Yes, that is fine. It's rare that it will be very useful, though, because you usually want to have at least two actions to cast a spell or cantrip.
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Im thinking giant foxes, potencially from tian xia, as an higher level beast/animal that is used in the kitsune armies or being workship like guardians. I'm not sure what kitsune armies you're talking about? There aren't a lot of primarily kitsune settlements, let alone somewhere large enough to field an army. They're shapeshifters, and thus tend to intersperse with the ancestries they can take the form of. For high-level foxes, we have gumiho at level 17, bul-gae at level 14, and immortal trickster at mythic 11th. None of them are large, but generally one isn't picking a fox thematically for size and power. Lots of shapeshifters, you don't get a lot of simple big animals at high levels outside of dinosaurs. Some good options with what we have are wolf animal companions, finding canine and feline animals and beasts to convert, using beast eidolons, or homebrewing.
Summon a creature that has regeneration, watch it drop to 0 HP every turn and then pop back up? They're dismissed at 0 HP.
Not long ago, I made a comment on Reddit saying that Assurance (Monster Lore) from Tip of the Tongue is worthless against anything at or above level because it's a broad, non-specific lore that shouldn't be getting a lowered DC. There was disagreement with this, which I could not find anything supporting my argument. I could have swore there was a general agreement in these forums or even explicit rules that lores like Bardic Lore and Esoteric Lore do not get lowered DCs but I couldnt find anything. Is there anything supporting my claim or did I completely imagine this? Not that I know of, either for or against. In the case of "Monster Lore", I would personally give a lowered DC against individual creatures that have been particularly monster-like in their actions. Whether that's "terrorizing the populace openly" or "mysterious disappearances have been happening near the old mill", once it reaches the point where you expect Geralt to be called in to deal with it or a consultation from Van Helsing, it gets a -2 to DC from me. For Bardic Lore, it's anything where it seems like there would be a song or play about that individual. For Esoteric Lore... that's vague and strong enough that it's going to be pretty rare that I'd give it- it'd have to be something that matches that particular Thaumaturge's individual brand of nonsense especially well. But I generally expect Thaumaturge characters to provide a little personalized context for what they're doing in-world that's being abstracted by the general mechanics. Now, I don't expect the occasional small reduction in DC to make Tip of the Tongue relevant at rolling about a specific quarry. But if you're fighting a demon, something like recalling that most demons have a weakness related to their "sin" is fair game because that's something any expert would be expected to know. EDIT: "Your encyclopedic knowledge of monsters allows you to quickly recall basic information." I feel like folks are ignoring the flavor text here? It's for basic information. "What can you tell me about demons?" Those are creatures, so it's fair game. The DC isn't especially high for basic information about them. A Slayer with a few levels being able to rattle off an answer without needing to roll or even spend an action is absolutely on-brand.
I'm gonna disagree pretty strongly. 1. The class doesn't work if the character doesn't know what they do. If you rip out the "knowing about monsters" part, then you have somebody who is prepping to fight something while remaining ignorant, and then taking a trophy that they don't know the function of. That's a mess. If you want to make somebody that hunts monsters without knowing about monsters, they shouldn't be using trophies that depend on the monsters' characteristics. Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue are all excellent choices to represent that. 2. Knowing about undead means knowing about all the gods, learning how to tame animals means being knowledgeable about both fey and elementals, and reasonable preparation for sewer slimes means being similarly prepared for cosmic horrors. Knowledge skills covering at least some out of character things is a function of the game system. Just don't roll for things that aren't relevant. It's fine, and restricting everyone else to mechanically support ignorance is... unlikely to result in a better net experience. 3. I'll refer you back to point #1 on this. Even if the scaling lore doesn't have a bunch keying off of it specifically, it's what enables the class to work without being entirely metagame-dependent. I'm fine with not caring for the Assurance/Automatic Knowledge. But it does go out of its way to say that it is for recalling "basic information", as opposed to something to use on difficult quarry. You don't have to use them all the time. 4. It's a scaling versatile lore on a physical-stat martial class. Yeah, it's not your key stat, but you get a +2 from quarry to help make up for it. 5. No thanks. I don't want this pulled out to a feat- it's too central for the class to make sense, and I don't want a feat tax. It's also not overly weak, it's just not Thaumaturge... which is fine. --- Main thing I care about is the first point. I think it's just not a class thematically built for winging it from a place of complete ignorance, even aside from the Monster Lore itself.
Psychic spellcasting removes the need for incantations, not the Auditory trait. Only spells that make sounds have that. Wails of the Damned doesn't work on a deaf target and doesn't work in an area of silence. Psychic doesn't do anything too change that. That's a function of what the spell does and trait requirements, not general casting rules.
Psychic spellcasting removes the need for incantations, not the Auditory trait. Only spells that make sounds have that. We even see The Silent Whisper address this by removing the Auditory trait from Message to make it a purely telepathic spell.
If I were you, I would make a new thread, and maybe link to it from here. "Iconics: Things I'd Like to See" isn't a title that would really help folks find what you did, and we're more than two years from its creation, so it's not really fresh in the mind of the mind of the posters. That'd be the "+" icon under the reply button! And I'm happy to help.
If I were you, I would make a new thread, and maybe link to it from here. "Iconics: Things I'd Like to See" isn't a title that would really help folks find what you did, and we're more than two years from its creation, so it's not really fresh in the mind of the mind of the posters.
