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I think aether and void are probably not going to happen in PF2.

- We aren't getting many expansions to subclass lists in general. Dark Archives, which was a potential fit for many classes, only added a single subclass for an existing class.

- A new element is big. Two pages of feats, and at least one piece of art.

- There's a shift in lore between PF1 and PF2. Aether, wood, and void all had more complicated explanations for what their power source was- interactions between planes (elental planes with each other, the First World, and the negative energy plane respectively). In PF2, we are getting new elemental planes for wood and metal, so the kineticist is only drawing directly from elemental planes. Void could just draw from the negative energy plane directly, but aether is out of luck- at least for planes under primal's purview.

But, my track record on predictions is spotty, so apply as much salt as you'd like.

I can absolutely say with confidence that Paizo is not hiding two whole elements for the new book when they've already announced what elements will be added post-playtest.

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Verzen wrote:

Instead of gather an element being just 1 action and using it and having an aura cost 2 actions why not combine the two? Gathering an element causes an aura to occur. Using an element causes the aura to be "spent"

So the aura, rather than actions, is what I'm spending.

I think this is far more interesting than spending actions.

No thanks. I like the auras, and don't want them flickering on and off throughout the fight like you're flicking a light switch, or weakened to accommodate overloaded actions. I also would really like to be able to have them continue to persist through an element swap. And, finally, I think many people would like to be able to play without automatically getting an aura for each element.

Martialmasters wrote:
So is flurry of blows

Flurry of Blows doesn't work with it, though. (Probably intentionally.)

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Another useful point of comparison: a 20th level caster can spend three actions for a free 5th level fireball (10d6) every minute, that can be flexibly used on any 5th-level or lower instantaneous spell, and I haven't seen it mentioned as particularly good.

It's not the usual thought experiment, but it's something that came to mind. If I'm playing a level 20 master of an element, I should be pretty scary. Not just in an "I could kill you" way, but as a primal force of destruction. At this level, a Druid can turn into a kaiju to make a point, and can spend all day as a huge-size dragon.

The scenario:
A level 6 farmer has been extremely rude to us. There's no point in killing him (that's what a Fighter or Barbarian would do), but he'll crit-fail anything we throw against him. He only has a single one-acre field, which makes a better way to make our point. (For those not familiar with how big an acre is, it's 43,560 square feet. That's about two 25x35 grid battle maps put together, with five foot squares. In real world terms, it's a bit smaller than a football field, either kind.)

The conditions:
You've got a minute to mess up his field. Anything more than that is just going to start getting embarrassing. You're dedicated gate, so it's gotta be done with one element. If you can find something suitably scary to do to the farmer that doesn't kill him, go for it, but it should be scarier than a casting of Feast of Ashes or the party mage will just laugh.

What can you do?

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GrayDeath666 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

It does seem odd that fire can burn down cities, but water can't reliably flood small fields.

Hopefully we're just not seeing all the powers and there are other high level goodies behind the veil that make the elements more balanced towards one another.

Adapt Terrain absolutely can flood a field especially if make a reservoir out of ice first.

Spending a round per square takes three hours to flood a single acre of land. That's just embarrassing.

I also don't think you can really use it to build a fortress from what the ability says. It says it fills the square, rather than filling a cube. You can proliferate rocky terrain, but it doesn't really seem like you can Minecraft stone blocks into existence.

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Ravingdork wrote:

It does seem odd that fire can burn down cities, but water can't reliably flood small fields.

Hopefully we're just not seeing all the powers and there are other high level goodies behind the veil that make the elements more balanced towards one another.

Based on other playtests, this is it. They've always been very up front about what isn't included in the playtest, and in Kineticist's case, that's the remaining two elements.

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- Elemental Defense
- Powerful utility. Aetherkineticist could build a fortress out of force at 18th. Now... Earth can make a five foot cube, and Water has a pseudo-capstone to slightly raise or lower a small area of water? Hydrokineticist did that at level 6 before, and now it's 18? It went from 60x60 raised twelve feet at 6th, to 40 ft diameter raised ten feet at 18th.

Look, I know you're not a spellcaster and this stuff is at-will, but if I've spent twenty levels mastering an element, I should be able to do something impressive. Make a stone fortress, flood... I mean, at least a field, right? I know "flood a city" is probably asking too much, but I should at least be able to make a farmer regret incurring my wrath without taking... (checks math) Three and a half minutes per acre, provided there's accessible water already. Air is doing fine with the upgrades on its lower level utility, and fire can do cool phoenix stuff.
- Some specific abilities that I've already mentioned in my thread, so I won't spam. The class works fine without them.

