Jan Caltrop's page

I am SO CURIOUS about the "work with your GM to find weapon stuff that will work without being a spoiler" stuff; I want to know HOW that kind of thing would be relevant. ...That sounds like a rhetorical question meaning "I don't believe it could be relevant", but I mean it completely literally; I trust that it IS relevant, I just can't trace WHAT would lead to that.

Taking inspiration from various fantasy stories I've read: if there's something that has multiple IRL versions of it in fiction, use one of the things from there. Vampires are prolly the easiest for this, since not only is there a lot of different types of vampires in fiction, there's also a lot of different vampire stories where someone goes "yeah XYZ only works in STORIES, in REALITY it's ABC".

Human brains aren't super great at remembering WHERE they came across a concept before, but they're good at going "this seems familiar".

(...)

The "War of the Immortals" might be a good trigger event for the Gap, though I'm not sure how to explain that the Gap doesn't start at the same time at all places. Also, the War might not be a good trigger event. We just don't know.

...actually, idea: it wasn't the trigger for the START of it, but it's the BOUNDARY of it.

New question: how do you think the upcoming academies book will change the arguments in this thread? Things that'll be settled (aside from "just wait until the book comes out to see what it has"), completely new issues that'll be raised, things where people keep arguing about that aspect but it's now clear they agree on the facts and just have differing value judgements, etc.

I have absolutely zero dogs in this race; this is mostly just so people will be able to say "called it" afterwards.

So....

Anyone ever play the first Balder's Gate? Remember the Kobolds in that game?

Dog like creatures?

Huh? What? Wait a moment!!!

Oh I actually know the explanation for this! (Or at least to SOMETHING, I don't know if BG1 is actually relevant to what I'm thinking about.) Apparently it all stems from an early edition of D&D, where kobolds are illustrated as kind of like dogs and kind of like reptiles. When stuff got over to Japan, it developed in the "kind of like dogs" direction, whereas D&D went with the "kind of like reptiles" direction.

132. At first it appears to be audio recordings of a person screaming in pain and terror; then you hear brief coughing, clearing the throat, commentary on how that one sounded, then another bit of screaming but this time with a slightly altered pitch.
Maybe this is a copy of the original recording session for the Starfinder equivalent of the wilhelm scream; maybe it's a clue that the person who produced this recording has aspirations of being a voice actor.

133. A collection of files, labelled by date, that depict artwork, seemingly all by the same person. The earliest-dated pieces are consistent with something a young child would make, and they show an improvement in skill and sophistication as time goes on. There's a gap of a few years, where there's nothing for that time, then when it starts up again, the pieces are radically different in subject matter.

134. Video journal from a few years ago, of a normal person with a coincidental strong resemblance to a minor celebrity. Or rather, that was a minor celebrity back then, and is now a major public figure; and you have information which you can use to find someone who looks a LOT like that important and/or controversial person.

134. Amateur-quality draft of a story with the EXACT same plot points and twists as a recent hit space-movie. The file's date means that it can't have been written AFTER the movie was released.
Maybe this was the original, and the recent thing is plagiarised; maybe this is the original, and the recent thing is the creator's final version after years of improving their craft; maybe this was someone writing down their psychic visions of a popular movie in the then-future.

In the section about "fleshing out what your adventure and nemesis had been like", is it just me or did the first option listed for most of them feel a LOT like Abomination Vaults? That's the only AP which I've actually read, so I don't know if the others are references to other APs.

Yeah I was going to comment too on "wait wasn't his hair darker than that", and it does make sense that time has passed, but how many years are we talking?

...and then I just realized that doesn't necessarily matter, since my youngest aunt started to grey in her thirties; but still, it was starting to GREY, not go full white.
I do hope there's some sort of explanation for this; I'm fine with anything from "he's actually older now than his time-from-birth would indicate, because of dimension shenanigans" to "he started to go grey early, and decided it'd look cooler to just bleach the rest of his hair".

well, Our Lord In Iron will at least go down swinging!

my main question is ** spoiler omitted **

...wait, are we POSITIVE that this death is being correctly attributed? There's plenty of deities involved with "deception", after all.... Heck, it's also possible that the killer is who we think it is, but the killer didn't realize the VICTIM was who he actually is.

Okay yeah that's definitely a better pantheon name.

Ooh yesss, seeing what the rituals might actually LOOK like.