Definitely not "edge". I'm tired of the jokes already, and they haven't started.
Transporter accident when beaming back down.
Murder is one way to get killed, but I wouldn't read too much into the blog's use of that word. Product description describes Aroden as "the dead god of humanity whose murder triggered the beginning of the current age!", so it might benefit from being updated to "death"? I know I saw it and assumed that we were getting a pretty major "cause of death" update with the new edition.
Not necessarily, especially if it doesn't have new mechanics, but instead has a remix of old ones. If you're saying as just an archetype, then yeah. But I can confidently say that even if they ever do release a non-playtested class in a non-Gencon book, they would definitely mention it in the book description. It would be a huge waste of sales to hide the biggest selling point.
Trickster Bard is very exciting to me. I'm looking forward to seeing what the first couple of feats are for it. Hoping for a nice focus spell in there! A versatile fey heritage is also appreciated. I know we have the rare fey feats, but having the standard approach available is nice. Of the ancestries, I think Faun is what I'm most looking forward to.
Very excited to be getting a trickster muse for Bard- that sort of thing is absolutely my jam (as most of the "What class do you still want?" threads will attest).
Fair enough- I guess my approach would be either building around the other feats, or swapping weapons once you have Rushing Strike. The only maneuver trait on a d12 weapon is Shove, and that would require a blocking prop to not shove them out of your reach for Daring Reversal. There is also the lower-value option of just using Daring Stunt to move without doing a maneuver to stride with the risky trait- it's not action-economy friendly, but you also don't increase MAP.
There are several feats that require Adrenaline that can't be used or get maximum MAP when you get Adrenaline via press action, like Caroming Charge, which costs 2 actions, Daring Reversal, and Headsmash, which suffers from MAP. I guess I'm not seeing why you'd want those feats anyway? Caroming Charge is normally not combined with a damaging attack, outside "random floor junk" or Rushing Strike. Why would you pair it with a two-handed weapon? Daring Reversal has a similar problem even if you don't have a weapon: you need a non-press source of adrenaline, and that's mostly Daring Stunts. That requires you to have an empty flank spot to move into instead of capitalizing on being flanked. Headsmash is an incapacitation press adrenaline ability that requires grabbed and being next to the same prop as your target. You only take that if that's your exact build anyway. If you're grabbing a two-hander, then the class is there to let you do a variety of maneuvers without hands at a reduced MAP which weapon traits don't normally give on two-handers.
Why would you need Daring Stunt? Just attack someone with your d12 two-handed weapon at no MAP, then use a risky press to inflict grabbed or prone via Athletics without using Grab/Trip or using your hands. Adrenaline doesn't do you any good until you have MAP or want to do something that requires it. Yeah, you're not mobile until Rushing Strike, but that's fine- you still have an action to move and a conditional movement boost.
I was just thinking about the free-hand MAP rule for Athletics maneuvers.
I notice that most of the Risky Press maneuver-like options don't require any kind of free hand, so it seems like you can use them while wielding a two-handed weapon. Generally, the class would like to have a free hand for whenever it does a regular maneuver, but it seems like it's an option. What does something like Wheeling Pull Stunt use? Can you use a free hand to give the pseudo-maneuver agile? If you have a non-maneuver agile weapon, does the pseudo-maneuver gain agile? Can you use your "fist" attack with your foot to get agile even with your hands occupied?
Next up, my favorite idea I came up with for the Share your Slayer and Daredevil concepts thread: Tanuki that is convinced various people's mundane objects are actually powerful magic trinkets that the party casters are too incompetent to recognize. Obviously, such powerful magic needs to be in his hands for being clever enough to recognize it, even if it means cutting it off someone else's. From the Tanuki side, we probably want the Steadfast heritage to get a human shape, and eventually Many Faces to be able temporarily take somebody's place. We will want the Society skill, and we will need to remain untrained in all four magic skills, plus never take Untrained Improvisation. On the Slayer side, we want the most concrete reinforcements we can get. Panoply is out, because saves are too vague. The others all do something more obvious, but if we're going around killing people for their stuff, Bloodseeking Blade is the way to go. Even if most people don't have energy damage or resistance, a club suddenly being able to cut things is pretty obvious. For our first level feats, Peculiar Weaponry seems like an excellent choice to stand out a little. Let's go take a look at advanced weapons, as well as a few simple ones.