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I think this is just the sort of thing you can ask the GM for, rather than something that should be baked in. If Sorcerer doesn't expand or restrict your ancestry feat options, then Kineticist isn't going to.

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The Raven Black wrote:

I remember in PF1 when people were annoyed that water attacks meant cold damage, earth attacks did acid damage, and air attacks were electricity.

Everyone cheered when the PF1 Kineticist gave the feeling that you were actually sending waves, rocks or blasts of wind at your opponents.

And those people (eg. me) are content right now, so they're not posting. PF1 Kineticists were able to do either, so the people who wanted energy damage weren't complaining back then.

Ryuujin-sama wrote:
I don't think Elemental Weapon can create a Longbow. It can only create one handed weapons and Longbow is 1+Hand I believe. The same issue longbow Thaumaturges had.

Ah, I'd figured Thaumaturge had an issue because it had to actually use the other hand for something- but I guess then people would just use weapon implement.

Ryuujin-sama wrote:
A little surprised you didn't go for Fusion Blast for the Air+Water version to get a xd4+xd8 120 ft blast, admittedly at the cost of 2 actions.

Ah, I forgot about Fusion Blast after going through mono-element! Yeah, I'd definitely take that.

So, I was curious, and the results are actually rather convenient.

One bulk is about ten pounds. At standard temperature, pressure, and composition, ten pounds of air almost exactly fills a five-foot cube.

A light bulk is about one pound, a tenth as much. A tenth is about an eighth, so a two-and-a-half foot cube. That's rounding up a little. If we round down by the same amount, we get the volume of an average adult human.

So, as a rule of thumb: a light bulk of air is the same space as a medium creature, while a bulk of air is the space that they take up on the map. If the former is too vague, you can instead divide a five foot cube by half on each side, and the resulting 1/8th cube is a light bulk of air.

Separately, Crowned in Tempest Fury is an aura, so it lasts for the encounter.

RexAliquid wrote:
Cycling Blast has the Impulse trait, so it requires that you have an element gathered already to use it.

That's PF2 for you. Thanks.

Wait, hold on... Cycling Blast references a "currently gathered element", so does that not work for re-gathering after you lose your element? The wording definitely needs to be cleared up one way or the other.

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(Just chiming in that I do hope that the physical options are kept, and maybe shored up a little on damage. But I don't see any reason why Kineticist shouldn't get to mess around with energy damage- that's what a lot of people want.)

All right, on to Dual Gate.

Skimming over them, and with the new rules for elemental switching, I think that Water makes a better secondary than Rock. A lot of the water effects can be reflavored as distortions caused by the silenced air.

Important swaps:
1st level (because of different freebies)
2nd level (because there will probably be some things to pick up)
Boring levels: 4, 10, 12, kinda 14, 18, 20

1st level: We can rely on Water for damage, so boomerang isn't as important. We'll keep the cool Message ability, because whispers are very thematic to Lauren. For Water, we'll get Deflecting Wave, since blunting the impact of an attack by enforcing silence on it is something Lauren does.

2nd level: Oh, I love Winter's Clutch. Level damage as an aura? I think my shifting from "silence" to "stillness" as a theme, it's her cooling the area around her by slowing everything down.

4th level: Veil of Mists is nice, but not for Lauren. Still a bit iffy here.

10th level: Cycling Blast and Aura Shaping are both pretty nice. Wings of Air is a little weaker on dual-element, so it might be worth making that non-permanent and getting both. 8th level for Cycling Blast means that Deflecting Wave can be used pretty much every turn for free now.

12th level: Drowning Sphere. At last, a way to shut people up! A bit of flavor-tweaking to make this an area with particularly oppressive stillness that hinders movement, sound, and even breathing.

14th level: Rapid Reattunement seems like a solid upgrade over Flowing Kinetics.

18th level: No real improvement here.

20th level: Yay, Omnikinesis does something now!


Dual element absolutely looks like the way to go for Lauren. Doing close to twice as much damage, and she can do a few things now that fit her concept better. Air actually seems like a somewhat supplemental element for her in PF2, providing some really weak long-range damage and a few utility abilities.

