QuidEst's page

Since knowing about stars is Nature, I would use that as the non-Society option for novians.

One enemy. ("The enemy's...")

Range is probably supposed to be 30ft. like the other feat, but it's missing the range.

Alchemist archetype daily prep. And, with GM permission, mid-level tentacle potion to be able to use his tail to interact with the Horn of Plenty while dual-wielding frying pans.

QuidEst wrote:

Don't you mean 12 damage instead of 84? Cataclysm lowers effective resistance.

Wouldn't it be 60 since its 5 different damage types? I don't think you apply the resistance individually to the 3 parts that all do bludgenoning.

Ah, it does note that it's five damage types, yes.

NorrKnekten wrote:

They do mention most of those questions in the FAQ itself though? The blog states that some of the reasons for the changes are within the erratum after all.

Quote:

Resistance to all damage or to a wide array of damage (such as physical damage) also applies only once. This is a big change to the status quo! Most monsters with resistances like these aren’t balanced around resisting multiple types of damage per hit, so this is unlikely to significantly change how they play. There is a rule about applying multiple resistances to the same type, but a multi-type resistance can be applied to the most beneficial damage type if it could apply more than one.

Same with enemies attacking PCs, they typically only deal a single type of damage in vast majority of cases, this is typically not going to change anything, even going into level 15+.

That is again not saying much imo. OR at least not as much as I would like for a change that impacts so many options and core features of many enemies and pcs.

Which monsters with resistance were not balanced around resisting multiple damage types? Ghosts almost universally have really low HP for their level and they dropped like flies if you had access to ghost touch, which is now a lot weaker in it's supposed niche. What about character options? Was champion also reducing more damage than intended? What about blur or barbarian's unstoppable juggernaut? What about multi damage type spells? Were they written with the expectation of being weaker against a subsection of enemies or was that also not balanced around?

For the record I think this way of handling resistance is more intuitive and easier to balance around. But it seems like such a fundamental shift in game balance, now a champion protecting their ally from cataclysm reduces only 22 damage instead of 154 as before. This is probably the most extreme example I can think of but it is not outside of the realm of possibility.

Don't you mean 12 damage instead of 84? Cataclysm lowers effective resistance.

When the day comes that Paizo decides it is no longer worth it to maintain official forum communities like this one, we'll only have ourselves to blame.

I certainly appreciate all the work that's gone into keeping them going so long after so many other companies have ditched them for unofficial communities on social sites/apps so they don't need to host or moderate.

I'll definitely be explaining it as being "resist any" in more practical terms on the rare occasion it comes up on the player side. It allows for a quick, intuitive understanding of what's going on.

Paizo is made up of people. Based on what we've seen in the past, those people have the freedom to comment on design philosophy if they want, but it isn't part of their required duties. A good number of the developers who chose to comment have since chosen to go off and do something else.

You seem to want official design commentary to be part of the duties, possibly via a proxy. As you can see from the comments, not everyone feels that's necessary.

Paizo also chooses to put their efforts elsewhere. Compared to D&D, Paizo has provided more official feedback on class playtests... because they have more new class playtests. Compared to D&D, Paizo has provided more feedback through their official forums... because they are still maintaining forums.

Paizo does do monthly streams over on Twitch, with VODs uploaded to YouTube. They choose to have those focus more on upcoming material.

Anyway, finally failed my will save on replying, so I'll leave it at that.

Love the action economy improvements to Mutagenist and Toxicologist got to their very difficult to use field vials. It helps them feel like they have some things going for them that the archetype version doesn't.

My question about Rip, Tear is why it doesn't apply to the claw version of the narural weapons feat. Doesn't it make the jaw attack strictly the better choice?

The claws are agile and finesse with the same damage as the jaws. d6 damage is already just about the maximum that agile is allowed to do at level 5. Getting some d6 bleed on there would be a lot.

I don't play casters much, since I also have issues playing them, but my approach is to spontaneous casters is getting the following for each rank: one "optimal" spell (things like Haste that are just always good), either one solid damage spell for a high rank or one spell that heightens usefully for low rank, and one completely free choice. Four-slot casters get an extra free choice. For cantrips, two boring, practical damaging cantrips (one for longer range, one for multi-target) before I start grabbing the flavorful stuff.

Picking only the best spells isn't fun, but it's also good to have solid fallbacks that do something useful. It's striking a balance with the system as best as I can.

From there, get a fun gimmick spell (like Invisible Item) on a wand, a few circumstantial low-level spells, and if possible, a staff for anything low-level you want to spam.

Now, in practical terms, what I actually do is play a lot of Thaumaturges, Kineticists, and now Commander. I suspect that Necromancer will join the list, since "spam thralls and focus spells" handles a lot of combat.

I'll just chime in that the best fix for early APs, or just the problem your group is running into in general, is for the GM to give the PCs one extra level over what's expected. That extra +1 and early proficiency bump really helps out a lot! It takes the pressure off the group to be so optimal and coordinated.

It's so rare for the Sickened debuff's restriction on eating and drinking to impact enemies at all, so I would absolutely let it work in this sort of situation.