From all that, I think a 2nd: So far, we only get resistance-reduction on quarry, so I don't care about Instant Enmity. Pack Slayer doesn't fit the concept, and the only reason the character works outside an evil party is that he keeps picking on people stronger than him. Our weapon doesn't work with Personalized Gear or Shifting Hunt. Salt Stone... Okay, I'd take it in any campaign where incorporeal/regeneration are likely to come up more than twice. Slayer's Tricks requires Wisdom... but it's not like it's a problem to dump that, since the proficiency only ever hits expert. So, Slayer's Tricks or Sudden Pounce. Let's revisit this when we hit the first follow-up for Slayer's Tricks. EDIT: Slayer's Tricks it is. 4th: Spirit Oil is still 1/day, and I'm not taking that for something that only applies on crits. I'm not a Fighter here, and it requires a free hand anyway. Blood for Blood or Blood Rush- Blood Rush feels very fitting here, actually. Eagerly dashing in to get at the holder of the "magic" item. 6th: Spell Slates is the only useful thing we can take, and it lets us make any item into a spell-in-a-can object. 8th: The dreaded level 8. I'm not crafting stuff out of people, two feats are locked, and I don't care about Defensive Hunt. Honestly, let's just go grab Sudden Pounce; a first level feat is better than anything here. 10th: Share Insight is no good for Bloodseeking Blade, and we don't have Instant Enmity, and we don't have anything else to spend our reactions on for Ever Vigilant. Eager Hunter would be good if we could step away, but we can't. I've got nothing here, and we went back to grab the other feat we needed. Maybe Share Insight will be useful with something next level... 11th: Breathing fire or damage reduction? I think we want damage reduction. Share Insight is valuable enough to take. We can upgrade to heavy armor for AC if we want. 12th: We have Spell Slates, so we have to take the upgrade feat. 14th: Bloodburst Phial, obviously. Picturing that in combination with our choice of weapon... grisly. 16th: Unerring Edge is the good option at this level. It's an extra +1, and you can hit invisible creatures accurately. 18th: Obliterate mostly seems like a mechanically bad choice... If we can On The Hunt a Sure Strike, critting for double max damage is pretty, but under those circumstances we could double Honed Strike instead, which we've upgraded to +3. However, Terrifying Bloodlust is the alternative, so I think we just take Obliterate for the style points of getting to say we get max damage on our end-game 4d10 + 3d6 + 3d6 + 7 + 6 = 89 damage (+8 against objects). Actually! Now that I mention objects, we absolutely want Obliterate: objects can't be crit, so Obliterate turns us into a wrecking ball. Once we hit max level, we can break down a solid iron wall (18 hardness, 72 hp) in a single swing. 20th: Eternal Hunt is the only choice here. --- Verdict: We get trophy uses at 1st, 6th, and 11th. It's a little sparse for a build that wanted to collect several, but each one feels like it's a noticeable thing that could be explained by a magic item. Levels 8 and 10 still feel bad. Spell Plates gives a reason to go after (non-occult) casters and really ups the value of daily prep. I like this character. He seems like a real menace. I would definitely play him so long as the group is comfortable with a character interested in killing people for their stuff, as well as the magical ignorance shtick. Solid contender for who I'll playtest with. I'd like to suggest that the class should have a Spell Plates capstone feat available to it, maybe give master spell proficiency and/or a ninth rank spell. By being mutually exclusive with Eternal Hunt, it avoids the issue of casting two high-rank spells in a turn. EDIT: Whoops, missed a major choice for 7th level- the free rune normally picked. It'll normally be fearsome (to penalize the save vs. prone), but when laying low, it'll be hand to be able to turn such a conspicuous weapon into something like a walking stick.
What's the point of giving heavy armor proficiency if there's no level 0 heavy armor? Will some be added in the book this comes in? Otherwise the only way to use heavy armor is with an armor skirt. Is this just to ensure Slayers don't have access to Bulwark since they have terrible reflex saves? If that's the case level 1 armor keeps bulwark off the table while giving some freedom of armor choices. It's to prevent you from starting with free later-level gear that other classes also don't start with. Like them, you switch when you get it. If splint mail was allowed you could get that with typical starting funds and a weapon. Then buy it and swap. That's fine.
The only agile sweep weapon with a maneuver trait is the scourge (which has disarm), unfortunately it also only deals 1d4 nonlethal. Whoops, yeah , disarm isn't on the list of four things with action compression, so it doesn't work well even if you're counting on the d10 damage press.
Vampire: take a metal article from their clothing or jewelry and expose it to sunlight, take a piece of the stake that was used to ensure they were dead, take a page from a book they kept on them,or take a piece of their cloak and expose it to sunlight. Probably most fitting of all, take some of the grave dirt they used or a piece of their coffin- those seem like things you could really use against other vampires. Bandit leader: take a piece of their armor, take something they killed someone for (when that trophy is rotated out, it's because the family of the victim was located to return it to), or keep their bounty poster. Most fitting thing I can think of is to keep their empty coinpurse. Because these trophies aren't something that you can expect to have stolen, some more metaphysical options are available. Take a bit of their shadow, capture some of their reflection in a piece of metal, dip something in their blood (still grisly but less concrete). Collect evidence (more fitting for when you're empowering something that isn't a weapon). Set the soul of a victim trapped by the need for justice free and receive some ghostly token or blessing, with ten minutes being the process of locating such a spirit. Heck, receive a small blessing or token if the appropriate prayers were done before and after vanquishing evil. You mention that taking magic boots is fine and expected. Well, you can also treat the class as one that's able to draw out minor magic that others can't. Those boots might seem mundane to others, but you can draw out a little occult magic to empower something.
So long as you have a hand free, you don't need the maneuver trait- you get agile from your fist attack. But yeah, something like meteor hammer is a good fit. Agile sweep with a maneuver is wild, though. You can move and maneuver, then press-attack someone else with only -2.