SaveVersus wrote:

Does this feel like there's a big potential for watering-down? You have class feats and impulse feats competing for the same slots.

A dedicate gate, or a dual gate... seems maybe okay, but if you're a universal gate Kineticist (with 6 elements by the full book), it feels like you'll barely scratch the surface of what your class can do, and that will be at the higher levels when the game is potentially over. Avatar, you are not.

I do like that there's no bookkeeping; it's like a channeling mechanic, but you either have the element primed, or you don't.

Universal Gate relies on shifting between elements' tricks on a daily (or eventually rest break) basis. You can change a feat daily at first level, instead of waiting for 9th level, and Rapid Attunement at 12th makes you something like a Spell Substitution Wizard.

First character!

Lauren Tacita is a human character whose origins are as a "superheroes setting" character able to exhale silence and use it to suffocate people by stopping them from making the noise of breathing. When I made her in PF1, she became an aerokineticist who would be grabbing Suffocate. She took earth secondary mostly for the damage reduction and because a sandstorm composite blast fit her all right. She was a tough sniper with lots of stealth and abilities to spy, as well as a Siamese cat familiar named Susurrus. Since Among Us has become a meme since then, his nickname of "Sus" will probably be dropped.

First up: her element is definitely air still. Earth secondary is less important, especially since the defensive abilities can't be used while she has air active. If solo-element is just too ineffective, though, we'll grab it.

Health is going to be comparable to a Gunslinger/Ranger/etc., having 18 Con instead of 14 but a lower base health. We'll grab Toughness when we get the chance; 10 hp base would help make Con feel more rewarding. We'll go with Dexterity secondary because she's supposed to be sneaky. We're human, so that means 18, 16, and two 12s. We'll go with Int and Wis. Lauren's a pretty unsociable person and not too strong, so while we're at it, voluntary flaws to Str and Cha to boost one of those mental stats to 14 sounds good.

Damage... woof. Nobody uses a d4 weapon without damage boosters. Ranger is firing their bow with +1 accuracy over me, so agile is just helping me catch up to the accuracy of a ranger not using their primary class feature. At this point in the build, I Do Not Care about combat. I'm going to be on my phone.

But, I get a bunch of first level options for going solo. Lets go check that out.

I get to pick three of the four first-level air abilities.
- Boomerang is a three-action (effectively- see Overflow) ability that allows me to do equally terrible damage within closer ranges, and force an extra five feet of movement out of enemies. It feels weird that it's "60ft line" and not "up to 60ft. line" if the boomerang itself hovers in place.
- Definitely getting Whisper on the Wind. Lauren was all about those weird whispering effects. It'd be nice if there were something that allowed listening in on people.
- Fair Winds or Air Cushion. Purely depends on the game, both work equally okay for flavor.

We also have a first level feat. I really hate that it feels like the best thing I can do is grab Elemental Weapon for a longbow. I guess I can do it, and then completely reflavor it to something else.

Second level: Second level feats are both worse than the first level ones, so they can be ignored. We'll get a dedication or a familiar here. (As a note, Kinetic Activation should provide some benefit over just getting a primal caster dedication?)

Fourth level: Soothing Breeze is too benevolent for Lauren in general, but it helps with tankiness and gives some more utility. It says "three abilities" but only lists two. More likely, grab an archetype feat.

Sixth level: All right, big money! Clear as Air is the first thing that makes me happy to be using this to build her. It's sustained invisibility, with scaling benefits, and it makes gathering elements stealthy- something PF1 never included. (As noted before, though, I feel like the offhand reference to manifestations that don't exist by the rules is a dozen annoying threads waiting to happen. Please don't solve that by slapping manifestations on...)

Eighth level: Celestial Palisade is pretty tempting (with the thematics of stopping projectiles being in keeping with Lauren's original abilities). Wings of Air is really useful, though, so it'll be under consideration. Oh hey! Aura Shaping is one of the few Con-bonus effects. I don't really have any auras that'd be worth spending this on, though.

Oh hey, good news! I can pick up the practical flight at eighth, and flexibly pick Celestial Palisade every day at 9th.

Tenth level: Chain Blasts. Love the absurd hypothetical range, even though that will never come up. Deconstruct Element seems like it's only worthwhile for fire?

Twelfth level: Circulate Qi can't be used on yourself? Bummer, and also very weird. Also, why the heck does Wiles on the Wind, Ghost Sound with speech added, only show up at 12th level? This is weirdly over-leveled for what it does. Rapid Attunement doesn't do much for solo-element, so... shrugs I guess she can do Ghost Sound with voices.

