It is not a satisfying answer, but I think it is probably best to not have static rules-based answers about how people in world generally understand magic, because that creates a lot of narrative restrictions that have to be consistently followed in many different contexts.
THIS. The game engine is not the in-universe physics engine that Golarian runs on. It is a useful starting point (gods know I've written a lot using mechanics as starting points), but adhering too closely to mechanics as simulation robs you of narratives.
Kerkamoth, Otomens, and Valmallos are not reprinted here. Valmallos I kinda get, since he's an inevitable and those...kinda aren't a thing anymore. The other two are weird, though.
The gods Thremyr and Vavaalrav list their Divine Skill as Religion, which...doesn't really make sense. Most of the time that a deity's Divine Skill is granted to a creature they already are trained in Religion (see clerics and champions). They are literally the only two deities that have Religion as a Divine Skill.
Those three are all inevitables, which is why they were quietly phased out (Or in Otolmens's case, omitted from the in memoriam section).
The skills seem like an oversight that needs addressing. While you can get a deity's divine skill via Raised by Belief too, that's still just awkward for clerics and champions.
Edit:Themyr's divine skill is athletics in Divine Mysteries, actually, so that's just an error. They did give Vavaalrav Religion, so that's "correct" at least.
Clerics and Champions aren't the only ones who can take the background though, so it's not really an issue? They just choose a different skill like any other background.
Raised by Belief isn't the issue. A Cleric/champion receives training in Religion and their deity's skill... Which for Vavaalrav is also religion. This probably still falls under the category of a class making you trained in a skill you're already trained in (Instead pick another skill of your choice), but it's a weird case and as far as I can tell unprecedented. Giving Vavaalrav's followers Society (learning about funeral traditions and keeping the memory of those who have died) or crafting (building mausoleums and other graveyard edifices) would make things easier.
Eh, right. Fair point, although pick a different skill does resolve it easily.
Kerkamoth, Otomens, and Valmallos are not reprinted here. Valmallos I kinda get, since he's an inevitable and those...kinda aren't a thing anymore. The other two are weird, though.
The gods Thremyr and Vavaalrav list their Divine Skill as Religion, which...doesn't really make sense. Most of the time that a deity's Divine Skill is granted to a creature they already are trained in Religion (see clerics and champions). They are literally the only two deities that have Religion as a Divine Skill.
Those three are all inevitables, which is why they were quietly phased out (Or in Otolmens's case, omitted from the in memoriam section).
The skills seem like an oversight that needs addressing. While you can get a deity's divine skill via Raised by Belief, that's still just awkward for clerics and champions.
Edit:Themyr's divine skill is athletics in Divine Mysteries, actually, so that's just an error. They did give Vavaalrav Religion, so that's "correct" at least.
Clerics and Champions aren't the only ones who can take the background though, so it's not really an issue? They just choose a different skill like any other background.
It's nice to see Set get the option for Holy and Unholy and some much kinder anathema. I know one of my players was quite sad to see the deity all evil, but it seems he got a more neutral take on his character now!
Him and Sobek. I was surprised they could have have holy priests
To be fair, Sobek was CN in 1e. And ooooo, I hadn't noticed those changes to Set. I like that much better than what we had before!
So I know I did this when Gods and Mysteries came out, but I'm doing it again... I really, really want a book that gives everyone in the Other Gods section (and all the new dieties in the Lost Omens books) the full 4-page spread the Core 20 got. Or at least book that does that for the dieties who weren't in Inner Sea Faiths and Faiths of Golarion. While things like realms and divine allies won't play a role in every game, they are very useful and they play a roll in a lot of my games :)
Or maybe we now get to see the more noble side of Set, being forced to take the mantle of leadership in a way he never expected and reckon with the new responsibility!
While I'm the last person in the world to be objective about that, and have enjoyed Set-the-villain in the first Conan movie, Marvel comics, Vampire the Masquerade or Judges Guild's Dark Tower adventure, (way, way) back in the day, I would also be intrigued by the idea of Set, the spear-carrying god who stood on the prow of Ra's sun barque and fought off Apep, Who Would Devour the Dawn, every single day, and was, for a time, a maat-observing god of warriors and storms, not just 'Set, who killed his brother. Twice.'