James could we get a god of Rogues that is path who's not a murderous Psychopath no need to do the current one in just one who is natural and not evil.

Here's a list of all the deities with thievery or stealth as their skill who don't allow unholy sanctification. And, because I know that "Rogue" covers a variety of things, here's the list with deception added in as well.

Paizo could have never really gone with 2.5e or PF2.5.

Imagine, if you will, Paizo setting out to remove as many lingering traces of D&D-isms as feasible. For legal reasons, they need to be sure that the casual consumer doesn't confuse it with Dungeons & Dragons. It's a massive undertaking. What do they call it? Well, they sure can't follow the exact naming convention that D&D used for their major mid-edition overhaul that Pathfinder came out of.

Using 2.5 would have been shooting themselves in the foot when it came to the actual goal of the Remaster. Sure, D&D doesn't have ownership over decimal versions, but it could still be brought up to help show a larger pattern for the civil case. D&D formally adopting 5.5e just means that Paizo definitely can't do that for the Remaster.

Cloud nymphs (Nephelae) are a thing in Greek mythology though...

Also, Pathfinder already has nymphs of sunsets (Hesperids) & seasons (Hora), and neither of those represent permanent landscape features...

(They do represent natural periods of time or natural phenomena, so a nymph representing storms/hurricanes/blizzards/etc. could fit...)

<shrug>

I know Hesperids are tied to "a place where the sunset is especially beautiful". I guess my difficulty is meshing Pathfinder's interpretation of nymphs with something like clouds- but I guess you can have places like the windward side of a mountain where clouds naturally form.

Point is that we should get all Nymph variations as heritages, including wind.

What semi-permanent natural feature would you tie a nymph to for "wind"? Wind doesn't really fit in with trees, caves, or bodies of water because it's more of an event than a fixture. I think "natural wind tunnel" is too specific to get a heritage.

I'm someone who will research and brainstorm until getting something that does work for the player. For a Champion, I'd suggest Blessed One (for appropriate deities), Guardian, an archetype that makes them better at other aspects of their deity's portfolio, an archetype that gives them more to do in social or exploration scenarios, or just look into how the character itself can be expanded to be a little more rounded.

As for your second question! I don't know Foundry very well, so you might want to approach the Foundry community through their Discord or Reddit. I think that there's a compendium with various class and monster abilities? You might be able to drag the Kineticist abilities you want onto the monster. It's a bit of a complicated class, though, so it might not work so easily, and you may need to ask.

At worst, you can drop some of the automation and have a few copy-paste Kineticist abilities ready to go.

Sooo...Paizo just increased it's prices for it's PDF's. Personally I'm a tiny bit upset as I'm in a cost of living crisis like most of the USA and I can't really afford those prices. How does everyone else feel about this?

The flip side of it is that the folks at Paizo are also dealing with cost of living. I don't think anybody's a fan of their hobby getting more expensive, but folks at Paizo have to manage those same grocery prices.

Yes, that is fine. It's rare that it will be very useful, though, because you usually want to have at least two actions to cast a spell or cantrip.

Im thinking giant foxes, potencially from tian xia, as an higher level beast/animal that is used in the kitsune armies or being workship like guardians.

I'm not sure what kitsune armies you're talking about? There aren't a lot of primarily kitsune settlements, let alone somewhere large enough to field an army. They're shapeshifters, and thus tend to intersperse with the ancestries they can take the form of.

For high-level foxes, we have gumiho at level 17, bul-gae at level 14, and immortal trickster at mythic 11th. None of them are large, but generally one isn't picking a fox thematically for size and power. Lots of shapeshifters, you don't get a lot of simple big animals at high levels outside of dinosaurs.

Some good options with what we have are wolf animal companions, finding canine and feline animals and beasts to convert, using beast eidolons, or homebrewing.

Summon a creature that has regeneration, watch it drop to 0 HP every turn and then pop back up?

They're dismissed at 0 HP.

Not long ago, I made a comment on Reddit saying that Assurance (Monster Lore) from Tip of the Tongue is worthless against anything at or above level because it's a broad, non-specific lore that shouldn't be getting a lowered DC. There was disagreement with this, which I could not find anything supporting my argument. I could have swore there was a general agreement in these forums or even explicit rules that lores like Bardic Lore and Esoteric Lore do not get lowered DCs but I couldnt find anything. Is there anything supporting my claim or did I completely imagine this?

Not that I know of, either for or against.

In the case of "Monster Lore", I would personally give a lowered DC against individual creatures that have been particularly monster-like in their actions. Whether that's "terrorizing the populace openly" or "mysterious disappearances have been happening near the old mill", once it reaches the point where you expect Geralt to be called in to deal with it or a consultation from Van Helsing, it gets a -2 to DC from me.

For Bardic Lore, it's anything where it seems like there would be a song or play about that individual.

For Esoteric Lore... that's vague and strong enough that it's going to be pretty rare that I'd give it- it'd have to be something that matches that particular Thaumaturge's individual brand of nonsense especially well. But I generally expect Thaumaturge characters to provide a little personalized context for what they're doing in-world that's being abstracted by the general mechanics.

