Field Test #4: Team Up with an Envoy!

Yesss! Love envoys, looking forward to this read.

The new envoy is so fun, glad you're all getting a taste of what's to come!

Get 'em!

Before anyone asks: I am happy to report that the tireless volunteers on the PF2e system dev team already have a Foundry module ready for your playtesting convenience! https://foundryvtt.com/packages/starfinder-field-test-for-pf2e

Get 'em!

Saw it coming!

It is clearly a Warlord and an investigator in a trenchcoat

/s

Nailed it. Thanks for the excellent work team.

Aw yeah. I'm so looking forward to rewarding myself with reading this tonight.

How are you supposed to attack an enemy with a MAP without some sort of AOO?

Also, here's my opinion on reactions they are fine and a lot of classes in Pathfinder 2e will often start off with either two to three reactions depending on your choices. Very often reactions will have non overlapping triggers. For example my Kingmaker thaumaturge has the weapon implement and is multiclassed champion with Glimpse of Mercy. So she has options on what to do every round depending on the enemies turns.

I will say if you are going to make the class reaction heavy maybe just maybe give the class the prototypical "you get an extra reaction for Envoy abilities" feat for free instead of making it a feat. Its more a necessity on this class and so yeah it should be a feature.

EDIT:
The only other thing I noticed is that Get Em' doesn't stack with the enemy being Off Guard as both are circumstance penalties to AC. Maybe make it a status?

EDIT;
Also, if it is going to be reaction heavy might as well give them one to start off with.

How are you supposed to attack an enemy with a MAP without some sort of AOO?

I was about to question the same thing. I'm trying to read again to be sure i'm not missing anything.

MadScientistWorking wrote:

How are you supposed to attack an enemy with a MAP without some sort of AOO?

I was about to question the same thing. I'm trying to read again to be sure i'm not missing anything.

Its worded a bit odd but its supposed to be hit with an attack that has MAP.

MadScientistWorking wrote:

How are you supposed to attack an enemy with a MAP without some sort of AOO?

I was about to question the same thing. I'm trying to read again to be sure i'm not missing anything.

The phrasing of that Guns Blazing ability is a bit awkward. The phrase "that has a multiple attack penalty" is referring to your ranged Strike, not to the enemy.

"Make a ranged Strike that has a multiple attack penalty against an enemy" probably makes more sense!

This would allow you to do some cool things, like use "Get in There!" then Strike twice and still grant the Lead by Example benefit.

So "Saw it Coming" is basically, when you meet a shady character in a seedy cantina and they suddenly decide to attack you, you are more likely to shoot them first?

I see what you did there...

Seamless integration of flavor and mechanics, self-explanatory enough for a beginner, and with enough variety and tactical finesse to keep a master's interest. Definitely my favorite class so far.

Definitely looks interesting. Would love to see an Intimidation-based Leadership style, that utilizes quips and taunts to depower enemies, akin to the Dispiriting Taunt ability from 1E.

Perhaps along the lines of:
Leadership Skill: Intimidation

Acts of Leadership: Demoralize, or something like making a melee strike against that has a Multi-attack penalty against an enemy, or something similar.

and Perhaps a feat like Quick Coercion, Intimidating Glare, or something from Starfinder 2E as the Leadership Perk

I got to play an Envoy and a Mystic at Owlcon this year since Thurston was there running the SF2e Demo. They were BOTH great! Those were LITERALLY my first 2 games of Starfinder ever. I'm looking forward to the playtest rulebook.

Romão98 wrote:

MadScientistWorking wrote:

How are you supposed to attack an enemy with a MAP without some sort of AOO?

I was about to question the same thing. I'm trying to read again to be sure i'm not missing anything.

The phrasing of that Guns Blazing ability is a bit awkward. The phrase "that has a multiple attack penalty" is referring to your ranged Strike, not to the enemy.

"Make a ranged Strike that has a multiple attack penalty against an enemy" probably makes more sense!