This is the level where PF1 kineticist was tossing out a very stylish sustained suffocation effect. I know it's just personal preference on making a particular character, but I'd enjoy that more than the odd healing effect or very late illusion.

Fourteenth level: Let's see... Flowing Kinetics would apply to Clear as Air, Aerial Boomerang, Celestial Palisade, Wings of Air (which gets a huge upgrade this level), and Wiles on the Wind. Not bad. Ferocious Cyclone is nice- a ten foot-wide line is much more useful than a regular line.

Oh hey, another flexible feat. Might as well get both of those mentioned in fourteenth.

Sixteenth level: Effortless Impulse! Done, no question. Keep invisibility up without any work. That's genuinely novel, especially since hostile actions don't interfere anymore.

Eighteenth level: Crowned in Tempest's Fury doesn't particularly fit Lauren- a bit too noisy. But Infinite Expanse of Bluest Heaven is weirdly weak? Maybe I'm missing something, but it's a lot of actions for something that doesn't do much. Could just go with Maelstrom Blast, though. Nourishing Gate seems like it should provide a LOT more benefits.

20th level: Ouch. These are really bad capstones for solo-element. I would pick up a second-level archetype dedication over either of these for this character. Omnikinesis is close to doing nothing and requires a prerequisite. I only have one three-action ability, so Flawless Element is a capstone to save me one action on my wind walls. I would definitely suggest a capstone feat locked to Dedicated Gate. I know space is going to be at a premium, but Flawless Element can easily be dropped for it- it's already essentially locked to Fire and Water (which actually have a decent number of non-aura three-action abilities).

Next up: the solo-element verdict is not great, so it's time to consider Dual Gate.

I don't think anybody uses a d4 weapon for damage except with damage boosters, but that's what air is expected to do.

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Water has a solid defensive reaction, although it's overflow, and there are auras that can grant things like passive damage and concealment.

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All right!

Time for some really early and premature impressions, before I get into some more actual detail.

Dang I wish Constitution did something for this class. Please, at least something beyond setting DCs. Use it on a skill, scale effects off it, get a special ability that keys off of a fortitude save, whatever.

Auras look amazing. I love having a class with a ton of aura options ranging in level. And with an action discount for swapping auras? Excellent.

The d4 damage on air makes me a little sad.

What's with the random mention of "manifestations" in Clear as Air? The abilities are all specifically not spells, so they don't have manifestations.

I'd really like Air to be able to shut people up and/or have some sort of suffocation effect, even if it's got the Incapacitate trait. You control air; getting rid of it is the quintessential scary thing you should be able to do.

Adapt Element is nice. Pure Adaptation could really benefit from an example of what it means to purify fire.

Gonna try a character rebuild.

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In the category of "messed up ways for necromancy to substitute for other schools", if you know necril and can raise or convert somebody to an intelligent undead, then you can always make a translator instead of repeatedly using one of the linguistic spells.

Regarding celestials wanting to make their words known, some types have truespeech to address the issue.

I don't think necril has too much advantage in accessibility even setting aside the mental effects (increased hatred of life) and increased likelihood of rising as undead. It's not a designed or fluid language- because the knowledge of it is imparted directly to undead, any additions or conventions that the nation of Geb might add (sign language, etc.) aren't going to be part of that package. It's also just knowledge of the language that's imparted; we know there are undead that understand it but can't speak it.

So, Geb trying to push for it as a universal language probably falls under the same category as trying to get celestial/utopian/infernal/draconic adopted as a universal language. I suspect that PF1 giving wizards access to draconic means that it's been adopted as a common scholarly language, at least in magical circles.

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Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:
Bloodrager archetype :)

I'm not picky. I'll take an instinct too.

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There are a lot of little frustrating things lying around that are possible, but a little hard to do.

Bloodrager was a fun martial with a little transformation thrown in. And Barbarian instincts do that great for the little slice where they overlap! ... But there are only six choices, with one being "no thanks" and another being "I refuse all magic." But demonic, or aberrant, or something like that? You need to get your charisma up, spend two feats, and you can cast a focus spell, but only before you rage.