Now, I don't expect the occasional small reduction in DC to make Tip of the Tongue relevant at rolling about a specific quarry. But if you're fighting a demon, something like recalling that most demons have a weakness related to their "sin" is fair game because that's something any expert would be expected to know.

EDIT:

"Your encyclopedic knowledge of monsters allows you to quickly recall basic information."

I feel like folks are ignoring the flavor text here? It's for basic information. "What can you tell me about demons?" Those are creatures, so it's fair game. The DC isn't especially high for basic information about them. A Slayer with a few levels being able to rattle off an answer without needing to roll or even spend an action is absolutely on-brand.

I'm gonna disagree pretty strongly.

1. The class doesn't work if the character doesn't know what they do. If you rip out the "knowing about monsters" part, then you have somebody who is prepping to fight something while remaining ignorant, and then taking a trophy that they don't know the function of. That's a mess.

If you want to make somebody that hunts monsters without knowing about monsters, they shouldn't be using trophies that depend on the monsters' characteristics. Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue are all excellent choices to represent that.

2. Knowing about undead means knowing about all the gods, learning how to tame animals means being knowledgeable about both fey and elementals, and reasonable preparation for sewer slimes means being similarly prepared for cosmic horrors. Knowledge skills covering at least some out of character things is a function of the game system. Just don't roll for things that aren't relevant. It's fine, and restricting everyone else to mechanically support ignorance is... unlikely to result in a better net experience.

3. I'll refer you back to point #1 on this. Even if the scaling lore doesn't have a bunch keying off of it specifically, it's what enables the class to work without being entirely metagame-dependent.

I'm fine with not caring for the Assurance/Automatic Knowledge. But it does go out of its way to say that it is for recalling "basic information", as opposed to something to use on difficult quarry. You don't have to use them all the time.

4. It's a scaling versatile lore on a physical-stat martial class. Yeah, it's not your key stat, but you get a +2 from quarry to help make up for it.

5. No thanks. I don't want this pulled out to a feat- it's too central for the class to make sense, and I don't want a feat tax. It's also not overly weak, it's just not Thaumaturge... which is fine.

---

Main thing I care about is the first point. I think it's just not a class thematically built for winging it from a place of complete ignorance, even aside from the Monster Lore itself.

Finoan wrote:

Super Zero wrote:

Psychic spellcasting removes the need for incantations, not the Auditory trait. Only spells that make sounds have that.

That is also a good point that I think needs more attention.

So an example would be Bullhorn. A Psychic could cast the spell without uttering any incantations, but would still have to speak in order for their voice to be amplified and heard by all creatures in the spell's range.

If I correct understand this part, then Psychic spellcasting allow you cast when you are silenced, because you don't need to speak during your spell casting. But in some cases - you have to speak if spell enforce you to do it. For example we can see this spell Wails of the Damned - this spell have auditory trait, and we see this part in spell description "You howl a lament of damned souls..." - this spell in the same situation like Bullhorn spell. I think this is kind a narrative issue and you can just reflavore this spell and do it without your "mounth" and "prononceation". This reflavore is necessary to apply the Psychic spellcasting rule.

Am I correct in my thoughts?

Wails of the Damned doesn't work on a deaf target and doesn't work in an area of silence. Psychic doesn't do anything too change that. That's a function of what the spell does and trait requirements, not general casting rules.

Super Zero wrote:

Psychic spellcasting removes the need for incantations, not the Auditory trait. Only spells that make sounds have that.

That is also a good point that I think needs more attention.

So an example would be Bullhorn. A Psychic could cast the spell without uttering any incantations, but would still have to speak in order for their voice to be amplified and heard by all creatures in the spell's range.

We even see The Silent Whisper address this by removing the Auditory trait from Message to make it a purely telepathic spell.

QuidEst wrote:

If I were you, I would make a new thread, and maybe link to it from here. "Iconics: Things I'd Like to See" isn't a title that would really help folks find what you did, and we're more than two years from its creation, so it's not really fresh in the mind of the mind of the posters.

Sounds reasonable, thanks.

Don't see a "like" button on your post, but consider it given. :)

That'd be the "+" icon under the reply button! And I'm happy to help.

Ed Reppert wrote:

Not much really.

1. A biography for each iconic, including a physical description and a picture.
2. A "signature" saying.
3. A first level build for each iconic (including the ones Paizo is at present reluctant to make).
4. An explanation of why the choices made for the above build were made.
5. Higher level builds (at least 5th and 10th).
6. A Pathbuilder build for each iconic (up to 20th level if possible).
7. An explanation of the choices in the above Pathbuilder build that weren't covered in item 4.

Not gonna happen, I'm sure, but it'd be nice.

As a new PF 2ER GM in Training (tm), I started off my Sandpoint Brief Campaign in a FGLS with a PUG (Pick Up Group), with people I have never met before. I provided them with an option of 1E Iconics (like Valeros, Merisiel, Kyra, Ezren) Pre-Gen PCs to get the game started, and they seemed to enjoy using them (I used the 2E Pre-Gens that Paizo made available). I notice a few things were off on various PC sheets, when I tried to recreate them in Pathbuilder. I also wanted to add a "Free Archetype" as I use that as a variant rule.

