Ok so it's Fighter VS. Summoner, but who's doin all the work, right?
Anyways. I've heard a lot from both ends on who would win in an Eidolon vs. Fighter scenario, and I wanted to get some general perspective on it. To begin with, does anyone know a solid, universal optimized PFRPG fighter build(complete with magic items) to toss against an equally optimized eidolon with summoner? Whichever general build (TWF, 2HF, Sword/Board) one would think gives the fighter the best chance, but nothing specifically designed to take down the Eidolon with heavy investment (like an outisder bane weapon ect.). Lets make it PFRPG stuff only, no 3.5.
I have my own summoner build I've been working on and I'd like to think it'd kick the fighters butt. At the same time, if a fighter could down an optimized summoner/eidolon combo I'd be pretty happy about how the PFRPG fighter has turned out.
Ok so it's Fighter VS. Summoner, but who's doin all the work, right?
Anyways. I've heard a lot from both ends on who would win in an Eidolon vs. Fighter scenario, and I wanted to get some general perspective on it. To begin with, does anyone know a solid, universal optimized PFRPG fighter build(complete with magic items) to toss against an equally optimized eidolon with summoner? Whichever general build (TWF, 2HF, Sword/Board) one would think gives the fighter the best chance, but nothing specifically designed to take down the Eidolon with heavy investment (like an outisder bane weapon ect.). Lets make it PFRPG stuff only, no 3.5.
I have my own summoner build I've been working on and I'd like to think it'd kick the fighters butt. At the same time, if a fighter could down an optimized summoner/eidolon combo I'd be pretty happy about how the PFRPG fighter has turned out.
It depends on the builds really. The eidolon can get 8000(not really, just hyperbole) attacks and they can outdamage a fighter in that regard, but each attack does less damage than an individual fighter's would so throw on some DR and the Eidolon loses out. The important thing here is not how well they do versus each other, but how well they do against the bad guys since they fill similar roles.
What level is your build? If I had to choose a fighter build I would go with an archer to combat it. I am more than willing to test your build out, but once again arena fights and value to the party are two different things.
The Eidolon, by itself, is going to be pretty heavily inferior to a Fighter at most levels, and it gets worse as the levels increase. At early levels it will be able to do a bit more damage due to having 3 attacks to the Fighter's maximum of 2. On the other hand, the Fighter will have much better hit points (Eidolons do NOT get a maximized first hit die) and quite possibly better AC.
Fighter all the way. The eidolon is like Fighter-lite. It's definitely good to have around and makes a great meat-shield, and has a lot of spiffy abilities, but there are some major things to consider.
Fighters get a full BAB which not only translates into more accuracy, but also more damage. If the enemy has a high AC, the eidolon will miss more often than the fighter. Coupled with the fighter's Weapon Training, the fighter will be much more likely to succeed while dealing great damage. The eidolon will suffer both against high AC and DR.
The fighter's armor can provide more abilities than just defense. While both the fighter and eidolon can push AC very effectively without sacrificing much in the way of damage, a fighter's armor can contain a variety of magical abilities. A fighters armor can give resistance against critical hits, energy resistances, protect against incorporeal creatures, and so forth.
The fighter will generally have more HD than the eidolon. Something no to be under-estimated is the fact that some spells and effects are based on or limited by HD. A fighter will be able to handle a spell like blasphemy, while an eidolon might be rendered comatose via a series of harsh status penalties.
Likewise, an eidolon is vulnerable to spells that banish and dismiss outsiders. This can create a difficult situation the moment you enemy begins tossing such spells around, or if you're fighting outsiders, you could end up in situations where you can't use your spells for risk of banishing your tank (where otherwise you could drop banishments right on top of the fighter without worry).
Fighters get more feats. Not amazing, but fighters can afford to dip into save-enhancing feats, sport multiple attack routines (melee and archery), critical feats, vital strikes, mass demoralization, two weapon fighting, or some combination of these.
Fighters can easily change their attack options. A fighter wielding a glaive, armor spikes, slashing gauntlets, crushing gauntlets, a composite longbow, and so forth can deal with stuff incredibly well. Likewise the fighter can drink a 50gp potion of enlarge person and unleash hell on stuff, where an eidolon needs evolution to compete.
I'd take a PF fighter any day of the week. Especially if you have anyone able to buff like a summoner (or a wizard), since anything you can throw on the eidolon would also be killer on the fighter (haste, heorism, energy resists, magic weapon, etc).
The Eidolon, by itself, is going to be pretty heavily inferior to a Fighter at most levels, and it gets worse as the levels increase. At early levels it will be able to do a bit more damage due to having 3 attacks to the Fighter's maximum of 2. On the other hand, the Fighter will have much better hit points (Eidolons do NOT get a maximized first hit die) and quite possibly better AC.
Unrelated, but is there a reference for whether Eidolon's get max HP or not?
I totally agree btw, but haven't seen it in black letter.
An eidolon with a summoner riding it will be a great deal harder to kill. It's hit points are much bulkier when both summoner and eidolon have diehard, which was part of my build, meaning you have to kill both to kill one. I planned to make sure the beastie had an amulet of mighty fists +5, since it ignores all but 1/- DR in pathfinder.
I didn't want to get into "this means that", "so-and-so can do this" ect. arguements until I had a good idea of what a generic optimized lvl 20 fighter typically had, feats and gear wise.
An eidolon with a summoner riding it will be a great deal harder to kill. It's hit points are much bulkier when both summoner and eidolon have diehard, which was part of my build, meaning you have to kill both to kill one. I planned to make sure the beastie had an amulet of mighty fists +5, since it ignores all but 1/- DR in pathfinder.