Now hold on, forget the rest of this thread, I wanna talk about a Kitsune Necromancer and Tanuki Slayer power couple immediately. It's an idea I had during the Necromancer playtest. The class is very good at making lots of easily-dispatched creatures that look more impressive than they really are, at least for a little bit. That means that you can play an excellent heel, making somebody look really good. Kitsune Necromancer, pick up Alchemist multiclass to take mutagens in order to boost deception and performance. He shows up in disguises to a small village, makes sure there's no actual hero already there, and starts terrorizing the local populace. (I'm thinking a bit of a laid back theater vibe outside of the role.) Shortly after, a dashing heroic human swordsman shows up, hot on the heels of a vile necromancer. In reality, it's the kitsune's tanuki boyfriend in disguise. (I'm thinking much more ego-driven and aggressive outside of the role.) Stage a dramatic confrontation with the necromancer, really selling how "difficult" the zombies are to fight through, and eventually defeat the foul necromancer. The hero basks in the rewards and adoration of the people for a few days before an urgent runner from another village shows up asking for the famous and well-regarded undead-slaying hero. He "reluctantly" accepts any aid that the village can provide him to end this menace, and the two head off to enjoy some time together between cons. The tanuki is the one who really gets a thrill out of it, while the kitsune is along for the ride and learned just enough necromancy to make thralls. Swashbuckler had much more of a personable "face" aspect to the hero role, but Slayer can do some impressive action economy without buffs, and the Consecrated Panoply or spirit damage Blood-Seeking Blade can both do a better job of passing for a holy warrior.
Both martial classes getting "cast two spells every round" as a capstone is very funny to me.
Hang on. Haaang on. What do we really want on Daredevil, at least in terms of offense? We want the strongest agile attack we can get to stack MAP reduction, and we want good athletics for our maneuvers. Bestial Mutagen is incredible for this. We get +1 above curve athletics item bonus, +1 above curve attack bonus, agile claws that beat weapon damage at level 11, and we're only paying with our reflex, acrobatics, and stealth? Going with Kholo, we can sacrifice our wisdom score to have +4 Str, +3 Dex, +2 Int, +1 Con, +0 Cha, -1 Wis at the start of a free archetype game so that we can multiclass archetype into Alchemist. In a regular game, level 6 was pretty dead anyway, so we can wait to boost Int a second time until 5th, and we'll delay Scrambling Roll until 10th. Once we hit 11th level, we're golden. We're getting our extra damage die a level or two before everyone else, we have near-Fighter accuracy or better on maneuvers, and we fall apart like a wet paper bag the minute any of our saves is targeted. That last one isn't good, but it's certainly thematic. Stacking that up with the circumstance bonus to trip from Great Kholo, we're doing pretty well. I know that we are passing up Wrestler with this, but dang.
Huh, that's funny to see. *quietly updates my false villain kitsune necromancer and false hero tanuki disaster scam couple to have the tanuki be a Slayer instead of a Swashbuckler* I hadn't even thought of allies going down. It's certainly dramatic to have the Slayer burst into action when an ally falls unconscious, but I can see them switching it to enemies-only as an easy fix. But hey, we've got a full year where we'll have the Necromancer out and this version of the ability. (Thralls including a "don't trigger abilities on reaching 0 or being destroyed" would be even better proofing, and prevent enemy reactions from causing issues.)
Yep. The risky-press options seem like they're mostly maneuvers, so I guess it's a way to get double-agile on them. Ah, I think that's what I was missing from them- I forgot the free built-in agile on athletics checks! With Athletics/Acrobatics being +2 ahead of a strike and double-agile, you're only at -1 vs. a no-MAP strike. I would probably want the risky press grapple, since that's the maneuver that feels best to end your turn on. I'd probably use it on turns when I didn't have to move up. I had crit spec club in the back of my mind, but yeah, you do need an ancestry crit-spec for it. Frying pan is one-handed and at least crits like a martial weapon. Accompanying Strike and Hit or Miss seem relevant, as well as Wrestler archetype Combat Grab. One thing I missed was the flexibility features. The first one is useless, since I'm permanently locked into Breakaway Attack. The second one is a bonus risky feat 14th or lower. I'd probably pick up Hit of Miss because the 14th level ones don't feel useful, 12th doesn't have any, that's the only one at 10th, 8th only has the terrible Escape Shuffle, and if I go any lower I'll feel sad. It seems like the capstone flexibility features has a typo? It changes from risky to press for the requirements. If it's meant to expandd options,bit should probably be risky or press, so that locking in a bonus feat by using it as a pre-req doesn't lock you out of getting the capstone. Thanks for stopping by; I appreciate the insight! I can see a few more approaches I might enjoy after that.
I couldn't let Slayer get all the fun! Let's go ahead and see what we can do with Daredevil. As before, I don't really have a lot of existing characters that fit this in particular. I'd like to do a Great Kholo with a bite focus, and maybe something agile. Seeing if Clawdancer can fit in might be interesting, but archetyping should probably get saved for last. Let's just go ahead and get started with Great Kholo. We'll be athletics/strength, which means we need to have dexterity secondary and probably tertiary constitution. We'll gently sprinkle in one mental stat as the other tertiary. Crunch is our only relevant kholo feat. 1st: First off, we need a risky feat. We will also want a press action so that we can benefit from adrenaline.
