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QuidEst's page

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber. 4,785 posts (4,970 including aliases). 15 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 10 aliases.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
John Lynch 106 wrote:

These aren't archetypes as we have come to know them. These are themes.

Archetypes are great because they let you swap out class features for different class features. Feats are already modular and swappable. Quarantining a bunch of feats into a package is very underwhelming. I'm disappointed they're attaching the name "Archetype" to these and would much rather have had them called theme, prestige class, paragon path, whatever and instead had the name Archetype unused so we could get PF1e style archetypes at a later date.

They've specifically said that they will probably include classic Archetypes as a thing (just not in the playtest since they know those work). Probably not even under a separate name. So I'm not sure why people are still harping on them being gone.

Oh, did they? I missed that! That’s a pretty big relief if that’s the case.


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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
PF1 WBL starts quadratic and changes to exponential (+30% per level past 11th or so).

Oh, looks like I over-fit then. Thanks for pointing that out!


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:

You don't have to make costs or treasure progression quadratic or linear. A far better progression would be something like the old 3.x experience progression, to wit:

((Level-1)^2 + (Level-1)) x 500

Using 500 as above, a 2nd level character is expected to have 1000 sp, a 3rd level character is expected to have 3000, a 4th level character is expected to have 6000, and so on.

This means two 10th level characters (45000 each, or 90000 total) still can't pool their money to acquire the loot of a 20th level character (190000), preventing stuff from being as easily broken. It also keeps the economy from going absolutely insane. A potion that heals twice as much is more than twice as expensive, as it should be due to greater action economy, but not crazy ludicrous expensive.

You can play around with the formula or change the multiplier to adjust the actual numbers, but the principle is the same. There is a middle road and I feel it would be better for the game.

… The formula you gave is quadratic, though?

That works out to Amount = 500 * Level^2 - 500 * Level, which is a quadratic equation.

But not an exponential explosion like in PF1 or SF :p

Those are also quadratic. In PF1, wealth increases from 1k to 3k from level 2 to 3. If it were exponential, it would keep multiplying by three every level, putting level 20 WBL at a bit over 387 billion gp.


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Blog wrote:
Boarding Action is one of those feats that nearly every pirate can be expected to have

That's three feats deep. If you're expecting most pirates to have it, then they're level eight before they can think about the Sea Legs chain. I realize pirate is niche, but I'm hoping that most archetypes don't have too many chains of two feats plus the starter.

Really, a lot of the pirate stuff has me kind of nervous. The opener feat seems pretty weak on anybody not benefitting from the weapon proficiencies. It's pretty much only the balance feature at that point, because even in a pirate game, I'm not expecting the GM to tip the ship outside of a storm.

I feel like the intro feat should take pains to give a consolation prize for things you get anyway, because you're forced to take the feat to get at whatever you want. If I want two feats from separate archetypes, I have to commit half my class feats to that- I'd really like everything in there to be useful.

I definitely like this for the prestige class replacement. It avoids the problem where they had to be balanced around the extremes of Wizard, Fighter, and Core Rogue.

I'm looking forward to checking these out! The examples aren't ones that really do it for me, though.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:

You don't have to make costs or treasure progression quadratic or linear. A far better progression would be something like the old 3.x experience progression, to wit:

((Level-1)^2 + (Level-1)) x 500

Using 500 as above, a 2nd level character is expected to have 1000 sp, a 3rd level character is expected to have 3000, a 4th level character is expected to have 6000, and so on.

This means two 10th level characters (45000 each, or 90000 total) still can't pool their money to acquire the loot of a 20th level character (190000), preventing stuff from being as easily broken. It also keeps the economy from going absolutely insane. A potion that heals twice as much is more than twice as expensive, as it should be due to greater action economy, but not crazy ludicrous expensive.

You can play around with the formula or change the multiplier to adjust the actual numbers, but the principle is the same. There is a middle road and I feel it would be better for the game.

… The formula you gave is quadratic, though?

That works out to Amount = 500 * Level^2 - 500 * Level, which is a quadratic equation.