This would allow you to do some cool things, like use "Get in There!" then Strike twice and still grant the Lead by Example benefit.

Thanks for the response. That's a pretty cool trigger for the ability.

I really like what I'm seeing here. I like that the Directives and Lead by Example encourage more active participation in the fight alongside buffing your allies.

Maybe it's because I just saw the new Dune but a Religion-based leadership style would be very cool. Admittedly, I'm not sure what the Acts of Leadership could be outside of casting a divine spell from an archetype...

I really like what I'm seeing here. I like that the Directives and Lead by Example encourage more active participation in the fight alongside buffing your allies.

Maybe it's because I just saw the new Dune but a Religion-based leadership style would be very cool. Admittedly, I'm not sure what the Acts of Leadership could be outside of casting a divine spell from an archetype...

This might be a bit too GM dependent but maybe act within the edicts of your deity?

Computers has skill feat!

Leadership Skill (1st) Computers

Leadership Perk (1st) You gain Digital Diversion as a bonus feat.
Acts of Leadership (6th) Create a Diversion using Computers, Recall Knowledge

Wouldn't assurance (stealth) be rarely useful because it's vs enemies scaling perception?

All right, let's figure out what Mr. Sir my undead deadly gameshow host looks like at 5th level.

Level 5 Human Borai Icon Envoy (Look, I'm just assuming we're getting an Icon background.)
Charisma primary, Dexterity secondary; Int and Con tertiary

Leadership Style: In the Spotlight

Skills: Performance, Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidation, Computers, Crafting, Thievery, Medicine, Society, Acrobatics, Nature

1st: Quip (Very in keeping with his attitude, and I'd like to think he does it in the show when somebody gets hit by one of the show's traps, with a little GM indulgence)
2nd: Suppressing Insults (Ups the stakes for his barbs)
4th: Search High and Low (for trap spotting)

I'd definitely want to take another directive at 6th, since Spotlight almost entirely relies on that and Search High and Low will come up in combat maybe once or twice in a campaign.

Diplomacy *can* be swapped out since Impressive Performance allows using Performance on impressions at least and he'll have a reason to focus on Intimidate, but I think it'd feel off for him to not have Diplomacy. Really wish we could drop Thievery for disarming traps, though- I'm investing in Computers, Crafting, *and* Thievery all to cover one theme. It's seriously cutting into his ability to make the knowledge checks that a deadly trivia gameshow host should be able to, but I can always rely on the flexible skill feat to get a maxed out lore for the day on the relevant topic. If we're running Free Archetype, it's gonna be a very difficult choice between a traps-based archetype and something like Loremaster.

I really appreciate that the class can focus on being oppressive to an enemy or enemies, rather than just being a cheerleader. Because Demoralize only works once per enemy, I can just keep rotating my Get 'Em target, and keep trying to hit enemies with that double debuff. I do wonder if that's investing too heavily in a skill that can only be used within thirty feet, though...

I really like take em alive! Many times I wish I could better support the team being nonlethal

Very cool class!

I like how the classes are turning SF2 in a different felling from just a Pathfinder 2 in space. Conceptually the classes are giving me way more a felling of a Guardians of the Galaxy (Envoy remembers Star-Lord) instead of something like a Lord of the Rings in Space and this looks pretty cool.

About the Envoy class I liked the concept but I still think it's laking of something for itself in combat. I understand that the concept is to help your allies but I still missing something.

I liked the large number of available reactions options. I honestly if you designers want IMO you can put even more. I also like how efficient the action economy of the class is. It's action economy remembers classes like bards and kineticists where you have full use for your 3 action in all times and many feats compress actions making even more efficient over time. Most reactions are cool and pretty useful in many different situations.

I also love the feats names. They are super fun. I think that all you had a funniest time naming them!

About the Envoy class I liked the concept but I still think it's laking of something for itself in combat. I understand that the concept is to help your allies but I still missing something.

