QuidEst's page

Just searching "druid" in Galaxy Guide turns up present-time druids elsewhere (park druids and urban druids), so I can very confidently say that "hundreds of displaced druids" does NOT mean "there are no more druids".

At some point all high level, intelligent, well equipped humanoid or similar enemies (and PCs) should be carrying a level 7, 60gp, L bulk Greater Revealing Mist. Two actions to draw and activate and reduce everything invisible in a 30’ cone to concealed, no matter what magic it’s using.

But no one does this. guess_I’ll_die_then.jpg meme

Partly, it's not knowing/remembering alchemical tools. Partly, it's because anything invisible can move out of the area and resume invisibility. (Mostly the former; I don't think I've come across the item before.)

Hmm thanks, I see benefits in using Hidden mind with Heightened Invisibility as opposed to Disappearance. Mostly because I can use a single casting of an 8th level spell and combine it with 2-3 Heightened invisibility's per day and get similar effects. Id rather not use 2-3 Disappearances as those 8th level spell slots are quite strong I could cast other spells.

Yeah, if you need it for multiple uses throughout the day rather than one big stealth sequence, then it's hard to argue with the big discount of heightened Invisibility. Plus, leaving other senses unaffected is also less likely to cause a headache.

Veil of Privacy is uncommon but a curriculum spell for Ars Magica school.

(Runelords, too, but that’s a rare school.)

Good point. "Making sure the GM is okay to deal with super-invisibility" is still a good idea. Citation: my experience playing PF1.

Hidden Mind will attempt to counteract See the Unseen and Truesight, as they are both revelation spells. It's exactly the answer provided to your question, and uncommon so GMs can decide where they want the detection/counter-measure arms race to end. As mentioned, Veil of Privacy works too (with less advantage), and is uncommon for the same reason.

If you're rocking high-rank spells, moving from Invisibility to Disappearance is a good idea, since other precise senses aren't rare then.

I'm looking forward to playing both, with pretty minimal crossover. SF2 could use some extra ancestries for a while, but I'm mostly looking forward to the two systems not requiring much extra learning from GMs or players.

It will also be nice having updated rules. SF1 was fun, but it was really weird how they only ever released one player class, the Operative. There were plenty of NPC classes, like Soldier or Mechanic, but those just weren't the same.

Besides- getting enough turns worth of spells means that you can play a character who tips the scales a little further every single round- you can get an interesting enough character out of that idea.

I'm not going to bother with general damage buffs and debuffs. They're a pain to look up, and Barbarian is doing fine. I'm also not going to bother with any debuffs that don't make the Barbarian look better- slowing an enemy down doesn't make the Barbarian more accurate against them, for instance.

Status, circumstance, item. Bonus, penalty.

- Status bonus, covered.
- Status penalty, covered.

- Circumstance bonus, covered.
Circumstance penalty, covered.

- Item bonus, covered by expected equipment. You can push that further by taking Alchemist dedication and providing a mutagen for an extra +1 at some stiff penalties.
- Item penalty, this is what you're missing. Spells don't generally give item bonuses or penalties, so you need something that modifies an enemy's gear. Shoddy items give a -2 penalty to either attack or AC depending on their function, and Curse of Lost Time applies an unlimited duration curse to an item that makes it shoddy. You'll probably want Reach Spell to cast that from further back than melee, though.

- Resistance: Resist Energy, Death Ward, Energy Aegis. From off-list, Mountain's Resilience.
- Weakness: See above.

- Flat checks: Cast Blur or heightened Invisibility on them, as well as True Target to negate miss chance against an enemy.

- Quickened: Haste

I feel for the Runelord anathema is to really stick to your gut reaction when you read it the first time.

When I read "manipulate minds" to me that means mental compulsions, like command, suggestion, dominate. Something that forces you to do something that you wouldn't otherwise.

That feels a bit too narrow- if somebody magically makes me feel unnatural fear, I'd definitely consider that "manipulating my mind" even if it's not a compulsion. The anathema isn't "controlling minds".

QuidEst wrote:

Whoops, I missed that this had been spun off into its own thread. Captain Morgan has beaten me to the punch- it's mostly a format change, with categories of creatures getting a big description, and the individual creatures within that category getting some details about what distinguishes them within the category.

The reason that Bulettes get so much more space by your estimation is that they're stand-alone monsters, and don't have a separate description section that you're missing.

Bugbears aren't listed as goblins, and they get very little for their lore entry, so that doesn't fully track.

Yep. My impression is that Bugbears are just not as prominent in PF2, and weren't given much space as a result. Maybe it's because the three-goblinoid spread treads a little close to D&D, or maybe it's because the other two found their niche successfully and Bugbears didn't. Hobgoblins and Goblins are both doing well for themselves on lore quantity.