From those, it's reasonable to consider Breakaway Attack for if we just want to beat somebody up and still get risky perks. Wheeling Attack gives us a press that we can use- move up and trip, followed by grapple with reduced MAP against reflex? Unfortunately, off-guard doesn't apply to that but it does apply to AC. Lets go with Breakaway Attack. That means our Press for accuracy is Pressing Pummel. Move, trip, attack at effective -2. It'd be nice to get Scrambling Retreat for better AC, but we'll keep it in mind later. 2nd: Why roll to hit when Caroming Charge gives us multi-target auto-damage? Heck, we can use Breakaway Attack to get our regular attack and then nyoom for guaranteed follow-up damage against anything without a reaction. 4th: Bouncing Hurl is interesting, giving us a two-target Bouncing Hurl for ranged. Can't do this with Caroming Charge, though, so let's see what else there is. Daring Reversal isn't bad, but it's press, and your first action can almost get you out of flanking without issue. Exhilarating Athlete gives us a slow climb with adrenaline and better leaping, but I don't really think that'll come up much. High-Flying Tumble is Athletics leap-tumble, but we have Caroming Charge to get through somebody's space. Wall Slam needs two props. I guess this is probably a good level to pick up Scrambling Retreat. 6th: Double Breakaway is an extra action for one die of damage and a weak crit effect. Headsmash gives us a grapple follow-up to try and stun lower-level enemies. Rushing Stride gives us move-and-strike as a risky action, but we've off-guard against everyone else. Mainly for a boss...? Weapon Twist Stunt is acrobatics. Nothing I really want, but Rushing Stride or Bouncing Hurl can sit around for when it's the right circumstance. 8th: We can't use Accompanying Strike because it's weapon-based. Escape Shuffle is just... when do you need this? Heightened Awareness is a "twice in a campaign" feat, and again, we have Caroming Charge to get some damage in against enemies we can't target well. Scrambling Roll, though, is giving us +2 on reflex saves as a reaction- not a bad deal. We will go with that. 10th: Deadly Advantage seems like something we needed to build towards earlier. Wait... nope. You have no way to use this in-class, and need somebody else to apply the conditions. (Trip Up is a two-action press with a condition that doesn't last through next turn.) Deadly Advantage should probably be reworked or removed. Hit or Miss is a fun one to pull out in emergencies- especially if you still have a hero point. We'll go with that, since I don't think we're going to be spending actions on one-round temp HP. 12th: Fortify Self is one round an hour? Pass. Knee to the Nethers... doesn't need to specify not needing a free hand, that's normal for unarmed attacks? Great feat, though- getting grapple with a conditional attack in the same action with delayed MAP increase is a very solid Press option. Next is multi-trip, so Knee to the Nethers it is. 14th: Freewheeling Strike is a lot of actions for something so conditional. Opportunistic Press Stunt is your standard press/risky/size-restricted. Stride, reposition, and if an ally is there, they can strike. Shattering Breakaway is a two-action Breakaway to smash a bottle and do bleed with Enfeeble. Weird that only now does something work with Deadly Advantage. Well, this one seems worth it for the debuff, so let's grab it. 16th: We do not have the crit-spec or damage to justify gambling so hard on a crit with Risky Overextension. Deadly Rush isn't for something we're using much. Storm of Debris it is. 18th: Lucky Spark is near-permanent roll twice with +2 on saves. Sounds like this takes the place of any legendary saves, so we kind of have to take it. 20th: Double Scrambling Retreat is funny. But Reckless Abandon gives us no restriction Quickened. That means we can Shattering Breakaway into Caroming Charge every round after the first. That's the strongest capstone feat I've seen. The third one is great, but obviously can't compare. --- Verdict: It feels weird that we went in with the intent to do maneuvers and bite, and we ended up chucking junk at people and bumping into them instead. We fall back on maneuvers and bite whenever we deal with reactive strike. Letting unarmed strikes work better with the class would be nice- make Accompanying Strike support unarmed strikes as well. What's up with Deadly Advantage, though? You can't get bonus damage from it for another four levels without outside help. As somebody who doesn't see much use in reposition and shove, I'm glad the class still has enough stuff for me to do. I really like Caroming Charge giving early guaranteed damage, although I'll admit it might be more appropriate at sixth level. That said, that's that. I think any other Daredevil I built would pick almost the exact same feats, with very little consideration for the others. I'm not all that interested in maneuvers, and Daring Stunt with Audacious Combatant is what it takes to get me to engage with them, but I'm not going to be following up my maneuver with another maneuver if I can help it. Thus, this is a one-character thread for my one Daredevil build.
I think RAI probably not, but I honestly think it should. I don't know if Paizo made it like this for the playtest, but I feel the class relies too heavily on shove as a mechanic when I feel it should encompass all Athletics maneuvers. I think shove is normally not useful (especially compared to grapple or trip), so it's being made into a minor damage maneuver so that they're all on more equal footing.