Well, you've got an action to give an enemy -1 AC and give yourself a little bonus damage. It's kind of a light version of Operative's aim action, but then you share it with your teammates. So long as you're willing to look at the buffs you give yourself as buffs (instead of ignoring them because your allies get them too), then you're getting something.

But yeah, it's definitely more focused on team play than personal combat tricks.

Envoy is one of my favorite classes among the original Starfinder options. This rendition of it looks absolutely spectacular.

And yes, I can also see the nods to Investigator in there. But it is distinct enough of a class that it isn't going to be a problem. I certainly wouldn't rebuild this Investigator character as an Envoy.

As for reactions, I think having plenty is a good thing. As long as there are plenty of non-reaction feats to choose from, having a ton of reactions available to choose when building is great.

Having a good sized handful of reactions available to the character once it is built is also a nice thing to have. That reaction is a valuable resource - it is good to be able to use it. And since they have very specific triggers that often involve things that the character has no control over, having multiple of them only increases the chances that at least one of them will trigger.

For example, one of the common build strategies and battle tactics with Good aligned (back when that was a thing) Champion is to pick the Reactive Strike feat and then during combat Stride to an enemy, Strike, and Raise Shield (not necessarily in that order). Because that leaves the enemy with three bad options:

1) Attack the Champion - which does very little against their stellar AC especially after ↺ Shield Block. "Attack the Tank" sounds like the most terrible combat tactics possible.
2) Attack a neighboring ally of the Champion - which is actively punished by the ↺ Champion Reaction.
3) Stride away and attack someone not near the Champion - which costs an action and gets punished with ↺ Reactive Strike.

Sure, the Champion can generally only do one of those three each round. But having all of them on the character practically guarantees that one of them will be available and useful.

Whenever i look at something like this, I think "how can I best stat out the Leverage crew". I'm not so sure about Parker; 1E Operative worked well for a "thief", but that might or might not hold in 2E. Aside from her, it's... pretty much an all-Envoy team, which makes sense as the cast is all grifters. I'd been thinking Hardison might be a Technomancer or a Mechanic, but then I saw the "do computer stuff" leadership style and now I'm not so sure.
The biggest problem I'm having is that this is a combat-focused game, while Leverage is very much NOT a combat-focused show; but that's something I encounter with a lot of systems.

I'll want to get back to this later, some time when I'm more coherent, and hopefully there'll be enough discussion about things that I can tap into the expertise of everyone else wrt the mechanics.

YuriP wrote:

About the Envoy class I liked the concept but I still think it's laking of something for itself in combat. I understand that the concept is to help your allies but I still missing something.

Well, you've got an action to give an enemy -1 AC and give yourself a little bonus damage. It's kind of a light version of Operative's aim action, but then you share it with your teammates. So long as you're willing to look at the buffs you give yourself as buffs (instead of ignoring them because your allies get them too), then you're getting something.

But yeah, it's definitely more focused on team play than personal combat tricks.

-1 as circunstante penalty to AC is interesting while the target still not off-guard. It's not bad once you can do this at distance without checks and benefiting you and all your allies but it's not a significant self-boost specially if the target is already off-guard to you due some other reason.

Waite, what is this I see? No explosion, no Lazor beams overhead, not serving field rations, what could go wrong?

I highly suspect this is a stealth field test for kitchen glitch gremlins or a hint there will be a food fight in the playtest.

I like the class overall, though 2 things kind of bug me. First, I feel like Size Up needs a little bit more of... something at its base function(the feats can make it way more interesting, but I don't think it should need that). I first idea is some way to combine it with directives and/or the leadership styles, but really it could be anything.

And the second thing is the key attribute. Should envoy be key CHA? Probably, but then why doesn't it use it in a cool way in battle. As is, if you ignored cha, it doesn't feel like you would even be losing much more then most other martials(you even can get bonuses to make up for it). Even the leadership styles look like they were built to give you a extra choice for key abilities.

