Jason S wrote:
Well the fundamental problem is that infamy as a concept only works when the organization isn't narratively and ethically evil like the Pathfinder Society is. Even in it's supposedly neutral state it's still really evil.
Ferious Thune wrote:
Biting Ants has the Venture Captain tell you not commit acts of genocide. Its the scenario I really hope you weren't referring to as you are able to complete it with wanton murderer but..... you are objectively and even from the briefing a wanton murderer.
Pathfinder doesn't do this enough, and it leads to all kinds of issues
Pathfinder is a game line which has in its history tried to justify torture and mind control as inherently good..... Im not sure if relying on them is such a good idea.
Ferious Thune wrote:
I mean the issue is that the scenario I'm thinking of if I were to legitimately not be beholden to PFS rules I probably would flip the parties alignment directly to evil if they did that.Edit:
To clarify it suspiciously sounds like you described a scenario that you can engage in what the literal definition of a genocide is.
Ferious Thune wrote:
Actually if its the scenario I'm thinking of then the GM is entirely within the right to alignment infraction you if you kill everything you encounter.Edit:
It's probably not the one I'm thinking of as you can't complete it killing everyone in the scenario.
Bob Jonquet wrote:
Yes actually it does. Wayangs are really the only oddish race in that regard but all the other ones have had massive plot reasons why as to why they exist in large droves.
The eidolon and spells were never the issue though. It was always the sheer amount of ridiculously goofy and oddball things you could do with summoning and summoning alone which did not change between class revisions. Paizo actively made that aspect even more over powered as time went on. Hell even PFS overseeing the Unchained Eidolon has resulted in wonky stuff.
It's not. Those races are actively called out as having ethnicities whereas the others aren't. Any other example just falls under being really really really creepy and RAW against the refluffing rules. And yes NPCs do have tactics against specific ethnicities.
Aasimar are a weird case for plot reasons but the other three have specific racial traits which actively call them out as being other ethnicities than a generic half orc, half elf, and kitsune. Its why all my friendly cinnamon bun half orcs are technically Osirion.
The problem with their argument is that its actively called out in multiple places of additional resources that its human ethnicity. I think technically you could still get the trait if your human, half-elf, half-orc, and kitsune but other than that its a no-go.
Which is how we get to "I'd rather not play in an organized play group with players who are arguing in favor of slavery, torture, and rape", I guess.
Yeah I agree with you. I just changed thought process mid statement because your argument reminded of legal material (Alignment Elixir) that is called out as torture yet is strangely legal??? and good????. Why????
Its not really that confusing as it is stated in the fluff that there is a relatively large number of people who have every right to find the good gods evil and are angry at them. And that's not even getting into the weird good???? stuff that is PFS legal that is described as zealous slavery or mind control.
Here is Rose's complete sheet. I made a few changes to her racial abilities. I feel like Overlooked Mastermind is a better fit for her friendly nature. As I said earlier she is a Sarenrae worshiper. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
Half Orc Amnesiac Psychic 1 Sarenrae Worshiper
Init: 2 Senses: Perception: +6
AC: 15 Touch:12 FF: 13
HP 9/9 Fort:2 Reflex:2 Will:4
Speed: 30 ft
Melee: Dagger -1 (1d4-1 19-20/x2);
Psychic Spells Known (CL 1; concentration +5)
1st 4/day- Bless, Magic Missile, Mind Thrust I (DC 15)
Oth At will- Detect Magic, Grave Words, Light, Telekinetic Projectile
Str 8(-1) Dex 14 14 (+2) Con 14 (+2) Int 18 (+4) Wis 14(+2) Cha 12 (+1)
BAB +0 CMB-1 CMD 11
Skills: Craft(Alchemy): +8; Diplomacy: +8; Knowledge (planes): +8; Knowledge (religion) +8; Linguistics: +8; Profession (Barkeep) +6; Perception: +6; Sense Motive: +8; Spellcraft: +8;
Expanded Phrenic Pool
Phrenic Pool: 4
Psychic Discipline: Faith
Phrenic Amplifications: Will of the Dead
Racial: Overlooked Mastermind, Skilled
Traits: Armor Expert, Subject of Study(Demon)
So I'm going to make a psychic named Rose. She's a half orc that doesn't remember anything about her life. She was discovered after a battle in the Worldwound wearing the uniform for the crusaders. Unfortunately, after a extensive search of records there was no sign that she ever existed let alone fought. Eventually, she turned for the Professor to help her cope with her situation. News of his death hit her particularly hard as she was finally coming to terms with her situation running a small tavern.
Build wise I'm obviously going to go with the amnesiac psychic. Her background is vague just because well she doesn't remember much. This build is incomplete but for the most part more or less done.