I certainly can't claim that none of the creatures have less lore. I know some got more, like kobolds getting more fleshed out (at least in the remaster).

Out of curiosity, I checked Archives of Nethys for a quick scroll through Bestiary 1 creatures with no category. That was 27 creatures. Of those, 22 were multi-paragraph lore entries (not counting any sidebars). The 5 single-paragraph creatures tended to have long statblocks. The filter doesn't include any creatures republished in Monster Core, but that kept it to a manageable length.

Whoops, I missed that this had been spun off into its own thread. Captain Morgan has beaten me to the punch- it's mostly a format change, with categories of creatures getting a big description, and the individual creatures within that category getting some details about what distinguishes them within the category.

The reason that Bulettes get so much more space by your estimation is that they're stand-alone monsters, and don't have a separate description section that you're missing.

(Alghollthu snip)

Hey, just chiming in to say that the difference between the amount of lore text provided for the 3.5 Aboleth and the PF2 Alghollthu is actually a lot more equal than you're presenting!

The 3.5 Aboleth is a more-or-less standalone monster- maybe some variant stat block changes. So, the lore is all right there. You're comparing with the Alghollthu Master (Aboleth), which is just one creature of a category. Grabbing the category description as well...

In bygone millennia, aquatic monsters known as alghollthus used their occult powers to conquer and rule vast swaths of the world. Alghollthus shaped their servitors and other creatures using mental manipulation and physically transformative magic. The rulers of the alghollthus, the so-called “veiled masters,” further shaped entire societies by assuming the forms of those they controlled.

In time, the alghollthus grew frustrated with upstart surface societies and meddling gods. They used incredible magical power to call forth a cataclysm, hoping to destroy the rebellious societies they'd manipulated. Yet they miscalculated the will to survive of those they treated as their pawns, and in time the world recovered, this time free of alghollthu influence.

Today, the alghollthus have mostly remained within the deep aquatic realms where they still rule without question. Yet they have not abandoned their plots entirely, and the reemergence of servitors like faceless stalkers suggests that the alghollthus have turned their hateful eyes to the surface once again.

Ancient Influences
The veiled masters influenced the ancient Azlanti, and it was they who invoked the apocalypse of Earthfall to destroy Azlant when humanity grew too prideful. That this act also called down the magical Starstone, an artifact capable of transforming mortals into gods, was an ironic turn of events considering the alghollthus' intolerance for faith.

Other Alghollthus
While the veiled masters are the rulers of alghollthu society, they are not the most powerful of their kind. Greater, more mysterious creatures that function as organic thought networks, immense aquatic engines of war, or specialized extractors of forgotten secrets dwell among their sunken cities. Meanwhile, the world above remains infested with creatures that were originally created by the alghollthus but have long since drifted away from their aquatic progenitors to become their own sinister monstrosities.

So instead of six paragraphs versus one (I'm not counting the separate sentence about languages, since that's part of the stat block), it's six paragraphs versus six, with one being specific to the individual type of Alghollthu. The 3.5 version gives more of a physical description and behavior, while PF2 relies on the art and specific abilities to carry that. PF2 gives more historical and societal information, while 3.5 gives more ecological details. There's certainly a difference in focus, but the actual amount being provided is pretty similar.

It's the same deal with Hobgoblins, where the details are provided in the category, and each individual Hobgoblin statblock just contains enough to distinguish them from the others. I don't know where you're checking, but Archives of Nethys puts that information underneath the statblock so that it isn't something you have to check separately. In the book itself, it'll be at the front of the creature's section and hard to miss.

She should be a hobgoblin. The first hobgoblin iconic, with the class that best represents her. Why not? She already is creating discussion on her design.

Hobgoblins are already Commander-flavored, so I feel like making one the iconic Commander would be a bit bland and one-note.

This is an off-topic tangent, but it's something I enjoy talking about.

Perpdepog wrote:

Firstly, thanks for answering my question; I appreciate it. Secondly ... does it? I'm still not seeing it. All that says to me is that the magic of this world is intended to fill a narrative role of quick problem-solver rather than all-day power spike. Spells are supposed to be deployed as tools for finding a solution to a problem which can be completed in a minute, or maybe ten, with things like rituals intended for longer-term solutions.

Ostensibly, the version of Gloarion in which these spells can last an hour and the world where they last one a minute are the same world, so why has magic changed? So does it actually make sense that these spells are all quick problem solvers? Even if we do accept that these spells were always shorter, duration and different methods were used in PF1, PF2 is left feeling less like a living world because it lacks pages dedicated to longer-term uses of magic. There are hardly even guidelines for making new rituals, much less a tome of such spells.