I didn't want to get into "this means that", "so-and-so can do this" ect. arguements until I had a good idea of what a generic optimized lvl 20 fighter typically had, feats and gear wise.
Doesn't that tactic require you to wait until your 14th level?
o_o
An eidolon with a summoner riding it will be a great deal harder to kill. It's hit points are much bulkier when both summoner and eidolon have diehard, which was part of my build, meaning you have to kill both to kill one. I planned to make sure the beastie had an amulet of mighty fists +5, since it ignores all but 1/- DR in pathfinder.
I didn't want to get into "this means that", "so-and-so can do this" ect. arguements until I had a good idea of what a generic optimized lvl 20 fighter typically had, feats and gear wise.
Diehard
You are especially hard to kill. Not only do your wounds automatically stabilize when grievously injured, but you can remain conscious and continue to act even at death's door.
Prerequisite: Endurance.
Benefit: When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.
When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.
The feat does not stop you from dying. It might give you an extra round to stay alive though.
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The feat does not stop you from dying. It might give you an extra round to stay alive though.
::
I think he's going to try and make use of:
Life Bond (Su)
At 14th level, a summoner’s life becomes linked to his eidolon’s. As long as the eidolon has 1 or more hit points, the summoner cannot be killed. Damage in excess of that which would kill the summoner is instead transferred to the eidolon. This damage is transferred 1 point at a time, meaning that as soon as the eidolon is reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to its Constitution score, all excess damage remains with the summoner, killing him.
Effects that cause death but not damage are unaffected by this ability. This ability does not affect spells like baleful polymorph, flesh to stone, or imprisonment, or other spells that do not cause actual damage.[/b]
and..
Starting at 1st level, a summoner forms a close bond with his eidolon. Whenever the eidolon takes enough damage to send it back to its home plane, the summoner can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of hit points. Each hit point sacrificed in this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon. This can prevent the eidolon from being sent back to its home plane.[/b]
..to shift health around. Granted, it still doesn't prevent death but it does add some options.
The Eidolon, by itself, is going to be pretty heavily inferior to a Fighter at most levels, and it gets worse as the levels increase. At early levels it will be able to do a bit more damage due to having 3 attacks to the Fighter's maximum of 2. On the other hand, the Fighter will have much better hit points (Eidolons do NOT get a maximized first hit die) and quite possibly better AC.Unrelated, but is there a reference for whether Eidolon's get max HP or not?
I totally agree btw, but haven't seen it in black letter.
There's nothing in the rules that explicitly states, "Eidolons do not get maximized hit dice at first level". However, the max-HD rule specifically ONLY applies to class levels. Eidolons do not advance by, and cannot take, class levels. They advance by a chart which is based off Outsider hit dice. Type hit dice (as opposed to class hit dice) are never maximized at the first hit die; check any monster without class levels in the Bestiary for confirmation (and monsters WITH class levels for confirmation that monsters do get maximized first HD if they have levels in a class).
An eidolon with a summoner riding it will be a great deal harder to kill. It's hit points are much bulkier when both summoner and eidolon have diehard, which was part of my build, meaning you have to kill both to kill one.
And an Eidolon that has wasted its first two feats on Endurance and Diehard is going to suck on pretty much everything else. Eidolons get very few feats to start with; wasting two of them for almost no gain until 14th level is a very poor idea.
Anyway, HERE is a reasonably optimized level 20 Fighter archer build.
Yeah. The plan was, as an adventurer, to use life link with Diehard so falling unconscious didn't immediately make my Eidolon disappear. Sadly you can't even use the 14th lvl version normally without diehard or a insanely low con, because you would need to take nothing but huge hits to be sent low enough to use your eidolon's hit points, or fall unconscious, which sends your eidolon away.
Diehard on the eidolon is just so he'll never pass out before a quick heal can be thrown his way.
Thanks a ton for the link, really appriciate it. So you suggest an archer would be the best method to compete with the eidolon mount?
BTW. We're talking level 20 here, and I didn't intend to get die hard/endurance until higher levels. I'll post the whole build soon, though I don't have to many items thought up to use, mostly just the feat progression and evolutions.
BenignFacist, 14 minutes ago
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PPM Aldern avatar
Calypsopoxta wrote:
An eidolon with a summoner riding it will be a great deal harder to kill. It's hit points are much bulkier when both summoner and eidolon have diehard, which was part of my build, meaning you have to kill both to kill one. I planned to make sure the beastie had an amulet of mighty fists +5, since it ignores all but 1/- DR in pathfinder.
I didn't want to get into "this means that", "so-and-so can do this" ect. arguements until I had a good idea of what a generic optimized lvl 20 fighter typically had, feats and gear wise.
Doesn't that tactic require you to wait until your 14th level?
Not necessarily.
A small race can ride a medium mount at first level. A medium race can ride a large mount when the evolution points are available and they reach 8th (I think). See evolution point pool.
Im currently playing a Summoner with Eidolon that would absolutely maul a fighter at any equivalent level. But until you build a summoner yourself and have a good look at the evolutions, you may just browse the charts and understandably think theres no comparison.
Summoners have so many strategies offensively and defensively that a fighter wouldnt get close to killing the Summoner, he MAY down the Eilodon on a good day, but thats not killing the Summoner. Putting it simply without explaining the build, a fighter would struggle against the reach, A.o.Op, multi attacks, evolutions, flank, two lots of feats and spell effects all coming at him within the same round.