I was going to pretty much type up a post like the OP did (points 3,4, 7), explaining my selections and thoughts behind the choices I made.

As someone who has been out of the loop (forum wise) for many years, is this something I can share here, to build upon the conversation the OP already started, or should I start a new post in a different place?

If I were you, I would make a new thread, and maybe link to it from here. "Iconics: Things I'd Like to See" isn't a title that would really help folks find what you did, and we're more than two years from its creation, so it's not really fresh in the mind of the mind of the posters.

Definitely not "edge". I'm tired of the jokes already, and they haven't started.

Transporter accident when beaming back down.

Kelseus wrote:

We have been waiting for this since the launch of 2E. But it is finally happening.

Dead God's Hand is coming in September!!!!!

I am very excited about this! Cannot wait!

Also in the product description it says Aroden was murdered!

Murder is one way to get killed, but I wouldn't read too much into the blog's use of that word.

Product description describes Aroden as "the dead god of humanity whose murder triggered the beginning of the current age!", so it might benefit from being updated to "death"? I know I saw it and assumed that we were getting a pretty major "cause of death" update with the new edition.

BotBrain wrote:

I feel like if we were gonna get shifter it'd be playtested. I'd love to hope but I just do not see it.

Not necessarily, especially if it doesn't have new mechanics, but instead has a remix of old ones.

If you're saying as just an archetype, then yeah. But I can confidently say that even if they ever do release a non-playtested class in a non-Gencon book, they would definitely mention it in the book description. It would be a huge waste of sales to hide the biggest selling point.

Trickster Bard is very exciting to me. I'm looking forward to seeing what the first couple of feats are for it. Hoping for a nice focus spell in there!

A versatile fey heritage is also appreciated. I know we have the rare fey feats, but having the standard approach available is nice.

Of the ancestries, I think Faun is what I'm most looking forward to.

Very excited to be getting a trickster muse for Bard- that sort of thing is absolutely my jam (as most of the "What class do you still want?" threads will attest).

Fair enough- I guess my approach would be either building around the other feats, or swapping weapons once you have Rushing Strike. The only maneuver trait on a d12 weapon is Shove, and that would require a blocking prop to not shove them out of your reach for Daring Reversal.

There is also the lower-value option of just using Daring Stunt to move without doing a maneuver to stride with the risky trait- it's not action-economy friendly, but you also don't increase MAP.

There are several feats that require Adrenaline that can't be used or get maximum MAP when you get Adrenaline via press action, like Caroming Charge, which costs 2 actions, Daring Reversal, and Headsmash, which suffers from MAP.

I guess I'm not seeing why you'd want those feats anyway?

Caroming Charge is normally not combined with a damaging attack, outside "random floor junk" or Rushing Strike. Why would you pair it with a two-handed weapon?

Daring Reversal has a similar problem even if you don't have a weapon: you need a non-press source of adrenaline, and that's mostly Daring Stunts. That requires you to have an empty flank spot to move into instead of capitalizing on being flanked.

Headsmash is an incapacitation press adrenaline ability that requires grabbed and being next to the same prop as your target. You only take that if that's your exact build anyway.

If you're grabbing a two-hander, then the class is there to let you do a variety of maneuvers without hands at a reduced MAP which weapon traits don't normally give on two-handers.

Going two-handed with DD is an option. The big problem is that it limits you to using Daring Stunt, which is currently the first way to get adrenaline without Press but requires a free hand or a weapon with Trip, Grab or Push traits to allow the character to get adrenaline at the first action to be able to use actions that require adrenaline, especially those that are 2-actions.

Only when you reach level 6 is it possible to get Rushing Strike and get adrenaline without needing a free hand or some special weapon trait.

Why would you need Daring Stunt? Just attack someone with your d12 two-handed weapon at no MAP, then use a risky press to inflict grabbed or prone via Athletics without using Grab/Trip or using your hands. Adrenaline doesn't do you any good until you have MAP or want to do something that requires it.

Yeah, you're not mobile until Rushing Strike, but that's fine- you still have an action to move and a conditional movement boost.

I was just thinking about the free-hand MAP rule for Athletics maneuvers.

Multiple Attacks with Athletics

Several Athletics actions have the attack trait, meaning that using them more than once in the same turn makes them less accurate. Since these actions use your free hand, you use the traits for your fist attack to determine the multiple attack penalty, so your fist's agile trait applies. Therefore, you take a –4 penalty if the action is your second attack of the turn, or a –8 if it's the third. Some weapon traits allow you to take these actions using a weapon, in which case the penalty might be –5 or –10 if the weapon doesn't have the agile trait. Some characters can get unarmed attacks without the agile trait as well. If it's unclear which penalty to use, the GM makes the call.

I notice that most of the Risky Press maneuver-like options don't require any kind of free hand, so it seems like you can use them while wielding a two-handed weapon. Generally, the class would like to have a free hand for whenever it does a regular maneuver, but it seems like it's an option.

What does something like Wheeling Pull Stunt use? Can you use a free hand to give the pseudo-maneuver agile? If you have a non-maneuver agile weapon, does the pseudo-maneuver gain agile? Can you use your "fist" attack with your foot to get agile even with your hands occupied?