Golarion isn't actually defined by the rules. "Ostensibly, the version of our universe in which electrons have orbits around a nucleus is the same as the one where they form a probability cloud around a nucleus"- both are models representing something for convenience. The change is not so much, "Unseen Servant went from lasting hours to only lasting ten minutes at most" as it is, "It's more balanced to represent the duration of Unseen Servant as shorter and requiring active focus". In Golarion-the-setting, mages direct invisible forces to do their bidding in a variety of ways. The old representation where mages could do so effortlessly for hours at a time with almost no expenditure of power was probably too much- we didn't get descriptions of every wizard going around attended by invisible helpers like we would expect the rules to lead to. It's possible that the current rules are overly harsh in their representation of how much effort is required, and that a momentary lapse of attention shouldn't require casting the spell again. Nothing in the setting itself changed, just the rules-lense through which the players experience it. If longer, effortless command of an invisible force is needed in PF2, there is still the Persistent Servant spell and the Phantasmal Custodians ritual.

... Out of curiosity, I looked up some discussion of good long-term buffs in PF1, and the list they came up with was: Hour/level: Mage Armor, Darkvision, Protection from Arrows, Greater Magic Weapon, Overland Flight, False Life, Greater False Life, Greater Darkvision, Water Breathing

10 mins/level: Heroism, Flame Arrow, See Invisibility, Magic circle vs. Evil, Resist Energy, Protection from Energy, Stoneskin, Keen Edge

Mystic Armor actually got its duration improved to "until next daily prep", False Vitality is eight hours, and Water Breathing is one hour, eight hours, or until next daily prep. Darkvision is an hour or heightened until next daily prep, and heightened Fly is one hour. For hour/level durations, that leaves Greater Magic Weapon (there's no long duration version of Runic Weapon) and Protection From Arrows (the spell no longer exists). All in all, pretty minimal changes to the hour-per-level category.

Heroism is ten minutes, See the Unseen is ten minutes with a heighten for eight hours, Circle of Protection is one minute but heightens to an hour, Resist Energy is ten minutes, and Mountain Resilience is twenty minutes. I couldn't find a good equivalent to Flame Arrow, and Keen Edge is effectively rolled into Heroism now, since an accuracy bonus of 1, 2, or 3 expands the crit range by 1, 2, and 3 respectively.

There's plenty of "hours to one hour" and "tens of minutes to ten minutes", but even then, there are a good number of spell heightens that increase the duration. In terms of narrative differences, a powerful mage can't just drop a high-level spell to replace a magic weapon for the day, there's no special magic to absorb damage from arrows specifically, and the flaming rune isn't something you can just cast on a weapon.

I mean, you could make the same gamist world argument about PF1E's spells. I played enough high-level games to know the feeling of having to pace out encounters and exploration based on when buffs would expire. It forces the whole adventuring day into this strict schedule to maximize benefit, or requires the players to be aware of options from various sources to help extend and empower those buffs, neither of which ever made adventuring days feel especially organic or simulationist to me.

Spell durations are approximate values that codify the vagaries and eccentricities of magic into a convenient number. However, that doesn't mean you can set your watch by a spell with a 1-hour duration.

While it doesn't change your point that "casters wanting to hurry to get the most out of their spells feels realistic", it's worth mentioning that spells don't last precise six-second increments in the setting. There's a general tendency for how long the magic of a spell lasts, and for the convenience of the game, a lot of the uncertainty of magic-as-it-exists-in-the-setting is removed.

I'm really happy with all three additions thematically.

We have a teleportation-focused arcane school, a very wizardly thing to be able to do, and an important niche to have covered now that it's not a weird conjuration insert. For reflavors of mechanics, it's an excellent tactician-lite, scooting people around to where they need to be. The spells are tons of different ways to use magical teleportation and movement, which is a lot of fun- it will let you really feel like a specialist applying their specialty in a variety of ways.

We have a luxury arcane school, something I've wanted since we got the remaster details. Loading down an enemy with your treasure is a flex- it's not the most practical spell, but at least a speed and AC penalty are always functional. The advanced school spell being get-out-of-death-free with a recovery perk (on arcane, no less!) is fantastic, though. The spells are an excellent selection of rich person magic- my only major suggestion would be asking the GM for the addition of Planar Palace. Excellent for playing a rich jerk of any sort.

And, last but not least, we've got a crafting arcane school- something for the construct manufacturers and other more technically-focused mages. The versatile focus spell is great both in and out of combat, fitting the theme nicely. Spells are a nice blend of combat and utility, with plenty of options that lend themselves to creative applications.

These are all the sorts of things I hoped we would be getting when they introduced the remaster, and I'm glad to see it happening. I'd be a little happier if they were a tad more general in the presented flavor and common instead, but level one subclass choices are especially easy to talk to the GM about, so I'm not too bothered by that.