The Eidolon, by itself, is going to be pretty heavily inferior to a Fighter at most levels, and it gets worse as the levels increase. At early levels it will be able to do a bit more damage due to having 3 attacks to the Fighter's maximum of 2. On the other hand, the Fighter will have much better hit points (Eidolons do NOT get a maximized first hit die) and quite possibly better AC.Unrelated, but is there a reference for whether Eidolon's get max HP or not?
I totally agree btw, but haven't seen it in black letter.
There's nothing in the rules that explicitly states, "Eidolons do not get maximized hit dice at first level". However, the max-HD rule specifically ONLY applies to class levels. Eidolons do not advance by, and cannot take, class levels. They advance by a chart which is based off Outsider hit dice. Type hit dice (as opposed to class hit dice) are never maximized at the first hit die; check any monster without class levels in the Bestiary for confirmation (and monsters WITH class levels for confirmation that monsters do get maximized first HD if they have levels in a class).
An eidolon with a summoner riding it will be a great deal harder to kill. It's hit points are much bulkier when both summoner and eidolon have diehard, which was part of my build, meaning you have to kill both to kill one.And an Eidolon that has wasted its first two feats on Endurance and Diehard is going to suck on pretty much everything else. Eidolons get very few feats to start with; wasting two of them for almost no gain until 14th level is a very poor idea.
Anyway, HERE is a reasonably optimized level 20 Fighter archer build.
Darn it Zurai you were not supposed to show it to him. :) I do think that the archer can eat through both of their hit point totals before he can be reached though. With 16K bad things can be made to happen.
*snip*
If you want to get technical, unless they changed it in Pathfinder, there's nothing stopping a halfling from riding a human's shoulders (or wearing an exotic saddle) and guiding him out of harms way.
So Fighter still wins. Hell, if you wanted to get silly, the party's gnome can ride on the fighter riding on warhorse.
Unless they changed it in Pathfinder, and I haven't noticed, of course.
Archery is under the assumption you cant make a forbidable fighter from your summoner.
Summoner can use his Eidolons evolution points as he advances.
Take a human summoner. Hes armed with a long spear. 10ft reach. Casts enlarge person (15ft) reach. Takes the reach evolution (20ft) and strength increment, with combat reflexes and a 15ft reach Eilodon, a charging fighter gets A.o.Op city on his charge with his lower ac and gets one attack. Then your Eilodon gets many attacks of which can push his opponent back 5ft each time (with reach). Then the fighter cant 5 ft step anymore as hes 15ft away. Its another charge. More Att.o.Ops then his one attack. Then again the summoner and Eilodon opens up their round with a ton more attacks. Its just too much for any medium creature to endure.
*snip*If you want to get technical, unless they changed it in Pathfinder, there's nothing stopping a halfling from riding a human's shoulders (or wearing an exotic saddle) and guiding him out of harms way.
So Fighter still wins. Hell, if you wanted to get silly, the party's gnome can ride on the fighter riding on warhorse.
Unless they changed it in Pathfinder, and I haven't noticed, of course.
What on earth are you talking about? Gnome riding a fighter, are you suggesting the fighter...has another player ride him? I don't recall the fighter getting a free bonus player. To stop crazy nonsense, leadership cannot be applied to this thread >_>
How exactly does anything you said mean 'fighter still wins' at anything...o.O
I looked at one the other day:
8th level
Large
Grab
Poison
etc etc
IIRC, +25 to Grapple at 8th. A fighter gets what, +16 (BAB/STR22/Imp Grapple) and a CMD of about 28 (assuming a 14 DEX)?
Bite/Grab, Grapple, Continue Grapple with Natural Attack for Damage (don't forget to inject your poison!).
The Eidolon has a mediocre AC, but who cares? It's invested in Grapples every turn it can and just force CMD/CMB checks all day... so, AC huh?
Fight is over.
Put that eidolon against the enemy casters and just eat them all.
Oh, and that is *just* the Eidolon!
GNOME
I looked at one the other day:
8th level
Large
Grab
Poison
etc etcIIRC, +25 to Grapple at 8th. A fighter gets what, +16 (BAB/STR22/Imp Grapple) and a CMD of about 28 (assuming a 14 DEX)?
Bite/Grab, Grapple, Continue Grapple with Natural Attack for Damage (don't forget to inject your poison!).
The Eidolon has a mediocre AC, but who cares? It's invested in Grapples every turn it can and just force CMD/CMB checks all day... so, AC huh?
Fight is over.
Put that eidolon against the enemy casters and just eat them all.
Oh, and that is *just* the Eidolon!
GNOME
I am not putting money on the Eidolon against a caster, not ran by a competent player anyway. Anything that can get to a caster can kill it. That is why smart players make sure they don't get touched. Displacement,Mirror Image, Fly, Haste or Expeditious Retreat, Invis. That Eidolon probably has a weak will save. Put him to sleep, fear him, etc, or just ignore him and take out the summoner. Hit points alone are not the only way to take someone out of combat.
Thanks Zurai, good point about class levels.
@Ashiel: ru serious?
In these sorts of situations, what's the standard on pre-buffing? It's obvious that buffs that only last say, 1 round/level is to much. I would think anything that lasted say 10 mins/lvl or 1 hour/lvl would be allowed beforehand right? I don't really know what a 1 min/level would be 'legal'. Is any pre-buffing allowed at all?