Seeing a version of Isis who seduced Thoth to learn the secrets of necromancy, created a path across Duat, between the worlds of the living and the death to bring her brother-husband back to life, and in so doing, released the curse of undeath upon the mortal world, would just be icing on the cake. :)
Not to plug an entirely different game on Paizo's forums, but this is exactly the type of thing Scion 2e is out there to explore. But yes, a more 3D protrayal of Set would be greatly welcomed.
Any meantion of where the dieties' divine realms are on the planes? Especially for those that didn't get a description in 1e?
Each of the core 20 get a sidebar on their realms in their four-page layouts and while I have not read all of the other god’s entries, it appears that they get a brief mention about their realms or demiplanes in each of their one-page entries.
Okay, that's something. Out of curiosity, where did Arazni's realm end up?
There were MANY times where I walked into my "local" gaming store (The Compleat Strategist in nYC) and saw that they had a book on the shelves and I was STILL waiting for mine to show up in my mailbox.
That sounds like your local game shop was breaking the street dates for merchandise they received. I’m assuming that Paizo has street dates for its books like any other publisher. That’s not really something to get upset with Paizo about.
Not this person but I'd easily believe it. Shipping is preeeeeetty slow, on average I get the physical books 1-1.5 weeks (one time, it was 2) after the street date, so local shops would already have it. I don't personally mind it because books end up being just shelf decoration, but if I wanted the physical book, going to the local store is more cost effective since you get to save up on the shipping fees (In fact, given that it feels really wasteful to be subscribed just to get the PDF early, I'm likely to stop subscribing, and just buy every PDF, and then choice buy books from my local shops if I really like a particular book for any reason)
Yeah, it’s a thing that is regular if you aren’t in the US. Heck, new products drop tomorrow and my subs still haven’t shipped, so there’s at least a decent chance I won’t have the PDFs when things go on sale.
It’s not world ending for me, but it can be an irritant and I see how other may get reasonably upset by it.
I appreciate your clarification, but I feel parts of that aren't really directly applicable? Real life Set might've been all that, sure, but here we're dealing with Pathfinder Set, and I'm not sure if we can apply much of the real life stuff to it. Maybe. It's weird with Earth existing in the world as well. And also because he's pretty undeveloped, likely because... Real mythology exists. But I digress. In Pathfinder, Set is the lord of the dark desert, and he's really into murder and the undead. Doesn't necessarily match with the real myths.
If that's the conclusion we come to, its one more case of cultural appropriation of a non-European mythological and religious tradition by a Western game - one that doesn't have many modern worshipers, but does have an active worship in neopagan communites. See also the implicit Orientalism that was already meantioned.
Yup. One of my favourite PFS characters is an awakened leopard ClawDancer who used to be a temple guardian for Sekhmet. Great character (mechanically and for flavour).
At least mechanically she gets no powers from Sekhmet so won't be affected by any changes PFS makes wrt dead Gods. But she'll be quite peeved if her beloved patron is no more.
If you're looking for some Golarion-specific equivalents: Adanye is a cat goddess who is a guardian of the home, while the three Old Sun Gods of Mzali (Chohar, Luhar, and Tlehar) are all solar lion deities; Tlehar in particular is a passionate lioness, which matches Sekhmet pretty well.
And that's really it for me - you can put sun-themed cat goddesses in your Fantasy Africa without it literally just being Bast and Sekhmet.
Oooooooo - the Mzali trinity in Osirion would be rad! Gimme, gimme, gimme!
Are we to believe that Set and Horus or others buddied up? Doesn't make much sense.
Um... yes? Set was one of Re's most ardent defenders against Apep? There is obviously the longstanding rivalry with Horus and the murder of Osiris, but he was still depicted as a leader and an extremely important God within Kemetic myth.
Perennial reminder that Seti I and II were both named after Set still conceived of as being divine manifestations of Horus on earth. This is one of the reasons I'm with keftiu - Kemetic mythology and culture is vastly more nuanced than what fantasy RPGs tend to portray and it really needs an RPG dedicated to IRL mythology to do it justice (games like Scion spring to mind). Set is vastly more than a one note evil deity and bluntly, the way Pathfinder has portrayed him bothers me more and more as time goes on.
I literally had the episode "The Maxnificent Seven" in the recommended media for writers on the project.