I was pretty surprised at not getting anything for Investigator in the "big book of weird stuff that could do with some investigating". I love Thaumaturge, and it absolutely works as an occult detective... but it would have been a shoe-in for a methodology for the occult investigator trope that had multiple PF1 archetypes. Psychic multiclass definitely adds solid options there, so I'm not too bummed about it.

Summoner doesn't even have an eidolon matched to every summoning spell yet, and I'm looking forward to whenever we do get synthesist.


The negative:

There's just kind of an annoying feeling of... "Better get the playtest right, because that'll be it." Archetypes are great, but sometimes I just want more choices from the class. The occasional uncommon or rare region-specific feat doesn't really cut it.

Buuut part of that is being used to PF1, where there was a book dedicated to mechanical options every month or two. They had to scale that back even during PF1, and it sounds like it was unsustainable.

The positive:

We've got a big book of equipment coming out. That's just the sort of options-heavy book I'm looking forward to, and it'll be coming out two and a half years after the APG. A big options-focused broad-themed book every two years or so? That sounds about right. I feel like something in the "APG 2" vein, "big generic book o' feats" would probably be PF2's equivalent of PF1's unchained book. It'll benefit from having some time to percolate.

The other thing is that new classes do a lot of heavy lifting. Before Dark Archive, an occult detective would be an Investigator with the Witch multiclass making a deal with some entity for the occult magic to uncover more secrets and maybe the Consult the Spirits skill feat. After Dark Archive, you can make a Thaumaturge with a tome and/or lantern implement, and Investigator can now take Psychic multiclass instead, and can even get an upgraded version of Detect Magic that meshes very nicely with the them. That's in addition to new Occultism skill feats that support the theme.

Kineticist coming out will do a lot more for blaster characters than dedicating a bunch of Sorcerer feats to it.

Anyway, just some rambling thoughts about this stuff.

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My PF1 Kineticists:

Aerokineticist human sadist and misanthrope who used her powers to shut people up by removing the air from around their head.

Aetherkineticist kitsune trickster who did things like recline in midair.

Aetherkineticist dwarf smoker who carried a bunch of knives as ammunition.

Pyrokineticist kitsune cook who used his fire to heat tea, cook, and survive in the bitter trek across the Crown of World.

For fighting unintelligent undead, you can also ask the GM if it's okay to have your attacks represent "incapacitating blows that would be deadly to living creatures"- things like cutting the legs off a zombie. Part of the issue is the game not really having many rules for the sorts of compromises an Urgathoan could make.

I strongly disagree... I like it better than the core class stuff!

It's a martial with multiple cool, unique, upgradeable, and potentially out-of-combat features. It has solid damage, and can use ancestry natural weapons effectively. And, you get a scaling ability that works both in combat and social situations.

Favorite feat: level twenty "I teleport my castle to me". Nothing is more important than style and luxury, and this lets you have a mansion much, much larger than spellcasting does.

Favorite implement: mirror, because it has tons of out-of-combat uses.

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John R. wrote:

Ooo, that's a good and clever one. Thank you.

I'm fond of it, because I'll take any additional alternatives to the thrice-accursed game-warping mess that is flickmace.

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John R. wrote:
Ventnor wrote:

A couple combos that I thought of:

Bell + Wand: Making a foe clumsy means their reflex save are worse.

Bell + Weapon: Similarly, a clumsy foe has lower AC.

Lantern + Wand: This one only works at the end of your adventuring career, but you don't roll a flat check to target a concealed target with an AoE attack. Reveal any invisible foes with the lantern, and then drop a mini-fireball/icestorm/lightning surprise on them.

Mirror + Weapon: Mirror lets you flank with yourself, and to be in more positions to react with Implement's Interruption.

Regalia + Weapon: The Regalia's Paragon Aura is buffing your weapon damage rolls, including the damage from Implement's Interruption (assuming you're holding your regalia in one hand and your implement weapon in the other, and why wouldn't you?).

Awesome! Thank you!

But about this one:

Ventnor wrote:

Mirror + Weapon: Mirror lets you flank with yourself, and to be in more positions to react with Implement's Interruption.

These just don't seem like actual synergies for the implements.

You don't need the weapon implement to flank with yourself if you already have the mirror and I don't think you can really double up on areas where your EV target can trigger Implement's Interruption. Like...if they're within reach, they're within reach.

Although, they do combo nicely if you need to be somewhere else at the same time, so I'll give you that if that's what you meant.