In these sorts of situations, what's the standard on pre-buffing? It's obvious that buffs that only last say, 1 round/level is to much. I would think anything that lasted say 10 mins/lvl or 1 hour/lvl would be allowed beforehand right? I don't really know what a 1 min/level would be 'legal'. Is any pre-buffing allowed at all?
It depends on whether it is meant to simulate an arena fight or a combat in an adventure. For an adventure you can really only assume the hour long buffs are up. For an arena I would say X number of round to buff through spells/potions/etc are ok.
In these sorts of situations, what's the standard on pre-buffing? It's obvious that buffs that only last say, 1 round/level is to much. I would think anything that lasted say 10 mins/lvl or 1 hour/lvl would be allowed beforehand right? I don't really know what a 1 min/level would be 'legal'. Is any pre-buffing allowed at all?
I think in the DPR thread, the rules were that buffs lasting more than an hour were okay but nothing below. So for a single-classed char, hour/level and 10 min/level would be ok, but not 1 min/level or below. It of course doesn't have to be the same here, but I find it a fair assumption.
Thanks Zurai, good point about class levels.
@Ashiel: ru serious?
To a point, yes I am. An eidolon can be ridden and someone can use the riding rules to their advantage to negate hits from low levels as a small summoner. But then, technically, the small summoner can ride the medium sized fighter. Is it silly? Probably, but it's do-able (and I have actually seen two players actually make it make sense).
However, that's not why I'd take a fighter. I didn't really even intend that to be a contributing factor for the fighter (merely humor / random trivia). I would take the fighter because its fairly easy to get his AC up, change his combat tactics round to round, adjust from melee to ranged without a lot of trouble, and gain reach by merely equipping the correct weapon, become large with a cheap potion, get lunge if they want, etc.
Fighters have +5 BAB on an eidolon at 20th level, before factoring feats and abilities, which for the most part will make them equal or better at combat maneuvers like grappling. The fighter also has a full +5 more to his CMD as well because of it.
Also, and check this out, if the summoner is taken out, the party's tank doesn't go with 'em. He's also not subject to all the dismissal and banishment spells that people use to deal with pesky summons. Likewise, as best as I can tell, while protection from evil doesn't prevent contact by an eidolon, antimagic field shuts them down just like any other summoned creature.
So by the large, the fighter in general is better. The eidolon can be buffed to be similar to the fighter, but then having an equally buffed fighter would be better by comparison.
Should I go on?
wraithstrike, 22 minutes ago
I am not putting money on the Eidolon against a caster, not ran by a competent player anyway. Anything that can get to a caster can kill it. That is why smart players make sure they don't get touched. Displacement,Mirror Image, Fly, Haste or Expeditious Retreat, Invis. That Eidolon probably has a weak will save. Put him to sleep, fear him, etc, or just ignore him and take out the summoner. Hit points alone are not the only way to take someone out of combat.
Not quite Wraith.
If hes 6th level he gets devotion.
Devotion (Ex): An eidolon gains a +4 morale bonus on
Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Which means an Eilodon gets two bad saves and one good. But with this feat and its effects take him through to 20th and his "weak save+devotion= all good saves at same progression"
But the summoner is fighting a basic fighter here isnt he? If its wizard vrs summoner its different. However remember the wizards not dealing with one opponent. Kick your Eidolon and hes awake or waste a dispel. Wizard just lost his turn and with an Eilodon with reach, grapple, and 3-5 attacks AND a summoner spell to fend off per turn. I just cant see a wizard popping out many more spells, especially if hes taking damage while casting? He just better have teleport! Run away!!..lol
Not quite Wraith.
If hes 6th level he gets devotion.
Devotion (Ex): An eidolon gains a +4 morale bonus on
Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Which means an Eilodon gets two bad saves and one good. But with this feat and its effects take him through to 20th and his "weak save+devotion= all good saves at same progression"
Note that feat effects are usually not enchantment but necromancy, and there's a lot of will-target illusions to that Devotion doesn't help against.
Thanks Zurai, good point about class levels.
@Ashiel: ru serious?
To a point, yes I am. An eidolon can be ridden and someone can use the riding rules to their advantage to negate hits from low levels as a small summoner. But then, technically, the small summoner can ride the medium sized fighter. Is it silly? Probably, but it's do-able (and I have actually seen two players actually make it make sense).
However, that's not why I'd take a fighter. I didn't really even intend that to be a contributing factor for the fighter (merely humor / random trivia)...
So you weren't being serious then. You just threw me cuz it's meant to be 1 on 1.
p.s. when you mentioned it tho, i had a nostalgic laugh thinking of Golden Axe II (IIRC) where the gnome would jump on the barbarian's shoulders. Just hilarious.
wraithstrike, 22 minutes ago
I am not putting money on the Eidolon against a caster, not ran by a competent player anyway. Anything that can get to a caster can kill it. That is why smart players make sure they don't get touched. Displacement,Mirror Image, Fly, Haste or Expeditious Retreat, Invis. That Eidolon probably has a weak will save. Put him to sleep, fear him, etc, or just ignore him and take out the summoner. Hit points alone are not the only way to take someone out of combat.
Not quite Wraith.
If hes 6th level he gets devotion.