Heh, I don't know if its possible to share, but having freelanced for other RPG companies, I would love to see what those recommended media lists look like for Paizo projects. Always facinating to see how other people bake the cookie.
Is this book supposed to be a replacement for Gods & Magic?
The description of this product, as well as the comment directly above yours, suggests this book is not only a replacement for Gods & Magic, but also an expansion upon it.
Which really is the best of both worlds. And not the Starfinder kind.
Then maybe cool it on slinging insults at Paizo’s staff? I am 100% sure that’s what got your post deleted, not your criticism of their policy choices.
There was no such thing and it's a little hurtful that you would make such an insinuation. This thread's a super important topic with Paizo staff present; why would one do such a thing? But, please, do go ahead and jump to such conclusions if it makes you feel better about the world.
You said they were pathologically obsessed with with everything being on PFI. You may not see that as an insult. My immediate reaction reading that was that it crossed a line, despite agree that there should be space for free fan works to not be on Infinite.
If you are hurt and disagree with that interpretation, I cannot control that. But to me, that absolutely was an insult. And in light of that interpretation, entirely counter productive to your stated goal of convincing Paizo to change directions.
Got mine. Not reading deep into it because I’d actually like to try running this mostly unspoiled with Mythic GM Emulator, but took a quick glance at the backstory in the intro. I’m very pleased with how this is playing out and appreciate the irony in picking this adventure to run with MGME.
Thanks for taking the time to address all of these questions and concerns Mark, it must be draining.
I do have a question about how these changes interact with stock art with proper names. This is something that Infinite clearly allowed and still allows (see my art of Daclau-Sarh as an exemplar). No changes on that front.
However, if I wanted to create stock art of Aldinach, would the new Fan Content Policy clear the way for me to sell that new stock art with the proper name on DTRPG instead of Infinite? Would the answer be any different if it was on Patreon?
Mind sharing what's in the toolbox (including beasties)? And what's one of the highlights of this particular adventure?
At work, so can't nessacerily going into detail, but...
Spoiler:
Blight Bonded - elementals and beasts mutated by Ayrzul's Blight - three of them, two Lvl 10, one Lvl 13. The Creeping Cone is some of my new favourite monster art.
Leshies - A Lvl 11 troop and a new Lvl 10 leshy.
Gritblight - Lvl 13 earth elemental. Not going to say where they come from, but if you read between the lines you can probably partially figure it out.
Speaker in Spores - Sentinet fungal offgrowth. Saying anything more would be double spoilers. Lvl 13
Wood Elementals - Two new ones. A Lvl 12 hydra and a Lvl 14 spider. Love them.
I'm really hoping that the droon teasers in this are bread crumbs for a soon-to-be-announced southern garund lost omens book, its a region of the world we've really never explored in anything 1e or 2e. We know more about Akiton than we do about southern garund lol
I do think it's likely. When this book (or more specifically the premise of the book) got announced, it struck me as foreshadowing Droon. Flipping through the PDF though... I really think Iblydos is coming next. There is a lot of riffing of Ancient Greece, both ancestry and bestiary wise. And it also does some work setting up High Seas/Ruins of Azlant sequel with all the aquatic stuff too. Though I suspect that is a bit further on the horizon.
Pretty straight forwards... what books do you want to see after Starfinder 2e launches? Both as an interesting thing to talk about and in hopes that the 2e team sees your list and thinks its a good idea.
1) Planar book. I've heard this one was planned for 1e before the OGL/ORC debacle pushed it in favour of 2e. Starfinder is a very planar-heavy setting including FTL that takes you through planes other than the Drift, so it really feels like we need this one.
2) Pact World Species. Oppertunity to get plenty of new species into the game, as well as flesh out the core species that never got the spotlight in 1e.
3) Pact World Gods. Galatic Magic is a thing, but I would really love to have a deeper dive on the gods and faiths of Startfinder. Ideally something like Inner Sea Gods rather than LO Gods & Magic (which is great, but I love those in depth summaries)
4) Some sort of lore line analagous to the Lost Omens line for Pathfinder. We do have the Pact World and Near Space books, but it feels like there is a lot more to explore on every planet. Plus, it would give use an oppertunity to go deep on other planets and systems outside the big two.