The team are now working on their wrap up! It will take them a bit, but there WILL be a blog for it! Please be on the lookout!

Thanks! I'm especially looking forward to this wrap up to see what the developer thoughts are.

I'm someone who enjoyed PF1's magic more, so I'll chime in with a few things that I really appreciate in PF2.

- Illusion spells. You want a talking creature? A body double? Illusory Creature is a second-rank spell that's incredibly useful for a lot of things. Invisible Item gives you way more time than PF1's approach of casting Invisibility on an item while being earlier access- it's eventually even permanent. Illusory Object doesn't require spending all your actions concentrating on it, and is all in one heighten line. Illusory Disguise is no longer self-only, and heightens to cover the whole party; being able to make the main frontline look like a weak zombie is excellent. Illusions got a significant glow-up in PF2, and casting stuff that feels better is a good way to ease into the new system. They do require you to be interested in creative shenanigans, though.

- It's much easier to splash in a little casting, especially with free archetype. (If you're experiencing saminess, free archetype is a good addition anyway.) In PF1, it was like pulling teeth to get something as simple as "Command a couple times a day" on a character. In PF2, you can trade a few feats in and you're good to go. It works best with the non-offensive spells, of course.

- Thaumaturge and Exemplar are interesting martials. They have unique stuff they can do, which is good for mixing up their routine. After the remaster, Swashbuckler is on a pretty good place too. I'm really looking forward to Commander coming out soon- "prepared martial" is a fun concept. (I would also recommend Kineticist, but it's really not for anyone who feels like casters don't do enough damage.)

- Ancestry customization feels good. I went from "reflavoring a tiefling as a kobold because kobolds were so bad" in PF1 to "playing an actual kobold tiefling" in PF2. Versatile heritages do a lot.

It might not solve things for you, but I'm someone who took some adjusting to PF2 as well.

Starfinder 2e does seem to be aiming a little higher power-wise and jumping into more exotic class features earlier, so you might also decide to check that out once it releases or gets a few books under its belt.

It's the last day to submit the Mechanic and Technomancer feedback. Survey link.

Hello, I have a question about mind swap ritual.

Quote:

Heightened (9th) You can cast the ritual without a duration, leaving no magic to counteract. The effects are reversible only by another mind swap ritual or powerful magic like wish. This increases the cost of the ritual to 10,000 gp and is an evil act unless both targets are willing.

Quote:

f a body dies, the mind and spirit controlling it dies instantly. When the spell ends, the minds and souls snap back to their original bodies. At this time, if the original body is dead, the mind and soul attempting to return to that body die as well.

So a character is in an other body for a unlimited duration, must the character return to it original body if its original body is dead ?

Thanks for your future answer.

Only when the duration ends. For an unlimited duration effect, that won't occur naturally... But a dispel would be lethal.

As mentioned below, this is "no duration", which means the magic is all done and finished. Nothing to dispel, and no duration to end.

I also recommend leaning on the rule of funny when possible. In the original, the tanuki turned into a teakettle, but sprouted legs and scampered away whenever someone tried to put them over a fire to heat water.

I certainly agree that heating water without damage should be fine, but it shouldn't be comfortable, unless that's funnier. XP

Don't the tanuki abilities say that they can be used like the real item though?

That leads me to believe that you could use the tea kettle over a fire just fine, since that is it's intended purpose.

Mechanically, I tend to agree.

It's worth noting that the original myth (or at least the version I heard) had the tanuki-teapot very much unable to withstand fire as a teakettle, halfway-reverting and running off whenever it happened.

In practice, I think it's best to go with whatever is funniest.

Why? All the planer dragons are Paizo originals aren't they? I don't see a need for this and sort of just makes things more difficult.

My guess is that it's a "Yes, but" situation. The planes themselves weren't altogether Paizo originals, and the old iterations were more heavily tied in with alignment. Distinct names allows distinguishing "This is for OGL, and this is for ORC".

I certainly expect there's a good reason for it to be such a consistent thing of using different names.

Practically speaking, playtest the Mechanic and give your feedback on robot companions. There's one week left in the playtest. The ship has sailed on anything else- if something made it through the remaster, that's that.

Change Shape is a polymorph, and therefore can't imitate specific individuals unless the ability indicates otherwise.

Ohhh, I somehow missed that this was sustained. With just the one use, it seemed like the usual Wizard "a little worse than a real focus spell", but this is great.

- Use this in a party with a Commander, and you can really start to arrange the battlefield to your liking.

- Effortless Concentration brings back the relevance of this at high levels, allowing a free scoot every round.

Where does it list that Change Shape gives base speeds? As far as I can tell nothing about it would imply that you actually gain the base speeds, only that you assume the form of an ancestry.