I always love reading the explanations people give for their decisions; and it's even better here, where I'd been involved with the discussions on "which god will die", so I know which questions were raised.

There's two different questions there: which places in-'verse are likely to blow up, and which places Paizo thinks there'd be the most fun from them blowing up. And the intersection between those two questions is where it's MOST LIKELY to happen (but not guaranteed).

I had not thought about that, that he'd likely be more popular among groups of first settlers. Makes a lot of sense though, so thanks for mentioning it.

And through a process of free-associating which I wasn't actually able to keep track of the steps in it, I've come to the conclusion that he's one of the more popular of the "I'm going to start worshipping some obscure niche deity" gods in the Pact Worlds. Like, for people who specifically seek out something in order to be a bit counter-cultural, but they're not looking to completely go against society. He's old-fashioned and unfamiliar (exotic!), but he's neither harmful nor really weird.

Oh, yeah we NEED to see the response from Rahadoum about this.

...now I'm wondering, how would that philosophy react to people who are like "yeah I recognize that my god is dead, but I'm still acting in accordance with his teachings"? Because on the one hand, that's subordinating your will to divine whims without even potential bribery of magic; but on the OTHER hand, that's choosing something of your own free mortal will, and the god's not around to DIRECT you to do anything any more.

I predict it'll be resolved as a political issue, more than a philosophical one; since it could go either way, the deciding factor would be "are these people particularly annoying, or are these people valuable allies". (And if they end up NOT widespread interacting with them, then it'd be a case-by-case basis.)

I just had a thought, that there's going to be a popular story going around Rahadoum; one person's saying something like "I don't think the gods are worthy of worship", another person says "may [deity most associated with political enemies at the time of the telling] smite you for that", and then the second person gets smacked by a piece of Gorum's armour. It just seems like the kind of urban legend that gets passed around; something that validates the views of the audience, and makes their opponents look foolish.

I don't instagram; can anyone describe what's at the link?

It's possible that "Apocalypse Rider" is not associated with Szuriel or whichever horsepeople at all, and more tied to "what the legend people would tell about you is." Like someone who is a "walking apocalypse" who carries death and destruction wherever they go could be poetically described as an "apocalypse rider".

Similarly an eternal legend could be someone who is able to endure literally anything you throw at them, since you cannot end their legend as they are eternal.

You just shouldn't need to be tied to or draw power from the outer planes in order to be Mythic. Like Baba Yaga is one of the most noteworthy mythic individuals in Pathfinder and she has no ties to any outer plane (by choice.)

Like Vash the Stampede, the Humanoid Typhoon? (Trigun)

W E Ray wrote:

LOL -- and Szuriel is Gavrilo Princip waving his Nationalism Flag in the air: 'My country/ethnicity/religion is greater than yours!'

(It even *feels* Daemonic.)

Szuriel feels like she was responsible for the Balkans conflict and World War 1.

How will Szruiel be involved?

I generally shy away from "supernatural evil was the cause for real-world disaster"; so I choose to believe the incredibly entertaining instead possibility of "Szuriel had nothing to do with the start of WWI, and alternated the whole time between mentally kicking herself for not thinking of it first, and taking notes for stuff she can do in the future".

So I decided to get an outside perspective, and asked a friend who's unfamiliar with Pathfinder, and I don't know if she's ever even played a TTRPG before. I'm including here our conversation, so you can see what information she was working from.

me: So, basic background: for a bunch of checks (including the relevant one), there's four degrees of possible success: critical failure, "normal" failure, "normal" success, and critical success.
There's a thing you can do called Recall Knowledge, where you try to see what you know about something; and the GM rolls the dice for you in secret, so you don't know what the result was.
Critical failure for Recall Knowledge is "you get a piece of false information", normal failure is "you don't get any information", normal success is "you get a piece of true information", and critical success is "you get two pieces of true information".
That's what there is by default.
Then there's an option you can choose to take for your character, called Dubious Knowledge. Lemme type it out....
"You're a treasure trove of information, but not all of it comes from reputable sources. When you fail (but don't critically fail) a Recall Knowledge check using any skill, you learn the correct answer and an erroneous answer, but you don't have any way to differentiate which is which. This can occur as not knowing something is significant, but not whether it's good or bad."
(We're pretty sure that the last sentence has a typo in it; there's a bunch of those throughout the book, because it needed to be rushed due to reasons which would take too long to explain here.)
So, that being said, what do you think it means? What kind of information would somebody get, if this would apply?
Don't worry about getting a rules interpretation precise; I'm asking for how this would be interpreted by someone with zero background knowledge.