5) Azlanti Star Empire. Think this one is pretty obvious. They are big recurring villans and we've seen some glimpses inside the Empire, but I'd love to see more.
Ooooo, had not seen this thread before, but there are some very cool insights here, thank you Erik!
I'd definitely be in the crowd of people who'd love to see Iblydos and/or Vudra book if all of Casmaron is too much to tackle right away!
Was anything mentioned re an .epub version as well? This will likely be the first hardback I’ve picked up in quite some time, but love the flexibility of digital.
Godsrain will be available as an e-book and audiobook as well.
HOLUP
Paizo is gonna give me audiobooks!?
Desna smiles on me TvT
Audible does have the audiobooks of the other novels we have released (and the audio dramas too if you like full cast with sound effects)
It would be very cool to have a list of possible representatives, with the idea that the GM selects who shows up based on what kind of characters the players bring, choosing people that could align with and know the PCs already or be a foil to others.
I would not be surprised to see that in the Player's Guide.
I assume the timeline dates are in the Imperial Calender. Are they given with the AR equivalents, or do we need to calculate those ourselves if we are making a grand timeline of everything?
Yeah, I would assume that in addition to one of the core 20 gods dying there's also going to be lots of other divine trauma, like multiple minor gods will die and some of the other ones will undergo things they would prefer not to have.
Like just because Cayden isn't going to die, it doesn't mean that he can't lose an eye or hand!
And new minor gods rising - I'm hoping for a goblin hero-god that's actually a goblin and not a barghest, an orc demigod that wouldn't have been considered CE, a godling adventurer, that sort of thing.
Keep an eye on Mahja Firehair.
If Sarenrae dies, Mahja would be right there to keep fighting the good fight.
Having an Orc stepping up to replace the goddess of sun and redemption would fit with Orcs becoming far more accepted around the Inner Sea and with the sun deity not being Core 20 anymore.
While I would be bummed because this would break up the Prismatic Ray, this outcome would be rad as (non-Asmodean) hell.
While I don’t entirely disagree, Rusthenge has a 3.5 average rather than 5.0. That won’t drive Paizo under, but a) it may have an impact on sales and, more importantly, b) it is extremely frustrating.
I know this is a problem staff is aware of... but I feel its worth raising again. Without naming names, there has been a user who has rated every PF2 product 1 or 2 stars without any comment. I just went to check Rusthenge to see if I should pick it up and noticed there is now a second user doing the exact same thing.
Now, I'm pretty good at ignoring this, but it is annoying, and it continues it is going to increasingly hurt customer QoL by skewing star rating. I know there's a hope this gets resolved when the website gets upgraded and policing review can be fraught... but is there anything that can be done in the meanwhile? These are clearly bad-faith reviews by people who haven't actually bought all the books they are reviewing.
Its also possible Scoured Stars has a lower price point because it is consolidated and updated material, vs this one being entirely original and built from scratch.
Ah, missed this one! Sadly see them come for an end for now, but once more for the record: I will throw money at you in order to get a Wingsong Testaments hardcover!
If only because I'm going back and rereading all them to prep for a personal project... I gladly restate this. A Lost Omens Travel Guide style book built around the myths and legends of Golarion would be fantastic!
And more Windsong Testements would be very welcome in the lead up to Divine Mysteries and War of the Immortals!
This is a weird one and I'm not quite fully awake, so hopefully it makes a modicum of sense.
The community use policy allows products that are a) free and accessible to everyone and b) uses the text from the Paizo blog and webfiction.
Ergo, would a free podcast that does readings of Pathfinder/Starfinder fiction from the blog be acceptable as long as it gave proper credit/links/trademark & copyright notice? I feel like the answer should be yes based on my reading, but I can't find precident for it. I know I appreciate my fantasy podcasts/audiobook on my morning commute, so I suspect others would enjoy something along these lines if it is possible.
First Edition. Most of it is lore, however, so it can still have a value in 2e, although the Remaster means are some retcons, reemphisis, and renames to navigate.
I was a subscriber in the end days of Paizo's Dragon and Dungeon run too. I stopped playing D&D for a long time after that because of mental health issues, but when I started again, the most obvious route for converting Eberron was not 4e, but Pathfinder. Eventually Paizo got me full time into Golarion with Wrath of the Righteous and I never looked back.
