever combat begins, meaning that sometimes Alice reacts more quickly than Bob and sometimes Bob reacts more quickly. Leaving everybody in initiative all the time means that nobody ever really rolls initiative, meaning that surprise rounds no longer happen, abilities that revolve around surprise rounds cease to be relevant, and so on. You can play the game just fine this way, but it's a different experience.

But yeah, it's a very good idea to use the initiative system when it neatly resolves questions like "who makes it out of the crumbling dungeon alive?" even if it wasn't explicitly intended for this purpose. A good GM chooses (or creates, if necessary) the best tool they have available to solve a novel problem.

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