her: So dubious knowledge would come across to the player like a critical success? Since u get from their perspective 2 pieces of information?

me: The player knows they have Dubious Knowledge, and they also know the normal rules for Recall Knowledge.

her: Maybe I need an example of the type of information u would get for the recall types…

me: There's a bunch of example questions (for normal Recall Knowledge), I'll copy out the ones from the first section which is about creatures:
"Can it be reasoned with?" "What environments does it live in?" "What's its most notable offensive ability?" "Is it highly vulnerable or resistant to anything?" "Are any of its defenses weak?"

her: So I might be totally missing the mark but a dubious knowledge to something like “can it be reasoned with” could be something like “yes. But watch out”
And like no idea if yes is true or false or the watch out but there’s no context of what to watch out for???
Or hm my roommate just made a suggestion… u know the rhyme that goes something like red on black friend friend of jack, red on yellow kill a fellow - for kingsnakes (not venomous) and coral snakes (extremely venomous).. would this be like remembering that the colors are important but not remembering which one applies to u live or die??

me: lol I have no real idea how it's MEANT to be; I really hope this is one that'll get clarified in the next errata pass.

What I most WANT is leshy or kholo, because I like them and I think they look really cool and we need to see more of them. Hobgoblin or orc are more likely, and would be acceptable, because those are also cool. I do NOT want it to be elf or human (or ai-whatsit), because we've seen a lot of them; UNLESS there's some really INTERESTING versatile heritage added.

...now that I think about it, I'm just kind of tired of seeing characters with a skin colour that is possible for humans. And unless there's other major changes to the body (ie being a centaur, or... whatever's up with the faces of goblins), I don't want them to have a skin TEXTURE that's possible for humans.

...oh man, and here I'd thought the MEANING of that feat was actually really obvious, just its LAST SENTENCE was worded so horribly I can't tell what they meant to convey by it.

The easiest way to think of it, is any situation where you know something is ONE of two things, but not WHICH. Doesn't even have to be DUBIOUS knowledge; yesterday I took an online quiz of locating the provinces of Canada (I'm Canadian), and I have never been able to remember which is Nova Scotia and which is New Brunswick. I got that question wrong yesterday (because I was just guessing), and I'd gotten it wrong half the time when I was a teenager and my family was doing a road trip through the area, and I'd gotten it wrong half the time in grade 2 when we had a quiz on that stuff. But if you say "maritime province that's adjacent to Quebec", I'm not going to be randomly guessing from all provinces in Canada; I know it's ONE of those two, just not WHICH.

I honestly don't get how anything thinks "the GM gives you two pieces of information, one of which is OBVIOUSLY false" is how it's supposed to go. That's how it can go WRONG, sure, but that's like saying "whenever I use the toaster the bread always comes out super-burnt, thus toast is the worst possible form of bread and I don't know why it even exists" instead of realizing your toaster is on the wrong setting.

Nethys was messing with time magic and snapped something load-bearing, which is also why prophecy doesn't work any more (because the world's a few degrees off the normal chain from cause to effect). Aroden doesn't realize anything has happened, because no time has passed for him whatsoever; and he seems "dead" to his followers because he currently doesn't exist in relation to their timeframe. Nethys was very sorry, and promised to never do it again.

A few millennia later, Nethys was messing with information magic, and that's how we got the Gap.

This is an idea I had back when his Godsrain prophecy came out, and I only now realized I could actually, y'know, post about it here.

So obviously "hunting" and "farming" aren't as relevant to most people in Starfinder, as opposed to Pathfinder era. "Community" is always a thing, but he's a pretty old-fashioned guy, I don't think he's going to pivot away from those other aspects of himself.

But you know what kinds of people, in our world, have an interest in outmoded forms of food production? Not (just) as historians, but as skills they want to acquire for themselves, not out of any perceived need, just because they're neat?

I think Erastil is the god of historical re-enactors.

It'd also fit with his focus on "community"; it's a niche interest, and that builds stronger bonds between the people who share it.