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edduardco wrote:
Isn't this going to cause the math to broke? PF2 has a tighter math after all and more prone to this kind of disruption. Like Senkon said, what if characters pool their wealth to buy a very high level item? Resonance seems like a very good incentive to go this route.

That's the trick with quadratic WBL and item price. Even if all the characters do pool their wealth, it won't do them too much good.

PF1 had quadratic wealth by level. (GP ~= 4300 * level^2 - 56000 * level + 160000) If you look at how high up a party of four 5th level characters could buy by pooling their wealth, it's the wealth of about a 9th level character, instead of linear, which would be the wealth of a 20th level character.

Resonance doesn't actually incentivize this. Why not? Because you only care about running out of resonance. Provided level-appropriate healing leaves you with enough resonance for the items you have (it does, as reported by testers), then it's not worth it to get better healing when you could be getting better permanent items instead.


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edduardco wrote:
Unless item effectiveness is also going to increase quadratically prices should increase in a way that correspond to actual item effectiveness, a linear progression is easier to compare and calculate prices, if that means changing treasure progression to linear so be it. Right now looks like Resonance is been placed in order to force players use overpriced consumables.

Hitpoints mostly increase linearly. This allows enemies to be in the level ballpark, rather than needing to wait until the PCs are level 2 to use level 2 enemies.

If hitpoints Increase linearly, healing effectiveness should increase linearly.
So, we can’t change healing to quadratic.

If we make treasure progression linear, that means that two level 10 characters have the wealth of a level 20 character. That’s a huge balance issue, because you can’t have any items that are appropriate for a high level character but broken for a low-level party.

Resonance, the pricing structure, and the healing/health progression push using the same percentage of your wealth by level on healing the same percentage of your health.


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I read it the other way. A crit hit worsens everything by one step. A question arises naturally: what if they would have crit-failed? I read the blog as providing that answer, and they’re being very careful about avoiding stun-lock. But, I can easily read it the other way.


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Money in the game grows quadratically, as do prices. If it were linear, PCs would pool their WBL to buy a few members overpowered equipment, and loot balance would be very tricky- impossible, even, for certain constraints like “this shouldn’t be too bad for parties of 3-6”.

If healing potions scaled at a fixed cost per point of healing, the answer would be to buy over-leveled healing potions. Then, in combat, just heal from “about to pass out” to full in one swig. I think it’s reasonable to say this isn’t a good solution; there’s very little tension, and if enemies do it, it’s that feeling when an Elite Four pulls out a Full Restore for their toughest Pokémon. (It’d also really break any semblance of supply/demand.)

So, prices have to scale quadratically with your level. This results in another problem, though. For out-of-combat healing, you just get the best cost ratio. This problem isn’t as bad as what you’d get with linear pricing, but it’s not a great feel to have PCs churning through cheap wands and potions. Resonance is a counterweight there. It still needs more-than-linear cost on the other side, though.


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thflame wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Is detect magic still a cantrip? It really shouldn't be.
Why wouldn't it be? Why shouldn't it be?

Why wouldn't it be? Because I believe it has been said that spells like Detect Magic have to be cast at a higher level than the target's spell level to detect Illusions. This means that Detect Magic is either a level 1 spell that can be upcast, or it scales with your level and thus low level characters can't detect stronger Illusions at all.

Why shouldn't it be? So PCs can't be annoying and spam detect magic every waking moment. Luckily, I haven't had someone like that in years. (I had a Paladin that would cast detect evil on EVERYTHING!!!)

I'd be okay with it having a casting time of 10 minutes and making it a cantrip, but then we need to be able to have a chance to detect higher level illusions with it somehow.

I was concerned about this myself, but they’ve done some things that help mitigate my concerns.

1. Spamming Detect Magic is now one of the tactical options for what to do while exploring. You’re giving up moving stealthily, keeping an eye out for enemies, or checking for traps.
2. Detect Magic is less annoying to run. You can ignore your allies’ magic items, it’s no longer a cone but a circle instead, it doesn’t have three rounds of changes, it doesn’t pinpoint, and you don’t have to figure out the spell school each time.

Not giving a school or a location means it won’t be shutting illusion spells down just because they register, but it’s still useful.