Devotion (Ex): An eidolon gains a +4 morale bonus on
Will saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Which means an Eilodon gets two bad saves and one good. But with this feat and its effects take him through to 20th and his "weak save+devotion= all good saves at same progression"But the summoner is fighting a basic fighter here isnt he? If its wizard vrs summoner its different. However remember the wizards not dealing with one opponent. Kick your Eidolon and hes awake or waste a dispel. Wizard just lost his turn and with an Eilodon with reach, grapple, and 3-5 attacks AND a summoner spell to fend off per turn. I just cant see a wizard popping out many more spells, especially if hes taking damage while casting? He just better have teleport! Run away!!..lol
You are assuming the summoner is close enough to kick the eidolon, or he isn't locked down with black tentacles. :). Why is the wizard taking damage? You can probably make a flying eidolon, but that is less damage. Every option the Eidolon wants takes away from his direct offense and defense. He can be a combat monster or be decent against several things, but even with the evolutions he can't do both.
edit: I just noticed the level 20 comment. At 20 the eidolon better win initiative, and pray that it ends the fight. If not then timestop + gate + random whatever sends him and the summoner packing.
This is NOT, nor EVER was a Summoner vs Caster thread.
Wizard beats everything in the game, we get it. Done. No more hijacking in that direction.
My Apologies for getting Wraith riled up. We all know that a PC Casters (and by extension *smart* NPC Casters) are King, especially starting around 8th, and inarguably past 12th. My off hand comment was not meant to detract from the discussion: Fighter v. Eidolon.
Please enjoy the discussion :)
GNOME
All good.
Whenever I make builds, I tend to let the magic item side be fairly open and move on, since a lot of that can be mucked up by the DM. Does anyone know if there's rules to make a barding version of special armor?
I'd like to clad the eidolon in Celestial Armor via barding. My nearest guess is that it'd be chain mail x 8 (only found med x2 and large x4 so...) for the size/cost of the armor, and then add the difference to celestial armor's normal cost (i.e. 7x chain mails cost).
Ashiel, 7 minutes ago
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The-pharaoh-1 avatar
Tanis wrote:
However, that's not why I'd take a fighter. I didn't really even intend that to be a contributing factor for the fighter (merely humor / random trivia). I would take the fighter because its fairly easy to get his AC up, change his combat tactics round to round, adjust from melee to ranged without a lot of trouble, and gain reach by merely equipping the correct weapon, become large with a cheap potion, get lunge if they want, etc.
Fighters have +5 BAB on an eidolon at 20th level, before factoring feats and abilities, which for the most part will make them equal or better at combat maneuvers like grappling. The fighter also has a full +5 more to his CMD as well because of it.
Also, and check this out, if the summoner is taken out, the party's tank doesn't go with 'em. He's also not subject to all the dismissal and banishment spells that people use to deal with pesky summons. Likewise, as best as I can tell, while protection from evil doesn't prevent contact by an eidolon, antimagic field shuts them down just like any other summoned creature.
So by the large, the fighter in general is better. The eidolon can be buffed to be similar to the fighter, but then having an equally buffed fighter would be better by comparison.
Should I go on?
I think youll need too.....
1) A magically buffed fighter in an anti magic field?
2) You dont have buff spells, youll need someone else. Even if he had potions, try drinking while attacked while the summoner buffs in unison?
2) A sole fighter can change his combat tactics round from round but TWO creatures with spell casting and all the extras wont as much?
3) Fighters have a +5 Bab on Eilodon at 20th did you include the Eilodon is now huge has +16 str with 15-20ft reach and many more attacks?...clankers wont even get close to him before hes had a few wacks and pushed back to where he started or grappled and what use are your shiny first pref weapons now?
4) Youd prefer at 20th roughly 20 feats as a fighter, as apposed to 26 evolutions (trip, reach, push, abil increase, grapple, poison etc etc) plus 8 feats, plus summoners 10 feats...or why not turn your summoner into another Eilodon and get double the above..bit unfair hey?
Did I miss anything?
Honestly, you sound a fighter lover...as was I till I saw the light!
The class is broken in the right hands.
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I mean, why is the wizard not black tentacled? Us summoners do that as well.
As to summoner, what level is this occuring? Here are eidolon builds at 1,5, 10.... Not optimized for this fight, just general:
1: hp: 6 bite/claw/claw d6+3/d4+3/d4+3 trip on bite +4 to hit. Fighter will mop up here; the summoner would actually be better trying to summon monster I lock fighter with dogs.
5: hp: 26 evolutions: bite, trip bite, energy, horns, wings feats: endurance, diehard.
Attacks: claw/claw/bite/gorge. +9 to hit,4+ d4+d6*2, d6+d6+4*2. Trip on bite.
11: Attacks: claw/claw/bite/wing/wing. Evolution: large, wings, grab on claw, energy, bite, spell resistance, trip on bite +18 to hit. Damage d4+d6+9 (claws do grab). Feats include Combat Reflexes, Diehard, and Power attack (the last would not be used vs fighter). SR: 21, and we can share spells. Greater magic fang is always up (lesser extended) for +1 on all attacks. For what it's worth if you are evil I have a holy amulet of mighty fist.
Vs fighter: level 1 I pray for init jump and try to daze round 1, grease round 2 while monster eats you. This does not bode well for summoner.
At 5 I'll drop haste on us if I get the jump and move to the far back. His hp are augmented by mine, thanks to the lifelink/diehard combo. Assuming you don't get the jump and lock me up, I will stay back, with invis on 2nd round, and if I care grease you down or enlarge my eidilon. Most fighters should lose here. Vs Mage tactics are similar, with evolution surge to get the eidilon seeing you (tremorsense) if you somehow are already flying.
At 11 the fighter would take an AOO to get to me round 1 and would have to avoid grab. If I open I'll move up and switch places with the eidilon so it can full attack, subsequently improv invisibg and hasting us. The trips and grab should keep you easy to manage.