Okay. So. I'm pretty sure they didn't pick "nine" at random, there's got to be some MEANING behind that number, and not seven or eight or ten; however, "nine" might be "the number of really great ideas we got from our brainstorming session", or "the number that works out the best with our projected page count", or some other factor we don't have access to, thus no point in trying to guess it based on THAT.

Now, what do we have "nine" of, from the information we DO have access to..... "Nine alignments", obviously, except "alignment" is no longer a thing with ORC. Planes, going off the inside cover of RoE, number up to 19, and there ARE ways to chunk them together such that it becomes "nine", but nothing which immediately jumps out to me in a way that makes sense.

It could be different things which ADD UP to "nine". There's four types of magic, but I can't think of any five other things which would have an equal kind of spread.

I mean there's PROBABLY not any kind of underlying "theme" for the different stuff, unless you count "all together, these give coverage for a lot of different character concepts", but yeah.

So, I had a thought, and I don't know whether it should go here or in the Starfinder forum, but: it said an Gorum's death is apparent on every world he's worshipped on, which I can see why they made sure to include that, but what might that mean for non-Golarion worlds? Do we have enough information about the religious practices of, uh, I'm blanking on the names of the other planets in that solar system, so just imagine I actually named one here, to tell if some of them worshipped Gorum, possibly under a different name, and if so, what effects his death might have THERE?

Was it ever mentioned how long the vesk have been worshipping Damoritosh? Because I can easily imagine "one war god dies, another war god -- one of conquest this time -- steps in, and begins to forge them into an empire". (If that contradicts with Starfinder canon, then I choose to believe an that same kind of thing still happens, just on a different planet, which might or might not have lasted to Starfinder times.)

And yes, I know "Starfinder isn't guaranteed to be in the same continuity as Pathfinder", but let's pretend it is, for the sake of having fun with speculation.

Now, another option that'd be totally on-brand is Gorum feeling his essence being 'sucked out' by whatever thing is going on and going "You know what? I choose a different strategy. You Lose."

And then self-shanking hard enough to break the ritual and send parts of himself everywhere.

Ooh now THAT would be a good one too; it allows for him to have gotten dishonourably fatally attacked without being able to counterattack (which is what I believe they're going for), but WITH him still being able to strike back against his attacker. Like sure their IMMEDIATE goal (killing Gorum) succeeded, but their OVERALL goal (using his essence for their own purpose) failed.

So, is this an appropriate place to speculate about what'll be in the Godsrain Prophecies ebook?

I wonder though, does the crew of the Zoetrope have any fighting ability? Does the Zoetrope have any defenses? I ask as I'd imagine their sure to run into hostile creatures in their explorations I'd imagine.

From what I've gathered, "defences against an upset animal who wants you to LEAVE, or who thinks you're potential food" and "defences against intelligent hostiles who want you specifically to no longer be alive" work on two very different paradigms. So, what the ship has as protection against "hostile creatures", might not be things that would show up on a combat statblock.

Hm, is that Amiri on the cover? And she worships Gorum....

I can see him being stabbed by surprise, but I hope that, while dying, he's able to go out fighting.

I think it'd be interesting if his death was SUPPOSED to be a stealthy assassination, but he fights back enough that he's basically blowing the war horn. (Or whatever the phrase is.) Like, the PLAN was to kill him and throw his body somewhere it'll cause maximum turmoil; but he survives long enough, draws enough attention, that everyone knows WHO'S to blame.

So, best guess for Arazni; she gets enough Gorum-aid to cast raise dead on herself and decides that his seat rightfully belongs to her. Nobody really contests this, and the Gorumites figure hey, they have plenty of reasons to want to feel dignified and avenge themselves on Gorum's murderer, so they start changing out their (un)holy symbols.

Two weeks later, a frantic Red Queen shows up on Iomedae's doorstep, clearly not having slept that entire period, asking how the Abaddon she deals with having a major religion all praying to her at once.

I love that concept, although I don't think it'll play out like that, if only because "ideas that can be properly conveyed in a three-sentence forum post" and "ideas that can be properly conveyed in an AP" don't have much overlap (there's SOME, but the odds are against it).