Original first usage of the word was from Jewish mysticism, they were legendary constructs that could be created by inscribing words in Hebrew on their foreheads.
The most famous legend is the Golem of Prague from the 1500s, which was created by a rabbi to guard the Jewish people of the city from anti-Semitism. The golem goes mad on the Sabbath and eventually has to be shut down by the rabbi.
I can see an argument for it being problematic since it pulls from non-mainstream folklore. On the other hand, so do genies and kami, and they clearly aren't going away (and most people would argue they aren't problematic).
My Jewish friends like them because it's fun to see your culture represented in the game. For them, I get the impression that it's comparable to seeing Tian Xia if you have Asian ancestry, or Rusalkas if you have Slavic ancestry. Makes you feel more welcome. But I can see the counterarguments to the contrary, and I certainly don't want to argue with anyone Jewish who's offended by it.
*sigh* really that's it? That's why the name is changing? I don't even know what to say to that reason.
So, unfortuately I'm several months late and hopefully this doesn't derail, but I do have a more detailed answer for you. Give that it was recently confirmed the golem is becoming the bulwark, I think its topical too.
When ever the discussion of golems in RPGs comes up, I always think of this post. I know several Jewish RPG players very unconfortable with the use of the word, and even though I know many who are okay with it, Heavy Arms explains his issue very ellquoently. I've included it below the spoiler, so others can read it too and hopefully find it as helpful as I have. It is notable because he has no issue with golems existing in RPGs... he just wants them to actually be golems.
You can read the post I've quoted below in its original context here.
Spoiler:
Heavy Arms wrote:
So, because I'm apparently feeling a bit chatty, and maybe a tad cynically ironic...
I want to explain what a golem really is. When I say golem, everyone thinks about magical constructs that have a habit of rebelling against their creators. Those aren't really golems. They're called golems in reference to what a true golem is.
We, as in humanity, are golems. Or at least that's how we start. A golem is a person of ignorance. Someone that doesn't even understand that they don't know. In Jewish mysticism humanity is troubled by various failings that keep us from spiritual enlightenment. Being a golem is the first. You cannot seek enlightenment without knowing you lack it. We all have to have a moment of inspiration; an experience that makes us wonder in awe of the vastness of the universe around us, and sparks in us a desire to understand it. In the moment we cease to be golems, our ignorance is shattered and replaced by a drive to start down a path towards a higher state of being.
In Jewish mysticism, it's believed that all of the failings of humanity are told in the story of Eden (lots of different ways to count them and differentiate them abound). If overcoming that first ignorance is in the story of Eden... it comes first. And the first failing of Adam is that unlike all other life in Eden, he was not simply created once. At first, he was shaped into a lump of dirt/clay. As such, he existed as a golem, a being unknowing even of itself. Only with the first divine breath does Adam get created a second time, as a knowing human, who then begins the process of understanding his world (the naming of all the things in Eden).
Of course, the connection to the golem-as-creation of man should be more obvious now. When a Jewish mystic creates a golem, they are copying the creation of Adam. They're called golems because they're stuck in that state: created once, but not being granted the divine breath that would free them of their limited state. And why they don't get that second creation is down to the different golem stories (there are many) and what the storyteller is trying to convey. Golem stories in this sense are cautionary tales about the other failings along the path to spiritual enlightenment. When you have progressed far enough, you have the knowledge to create ignorance, and deny awe, and that power is like all power; dangerous. Humans are not meant to be stuck in that state, and they will push against such wrongful imprisonment.
So, when I look at a game like [Promethean: the Created]... of course I'm comfortable with how golems are used. Promethean is a game all about what the true point of golem stories are supposed to be about. It's a mystic journey to become a full and true human... to cease to be a golem... it's about as good of a secularized version of things as I can imagine.
But when I look at a monster manual with a golem reduced to a clay monster (or worse golems of other materials), not only is it disrespectful to my culture and traditions... I'm looking at some bland pointless thing taking the name of something deep and spiritual. Golem stories don't exist to have a monster to fight, they exist to keep us humble on our path towards being better people. They exist to remind us of where we started and no lose sight of that. Calling a statblock that gets bonuses because it's made of clay, and can be killed if you target it's forehead just right a golem is denying yourself a far more fulfilling story.