Vs Mage we'd be in a Black Tentacles war, but the Eidilon can ignore and I can attempt to spell-like out. I'd try to get the eidilon to lock up the fight quickly with maneuvers, and rely on his resistance to at least making casting on him difficult.
wraithstrike, 22 minutes ago
You are assuming the summoner is close enough to kick the eidolon, or he isn't locked down with black tentacles. :). Why is the wizard taking damage? You can probably make a flying eidolon, but that is less damage. Every option the Eidolon wants takes away from his direct offense and defense. He can be a combat monster or be decent against several things, but even with the evolutions he can't do both.
edit: I just noticed the level 20 comment. At 20 the eidolon better win initiative, and pray that it ends the fight. If not then timestop + gate + random whatever sends him and the summoner packing.
Summoner (Ready action dispel magic when the wizard casts)
Eilodon free to kill....wizard takes damage. Or ready action a hit doing a lot of damage while hes casting and see if he can get a spell out, either hit and/or in a grapple with a huge monster? Not sure why a wizard wouldnt be taking damage and losing his attacks each round?
Yep. I am assuming the summoner and Eilodon are in reach. Thats how they work. Why wouldnt the summoner be close when hes getting +4to ac and saves just by being close?
Despite both being in reach (within 20ft)with poss A.o.Op. The wizards now got a sleep and a black tentacles out and both successful before the summoner has had a turn?..lol...you do know theres two initiatives against one right, the probability doesnt look great?
Timestop and gate solves all, its a broken combo and I was waiting for it as its the only rabbit in a wizards hat that can help. But hes 20th level and thats why wizards die before they get there.
The fight would at 20th be two (summoner can be an Eilodon) huge, reaching neanderthal monstrosities to sit on him (grapple)or while a summoner dispels as the wizard tries to teleport out from certain death from 7 attacks a round (wizard hasnt buffed yet as well right?), let alone get out an offensive spell next round even if able, hes losing rounds trying to escape one foe while the other keeps firing?
Dont forget the summoner has spells too, greater invis, dispel, planar binding greater and these are scarring the sky as a wizard is dealing with a multi limbed monstrosity?
It boils down to initiative at higher levels and again, so you better hope the wizard wins against TWO initiatives.
I think this thread would be more fun with a scenario?
Lets say unbuffed, shoot out at 20ft at what ever level, no suprize. (it doesnt matter cause this summoners riding his Eilodon to slaughter town!..lol)
Any of the "summoner wont win" opposition wish to study up their toughest level they can make and let the summoner lovers know what level they feel safest with?
Also, it would be interesting to see which posters actually have and haven't played a summoner?
I guess its obvious "I have!"?
And magic items may confuse things as it presents something equally used by both classes, so bare knuckle and butt naked it. (besides a simple weapon or armor if need be)
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And magic items may confuse things as it presents something equally used by both classes, so bare knuckle and butt naked it. (besides a simple weapon or armor if need be)
That's not how it works. A melee class is far more dependant on magic items than a caster class is. All tests must be done based on WBL, otherwise you are screwing over anyone who isn't a full caster.
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My current primary is a Summoner, and I have the majority of a Summoner's optimization guide written up (which i may decide to finish one day :)). Given this particular scenario I could optimize more (SR vs fighter is wasted obviously, and the Amulet of Mighty Fist would be better non-holy); however, I was using a generic catch-all build (not damage optimized, though obviously high damage). The summoner in this scenario is the high-Cha half elf flavor with extra evolution points, built to chill and buff in background (and throw the occasional net).
And magic items may confuse things as it presents something equally used by both classes, so bare knuckle and butt naked it. (besides a simple weapon or armor if need be)That's not how it works. A melee class is far more dependant on magic items than a caster class is. All tests must be done based on WBL, otherwise you are screwing over anyone who isn't a full caster.
True, but do note theres a fighter and a wizard (cruel to exclude when people are passionate on them) being recommended to oppose a summoner, so there wouldnt be as much unfair biase? Besides with weapona and armor available it sounded fairer and the fighter had his base necessities?
Otherwize would you entertain the classes disputes resolution being:"I take a full attack and do 100hp damage!"
"Oh yeah! Well Ill now use my ring of three wishes!"
So to overcome this inevitable arguementative flaw, would you have any preferred suggestions?
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I'd like to clad the eidolon in Celestial Armor via barding. My nearest guess is that it'd be chain mail x 8 (only found med x2 and large x4 so...) for the size/cost of the armor, and then add the difference to celestial armor's normal cost (i.e. 7x chain mails cost)
An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner’s connection to the eidolon.
You'll have to stick with Mage Armor or Bracers of Armor. Sorry.
True, but do note theres a fighter and a wizard (cruel to exclude when people are passionate on them) being recommended to oppose a summoner, so there wouldnt be as much unfair biase? Besides with weapona and armor available it sounded fairer and the fighter had his base necessities?
Otherwize would you entertain the classes disputes resolution being:
"I take a full attack and do 100hp damage!"
"Oh yeah! Well Ill now use my ring of three wishes!"
So to overcome this inevitable arguementative flaw, would you have any preferred suggestions?
A fighter 20 vs a Summoner 20 can be a good fight...but...I doubt that one divination school wizard lvl 20 will lose for a summoner or whatever...
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a level 20 divination wizard should win all fights, since battle at level 20 usually is an init roll (on paper anyway, I've played level 20 exactly 0 times). The fighter can at least roll a 1 and miss; and everyone should have magic items that make them "silly defensive". Level 20 fights are ALWAYS dumb :).