Hmm. I was looking at the Monster Core rules for Change Shape, which says that it does give movement speeds. Similarly, you get the unarmed attacks of the base ancestry, but not any heritage-specific ones, which is why there's an Astrazoan feat to get heritage- and feat-specific unarmed attacks.

If that's not the case for Astrazoan's Change Shape, then yeah, you need another source of a fly speed.

BookBird wrote:

According to an AMA with someone who received the Shining Kingdoms pdf, the Occult Dragon Matriculum (as in the 1e occult dragon, not the 2e category), has been retconned into being an Omen Dragon. Uncertain if this is a unique decision or if it applies to the species as a whole, and Omen Dragons are now part of the Esoteric Dragon family, though they fit the bill Id say. Now, I'm less certain about the decision to replace Occult Dragons with them; it was probably made to tie into the "prophecy" theme of Drums, but personally I'd say that Fortune Dragons are closer to what Occult Dragons were. Though they probably want Esoteric Dragons to use the Occult tradition? I'm not sure.

Honestly, now that I think about it, the 1e occult dragon does seem like it'd be the Paizo-original dragon that's most at risk of just being wholly removed as a result of the remaster, just for the sake of clarity regarding names. If it does stick around, I'd imagine it'll get renamed(perhaps a collector dragon or implement dragon? I suggest implement dragon because I think the idea of letting a dragon use Thaumaturge-esque abilities in combat would be cool, even if it's a bit at odds with the original occult dragon in some ways).

Easy fix, just call it the esoteric or esoterica dragon, since the category name is no longer in use and it fits what occult dragons were about.

But Paizo hasn't seemed to be leaning too heavily on old dragons for arcane or occult.

Well, Change Shape already gives base speeds, so I'm not sure why you're using that example? Even if it doesn't because I missed something, then you would still be able to take the feat to modify some other source of a fly speed.

I would absolutely consider that a one-off decision. Matriculum didn't have much real detail before or any ties to "occult dragon". If you consider what type of dragon would only take one meeting to become a Kalistocrat, an omen dragon is the obvious choice. A fortune dragon, with the whole "draining magic items" thing, would actually be a terrible fit, and a menace/competition.

But, if you had an occult dragon before that leaned into having a collection of trinkets and scraps of scrolls, then yeah, you'd probably use a fortune dragon replacement.

I don't think Armor Plates implies that. It's a lot more accessible at low levels with no strength requirement, it doesn't care about Dex mod, and it doesn't weigh a bunch of bulk.

Thanks for the reminder! It's greatly appreciated! I'll be playing a second playtest character next weekend myself.

Eox, easy call. Deadly gameshows, Pharasmin terrorists, the economics and politics of undeath, the lesson of never firing your doomsday weapon from in the atmosphere, and my headcanons about how scary the planet's reputation in the Veskarium must be after being such a key part of the war.

QuidEst wrote:

Agonarchy wrote:

SpontaneousLightning wrote:

I would unironically love a feathered dragon though. It would be so fluffy. Plus it could be a nod to the theory that some dragon myths originated with dinosaur bones, and that birds are related to dinosaurs.

I'd love to see a whole feathered reptile *event* centered around the coatls that could introduce a handful of feathered snakes, dragons, drakes, and dinosaurs, and maybe finally gave us playable serpentfolk (with or without feathers). Throw in some kenku, shisk, strix, and dragonblooded options, maybe a feathered serpent medusa for kicks.

The hurdles on this are pretty much insurmountable, and it's never going to happen as a result.

... Now, if you're willing to compromise and accept tengu instead of kenku, it gets a lot more feasible.

Aren't Coualts Incan/Mayan dragons?

It means "serpent". Quetzalcoatl means "feathered serpent", and is an Aztec deity.

In Pathfinder, coatls are winged celestial serpents. The spelling was changed in the remaster from D&D's preferred spelling couatl.

I don't really think any of those interpretations would be "dragons".

SpontaneousLightning wrote:

I would unironically love a feathered dragon though. It would be so fluffy. Plus it could be a nod to the theory that some dragon myths originated with dinosaur bones, and that birds are related to dinosaurs.

I'd love to see a whole feathered reptile *event* centered around the coatls that could introduce a handful of feathered snakes, dragons, drakes, and dinosaurs, and maybe finally gave us playable serpentfolk (with or without feathers). Throw in some kenku, shisk, strix, and dragonblooded options, maybe a feathered serpent medusa for kicks.

The hurdles on this are pretty much insurmountable, and it's never going to happen as a result.

... Now, if you're willing to compromise and accept tengu instead of kenku, it gets a lot more feasible.