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Bears look like a very good choice compared to cats, at least. Cats can’t get any sort of pounce ability until level 14 (on Druid). Bears also have a good assist ability to fall back on, where they add some extra dice to your damage, making they’re still helpful if they don’t have as much accuracy. Probably especially good for TWF Rangers.


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Dragonborn3 wrote:
Two times? Crane Style isn't ability score based.

Water-Dancer gets 2x Charisma to AC, with a level cap on some of that to weaken a dip.


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Ninja in the Rye wrote:
I'm glad that the PF2 version of Wands will still allow us to replicate that epic scene in Harry Potter where Harry used up the last Expelliarmus charge in his wand in the middle of his duel with Draco.

For this, I recommend Harry Potter and the Natural Twenty.


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Mechagamera wrote:
If my math is right, there should be six combinations of two essences. Not to get too deep into grid filling, but will we see all six?

Not in core; there are only four spell lists.


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It sounds like wands are still consumables, ie. they eventually run out of charges. Like other consumables, they take a point of resonance to use. The caster spends resonance, but not the target.


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Eh, I guess it makes sense. I’ve only been thinking about healing spells, but wands cover all sorts of spells. If every wand is a staff, though, Sorcerer is now much scarier than Wizard and Alchemist is going to load up on over-leveled wands rather than using class features.

There’s a big difference between that Wand of Enervation messing with things for the next level, and it being an investment for the rest of your adventuring career.


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dragonhunterq wrote:
And I don't consider giving every class access to class based healing a solution - that just expands the cleric problem to all the classes ("but I have all these cool spells, but I only ever cast cure spells - boring!"). Most people will want to use your class feats on cool class based stuff not healing.

They aren't giving all the classes class-based healing.


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My character is going to claim to be divine, but with a definition for that that doesn’t really line up with actual deities.


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I don’t know that the stuff they’ve covered is that unbelievable in a fantasy setting anyway. I believe a fantasy mystic can live on a mountaintop without food or water, inhaling in the morning and exhaling in the evening. Heck, a first level Internal Alchemist could basically do that last part. As for the vacuum of space, that’s only more problematic if you apply a lot of un-fantasy-ish knowledge. An invisible master Rogue should be able to take a few minutes subtly loosening armor straps before stealing the armor. The best doctor in the world being able to treat blindness is hardly a stretch.


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Childeric, The Shatterer wrote:

Hi, I'm a monk. My special abilities are called Ki Powers and allow me to cast spells.

Hi, I'm a cleric. My special abilities are called Domain Powers and allow me to cast spells.

Hi, I'm a wizard. My special abilities are called school powers and allow me to cast spells.

Anyone else see the resemblance to 4th edition and the way they made every class homogenized, boring and the same?

Those used to all be spell-like abilities. Did you find Wizard getting uses per day that compelling?


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Jinjifra wrote:
Orville Redenbacher wrote:
Any Anathema for monks?
Possessions?

Better boost that will save then, since Protection from Evil probably needs to be up-cast to be effective now.


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Logan Bonner wrote:

Happy Tuesday! Here are a couple tidbits that weren't in the blog.

Monks have 10 + Con mod HP per level.

Monks have no alignment restriction.

Aww yeah!


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Excaliburproxy wrote:

I do worry about his class’s AC. I wonder what their hit points are going to look like.

With flurry of blows and their high movement speed, I suppose they can close distance attack and then run away. Is that how this class is meant to be survivable?

I also don’t know how this class is going get its accuracy bonuses. Is Ki shout the way or will there really be arm wraps or whatever?

Per Mark, Monk does all right on AC, without armor’s downsides. (The important thing is that bracers of armor don’t work like the old ones.) Hopefully 10/level on hitpoints so you can leave Con for later level boosts, but we don’t know.

Magical fist wraps have been confirmed with a bit of text from the banquet previews. Mark also confirmed they don’t have a markup vs. regular weapon enhancements.


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Malk_Content wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Dragonborn3 wrote:

Well we already know from one dev that you make potions in batches anyway. I just hope they don't run off Resonance too otherwise all consumables are pretty... bad.

Potions, as last we heard, take resonance to consume. Same with scrolls and other single-use items.
Absolutely awful.
Notably that is magic potions. Alchemical elixirs (I believe) don't need Resonance.