I propose level 6; fighter just got 2nd attack, Eidilon can't effectively grab, magic items are pretty basic. Also no level 3 spells (tentacles) for summoner. It basically gives each a fair amount of their power.
The fighter will be a bow fighter; able to shoot without AOOs. He should be:
+6 (BAB) +6 (Dex with +2 item) +1 (Fighter) +1 (Point Blank) +1 (weapon focus) -2 (Deadly Aim) -2 Rapid Shot.
Feats: precise, rapid, PBS, deadly aim, weapon spec, multishot, "shoot in combat without AOO" (forgot name). +1 composite 14 str shocking bow.
+12/ +12 (rapid) / +12 (multi) / +7 (iterTive)
Damage per hit: d8 + d6 +9, average 17.
Init bonus +8, if he goes first he plans to wipe the summoner out of existence (3 hits should do it easily, 2 potentially).
And magic items may confuse things as it presents something equally used by both classes, so bare knuckle and butt naked it. (besides a simple weapon or armor if need be)
Incorrect. The Summoner has special rules regarding magic items, so they absolutely MUST be simulated, because it's a part of the class balance.
My Apologies for getting Wraith riled up. We all know that a PC Casters (and by extension *smart* NPC Casters) are King, especially starting around 8th, and inarguably past 12th. My off hand comment was not meant to detract from the discussion: Fighter v. Eidolon.
Please enjoy the discussion :)
GNOME
Aw man. You got me in trouble :)
I am currently playing a Summoner and LOVE it. I am also playing a invulnerable rager barbarian.
At level 20 vs a Eidolon(and summoner) I bet my Barbarian would win.
I would have DR 13/- at 20 which would GREATLY reduce all of the Eidolon damage and if I wanted to I would just spring attack till dead, or use acrobatics to avoid the AoO's when closing.
I do agree though with a fighter it comes to initiative.
Just my 2c
-Venom
I think youll need too.....
1) A magically buffed fighter in an anti magic field?
2) You dont have buff spells, youll need someone else. Even if he had potions, try drinking while attacked while the summoner buffs in unison?
2) A sole fighter can change his combat tactics round from round but TWO creatures with spell casting and all the extras wont as much?
3) Fighters have a +5 Bab on Eilodon at 20th did you include the Eilodon is now huge has +16 str with 15-20ft reach and many more attacks?...clankers wont even get close to him before hes had a few wacks and pushed back to where he started or grappled and what use are your shiny first pref weapons now?
4) Youd prefer at 20th roughly 20 feats as a fighter, as apposed to 26 evolutions (trip, reach, push, abil increase, grapple, poison etc etc) plus 8 feats, plus summoners 10 feats...or why not turn your summoner into another Eilodon and get double the above..bit unfair hey?
Did I miss anything?
Honestly, you sound a fighter lover...as was I till I saw the light!
The class is broken in the right hands.
1) Firstly, 20 feats = 20 feats. A 26 point evolution pool =/= 26 evolutions. Most of the more impressive evolutions require more evolution points.
2) Fighters have upwards to 5 more HD than eidolons, and a melee bruiser fighter can comfortably support a +10 strength modifier by 20th level without optimization, granting a similar CMB and CMD, and can be larger thanks to spells that don't affect the eidolon due to type or restriction (including enlarge person and the polymorph line of spells).
3) The fighter doesn't risk being dismissed in the middle of combat by spells such as dismissal or banishment, which both enemies and allies may need to toss around from time to time; which can complicate things.
4) The eidolon cannot be disguised, or concealed using methods other than invisibility. In many campaigns (including several I run), this could be a problem in many scenarios.
5) Unlike the eidolon, the fighter doesn't fight as well in an antimagic field but he doesn't go away either. The eidolon simply winks out in an anttimagic field just like any normal summoned creature.
Antimagic Field: "Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature."
Eidolon: "Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures."
So while the fighter might shrink, lose 5 points of attack/damage off his +5 weapon, he's still at least there to contribute. The eidolon isn't, so I'd rather have the guy who could still try to grapple or harass the caster with his DC 40 CMD, rather than being unable to touch him due to a 6th level spell.
6) The eidolon can grab extra attacks easily enough, by spending plenty of evolution points on them. We can probably grab an absolutely heinous number of attacks. We'll begin with bipeds 'cause they get 2 claws free, spend 1 point for 2 more claws (on their legs?) (1 point), spend another point for a bite attack (1 point), and we grab more limbs (2 points) to grab another pair of claws (1 point), rend (2 points), make him huge (10 points), and we have 9 points left over to get abilities to keep the eidolon alive or to further optimize damage. You should probably use these points for improved natural armor and stuff to avoid your eidolon from dying a lot. You'll also need to take the Reach evolution for every natural attack you want to have reach, so have fun with that.
So our final eidolon attack routine looks like this: +29/+29/+29/+29/+29/+29/+29 counting his +15 BAB, a -2 penalty for size, and a +16 strength modifier. Each claw deals 1d8+16 damage or about 20.5 average or 143.5 if all hit. Against an AC 40 opponent, he will hit about 50% of the time, making the eidolon's average damage roughly 71.5 per round, assuming he hits with 1/2 of his attacks each round (with some rounds landing 4, some rounds landing 3). He can take the evolution to bypass DR/Magic, but still gets hosed by DR/Silver, Adamantine, Cold Iron, Bludgeoning, or an alignment that isn't opposed to his. You could try to bypass this with about 7 casting of Greater Magic Fang, perhaps.