All right, let's go for a Warded Mail start instead! Warded Mail is interesting because instead of wanting energy damage to trigger weaknesses, we want piercing or slashing to resist common physical damage. We'll get a little slashing resistance from full plate at 7th, so we'll focus on getting higher piercing resistance from the trophy. Just a quick check- do we get more resistance than a Barbarian? Well, we get it eight levels earlier, and it scales to 11 instead of 7-ish, at the cost of being lower on the secondary. We also get +1 AC from heavy armor. (Obviously, Guardian covers this much better, getting all physical resistances, so we will have to see how well we do on other cool abilities.) Good enough for me! We're building out a sturdy brute with this, so we'll go with Kholo. Normally, I grab the big bite attack for this sort of thing, but Slayer doesn't want you using unarmed strikes. We'll go with Kholo Weapon Familiarity to get access to the Spirit Thresher and its crit spec. ... Wait, hang on. Even if we get weapon proficiency from our ancestry, we can't make it our bloodseeking blade later without burning a first-level feat that gives us proficiency anyway? Well, let's see if we care about our first-level feat or not. We can always just switch to something martial at 11th or drop the sweep trait that makes up the advanced budget difference. 1st: Spiked Surcoat is just fun. I like the unfairness of dealing plink damage back to enemies. We'll use our starting trophy to add a little spirit damage, in keeping with our spirit thresher theme. 2nd: Personalized Gear is tempting for five feet of movement. Comfort trait is only useful until 7th, but it is style points. 4th: Nothing here is as good as picking up Sudden Pounce to get Off-Guard on closing attacks, but Blood for Blood would be thematic. 6th: Let's see... Relentless Counterstrike is a 10% chance for each attack when we use Armored Shelter to refund us the action. Wall of Will is weird- my quarry probably doesn't want to pick a fight with me anyway, because I've got broad physical resistance against it. Let's go with Relentless Counterstrike, since that's increasing the value of something I'm already doing. 8th: Don't need Armored Fortress- I don't even know what I'm supposed to do while not attacking or moving. Pick up buff spells to cast, I guess? Once again, 8th level feels dead. Go back to first or second level and pick up something we passed up- Instant Enmity, probably. 10th: Share Insight lets me buff allies for a quarry fight with a flat resistance 5 to everything? That sounds nice. 11th: Bloodseeking Blade, obviously. We need an offensive boost to justify being Slayer instead of Guardian. 8th level feat is so dead, we can take a first level feat just to keep the flavor of Spirit Thresher. 12th: 14th: Bloodburst Phial, even more obviously. Open Wound feels like it needs that bleed support to come earlier- the only place it shows up is 12th, competing with "being able to have more than a single quarry". 16th: Man, these upgrades just feel lackluster. "Get +2 to non-reflex area saves when spending an action" is... well, it's not bad, but it feels like that should be level 8. I want to be able to use it against a haunt and an AoE Fear, get a little mileage out of it. At level 16, it feels like I've just spent a whole lot of levels missing it. I'm just grabbing Open Wound so Bloodburst Phial also makes enemies off-guard. 18th: Obliterate feels better with a d12 weapon. 20th: Spend my reaction to get... let's see, use a reaction for +2 AC and reflex every round? I would be less impressed if it didn't work with a d12 weapon. I guess that gives us Guardian AC. Make a one-action strike with +2 to hit? That's Fighter accuracy. Actually, I kinda like that. We've can flexibly pick which we want, and we still have the actions to do both if we want. Shame that it locks out Haste, though. Oh, we do get to go retrain Relentless Counterstrike while we're at it. --- Verdict: Bloodseeker Blade's 3d6 damage and Bloodburst Phial are the only significant things that we have over just playing a two-handed Guardian who never uses their taunt. That's pretty significant, though. Oh, and better/earlier weapon specialization! I forgot about that part; that moves the damage difference up from 11th to 7th. Guardian doesn't pull ahead on armor proficiency until 9th level, so that doesn't leave any point where we're left wondering why we're playing Slayer instead. We mainly care about quarry because we can grant the party resistance 5. Actually, hang on. We don't care about trophies at all after first level. We hunt one thing with piercing damage for resistance, and one damage type for our blade sometime before 11th level. If we want to get a painbow spread for advanced-prep weaknesses, sure, but magical painbow runes area already going to cover that. In that case... we only really care about quarry for combat effects (mainly ally resistance), so we want both enmity feats instead of double quarry. Overall, I think this feels better than Old Tom Bones. I might play this, and I think the fun would really start to show once get to start seeing the little unfair damage differences stacking up.
I missed that the spells have the Relentless trait, which maybe explains the lack of higher rank spells, and why the capstone costs your reaction every turn instead of giving perma-haste. Since I'm building mostly around out of combat utility and the low DCs rather than trying to make combat spells work, I guess it's not very exciting to me, and I'd enjoy actually getting 7th and 8th rank slots as normal. I do get that it's the more boring outcome, though.
I want Trophies to offer access to specific abilities, blue mage style.Like what Dr.Aspects suggests, I wanna use my Trophies to cast Monster abilities. I want to get specific. I don't know what types of abilities you can safely allow copying. Vision is a good one, so long as it's reasonably clear that it doesn't include gaze attacks. You do have a good stretch of levels where Slayer potentially demolishes any shapeshifters or illusionist plot if they hunt a mid-level outer planes creature, but that's at least a niche pairing. At best, you could extend it to other senses. Movement speed needs to be limited until permanent flight is available, and it's probably giving too good of a burrow speed for PCs. I guess you can have a list of how much movement you get for each speed, and levels they work? Resistance is already covered, and more generally accessible. Immunties are very high-level only, as we've seen from Kineticist. Special attacks are obviously off the table, as are general "abilities". Giant boss attacks, Cyclops auto-success on anything, Bone Croupier once-a-minute fortune/misfortune... I guess there are common unarmed strikes? You could have a standard set of claw, jaw, horn, slam, hoof, wing, etc. with standardized die sizes that you can get if the creature had one. Something akin to Bestial Mutagen with more normal damage dice and no drawbacks. I don't really want the innate spell feats converted to require killing a caster/magical creature with the spells you want. I guess I'm just not seeing a whole lot of situations where you could give the freedom of "get this category of thing from a monster" that wouldn't quickly be a top five cheese strat, require GM permission, or need to be "check against a predetermined list or formula for PC-balanced versions". Maybe I'm overlooking something, though. Or maybe I'm overthinking it, and it's "gimme a giant list of ten-to-twenty options from the standard Monster Core glossary abilities, and let me have one of them once I meet a level pre-req".