QuidEst wrote:

YuriP wrote:

About the Envoy class I liked the concept but I still think it's laking of something for itself in combat. I understand that the concept is to help your allies but I still missing something.

Well, you've got an action to give an enemy -1 AC and give yourself a little bonus damage. It's kind of a light version of Operative's aim action, but then you share it with your teammates. So long as you're willing to look at the buffs you give yourself as buffs (instead of ignoring them because your allies get them too), then you're getting something.

But yeah, it's definitely more focused on team play than personal combat tricks.

-1 as circunstante penalty to AC is interesting while the target still not off-guard. It's not bad once you can do this at distance without checks and benefiting you and all your allies but it's not a significant self-boost specially if the target is already off-guard to you due some other reason.

I did like the idea of Making Get 'Em provide a circumstance ''bonus'' to attacks against the target though

Interesting

I feel like Size Up needs a little bit more of... something at its base function

Surprisingly, my biggest problem with Size Up (from just reading through it briefly) is the game term name of 'asset'.

An asset is something that is beneficial to you. "Why didn't you list that among our assets in the first place?"

Using 'asset' as a designation for a particular enemy just sounds really strange. I understand that 'prey' is already taken. And 'mark' is also to an extent (a mechanic from a different game system that will not be named).

'Quarry' is available. Though people may initially think of a place to mine rocks from.

'Objective' is somewhat also available. At least when talking about an Envoy's Objective it will not likely be confused with the objective of an encounter or campaign.

You could also call them your Mark or your Target, though target is kind of broad and Mark may be used for the operative.

YuriP wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

YuriP wrote:

About the Envoy class I liked the concept but I still think it's laking of something for itself in combat. I understand that the concept is to help your allies but I still missing something.

Well, you've got an action to give an enemy -1 AC and give yourself a little bonus damage. It's kind of a light version of Operative's aim action, but then you share it with your teammates. So long as you're willing to look at the buffs you give yourself as buffs (instead of ignoring them because your allies get them too), then you're getting something.

But yeah, it's definitely more focused on team play than personal combat tricks.

-1 as circunstante penalty to AC is interesting while the target still not off-guard. It's not bad once you can do this at distance without checks and benefiting you and all your allies but it's not a significant self-boost specially if the target is already off-guard to you due some other reason.

I did like the idea of Making Get 'Em provide a circumstance ''bonus'' to attacks against the target though

Solves the problem but still look like a nerfed version of Courageous Anthem that only works vs a single target. Except that it may combo with some state bonus if the party have some spell like Bless.

Oh I love that one of the envoy leadership styles gives you medium armor, really helps it sell a military commander-style envoy, at least to my mind.

I'm not sure how I feel about the leadership styles. One part of me likes how light each one is, mechanics-wise; makes it way easier to make more later without having to worry a huge amount, and what you get does sell their flavor pretty well. Another part of me wouldn't mind seeing them get a bit more oomph to differentiate them.

I'm liking the Envoy as it is. I agree, it would be nice if "Get 'em" didn't overlap with flat-footed, but I like that it's not a bonus, as that lets others stack bonuses ontop of the penalty you secured.

And I just had an idea for an Envoy that... it's stupid, but I want to try it. they're Infosphere famous. They are a famous Influencer who is constantly live-streaming all the team's fights and investigations. and has a um... Matreon account set up to fund their "next project" (gear upgrade).

Further, I like someone's idea of an intimidation based leader, because that is a common trope. The tough gruff leader who despite being very aggro is well loved and respected by their people. Call that Leadership style "The Drill Instructor". For a good example, see the character Roy Kent from Ted Lasso.

The overlap with flat-footed isn't even it for me. It's less of an issue with ranged being the norm. I don't think many parties are going to flank that much.