Nah, those usually need it too. Alchemists just don’t have to spend it on ones they made themselves with their daily prep.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
When you make a fourth attack then with agile, is the fourth attack also capped at -8 or is it -10?
It's pretty clearly -8. The point is that attacks after the third use the same penalty as the third, not that they cap at a specific penalty.
So a character with four attacks using both an agile and non agile weapon can exploit the system to do first attack with the heavy weapon at full bonus, second attack with agile at -4, third attack with agile at -8, and fourth attack with heavy weapon at -8?

Sounds to me like Agile affects subsequent attacks, not the main attack you make.

So attack with a non-agile weapon > next attack gets -5, cumulative, up to -10.

Attack with an agile weapon > next attack gets -4, cumulative, up to -8.

This has been confirmed false. We know that you can do non-agile, agile, agile for the same -0/-4/-8 as agile, agile, agile.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Fuzzypaws wrote:
When you make a fourth attack then with agile, is the fourth attack also capped at -8 or is it -10?
It's pretty clearly -8. The point is that attacks after the third use the same penalty as the third, not that they cap at a specific penalty.
So a character with four attacks using both an agile and non agile weapon can exploit the system to do first attack with the heavy weapon at full bonus, second attack with agile at -4, third attack with agile at -8, and fourth attack with heavy weapon at -8?

Probably not. You’d probably have third-iterative penalties. For non-agile weapons, that’s -10.


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Ah, looks like they solved that little issue, then. Wands need to at least be limited per day. Otherwise, instead of getting a better wand, I hire more peasants as resonance batteries.

Five seems awfully low, though.


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Azih wrote:
Iron Fist, as per the Marvel Netflix TV Series, is definitely not High Wis or High Int though. His mysticism needs to be Cha based!

I understand that the Netflix version dumped charisma too, though.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Heh... so, looking at it, a third-level elf Monk with the ancestry feat for speed is moving 45 ft. per action and ignoring one square of difficult terrain. Dwarves and non-elves wearing medium armor need three moves to catch up to you. Even if they’ve got sudden charge, you’re making two or three attacks to their one.
Sounds like something to keep an eye on in the test, and another good argument for setting base speed for everyone back to 30. Speed 25 after armor vs a speed 50 opponent is at least doable, whereas speed 20 vs speed 45 means no attacks ever without special abilities or reach, yeah.

There are several ways for a dwarf to deal with a cowardly elven Monk. The easiest is just to step back. Now if the Monk wants to attack you, they have to double-move, and attacking would force them to remain adjacent. Readying an attack is useful, and can be combined with moving back.


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Heh... so, looking at it, a third-level elf Monk with the ancestry feat for speed is moving 45 ft. per action and ignoring one square of difficult terrain. Dwarves and non-elves wearing medium armor need three moves to catch up to you. Even if they’ve got sudden charge, you’re making two or three attacks to their one.


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Nathanael Love wrote:

Flurry takes the penalty for cumulative attacks?

So monk can flurry and attack at: -0, -4, -8, -12?

That seems extremely penalizing.

Str monk would flurry at -0, -5, -10, -15?

And if you flurries twice it would be -0, -5, -10, -15, 20?

It’s -0, -4, -8, -8. The third penalty is the last. Trading agile for damage would give you -0, -5, -10, -10.

You can’t flurry twice, but getting hasted gives you an extra attack at -8 or -10 (depending on if you have agile fists).


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Weather Report wrote:
Malk_Content wrote:
Weather Report wrote:

I like the Stances granting different Unarmed weapon types, but it seems the base monk is now completely sans weapons?

I really want to see more armour and weapons to get a feel for things.

A monk can spend a feat in order to use weapons with the "Monk" trait (lets see how many and how good they are but the blog mentioned a Temple Sword) and have those work as unarmed for all monk class features. This is pretty reasonable I feel. Getting to Flurry with a sword for example at no investment would mean either nerfing Flurry or taking something else away from the class (and would make unarmed monks straight up worse.)
Right on, that's cool; I asked in the Monk thread, but can you explain how Flurry works, in regards to the combining damage, how does it work out, exactly? Let's say you make your first attack, and it hits, you roll damage, then you make your second attack, it hits, you roll damage, and then what?