Still, that gives me a thought... what if Arazni is at like ground zero of Gorum's death? If DROPS of his blood can give mortals powers, imagine what more it could do if you're right beside him as the life leaves his body, possibly bathed in it. And that'd also explain how she gains enough recognition to become one of the top 20 most-known deities in the Inner Seas region; if she's there for such a major event, possibly suspected of his murder or acknowledged as taking vengeance on his killer or some other thing I'm not thinking of right now.

Oh, was there any mention of what the "changes to the Prismatic Ray" would be? Or what's up with Arazni?

Lemme try.... Full disclosure, I only know the Weird Al version, so if the scansion assumes some unusual rhymes, that's why.

Bye, bye, Mr Our Lord In I-
Ron, found Gorum (on the forum) is the god who will die

His armour's broken and there's blood from the sky

Lemme try.... Full disclosure, I only know the Weird Al version, so if the scansion assumes some unusual rhymes, that's why.

Bye, bye, Mr Our Lord In I-
Ron, found Gorum (on the forum) is the god who will die

By "innate weaknesses" for vampires, are we talking "vampires will be harder to kill" or "vampires aren't as controlled by their desire for blood"?

Also, thank you VERY much for this, I hope your dreams tonight give you the solution to an issue you've been struggling with.

EDIT: OH THANK GOODNESS, that's the one I was most hoping for.

I'm at peace with whatever is likely to happen. No matter who's revealed to die, it won't ruin my day. I'll be sad if it's some of them, I'll feel bad for other people if it's one I know they love; but it won't cause me agony.

Is anyone able to commit to giving regular updates in this thread, when something happens? Because I'll likely be refreshing it every few minutes, since there's zero chance I'll be able to watch the stream without massive delays, that hasn't been on the table for years, and I'm pretty sure that even opening Twitch will make my browser slow down to the point it's nigh-unusable, and if I try to actually WATCH something these days, I wouldn't be surprised if my computer crashes; it's very old.

And if they don't announce Abadar's death, then you're doing to kill him anyways eh?

Oh a CREATURE! I love that note about the creature not yet having learned a language, because it just makes SENSE.

Jan Caltrop wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Another point completely : we know one of the Core 20 will die. And we know Arazni will be promoted there.

But do we know for sure that no current Core 20 deity will be demoted and replaced ?

PLEASE; I want Rovagug OFF that list, he's not thematically a "deity". Replace him with literally any demon lord; not only would it be BETTER, but there's a lot more stories you can tell about "destructive jerks who have a specific goal (that isn't to destroy the planet)" than "destructive jerks who just want to mindlessly ruin everything".

Not really doing any favors when there are like several unimaginable cosmic horrors that want to unmake reality other than Rovagug hanging around in the setting too... and unlike him they can actually have stories written about them

Ultimately he's so irrelevant and non-invasive that I guess it was hard to kill him in a plausible way, but it is sort of a shame that one of the "Core 20" is something that literally only exists to take up space (and doesn't even get to be interesting while doing it).

He's a good element of the setting! He just shouldn't be on THAT list.

I'd recommend getting Rage Of Elements, if only for the lore stuff; I read all the MECHANICS stuff on AoN, and it was cool, but there were just these tantalizing GLIMPSES of what had happened in the world. (I only started going on the forums like a month or two ago.) When I got it, not only was there cool art and lore I hadn't seen on AoN, but there were STORIES about the planes, in-'verse narrators, it was wonderful.

Another point completely : we know one of the Core 20 will die. And we know Arazni will be promoted there.

But do we know for sure that no current Core 20 deity will be demoted and replaced ?

PLEASE; I want Rovagug OFF that list, he's not thematically a "deity". Replace him with literally any demon lord; not only would it be BETTER, but there's a lot more stories you can tell about "destructive jerks who have a specific goal (that isn't to destroy the planet)" than "destructive jerks who just want to mindlessly ruin everything".

Unicore wrote:

I think a lot of people are assuming that this god’s death is going to be similar to Aroden’s in how it will impact the clergy and thus their potential characters, which I think is driving some anxiety. “Is my idea for a cleric of X, who gets this awesome divine weapon, domain, and bonus spells suddenly going to stop being possible?” I think if you all could address whether this god’s death is going to have that much of a mechanical impact for relevant characters or not could help set some minds at ease, or help players understand the mechanical impact of the decision on the game, even if you have to be quiet about the why.