Next up, my favorite idea I came up with for the Share your Slayer and Daredevil concepts thread: Tanuki that is convinced various people's mundane objects are actually powerful magic trinkets that the party casters are too incompetent to recognize. Obviously, such powerful magic needs to be in his hands for being clever enough to recognize it, even if it means cutting it off someone else's.

From the Tanuki side, we probably want the Steadfast heritage to get a human shape, and eventually Many Faces to be able temporarily take somebody's place.

We will want the Society skill, and we will need to remain untrained in all four magic skills, plus never take Untrained Improvisation.

On the Slayer side, we want the most concrete reinforcements we can get. Panoply is out, because saves are too vague. The others all do something more obvious, but if we're going around killing people for their stuff, Bloodseeking Blade is the way to go. Even if most people don't have energy damage or resistance, a club suddenly being able to cut things is pretty obvious.

For our first level feats, Peculiar Weaponry seems like an excellent choice to stand out a little. Let's go take a look at advanced weapons, as well as a few simple ones.
- "Butchering Axe" feels like a... very fitting choice. Mechanically, it's almost no stronger than a Greataxe (because when do you ever need to shove?), but I'd spend a feat for the word "butchering" and my commitment to the bit.
- For other d12 weapons, we have the Spirit Thresher. That's also a suitably horrifying weapon to go out of your way to learn. "Versatile S" is a more useful trait than Shove, and with a piercing damage trophy, we cover all the physical damage types while still getting Sweep.
- Moving into the reach d10s, we have the Dwarven Dorn-Dergar. This one feels like a fitting tanuki weapon: a big chunk of metal (with his face carved into it) at the end of a chain. Reach is great even if we don't get any sort of Reactive strike, and I have a fondness for Razing, if for no other reason than it gives a good reason to be able to batter down doors. A trophy "magically" making it sharp or causing it to burn? Incredible.
- Capturing Spetum is very much a "hunt somebody down and don't let them get away" weapon. Reach, trip, and you can spend an action to cost somebody 10 feet of movement. Nice, but I don't think it beats the reach/razing combo.
- Broadspear is a boring, practical reach/sweep combo with versatile damage.
- Bladesweeper definitely makes the tanuki look a little crazy, strapping three swords together. I think that's probably a bit much.

From all that, I think a Dwarven Tanukin Dorn-Dergar is the way to go.

2nd: So far, we only get resistance-reduction on quarry, so I don't care about Instant Enmity. Pack Slayer doesn't fit the concept, and the only reason the character works outside an evil party is that he keeps picking on people stronger than him. Our weapon doesn't work with Personalized Gear or Shifting Hunt. Salt Stone... Okay, I'd take it in any campaign where incorporeal/regeneration are likely to come up more than twice. Slayer's Tricks requires Wisdom... but it's not like it's a problem to dump that, since the proficiency only ever hits expert. So, Slayer's Tricks or Sudden Pounce. Let's revisit this when we hit the first follow-up for Slayer's Tricks. EDIT: Slayer's Tricks it is.

4th: Spirit Oil is still 1/day, and I'm not taking that for something that only applies on crits. I'm not a Fighter here, and it requires a free hand anyway. Blood for Blood or Blood Rush- Blood Rush feels very fitting here, actually. Eagerly dashing in to get at the holder of the "magic" item.

6th: Spell Slates is the only useful thing we can take, and it lets us make any item into a spell-in-a-can object.

8th: The dreaded level 8. I'm not crafting stuff out of people, two feats are locked, and I don't care about Defensive Hunt. Honestly, let's just go grab Sudden Pounce; a first level feat is better than anything here.

10th: Share Insight is no good for Bloodseeking Blade, and we don't have Instant Enmity, and we don't have anything else to spend our reactions on for Ever Vigilant. Eager Hunter would be good if we could step away, but we can't. I've got nothing here, and we went back to grab the other feat we needed. Maybe Share Insight will be useful with something next level...

11th: Breathing fire or damage reduction? I think we want damage reduction. Share Insight is valuable enough to take. We can upgrade to heavy armor for AC if we want.

12th: We have Spell Slates, so we have to take the upgrade feat.

14th: Bloodburst Phial, obviously. Picturing that in combination with our choice of weapon... grisly.

16th: Unerring Edge is the good option at this level. It's an extra +1, and you can hit invisible creatures accurately.

18th: Obliterate mostly seems like a mechanically bad choice... If we can On The Hunt a Sure Strike, critting for double max damage is pretty, but under those circumstances we could double Honed Strike instead, which we've upgraded to +3. However, Terrifying Bloodlust is the alternative, so I think we just take Obliterate for the style points of getting to say we get max damage on our end-game 4d10 + 3d6 + 3d6 + 7 + 6 = 89 damage (+8 against objects).

Actually! Now that I mention objects, we absolutely want Obliterate: objects can't be crit, so Obliterate turns us into a wrecking ball. Once we hit max level, we can break down a solid iron wall (18 hardness, 72 hp) in a single swing.

20th: Eternal Hunt is the only choice here.