Roll attack twice. Roll damage based on that, and add it together. (At a certain level, hitting with both bumps up the damage dice.) Then apply resistance/weakness.


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TheFinish wrote:
... (pointing out crit failing attacks)

Crit-failing an attack doesn’t do anything by default. If the Bard IDs the enemy as one of the rare ones punishing a crit miss, then stick to a flurry.


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Subutai1 wrote:

I am confident Paizo will manage to make sure that the average damage of a monk is on par with other non-caster classes.

However, I am disappointed in the heavy punishment for attacking multiple times per round, which became most apparent with the monk now, even if other classes are affected by it as well, since this is an inherent problem with the new system as a whole. The penality for iterative attacks is huge, especially in a crit system that is tied to your chance to hit. So most of your damage comes from your first attack, just like any other non-caster class. Any attack after the 2nd one has next to no chance to hit any worthwhile foe. The only counteracting feature we know of so far is agile, and its a minor counter measure at best, since -8 is still way too much of a penality for anything but worthless or stationary opponents.

So you are basically forced to build around your first hit (or 2 hits because of flurry of blows), which is why all those ideas about a hit&run monk come up in this thread. From what we have seen thus far, I am concerned the days of a viable multi hitter are all but gone in PF2, which is a bit too much of streamlining for my taste.

Your chance to hit with your third attack is at least as good as your chance to crit with your first. Monk can essentially have two third attacks (three with Haste), and since two hits is usually worth about as much as a crit, Monk seems quite well-equipped for either hit-and-run or multi-hit.


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Wultram wrote:
DEX or STR: This is more of a thing in the system in general than spesific to monk. But it really seems STR is completely useless stat this time around, due to how damage really comes from adtional dice. Well outside of low levels, but those seem to be even worse waste of time than in PF1. I personally hope that the styles will help the case, especially since I would presume bulk at least partially is effected by STR but monk does not wear armor and possibly doesn't wield a weapon so they have lot less use for it.

Based on Crane Wing attacks being pretty similar to non-style attacks, you're looking at d6s for damage. That means if you max strength at the start of the game, +2 handwraps leave strength still providing more than a quarter of your damage. If we go by PF1, that means that strength by itself is relevant until level 9.

So, what about high levels? The dragon style they mentioned looks like it trades out finesse and agile to get d10s instead of d6s, and you need to be strength-focused to remain accurate with that style. That's an extra 60% dice damage.


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Skeld, PDF Prophet wrote:
QuidEst wrote:

Any stuff for eidolons? (I’m a bit surprised there isn’t a Summoner archetype, but we have another planar content book next month.)

Also, thanks for the info!

** spoiler omitted **

-Skeld

Much appreciated! Looks like I'll be keeping an eye on next month's player companion, then. X)

I wouldn't mind hearing a bit about the feat, but I don't mind holding out for when I can buy the PDF!


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Paul McCarty wrote:
This a release-at-midnight situation on the PDF, and if so, which time zone? Asking for a friend :-|

PST


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I notice the description of powerful fist says you get various perks with your fists. I’m really hoping that’s unarmed strikes in general. (If I’m playing a Monk, it’s because the character needs their hands free for something. Plus, flurry of bites will be cool once we get some ancestries with that feature.)

Locking “jump and attack” behind a class feat, though? Do you normally have to ready an attack with two actions and jump with the third? Does Monk normally ready a flurry and jump with the third action?

Otherwise, it mostly sounds like Monk. The use of styles to tweak your unarmed strikes is nice.


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Any stuff for eidolons? (I’m a bit surprised there isn’t a Summoner archetype, but we have another planar content book next month.)

Also, thanks for the info!


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Iron_Matt17 wrote:
Skill Feats- Assurance: Take 10 on any skill you possess.

The banquet previews of the backgrounds showed that some backgrounds granted things like, "You gain the Assurance skill feat with Athletics," so it sounds like you might have to take it with each skill you want it on. Also, just a note that it's not take 10 in the old sense. You just get a result of 10, regardless of modifiers, bonuses, or penalties. For expert, it's 15, master is 20, and legendary is 30.