Curious if the church of Abadar ever partners with those who ponder the philosophy of Kalistrade. There are obvious points of overlap, so much so I could see Abadarian worship either thriving or being outright banned in communities within Druma. But why wouldn’t a savvy Kalistocrat hedge her bets for the afterlife by throwing in a few prayers to big A after a day of raking in the ducats?

Thanks to anyone who’s put thought into this, or is willing to.

There's certainly some worship of Abadar, and it sounds like some degree of mutual respect. I expect that's more at the lower levels.

- For one, Kalistocrats as a group take the lack of divine backing as a point of pride, especially in the post-Aroden era. With the very public death of Gorum, I would expect there to be a resurgence of anti-deity sentiments and a desire for more distance.

- At the highest levels, the Prophecies and Abadar have some incompatibilities that become apparent, especially when it comes to the afterlife. Kalistocrats have a ritual to sidestep Pharasma's judgement and enter an artificial afterlife. It's likely a violation of Abadar's anathema against "undermining a law-abiding court".

- Worship of Abadar isn't much of a hedge to any afterlife bets, even for somebody who isn't inducted into the secrets at the heart of the Prophecies. A follower of the Prophecies would be likely to be sent to Utopia, which is where Abadar resides anyway. Abadar isn't likely to do any big favors for a "hedge your bets" follower, and the plane itself is very orderly and unlikely to be unfairly harsh to anyone. For a few edge cases, it might theoretically be the tipping factor keeping them out of Hell.

Of all the deities, though, I'm sure Abadar is the one getting the most worshippers in Druma and among Kalistocrats.

We'll be getting a book with a section on Druma soon, though.

Huh, thanks! Then maybe the problem is on my end. I was certainly surprised to see it acting differently.

QuidEst wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Basically, Item bonuses are part of a character budget, Status, aren't.

So, yes, you are giving misinformation when you say "technically, they give higher bonuses!" When in reality, Mutagens give only +1 above what you have where it matters regardless of their level.

(Un-highlighted for de-emphasis.)

Item bonuses to attack and saves are part of your budget. Item bonuses to two skills are part of your budget. That leaves a lot of uncovered skills.

You only increase around 3 skills.

Giving a barbarian +2 to his Untrained Deception won't make him able to bluff any more than giving him +1 from Heroism.

But giving a barbarian +2 to his trained Deception does make him as good at bluffing as being expert. You have more than three trained skills.

Basically, Item bonuses are part of a character budget, Status, aren't.

So, yes, you are giving misinformation when you say "technically, they give higher bonuses!" When in reality, Mutagens give only +1 above what you have where it matters regardless of their level.

(Un-highlighted for de-emphasis.)

Status bonuses are not part of your budget... but they're hard not to trip over.

Suppose you're a Swashbuckler or a Rogue or something- some non-caster, non-alchemist. You have some consumable budget to address your lack of support, buying mutagens or Heroism. We will assume your permanent gear follows the ABP progression. (Mutagens are brokenly good under the actual ABP rules as they're written, so we won't actually use ABP- that's not a fair comparison.) To not completely ignore the downsides of Heroism, one of those items will be the Pendant of the Occult. Once an hour, we can get a +1 status bonus to an attack or skill roll.

Levels 1-4, mutagens (3-12gp) for everything. Heroism isn't available.

Level 5-10: Heroism (30gp) for attack rolls, easy call. We had a +1 item bonus to attack back at level 2, so mutagens can't outperform Heroism, and even at nearly three times the cost, not having a drawback is pretty important. For skills, though, we only have one to two skills with item bonuses. For everything else, mutagens give twice the bonus for one-third the price. That's a pretty easy call for mutagens on skill rolls, even with the drawbacks and before considering the extra perks like preventing crit-fails. Heroism only gets used for skills if we need to make a second one in an hour.

Levels 11-16: Heroism is now 300 gp a pop, and so are the mutagens. It's no longer cheaper to use mutagens. The mutagens last an hour instead, which is good for long stretches of repeated skill use, but less good for the practical considerations of a drawback lingering long enough to be a problem. We'll have two or three skills where a mutagen isn't doing much at all, and one or two more where a mutagen is only as good (without Guidance) as Heroism.

Levels 17+: It's now 3,000 gp a pop. Cognitive Mutagen is notable for giving a massive +23-26 if you need to use an untrained skill. There are five skills with reduced mutagen effectiveness. Guidance no longer puts much of a dent in Heroism's relative effectiveness. At this point, it's hard to compete with a 9th slot spell, and getting ten minutes of +3 status to attack and skills is hard to replicate, even looking at other spells.

To me, if you look at skills, the first half favors mutagens, and the second half favors Heroism.

---

But, let's also take a look at what it takes to stop blowing absurd funds on consumables.