Flanking with yourself (orthogonally, not diagonally) with a weapon implement means that stepping won't get them out of reaction range. It makes non-reach weapon implements a lot more effective.

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John R. wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
John R. wrote:
Wait....Idea....What if one hand is constantly holding an implement and ALL of your scrolls? Is there a limit on how many esoterica you can have in one hand? I really don't think this works but it's worth the shot of throwing it out there.
As mentioned above, you would lose out on Implement's Empowerment bonus damage even if you get your GM to allow it.

"You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit."

I could be mistaken but between Scroll Thaumaturgy and Scroll Esoterica, don't scrolls count as esoterica (or at least the temporary scrolls)? If so, then it should still work. But yeah, overall my idea is reaching quite a lot.

Scroll Esoterica says that your esoterica includes the scraps that you make into the scrolls. The feat is labeled esoterica because it's a feat to make temporary scrolls, and you can't make temporary scrolls if all your materials are confiscated.

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QuidEst wrote:
Besides, I want to necro this thread in five years.

Hey, sorry, I'm a little late.

John R. wrote:
Wait....Idea....What if one hand is constantly holding an implement and ALL of your scrolls? Is there a limit on how many esoterica you can have in one hand? I really don't think this works but it's worth the shot of throwing it out there.

As mentioned above, you would lose out on Implement's Empowerment bonus damage even if you get your GM to allow it.

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graystone wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Perhaps a particular item can only be one implement. So you couldn't have your 'mirror' shield and 'weapon' shield spike.
I want it to be three! Behold my swiss army shield!: a [mirror] shield with a shield augmentation [weapon] and a shield sconce [lantern].

Four, once you count the tome implement the GM throws at your head!

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I'm relieved they aren't better. I'm not a big fan of guns in my fantasy games generally, and the degree to which it works for me strongly ties in with "how much does it feel like flintlock pistols and blunderbusses instead of revolvers".

You can get guns to work, but it's not the go-to option for mechanical reasons. That's exactly where I'd want it.

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Exploit Vulnerability, bonus damage for one-handed weapons wielded alongside an implement: These bonuses can definitely be applied to the weapon. The Mind Smith's weapon is a weapon, and there isn't any additional requirement.

Making it your Weapon Implement: Run it by your GM. The bracelet/keepsake isn't a weapon, so it couldn't be one. The weapon itself... if the GM feels like it's "a new object you've acquired", then it could qualify after a day of downtime. Balance-wise, it's fine (although keep in mind the limitation that it can't leave your hand, which will shut down Implement's Assault). It's not too far from the Call Implement feat.

John R. wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
I'm currently focusing on a build where I have both hands free and attack with a bite, the idea is to start with Wand and then take Regalia, (I don't know what to take as a third choice), I'm trying to convince my GM to allow an Occult Dragon,(BattleZoo), for the flavor, but my second choice will be an iruxi, d8 bite and the attributes work well with Thaumaturge.

Oooo, yeah. Despite everyone going on about Kitsune Foxfire builds, I forgot about all the unarmed, non-hand attacks some ancestries get. Those can be very...."handy". I'll mention those under the brief section with skills, backgrounds and ancestries.

Thank you.

Gnoll is another d8 bite, too.

Scroll Thaumaturgy is good, but the multiclass recommendation seems like an exaggeration. You're going to be stuck at trained Thaumaturge class DC (which you'd avoid relying on in combat), so it's mostly getting you automatic activation on anything that isn't primarily charisma... but Wizard already had that for Arcane, and could get it for any second type of magic with one feat (Witch multiclass) and no stat investment.

We've had errata that says unarmed strikes increase proficiency along with simple weapons.

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Ly'ualdre wrote:

Less a prediction and more a discussion point: how do we feel about the idea of Paizo potentially developing another setting outside of Golarion and the Pact World? Like something akin to Eberron or Forgotten Realms in scope. Or even d20 Modern.

I know Golarion isn't everyone's favorite setting. But would anyone be opposed to a new setting using the same system?

Idea mostly stems from doing something similar to Drift Crisis for PF2. The only thing that make sense, in my head, is maybe a new setting. It could take place in the same universe. Like maybe expanding on what may be happening to Earth and its Star System. Maybe something in a parallel universe perhaps?

Thoughts? Posted it here only because it could fall into a prediction if it came true. But may make a separate thread depending on how expansive the conversation becomes.