---

Verdict: We get trophy uses at 1st, 6th, and 11th. It's a little sparse for a build that wanted to collect several, but each one feels like it's a noticeable thing that could be explained by a magic item. Levels 8 and 10 still feel bad.

Spell Plates gives a reason to go after (non-occult) casters and really ups the value of daily prep.

I like this character. He seems like a real menace. I would definitely play him so long as the group is comfortable with a character interested in killing people for their stuff, as well as the magical ignorance shtick. Solid contender for who I'll playtest with.

I'd like to suggest that the class should have a Spell Plates capstone feat available to it, maybe give master spell proficiency and/or a ninth rank spell. By being mutually exclusive with Eternal Hunt, it avoids the issue of casting two high-rank spells in a turn.

EDIT: Whoops, missed a major choice for 7th level- the free rune normally picked. It'll normally be fearsome (to penalize the save vs. prone), but when laying low, it'll be hand to be able to turn such a conspicuous weapon into something like a walking stick.

Slayer and Daredevil are both fine as names, they should just be swapped between the two classes.

What's the point of giving heavy armor proficiency if there's no level 0 heavy armor? Will some be added in the book this comes in? Otherwise the only way to use heavy armor is with an armor skirt. Is this just to ensure Slayers don't have access to Bulwark since they have terrible reflex saves? If that's the case level 1 armor keeps bulwark off the table while giving some freedom of armor choices.

It's to prevent you from starting with free later-level gear that other classes also don't start with. Like them, you switch when you get it.

If splint mail was allowed you could get that with typical starting funds and a weapon.

Then buy it and swap. That's fine.

QuidEst wrote:

So long as you have a hand free, you don't need the maneuver trait- you get agile from your fist attack. But yeah, something like meteor hammer is a good fit.

Agile sweep with a maneuver is wild, though. You can move and maneuver, then press-attack someone else with only -2.

The only agile sweep weapon with a maneuver trait is the scourge (which has disarm), unfortunately it also only deals 1d4 nonlethal.

Whoops, yeah , disarm isn't on the list of four things with action compression, so it doesn't work well even if you're counting on the d10 damage press.

Vampire: take a metal article from their clothing or jewelry and expose it to sunlight, take a piece of the stake that was used to ensure they were dead, take a page from a book they kept on them,or take a piece of their cloak and expose it to sunlight. Probably most fitting of all, take some of the grave dirt they used or a piece of their coffin- those seem like things you could really use against other vampires.

Bandit leader: take a piece of their armor, take something they killed someone for (when that trophy is rotated out, it's because the family of the victim was located to return it to), or keep their bounty poster. Most fitting thing I can think of is to keep their empty coinpurse.

Because these trophies aren't something that you can expect to have stolen, some more metaphysical options are available. Take a bit of their shadow, capture some of their reflection in a piece of metal, dip something in their blood (still grisly but less concrete). Collect evidence (more fitting for when you're empowering something that isn't a weapon). Set the soul of a victim trapped by the need for justice free and receive some ghostly token or blessing, with ten minutes being the process of locating such a spirit. Heck, receive a small blessing or token if the appropriate prayers were done before and after vanquishing evil.

You mention that taking magic boots is fine and expected. Well, you can also treat the class as one that's able to draw out minor magic that others can't. Those boots might seem mundane to others, but you can draw out a little occult magic to empower something.

So long as you have a hand free, you don't need the maneuver trait- you get agile from your fist attack. But yeah, something like meteor hammer is a good fit.

Agile sweep with a maneuver is wild, though. You can move and maneuver, then press-attack someone else with only -2.

QuidEst wrote:

Huh, that's funny to see. *quietly updates my false villain kitsune necromancer and false hero tanuki disaster scam couple to have the tanuki be a Slayer instead of a Swashbuckler*

Now hold on, forget the rest of this thread, I wanna talk about a Kitsune Necromancer and Tanuki Slayer power couple immediately.

It's an idea I had during the Necromancer playtest. The class is very good at making lots of easily-dispatched creatures that look more impressive than they really are, at least for a little bit. That means that you can play an excellent heel, making somebody look really good.

Kitsune Necromancer, pick up Alchemist multiclass to take mutagens in order to boost deception and performance. He shows up in disguises to a small village, makes sure there's no actual hero already there, and starts terrorizing the local populace. (I'm thinking a bit of a laid back theater vibe outside of the role.) Shortly after, a dashing heroic human swordsman shows up, hot on the heels of a vile necromancer. In reality, it's the kitsune's tanuki boyfriend in disguise. (I'm thinking much more ego-driven and aggressive outside of the role.) Stage a dramatic confrontation with the necromancer, really selling how "difficult" the zombies are to fight through, and eventually defeat the foul necromancer.

The hero basks in the rewards and adoration of the people for a few days before an urgent runner from another village shows up asking for the famous and well-regarded undead-slaying hero. He "reluctantly" accepts any aid that the village can provide him to end this menace, and the two head off to enjoy some time together between cons.

The tanuki is the one who really gets a thrill out of it, while the kitsune is along for the ride and learned just enough necromancy to make thralls.

Swashbuckler had much more of a personable "face" aspect to the hero role, but Slayer can do some impressive action economy without buffs, and the Consecrated Panoply or spirit damage Blood-Seeking Blade can both do a better job of passing for a holy warrior.