Getting those mutagens? That's one second-level feat, and you're good for four uses per day across all levels. You also cap mutagen duration at ten minutes, meaning you don't have to worry about the drawbacks of the hour duration. A second feat gets you another four uses, with full duration.

Getting Heroism at rank 3? That's two feats (2nd and 4th), and you're delayed until level 8, getting only one use. Rank 6? That's another feat (12th) and you're delayed until 16th- one level before that single Alchemist feat is getting +4 bonus mutagens. And Rank 9 is impossible; you need to actually be a caster.

From a "get it yourself for free" angle, mutagens absolutely crush Heroism on skills. Even for the skills you have items for, it's level 16 before you can get a free Heroism to be better than the free mutagen.

Mangaholic13 wrote:

Dear Maya Coleman,

Would it be possible for you guys to put out a version of the pdf that does not include the maps? The two-page spread makes it hard to read the rest.

Also,
any chance the table of contents will be added to the pdf in a future update?

Also also,
I like how Vlaka come with sign language automatically. A nice little detailed touch.

Hey Magnaholic! Unsure about PDFs without maps since the PDFs are just digital versions of the books, and the books have maps, but as far as the table of contents, I can confirm it's on page 3 of 180 of the PDF already!

Pathfinder books, and SF1 books, have a PDF table of contents that allows navigating the PDF easily. This book doesn't have one, so you can't easily navigate to the sections you want to.

It would also be a huge improvement to the usability of the PDF if the horizontal maps were not included in the main PDF- they're already included as a separate download. Because they show up horizontally in the PDF, though, the PDF viewing is sized to a massive width, rather than being sized to the width of a normal page.

Between the two, it means zooming in to the right size, scrolling to the right part, and recentering because of the scrolling. In a Pathfinder book, that would just be clicking to the right part of the book from the PDF viewer's navigation sidebar. (Sorry for the over-explanation; just making sure the end-user experience gets across!)

I found it frustrating when comparing it to the AbadarCorp Representative, which I'd been excited for.

Yeah, that very first Pirate feat is strong, and the whole archetype stays strong.

the Corpo rep gets... to be a Dandy-lite. We get to recall knowledge for our corp, and IF we take later feats we can replace a charisma check with it and aid with it... oh, I'm sorry those two feats can only be used once a day.

The space Pirate can whip their holo roger out in every encounter.

I like the Pirate's power, they've stated that the meta will be different. And I'm good with that. But I wish the other archetypes had similar power levels.

There's always some initial wonkiness with initial releases, and this is coming out before the core rules. I'm hopeful that we'll get other things moving up to settle around Space Pirate with a little time.

Even AbadarCorp Rep has some bangers that are at Space Pirate's level- success-to-crit on every Intimidation-based Demoralize and Coerce is some serious power both in and out of combat, and it stacks with things like Quick Coercion or Group Coercion. I wish that it had a similar "everything feels good" cohesion to Pirate, but it's still putting in some good work.

As for the two feats you mentioned, it's once per day per person. Still rough for the "Aid" option, although not taking a reaction is nice, but it's really rare to have two separate influence conversations with the same person in one day. Sales Pitch moving two attitude steps up instead of one is a very nice perk.

QuidEst wrote:

Just doing "Tiamat is associated with dragons in particular" was already too close to D&D for comfort- that was dropped part way through PF1, so it definitely doesn't pass the more rigorous standards of post-OGL.

Tiamat was associated with dragons-as much as anything Mesopotamian can be called a dragon-in her original myths. Some of her offspring were dragons.

Sure- and if D&D made a Hermes that only focused on his associations with alchemy, a fantasy tabletop RPG that made a Hermes only focused on his associations with alchemy would also be toeing the line. Paizo has not seemed interested in toeing the line. It's not necessarily a matter of being sued over Tiamat in particular; it could end up as a bullet-point in a list of dragon similarities.

It's also more than a decade since Paizo last mentioned Tiamat in publishing, with a "Nobody worships her or even mentions her name". The book where Paizo is putting together a definitive presentation of dragons as they exist under the ORC license is the last place to expect that to change.

Just doing "Tiamat is associated with dragons in particular" was already too close to D&D for comfort- that was dropped part way through PF1, so it definitely doesn't pass the more rigorous standards of post-OGL.

Quote:

Statistics for over 20 types of dragons, including expansions on the dragons found in Monster Core and Monster Core 2!

Here's hoping that those expansions are IN ADDITION of the "20 types of dragons".

... I have some bad news about what "including" means. But also, some good news about "over", I guess?

Actually, Incapacitation Sucks: Have an enemy's save improved from a failure to a success by the Incapacitation trait.
Actually, Incapacitation Rules: Have your save improved from a failure to a success by the Incapacitation trait.
False Advertising: Play a character appearing as a class they are not.
Hit the Bricks: Drink a Potion of Emergency Escape.
Coming Attractions: Discuss upcoming Paizo products with the group.
Wait, What Are We Playing Again?: Confuse a rule with another system.