(I'm… nonplussed about that.)

Anyway, thank you for collecting the info!


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Igwilly wrote:
One curiosity: what happens to energy/level drain? What mechanic would replace it for our cute special undead which players are terrified? Just got curious ^^

Based on context from a preview of the free bestiary, there's an enervated condition that probably works as the equivalent.


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John Whyte wrote:

This is the first blog post that I think is poor design.

We have a multitude of conditions. Some stack (frightened) some don't (haste). Some are flat modifiers, some are variable modifiers (depending on the number after the condition). All have different ways to remove them.

Yes they will be interesting individually but the lack of coherence is messy.

For all this talk about how the 1e action economy is clunky and how difficult the stacking of bonuses is ... now we have this. Yes the conditions are cool but they are all different and they all need to be learnt

In Pathfinder, frightened conditions stacked, except they usually had text saying they didn’t stack in that particular case. I suspect that learning the conditions will be clearer for a new player than learning the PF1 conditions. (See: people running ability damage in different ways, arguments over what exactly a negative level impacts, etc.)


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Paradozen wrote:
This and the Barbarian guide makes me kinda want to play a shield and spear barbarian. Spend 3 rounds trying to get the critical specialization for spears to weaken enemy attacks, then raise a shield in the fatigue round, the A.C. penalty and bonus cancelling out, and go on the defense for a round. Seems like an interesting exchange.

So long as you don't fight a lot of casters or things that force a save. Trading -1 to saves for +1 to AC is pretty risky.


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Joe M. wrote:
The inconsistent naming convention is kinda bugging me. Quickend, and sickend, please!

sick·en

ˈsikən/Submit
verb
past tense: sickened; past participle: sickened

quick·en
ˈkwikən/Submit
verb
past tense: quickened; past participle: quickened

I think it ends with "ed" for both, at least based on a quick Google search.


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Cuttlefist wrote:
Would quickened just giving you an additional action you can use for whatever really be that overpowered?

Yes.

Two-action abilities are balanced such that you can't do two of them in a round, but you can still do something else. This would remove the ability to balance anything that way; anything that can't be used twice in a round would need extra text to disallow it, or it would need to take three actions (ruining it for un-hasted use).

Three-action spells are balanced such that you can't apply metamagic to them normally, to the point where getting around that seems to figure into one of Cleric's capstone abilities. This would remove the ability to use that as a balancing point.

If quickened lets you do anything, it's really difficult to balance. You end up in a situation where you have to balance assuming people have it, and somebody who doesn't is in trouble.


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Wow, fatigue is a sucky condition to be stuck with. I'm surprised to see it hurting casters just as much!

At least that will make it rare enough that enemies won't be able to limit a Barbarian's effective usefulness to three rounds of combat by preventing rage refresh with fatigue.


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Don't worry, Pathfinder has rules for this.


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I don’t think I’d play either of the presented ones, but that’s because I like magic too much and don’t play the sort of characters who would take a challenge for its own sake. But it’s all right- I’ll check out the others. If animal or spirit is a good fit, I’ll be happy. If none of them are a good fit, I’ll submit feedback. If none of them are a good fit and feedback disagrees with my personal opinion, I’ll grab fury and wait for more to come out.


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In PF1, the answer after level 5 was, “rage during combat for the duration of combat”. That wasn’t very tactical unless you got rage cycling. I think new rage is slightly more tactical by giving you a round that works differently. You could dip casting for that round, or use skill feats to intimidate on that round.


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Joe M. wrote:

Re Somatic Components: My understanding is that Somatic components provoke AOOs while Verbal components do not. So Barbarians with spells only at first can use while ragong spells that will provoke. But later might be able to use other spells without provoking by taking extra feats and such. A balance idea, maybe.

I imagine this decision relates to that, and what it might say about the design principles of picking components when designing a spell. But yes, I would love more insight into these decisions, just to understand the playtest design better.

I have almost never in fiction seen a character ruin a spell or ritual with an incorrect gesture (only once- “swish and flick”), while mispronunciation seems quite common.

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