What limits are intended on the Quicken provided by Reckless Abandon?

Usually, Quicken states what actions are allowed, but this is undefined so technically allows any action.

Both martial classes getting "cast two spells every round" as a capstone is very funny to me.

Hang on. Haaang on. What do we really want on Daredevil, at least in terms of offense? We want the strongest agile attack we can get to stack MAP reduction, and we want good athletics for our maneuvers.

Bestial Mutagen is incredible for this. We get +1 above curve athletics item bonus, +1 above curve attack bonus, agile claws that beat weapon damage at level 11, and we're only paying with our reflex, acrobatics, and stealth?

Going with Kholo, we can sacrifice our wisdom score to have +4 Str, +3 Dex, +2 Int, +1 Con, +0 Cha, -1 Wis at the start of a free archetype game so that we can multiclass archetype into Alchemist. In a regular game, level 6 was pretty dead anyway, so we can wait to boost Int a second time until 5th, and we'll delay Scrambling Roll until 10th.

Once we hit 11th level, we're golden. We're getting our extra damage die a level or two before everyone else, we have near-Fighter accuracy or better on maneuvers, and we fall apart like a wet paper bag the minute any of our saves is targeted. That last one isn't good, but it's certainly thematic.

Stacking that up with the circumstance bonus to trip from Great Kholo, we're doing pretty well. I know that we are passing up Wrestler with this, but dang.

Huh, that's funny to see. *quietly updates my false villain kitsune necromancer and false hero tanuki disaster scam couple to have the tanuki be a Slayer instead of a Swashbuckler*

I hadn't even thought of allies going down. It's certainly dramatic to have the Slayer burst into action when an ally falls unconscious, but I can see them switching it to enemies-only as an easy fix. But hey, we've got a full year where we'll have the Necromancer out and this version of the ability. (Thralls including a "don't trigger abilities on reaching 0 or being destroyed" would be even better proofing, and prevent enemy reactions from causing issues.)

Remember that feats with both the Risky and Press traits grant you the adrenaline first, before any part of the action happens, so you can absolutely use one and still get adrenaline's MAP reduction.

Meanwhile, I'm poking around with a halfling right now - because stunt damage triggers any time you force a creature into a prop (while having adrenaline), if you can get access to critical specialisations, that's even more potential stunt damage. And hey, the Frying Pan is in the club group! How about a former line cook who's lost all fear of death?

Yep. The risky-press options seem like they're mostly maneuvers, so I guess it's a way to get double-agile on them. Ah, I think that's what I was missing from them- I forgot the free built-in agile on athletics checks! With Athletics/Acrobatics being +2 ahead of a strike and double-agile, you're only at -1 vs. a no-MAP strike. I would probably want the risky press grapple, since that's the maneuver that feels best to end your turn on. I'd probably use it on turns when I didn't have to move up.

I had crit spec club in the back of my mind, but yeah, you do need an ancestry crit-spec for it. Frying pan is one-handed and at least crits like a martial weapon. Accompanying Strike and Hit or Miss seem relevant, as well as Wrestler archetype Combat Grab.

One thing I missed was the flexibility features. The first one is useless, since I'm permanently locked into Breakaway Attack. The second one is a bonus risky feat 14th or lower. I'd probably pick up Hit of Miss because the 14th level ones don't feel useful, 12th doesn't have any, that's the only one at 10th, 8th only has the terrible Escape Shuffle, and if I go any lower I'll feel sad.

It seems like the capstone flexibility features has a typo? It changes from risky to press for the requirements. If it's meant to expandd options,bit should probably be risky or press, so that locking in a bonus feat by using it as a pre-req doesn't lock you out of getting the capstone.

Thanks for stopping by; I appreciate the insight! I can see a few more approaches I might enjoy after that.

I couldn't let Slayer get all the fun! Let's go ahead and see what we can do with Daredevil.

As before, I don't really have a lot of existing characters that fit this in particular. I'd like to do a Great Kholo with a bite focus, and maybe something agile. Seeing if Clawdancer can fit in might be interesting, but archetyping should probably get saved for last.

Let's just go ahead and get started with Great Kholo. We'll be athletics/strength, which means we need to have dexterity secondary and probably tertiary constitution. We'll gently sprinkle in one mental stat as the other tertiary. Crunch is our only relevant kholo feat.

1st: First off, we need a risky feat. We will also want a press action so that we can benefit from adrenaline.
- Breakaway Attack: We've got a d8 bite already- this gives us a risky flourish "unarmed" d8 with deadly d8. Good to have a stronger bludgeoning option too. Strong contender, and it covers our ranged option.
- Flying Hurdle Stunt: Risky press, so we can't start with it, and size-restricted. Swap places with an enemy. Get a +1 on a crit. Uh... What's the point of this? Like, even if you succeed, you are just in each other's spot. I guess you can use it as a dramatically worse Tumble Through using Athletics?
- Forceful Kickoff Stunt: Risky press, so we can't start with it, and size-restricted. Acrobatics-based Shove that lets you Leap. Slightly better crit-shove distance. This doesn't seem like a "move away from them" character, and we're focused on Athletics.
- Rebounding Fall Stunt: Risky press, so we can't start with it, and size-restricted. Acrobatics trip with mildly better crit damage, and prone yourself on failure. Again, we have +1 to actually trip with Athletics.
- Wheeling Pull Stunt: Risky press, so we can't start with it, and size-restricted. Athletics to grapple and move both of you, and a very minor crit failure effect. Grapple isn't something we get a +1 to, so that's fine. It also resolves against reflex instead of fortitude.