---

And a few vanity ones:
The Yelis Special: Make an illusion of an object you have turned invisible.
The Bristlebrush Special: Present an Illusory Creature instead of yourself.
The Thistil Special: Pretend to be somebody's conscience.
The Avaula Special: Meaningfully contribute to the safety of the world by waiting patiently in a line.
The The Wizard Special: Solve a problem using rats.
The Saint Special: Solve a problem using ghost rats.
The Com Special: Distract an enemy with a fake copy of something in their possession.

I love the pivot to using Iconics in novels! It goves more opportunities to get to know them so much better! :3

I'm on Team Author OCs myself, but we have a pretty sizable back-catalogue of those for folks like me to enjoy. (I say that, but I'm still going to snap up the first Mios book to come out...)

QuidEst wrote:

Yeah, this was absolutely my feeling. Anytime I go to build a drone, it feels like I'm pouring all my feats into customizations if I want to make something other than a second MAP track.

Mechanically, a companion IS a second MAP attack, that's kind of the balance niche of getting the second body

Sure! But if you're going to offer something like Impersonator, with its permanent -1 to hit and -2 (or more) hp/level compared to other robots... it should be a little more feasible to make it okay at impersonating.

1. Mutagens don't cost much money. A level 3 mutagen is 12 gp. Compared to a permanent item of that level, you're getting a bundle of four or five.

2. Being polymorph is also an advantage. It means that any mutagen can also be used to attempt to counteract a hostile polymorph effect, and forces hostile polymorphs to counteract it to take effect. "But Quid, hostile polymorphs are pretty rare!" And so are beneficial ones? Missing out on battle forms is not some big loss, and not being able to stack Enlarge and Choker Arm Mutagen is pretty fair.

3. Being balanced by needing to be applied pre-combat isn't a huge factor when they last for ten minutes or an hour.

4. I think "barely" is incorrect here. They always give +1 more of an item bonus than you can get with a permanent item of that level, and they usually give that bonus to a lot more than a permanent item would.

Just as an example for a recent concept I had- a Necromancer focused on social skills, running a scam where a fake "hero" defeats the "powerful necromancer". Deception and Intimidation are both critical for the concept, while Performance is nice to have. At level 3, that would be a Ventriloquist's Ring and a One Hundred Victories tattoo, totaling 120 gp. For the same price, that's ten uses of the Silvertongue Mutagen, which also covers Performance and Diplomacy to talk their way out of a problem, while also preventing critical failures, all while giving a bigger bonus to Deception and Intimidation than the permanent items. The only thing the permanent items have going for them is a once-per-day first-rank Ventriloquism, which is more likely to give the scam away since it always offers a save.

If it were just that, it would be way too good.

5. Yeah, there's a downside. Potions, Elixirs, and Spells give way smaller benefits for the level, so they don't come with downsides. If I want to give myself a +2 to multiple charisma skills, I'm looking at a 6th rank Heroism spell, and I don't think the other two can do it at all. That's 11th level instead of 3rd.

6. I disagree about forgetting about the penalty. Why would the type make a difference there? It just means it's a penalty that stacks. This feels like padding the point count.

7. They're always a thematic group. "Bonus to charisma stuff, no crit failures, penalty to intelligence stuff, lose one trained skill".

Once my characters are into the mid levels, they're almost always carrying a 3rd level mutagen on their person for emergencies because of the huge value. Skill mutagens especially, because there are so many use cases where their penalties don't have any impact at all. Cognitive Mutagen lets you spend a ten minute break recalling information with a bonus and zero chance of false info. Serene Mutagen is all upside if you're not expecting fights, or on characters who buff and heal. Silvertongue mutagen makes social situations a breeze.

I dunno, it feels like you might only be looking at the combat mutagens?

Alice is controlled by Bob. Bob decides how Alice acts and controls all her actions without spending any of his own.

Bob is controlled by Charlie. Charlie decides how Bob acts and controls all his actions without spending any of his own.

Does Charlie control Alice's actions through his control over Bob? Or does Bob still control Alice's actions since it doesn't require any of the actions Charlie could force Bob to use?

With Dominate usually giving a new save every round, being uncommon, and having the incapacitation trait, this falls under "so unlikely to actually happen that it should just be handled on a case by case basis".

Yeah, this was absolutely my feeling. Anytime I go to build a drone, it feels like I'm pouring all my feats into customizations if I want to make something other than a second MAP track.

I just played this scenario, I guess the voting is over as the QR code leads to a closed poll. Can anyone tell me what the choices were and what the outcome was.

I believe that the winner was "City McCityface".