Before Starfinder, I would have said "it'll never happen". After Starfinder, I will say, "it'll never happen again". Even then, Starfinder kept and built off of the existing setting and lore.

This is especially true because if somebody at Paizo wanted to make such a thing, it's the perfect thing to launch separately from Paizo under the OGL. See: Jason Bulmahn's Eventide setting. There are other third-party settings, like Indigo Isles for PF2 and Grimmerspace for Starfinder.

Plus... of the people who are interested in PF2's rules but not the setting, how many would be interested in a specific different setting done by Paizo? I imagine a lot of them aren't interested because they prefer their homebrew setting, or they use a setting from another company (whether a D&D setting or a fantasy series), and there's no setting Paizo could make from scratch that would catch their fancy.

If they do announce exactly what you suggested at GenCon, though, I will be very amused at how wrong I got this.

Sorcerer multiclass seems excellent on Thaumaturge, and the class is a better bloodrager base than barbarian.

I like the idea of gnoll with the demonic bloodline for glutton's jaw. Get those temporary hit points while hitting your enemies, and I'd probably combine it with amulet to make them properly tanky.

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Frankly, I also found the later PF1 setting books to be a lot more engaging than the early stuff. Paizo's gotten better and better at writing the setting, and the later books on Nidal or Druma have a lot more interesting details than the old stuff like Cheliax.

The PF2 setting material is the best comprehensive stuff, so I'd start there regardless.

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Amulet could be a censer, with the smoke coming from it blunting blows.

Bell could be a collection of bones clattering against one another. I wanted something that was a bit more ominous. You can also have something that doesn't normally make noise- a crude doll that cries whenever it's squeezed.

Chalice could be an apple or other piece of food that you can take either a small or large bite from.

Lantern has to shed light, but a holy symbol (especially for a deity of knowledge or truth) would work for a pious thaumaturge, or one not above using a relic they found for a faith they don't particularly follow.

Mirror could be a marionette styled after the thaumaturge, or a mask. I'm thinking of having the action be to put a comedy or tragedy mask to their face, and pull it off again, only now there are two- one holding a comedy mask, and one with a tragedy mask. The mask's expression changes depending on which is selected as real.

Regalia could be a conductor's baton.

Tome could be a ledger instead. A difficult to read record of metaphysical debts, with skills provided by different entities paying off debts. Or maybe it is a collection of spirits or souls, like the PF1 feat Spirit Ridden.

Wand could be a scroll that never gets used up.

Weapon could be a practice weapon instead of a real one.

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I'm predicting that the Dark Archives hype has been so big that they're going to announce Dim Records at GenCon.

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Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:
Starstone makes you a god, not a demigod.

Starstone can actually do either. Sometimes people come out with a "partial success" result, so to speak. What that entails varies.

Old_Man_Robot wrote:
John R. wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Is there anything like Object Reading in the occult skill feats? That was my favorite unlock, so I'm wondering if it made the cut.
Yes, it is a 1st level uncommon feat called Read Psychometric Resonance. They brought back about half of the 1e occult skill unlocks and added a couple new ones.

Oh that’s cool! I didn’t know that was in there.

I love the whole psychic detective who can read the murder weapon shtick

A streamer showed it off since then, and it looks like you'd be likely to get a reading of the murder victim from it- useful evidence without giving away too much.

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Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
Will one be able to Manifest the focused totality of one's psionic powers into a weapon like Psylock?


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Is there anything like Object Reading in the occult skill feats? That was my favorite unlock, so I'm wondering if it made the cut.

Easiest fix is running everyone a level ahead. That seems to be about what the difference is- a point of AC, a point of spell DC, an accuracy rune... It'll take it from "TPK every three sessions" to "almost dying every three sessions" without the players needing to totally buckle down and change their style.

Gortle wrote:
lemeres wrote:
With a 24 hour duration, I wanted to think about how this could be used as a plot device... but it isn't that great for that either.
I assume because it has 24 duration you can just keep that slot open and effectively make it permanent[

No, it's only spells that last until next daily prep that allow that. Magnificent Mansion got its duration errata'd from 24 hours specifically so that it could be maintained by continuing to sacrifice slots.

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dmnewearth2100 wrote:
Anyone know if there are any ways to get skill feats similar to the fighters feat Combat Flexibility.

Bribe the GM. But more seriously, no. Even Rogue and Investigator don't get anything like that, so I don't really expect it outside of some sort of capstone-esque feat eventually.

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