Man, Arm Bloodburst Vial is pretty wild, even for a once-a-day.And it isn't even once-a-day, it's once per 10 minutes. If you have time to pause between fights you can basically open every encounter with that thing. Whoops, conflated that with something else while bouncing back and forth. Nice to be able to get a couple uses out of it in a day!
This is great to hear! The rough preview clarification makes it a lot more clear how Thaumaturge's weaknesses work, and how being prepared with the real weakness is still advantageous for them (being able to stack that with a personal antithesis).
Old Tom Bones, Perceptive Catfolk Slayer. We want to play a wily old catfolk who has as many types of vision at his disposal as possible thanks to a collection of monster eyes. For Catfolk stuff, Nine Lives Catfolk makes a lot of sense for our old catfolk who's lived through it all. Cat Nap gives us benefits for dozing off, and we might want Catfolk Dance to give us a better shot at that fire-breathing doing something if we decide to go Dex-based. Otherwise, Cat's Luck is always good. Stats: We want an accuracy stat, plus Wisdom secondary to max out our Perception. For Slayer, obviously we're going with Chymist's Vials. Here's where we take a break to try and figure out what has vision worth collecting.
Funny Mentions:
Okay, let's see...
--- Level 1: Well, Drink Adaptation Serums doesn't really fit most games. Bloodscent is nice for picking up another weird sense, but we'd be going off of tertiary Intelligence to use it. We need a hand free for the vials (well, let's probably go with a two-hand trait weapon), so shields are no good. Saved by Sudden Pounce- this is perfect! Looks like we're investing in Athletics. Level 2: ... Pack Slayer to scoop up those Air Scamps if we missed them at first is tempting. We care a lot about specific monsters, after all. But since we're already investing in Wisdom and playing somebody called "Old Tom Bones", I think we need to go with Slayer's Tricks for some occult cantrips. What cantrips? Well, we're already breathing fire, so Eat Fire isn't bad- we can look into grabbing Smoke Vision to bypass the drawback to ourselves. ... Should we get a backup ranged attack using our second cantrip? Yes. Am I getting Detect Metal instead because killing an Asp of Grief would feel terrible? Also yes. Level 4: Condition removal isn't really in keeping with our vision theme, and a minute to remove a condition makes Cure-All unlikely to ever be worth a feat. Probably go with Blood for Blood to make Old Tom Bones sturdier. Well... not that much sturdier, since temporary hitpoints are only half level, but at least it's rolled in with an attack? I don't know that we're hunting quarry enough for Blood Rush, and Apply Spirit Oil is only once a day to spend an action getting something that only does something on a crit. Level 6: Spell Slates, naturally! We'll have to go look at the occult list. Level 8: Catalyzing Flask is a big disappointment here. Witch gets a scaling number, and they're potions instead of elixirs. A feat normally gets you four free elixirs. What the heck is going on with getting one elixir for a feat- and then making you pay for it once, so it practically needs to be below your level instead of on-level? Alternatives are quarry-exclusive when-crit reaction, a shield feat we can't use, and a crafting feat. Field-Forged Tools it is, but it feels like a dead level. Level 10: Share Insight. Precise-sense quarry-detection is hard to argue with, with a possible vision upgrade. Level 11: Blood-Seeking Blade, probably. Extra damage and two-action accuracy strike. Level 12: Double Quarry is really nice, and we also want Expanded Spell Slates. We seem to be missing the final spell slates feat to get 7th and 8th rank spells, though? I would take Spectral Lenses, but... Expanded Spell Slates gives me eight hours of See the Unseen, a higher level slot from Spell Slates, and more spells later. It feels like Spectral Lenses should be 10th level. Level 14: ... Man, Arm Bloodburst Vial is pretty wild, even for a once-a-day. However, I need Double Quarry so I can actually run into a quarry more regularly. Level 16: Maaan, 30ft. cone is a level 16 feat? Level 16? And it's just a range increase? No increase to d6s, no "you can make allies immune to it", nothin'? Arm Bloodburts Vial it is. Level 18: Terrifying Bloodlust, I guess? Maybe three-action max-damage strike is better than I'm realizing. Level 20: These capstones are bad. Quickened as a reaction instead of the usual permanent quickened, or... what, the ability to get quickened on casting only when a creature dies? I guess we'll go with Eternal Hunt and get rid of our Eat Fire cantrip in order to get our fire-breathing or accuracy-stab down to one action and one reaction. Verdict:
Having something be once a day is okay if you get value from it, but a once-a-day ability that only does something if you get a crit within a certain window...? Eh. Similarly, quarry-only feats seem like you're going to be missing out on them a lot of the time, and making it further restricted to something like "crit by your quarry" doesn't help. All in all, neat, but I don't think I would actually play this character, or any other with the vials.