Our fighter who only begins with a 30 strength (15 base, +5 level, +6 item, +4 tome or wish), and has the following attack routine: +37/+37/+33/+27/+22 with full power attack and a +5 weapon and a haste effect (such as from boots of speed or normal buffing, or a speed weapon). While enlarged he has reach and a further +2 to strength (offset by his -1 hit), and his glaive deals 2d8+47 points of damage per hit or 56 damage per hit or 280 damage if all hit. Against an AC 40 opponent, he hits 85% of the time with his main attacks, 65% of the time with his third, 45% with his fourth, and a 15% chance with his last attack. He should deal roughly 165.2 damage per round.
Our fighter here ignores almost all forms of damage reduction with his weapon (which isn't even an optimized weapon, it merely must be a +5 weapon), and while I didn't factor critical hits in the fighter auto-confirms criticals with a x4 damage multiplier (so he has around a 10% chance to deal around 224 damage per swing).
Likewise, while our fighter isn't specialized in archery, we could totally slap a +5 composite longbow (+10 strength) on our fighter, have a +4 to hit and damage, and Deadly Aim, to get serious damage output at great distances to deal with flying enemies or enemies at great distances, without actually specializing. The eidolon will definitely need to close into melee to get his hits in.
And the fighter still has 14 feats left to spend (all I listed him with was power attack, weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater focus, greater specialization, and deadly aim) on other things (such as buffing his saves, upping his grapple, dodge/mobility, lunge, point blank shot, rapid shot, precise shot, critical feats, maybe the dazzling display through deadly-stroke line).
7) Our fighter has a fairly solid defense against most will saves since he gets a +5 vs fear effects and a casting of protection from evil will keep him warded for hours on end (or he could just get protection from evil permanently added to his armor).
8) Finally, our fighter can change sizes easily. The eidolon to be fully optimized must be huge. Without this optimization, the eidolon's damage and advantages when compared to the fighter are rapidly diminished. However, this also creates tactical problems when you don't have the space to deal with such things (since the majority of encounters don't take place in an open desert). It makes it more difficult to get an effective opening charge, or to move! You may be forced to squeeze (taking a -4 to hit/AC among other things) while in tight places or cannot fit at all.
In other words, his great size is one of his great weaknesses as well.
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Is this sufficient?
And magic items may confuse things as it presents something equally used by both classes, so bare knuckle and butt naked it. (besides a simple weapon or armor if need be)
Also, this is stupid. According to the rules, characters have access to magic weapons and equipment based on level. A fighter is entitled to his full WBL, while a summoner is entitled to his (but may have to split with his eidolon).
I think youll need too.....
1) A magically buffed fighter in an anti magic field?
2) You dont have buff spells, youll need someone else. Even if he had potions, try drinking while attacked while the summoner buffs in unison?
2) A sole fighter can change his combat tactics round from round but TWO creatures with spell casting and all the extras wont as much?
3) Fighters have a +5 Bab on Eilodon at 20th did you include the Eilodon is now huge has +16 str with 15-20ft reach and many more attacks?...clankers wont even get close to him before hes had a few wacks and pushed back to where he started or grappled and what use are your shiny first pref weapons now?
4) Youd prefer at 20th roughly 20 feats as a fighter, as apposed to 26 evolutions (trip, reach, push, abil increase, grapple, poison etc etc) plus 8 feats, plus summoners 10 feats...or why not turn your summoner into another Eilodon and get double the above..bit unfair hey?
Did I miss anything?
Honestly, you sound a fighter lover...as was I till I saw the light!
The class is broken in the right hands.
1) Firstly, 20 feats = 20 feats. A 26 point evolution pool =/= 26 evolutions. Most of the more impressive evolutions require more evolution points.
1b Fighter 20 feats vrs 16 feats and 26 evol points+2 (basic feat, trip grab, poison, ebergy attack)= summoner 39 = clanker death
2) Fighters have upwards to 5 more HD than eidolons, and a melee bruiser fighter can comfortably support a +10 strength modifier by 20th level without optimization, granting a similar CMB and CMD, and can be larger thanks to spells that don't affect the eidolon due to type or restriction (including enlarge person and the polymorph line of spells).
2a No spells, no support...your not a wizard, your a fighter. The summoner has all the spells you want though, maybe if you asked him reeeeal nicely= clanker death
2 b Fighter = 18 str + 5 progression= 23 str
Eilodon base Str= 16 +11 advancement + 16 str large= 43 str= Clanker death
2 c Fighter CMb Base 20 + 6(str)= 26
Eilodon CMB base 15 + 16 (str)+ 8(size)= 39= claker death3) The fighter doesn't risk being dismissed in the middle of combat by spells such as dismissal or banishment, which both enemies and allies may need to toss around from time to time; which can complicate things.
3a Stop asking for help from others all the time. I know you need it but its a mono a mono fight? Eilodon banished? Planar gate greater? Turn into the Eilodon himself. Summon city = Clanker death 9without help)
4) The eidolon cannot be disguised, or concealed using methods other than invisibility. In many campaigns (including several I run), this could be a problem in many scenarios.
4a Disguised? what you trying to hide from the summoner now? Why hide your Eilodon when your have greater invis or just summon as a standard action?
The class is broken in the right hands. Go one, feeeel the power!
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I would like to pit a Summoner without his eidolon against a fighter. Have the Summoner fly around invisible. How many waves of summon monster can the fighter take before he falls. Sure he can kill alot of the monsters, but at that level you can effectively summon hundreds of creatures. Using your SLA and your spells at the same time.
Would be a fun Tournament to throw at some players.
-Venom