For me it's that Get 'em is basically a weaker version of Courageous Anthem and the Lead by Example effect conflicts with almost literally every feat ever that provides extra damage. And the Bard is a full caster on top of that. Especially at the early levels, you're really gonna notice that the Bard can do basically everything you do in combat - including use the same weapons with the same bonus as you - and then they can essentially end a fight with runic weapon on top of that.

The Envoy seems way more fun to actually play after a few levels, though, even if the Bard is waaaay stronger.

Would runic weapons affect most weapons? Didn't they specify that tech weapons wouldn't work with runes.

even if the Bard is waaaay stronger.

I will mention that most of the community thinks that Bard is a bit overtuned. Mostly because of Courageous Anthem.

So I don't expect any classes to be created that match its power level. Certainly none that exceed it.

You could also call them your Mark or your Target, though target is kind of broad and Mark may be used for the operative.

How about calling them your Focus?

Karmagator wrote:

even if the Bard is waaaay stronger.

I will mention that most of the community thinks that Bard is a bit overtuned. Mostly because of Courageous Anthem.

So I don't expect any classes to be created that match its power level. Certainly none that exceed it.

Well, you come across the problem that if one class is by and large just a worse version of a different class, why play the worse class. The envoy needs to be better in some way than the bard (and worse in others) for it to be played

Well, you come across the problem that if one class is by and large just a worse version of a different class, why play the worse class. The envoy needs to be better in some way than the bard (and worse in others) for it to be played

Sure.

But so far, the only comparison that people on this thread are making between Envoy and Bard is that Envoy's Get 'Em looks like a nerfed version of Courageous Anthem and then Bard gets to be a full spellcaster on top of that.

No mention of anything else that Envoy can do better than a Bard does.

So I'll stand by my previous statement. I don't expect anything of any class to be the equal of Courageous Anthem. And certainly not better than it.

it would appear that the Envoy will be able to give tons of at will buffs to allies, I liked "Don't you die on me". Especially since It was just a free reduction of the Dying value, and if they were at dying 1, there is no wounded value, I have to image that's kind of strong.

Perpdepog wrote:

You could also call them your Mark or your Target, though target is kind of broad and Mark may be used for the operative.

How about calling them your Focus?

Maybe your level, rank, or feat.

Would runic weapons affect most weapons? Didn't they specify that tech weapons wouldn't work with runes.

Correct, anything with without the archaic trait doesn't allow runes. But I'm pretty sure we'll get an equivalent.

I will mention that most of the community thinks that Bard is a bit overtuned. Mostly because of Courageous Anthem.

So I don't expect any classes to be created that match its power level. Certainly none that exceed it.

I highly doubt that is the case and even if it was, the Bard was strictly buffed during the Remaster. So Paizo certainly don't agree with that assessment.

Loving this so far! The feel of this class is very much for me, love playing supporting leadership-type characters!

I can't wait to see more directives, just the couple that we saw were really fun! Playtest can't come soon enough!

The playtest cannot release soon enough. I am really stoked for this!

Things I notice:

- From the Front is clearly intended as a melee build (at least in part). The fact that Envoys get a melee build is cool, and I approve.

- In the Spotlight has a pretty sweet turn setup for "issue two directives and then follow one of them, gaining the lead by example bonus on both." That's definitely going to be an overall build to watch.

- Through Desperate Times implies an interesting healer/buffer build, but I'm not sure how easy it's going to be to leverage, given the limits on usage of Battle Medicine. I guess part of it is going to be the question of how comfortable you are with administering healing consumables. Might be worth trying to archetype into the local equivalent of chirurgeon alchemist

There's clearly the beginnings of an intimidate build there, but it's going to need more pieces than are immediately visible for it to really sing. Still, "My demoralize comes with a side order of suppress" is the sort of thing that makes certain bits of me perk up and take notice. It's also interesting to see that "suppress" is showing up on more than just the Soldier.

This is a class I've been looking forward to. I really like the directive system, but the Envoy's class features make it feel like a worse rogue or investigator.