Dang, is that not official? I thought that was at least implied with an "as usual" in a few places. Kind of a knock on a whole Lineage if multiple classes get the benefits baseline.Huh? Where are you getting that rule from? Many feats do that for skill training, but there's a reason they have to spell it out every time.We look forward to seeing what everyone puts together!Crunchier than I usually go, but when I saw Daredevil gets Diehard at level one I initially thought "Well it's redundant with a Grimspawn Nephilim then," but actually you can just swap it like usual for anythign that doubles a feature, so now you've got a free general feat at level one, on any base ancestry! Normally reserved for humans! Gives Death Defying a new meaning! "As usual for backgrounds, if you would gain the trained proficiency rank for one of these skill from your class at 1st level, you instead become trained in another skill of your choice." - Free Heart feat for elves It's very specifically background trained skills, not bonus feats.
It's that time again! The part of the playtest you all know and love: the part where Quid builds some characters! This isn't a case where I've got a specific existing character concept that could be represented by the new class- I don't usually play "monster slayers", and all my serial killer types are over in Starfinder. Looking through the signature tools for some inspiration...
Well, let's go ahead and start with the new Old Tom Bones, and see where we get!
We look forward to seeing what everyone puts together!Crunchier than I usually go, but when I saw Daredevil gets Diehard at level one I initially thought "Well it's redundant with a Grimspawn Nephilim then," but actually you can just swap it like usual for anythign that doubles a feature, so now you've got a free general feat at level one, on any base ancestry! Normally reserved for humans! Gives Death Defying a new meaning! Huh? Where are you getting that rule from? Many feats do that for skill training, but there's a reason they have to spell it out every time.
Wellll... I definitely cut some corners incorrectly before, and I do want to take the time to figure out the correct answer. Probability gets messy, and it's good to refresh myself on it occasionally. If you expect an event to happen 1 in 400 times, you expect it to take 400 tries, but the probability that it happens in 400 tries is actually about 64%. The expected value isn't where you get nearly a 100% of something having happened- it's just the likeliest number of tries something will take. The probability of rolling two d20s and getting two 20s is 1 in 400, but that requires rolling two dice, not one. However, we aren't rolling two dice 400 times independently, we're rolling over and over until two sequential rolls both give us 20. Doing a bit of math that I had to look up, it looks like you actually expect it to take 420 rolls to get two consecutive twenties. So, 42 minutes in-game. Fortunately, just treating it as rolling two dice until a pair of twenties gives a result pretty similar to rolling one die sequentially until two twenties were rolled in sequence.
I'll certainly do the same and ask the GM to, but better starting trophy rules by default would be nice.
It starts with a level 1 elixir, and you have to buy an upgrade, of your level or lower. So never a dead feat, but definitely surprisingly weak compared to Witch's scaling number of free potions on a lower feat and Alchemist archetype's four free alchemical items.
Definitely intended to include giants, given they're listed as viable trophy options. Good catch, John. All (higher-level) humanoids are viable trophy options; you just don't have monster knowledge about them.
That sounds more like a little issue. Avenger covers the old iconic Slayer- a religious individual carrying out violence on behalf of their faith, through single-target precision damage. That leaves "Slayer" open. Are folks going to be confused? Probably not? I only ever thought about Slayer's Ankou's Shadow archetype. It wasn't a very memorable class, and Ranger picked up the action-to-target-for-precision bit years ago.
The Daredevil is a fragile martial. It's only 8HP and it only accesses Light Armor. Going with a STR Daredevil is going to place you as durable as a Cloistered Cleric with Mystic Armor (AC-wise) from lvl. 1-4. Your math is off on this one, I think? Mystic Armor gives +1 AC, and light armor gives +2. So you'll have +1 better AC than any cloth-caster who's got the same secondary Dex, even after they self-buff.
Chymist's Eye from Chymist's Vials has the following reinforce ability: "Reinforced You also gain one special vision ability the creature the trophy was claimed from had, such as darkvision or a cloud giant’s cloudsight, for the duration." All of the other starting reinforce options give you something you can use right away, but this one relies on an uncommon characteristic. It's not too hard to hunt a darkvision creature at low levels, but if you start at high levels, you're really missing out, and you can't even go pick up something you "missed". Don't get me wrong, I'd love to keep the cool, unique vision upgrade trick! But maybe at least include darkvision as a starting default? That doesn't solve the high-level issue, but starting out without it makes Chymist's Vials stand out as a really rough start. When you're not dealing with your quarry, the only thing you get is a 1/minute weaker Breathe Fire.
Sounds clear cut for area effects. What about non-area effects, such as a ray or other magical projectile?So if my character is 10 feet away from an active dispelling globe and casts lightning bolt directly through the middle of it, does any lightning come out of the back of the globe? Why or why not? Also clear-cut. If the target isn't in the globe, you can target them normally without interference, even if they're on the other side.
Needing to clear four stages takes, at worst, two nat 20s in a row. At one roll per round, the expected length of time is 400 rounds, or 40 minutes. Exactly. Even at level 1 with a Con penalty and the full drained 4, a nat 20 will still crit-succeed against against DC 17, and that's the worst-case scenario. Tracking moving up and down the track is a pain for the statistics, so I just took the simplified worst case and figured that out. That worst-case scenario is about 40 minutes to clear, and pretty much any PC is going to have better odds than that, so even overnight rest is being a little harsh. |