One pet theory I'm hoping turns out to be true is that clerics will essentially become casterly exemplars. Perhaps something in this deity's dying, the same thing that lets their essence rain down and empower exemplars, finds the channels of devotion from the faithful and imbues them with some of that raining essence. Then existing clerics can function the same, calling for spells from the pieces of divinity inside of themselves, but no new clerics of this deity could acquire divine spellcasting from worshiping them.

...oh now that is a REALLY cool idea; I'd never before considered "in-'verse grandfathering of getting spellcasting from this particular deity", but now that you've mentioned it, I can't see how I HADN'T thought of it.

Re vision being an imprecise sense past a certain distance... statistically, if you don't yourself wear glasses, then you prolly know someone who relies on them.

keftiu wrote:

Why would Lamashtu writing the prophecies correspond with her being the one to actually die?

In a sense of pure spitballery, perhaps these prophecies are not as secret as Yivali thinks they are, and some other god/gods have found out about them, and is not happy. That, or they may contain some hints of truth that said god wants to keep secret.

Admittedly, I'm not sure who this spitball is supposed to land on; the venn diagram of a god who was in the prophecies, is capable enough to discover these prophecies, and rash enough to cause some massive upset among the deities by going after the Mother of Monsters, is a pretty small one.

*shrug* Might be someone who wasn't the direct subject of one, but still was upset by it? Either on another's behalf, or because they were incidentally mentioned and Didn't Like It.

...okay yeah that is indeed a good argument. Can't decide what that would MEAN though.

Valeros follows Cayden and always holds his holy symbol by his side. I actually associate Valeros with Cayden more than Len with Shelyn.

I was specifically looking at "deities who aren't confirmed safe".

Is there an illustration that references Zatoichi, next to it?

Also, might I ask you to keep a running tally of how many times you go "oh I recognize that as a reference to XYZ piece of media"? And then share the end total once you've read the whole thing.

...I'm hoping that someone has a specially-made Yivali plushie they show off on stream for a bit. Or even like, an extant birb plushie they made a mask for, like out of paper and tape, for the event.

Okay. Lemme just go through who all is possible again....
Abadar, Calistria, Gorum, Gozreh, Iomedae, Lamashtu, Norgorber, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Torag

My money's on Iomedae or Sarenrae, for two reasons.

First, I don't particularly want either of them to die, and I always try to bet on things I do NOT want to happen, thus I win either way (which can also be looked at as "losing either way", but that's a philosophical matter).

Second, they're both HIGHLY represented by iconics -- Merisiel has ribbons in Calistria's colours, but that's not the same -- which I judge to make them MORE likely to die, instead of LESS.
I'd be willing to bet actual money that in the book, we get a section of "how do people react to their god dying", and accompanying it is one of two illustrations: someone in utter grief, or someone in the "continuing on with living your life after a massive loss" stage. (Like, I think both of those illustrations would be IN the book, I just don't know which of those would be attached to that particular section.)
I'd also be willing to bet money that there'll be a section on characters who get power from that deity, what happens when the deity is no longer around to grant spells.
Iconics are used for a reason; that an illustration tends to be better received if it's of characters we already know.
Of the ten deities left, half of them have a worshipper among the iconics, off the top of my head. Calistria and Merisiel, Amiri and Gorum, Seelah and Iomedae, Kyra and Sarenrae, and Lem and Shelyn. (If there's others, I don't know them, thus I'd say they don't count for these purposes.) Thus, if there were no other considerations, it'd be a 50% chance of being able to illustrate "my deity is dead" with a well-known (to me) iconic, and a 20% chance to do show "what happens to my magic" with one of them.

My second point isn't infallible; there's prolly characters SOMEWHERE in the books who not only worship but get divine spells from any of the other gods. (Now might be a good time to mention that I've been able to read very few of the actual sourcebooks.) But like, there's multiple arguments for and against literally every single possibility, and at some point you just have to say "I know this isn't guaranteed, but this is what I'm guessing".

Which is basically why I don't see how it can be Torag. It's just too inconsequential. If even the dwarves aren't that bothered, who else is going to care? Blacksmiths and engineers (who aren't a major constituency) can go to Brigh, for example.

I'll pick Gorum or Gozreh.

I return to the example of Franz Ferdinand.

I'd also disagree with your statement that they wouldn't be BOTHERED. Just because it wouldn't throw their system into chaos, doesn't mean it wouldn't cause damage or change, or that they wouldn't grieve.