From those, it's reasonable to consider Breakaway Attack for if we just want to beat somebody up and still get risky perks. Wheeling Attack gives us a press that we can use- move up and trip, followed by grapple with reduced MAP against reflex? Unfortunately, off-guard doesn't apply to that but it does apply to AC. Lets go with Breakaway Attack.

That means our Press for accuracy is Pressing Pummel. Move, trip, attack at effective -2. It'd be nice to get Scrambling Retreat for better AC, but we'll keep it in mind later.

2nd: Why roll to hit when Caroming Charge gives us multi-target auto-damage? Heck, we can use Breakaway Attack to get our regular attack and then nyoom for guaranteed follow-up damage against anything without a reaction.

4th: Bouncing Hurl is interesting, giving us a two-target Bouncing Hurl for ranged. Can't do this with Caroming Charge, though, so let's see what else there is. Daring Reversal isn't bad, but it's press, and your first action can almost get you out of flanking without issue. Exhilarating Athlete gives us a slow climb with adrenaline and better leaping, but I don't really think that'll come up much. High-Flying Tumble is Athletics leap-tumble, but we have Caroming Charge to get through somebody's space. Wall Slam needs two props. I guess this is probably a good level to pick up Scrambling Retreat.

6th: Double Breakaway is an extra action for one die of damage and a weak crit effect. Headsmash gives us a grapple follow-up to try and stun lower-level enemies. Rushing Stride gives us move-and-strike as a risky action, but we've off-guard against everyone else. Mainly for a boss...? Weapon Twist Stunt is acrobatics. Nothing I really want, but Rushing Stride or Bouncing Hurl can sit around for when it's the right circumstance.

8th: We can't use Accompanying Strike because it's weapon-based. Escape Shuffle is just... when do you need this? Heightened Awareness is a "twice in a campaign" feat, and again, we have Caroming Charge to get some damage in against enemies we can't target well. Scrambling Roll, though, is giving us +2 on reflex saves as a reaction- not a bad deal. We will go with that.

10th: Deadly Advantage seems like something we needed to build towards earlier. Wait... nope. You have no way to use this in-class, and need somebody else to apply the conditions. (Trip Up is a two-action press with a condition that doesn't last through next turn.) Deadly Advantage should probably be reworked or removed. Hit or Miss is a fun one to pull out in emergencies- especially if you still have a hero point. We'll go with that, since I don't think we're going to be spending actions on one-round temp HP.

12th: Fortify Self is one round an hour? Pass. Knee to the Nethers... doesn't need to specify not needing a free hand, that's normal for unarmed attacks? Great feat, though- getting grapple with a conditional attack in the same action with delayed MAP increase is a very solid Press option. Next is multi-trip, so Knee to the Nethers it is.

14th: Freewheeling Strike is a lot of actions for something so conditional. Opportunistic Press Stunt is your standard press/risky/size-restricted. Stride, reposition, and if an ally is there, they can strike. Shattering Breakaway is a two-action Breakaway to smash a bottle and do bleed with Enfeeble. Weird that only now does something work with Deadly Advantage. Well, this one seems worth it for the debuff, so let's grab it.

16th: We do not have the crit-spec or damage to justify gambling so hard on a crit with Risky Overextension. Deadly Rush isn't for something we're using much. Storm of Debris it is.

18th: Lucky Spark is near-permanent roll twice with +2 on saves. Sounds like this takes the place of any legendary saves, so we kind of have to take it.

20th: Double Scrambling Retreat is funny. But Reckless Abandon gives us no restriction Quickened. That means we can Shattering Breakaway into Caroming Charge every round after the first. That's the strongest capstone feat I've seen. The third one is great, but obviously can't compare.

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Verdict: It feels weird that we went in with the intent to do maneuvers and bite, and we ended up chucking junk at people and bumping into them instead. We fall back on maneuvers and bite whenever we deal with reactive strike. Letting unarmed strikes work better with the class would be nice- make Accompanying Strike support unarmed strikes as well.

What's up with Deadly Advantage, though? You can't get bonus damage from it for another four levels without outside help.

As somebody who doesn't see much use in reposition and shove, I'm glad the class still has enough stuff for me to do. I really like Caroming Charge giving early guaranteed damage, although I'll admit it might be more appropriate at sixth level.

That said, that's that. I think any other Daredevil I built would pick almost the exact same feats, with very little consideration for the others. I'm not all that interested in maneuvers, and Daring Stunt with Audacious Combatant is what it takes to get me to engage with them, but I'm not going to be following up my maneuver with another maneuver if I can help it. Thus, this is a one-character thread for my one Daredevil build.