Female Half-Orc psychic 1
LG medium humanoid (orc, human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +6,
hp 9 (1HD)
Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +4
Face 5 ft. Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +0; CMB -1; CMD 11
Abilities Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 12
Special Qualities Deity, Divine Energy, Faith, Intimidating, Knacks, Orc Blood, Orc Ferocity, Phrenic Amplifications, Phrenic Pool, Psychic Discipline (Ex or Sp), Repressed Memories, Skilled, Spell Recollection, Spells, Spells, Weapon and Armor Proficiency, Weapon Familiarity, Will of the Dead,
Feats Expanded Phrenic Pool
Skills Acrobatics +2, Appraise +4, Bluff +1, Climb -1, Craft (Untrained) +4, Diplomacy +5, Disguise +1, Escape Artist +2, Fly +2, Heal +2, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (Planes) +8, Knowledge (Religion) +8, Linguistics(Abyssal) +8, Perception +6, Perform (Untrained) +1, Ride +2, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +8, Stealth +2, Survival +2, Swim -1,
Deity (Ex) At 1st level, choose a deity to worship. Your alignment must remain within one step of your deity's or you lose access to all this discipline's bonus spells and discipline powers.
Divine Energy You can channel spell energy into cure or inf lict spells. This ability functions similarly to the cleric's ability to spontaneously cast cure or inf lict spells, and the type of spells you can convert depends on your alignment in the same way. The cure or inf lict spells don't count as being on your psychic spell list for the purposes of any other effects. Each day, you can convert up to one spell from each spell level you can cast. Each time you use this ability to convert a spell, you regain 1 point in your phrenic pool. The maximum number of points you can regain in this way per day is equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Faith Your belief in a higher power fuels your psychic abilities. Whether your mental abilities truly come to you as a divine gift or are simply enhanced by the power of your belief, none can say. In many ways, you resemble a divine caster, and prayers often factor into your casting of psychic spells. Phrenic Pool Ability: Wisdom. Discipline Powers: Your powers serve to protect or cure you and your allies.
Fate's Favored The fates watch over you. Whenever you are under the effect of a luck bonus of any kind, that bonus increases by 1.
Intimidating (Ex) Half-orc receive a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate skill checks due to their fearsome nature.
Orc Blood (Ex) Half-orc count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Orc Ferocity (Ex) 1/day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points, but not killed, he can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
Phrenic Amplifications A psychic develops particular techniques to empower her spellcasting, called phrenic amplifications. The psychic can activate a phrenic amplification only while casting a spell using psychic magic, and the amplification modifies either the spell's effects or the process of casting it. The spell being cast is called the linked spell. The psychic can activate only one amplification each time she casts a spell, and doing so is part of the action used to cast the spell. She can use any amplification she knows with any psychic spell, unless the amplification's description states that it can be linked only to certain types of spells. A psychic learns one phrenic amplification at 1st level, selected from the list below. At 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter, the psychic learns a new phrenic amplification. A phrenic amplification can't be selected more than once. Once a phrenic amplification has been selected, it can't be changed. Phrenic amplifications require the psychic to expend 1 or more points from her phrenic pool to function.
Phrenic Pool (Su) A psychic has a pool of supernatural mental energy that she can draw upon to manipulate psychic spells as she casts them. The maximum number of points in a psychic's phrenic pool is 2. The phrenic pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours don't need to be consecutive. The psychic might be able to recharge points in her phrenic pool in additional circumstances dictated by her psychic discipline. Points gained in excess of the pool's maximum are lost.
Psychic Discipline (Ex or Sp) Each psychic accesses and improves her mental powers through a particular method, such as rigorous study or attaining a particular mental state. This is called her psychic discipline. She gains additional spells known based on her selected discipline. The choice of discipline must be made at 1st level; once made, it can't be changed. Each psychic discipline gives the psychic a number of discipline powers (at 1st, 5th, and 13th levels), and grants her additional spells known. In addition, the discipline determines which ability score the psychic uses for her phrenic pool and phrenic amplifications abilities. The DC of a saving throw against a psychic discipline ability equals 10 + 1/2 the psychic's level + the psychic's Intelligence modifier. At 1st level, a psychic learns an additional spell determined by her discipline. She learns another additional spell at 4th level and every 2 levels thereafter, until learning the final one at 18th level. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 1-8. Spells learned from a discipline can't be exchanged for different spells at higher levels. Specific psychic disciplines are further described starting on page 64.
Repressed Memories All the amnesiac's older memories have been deeply hidden, as though she had been affected by multiple repress memory* spells. She isn't prevented from remembering things that happen over the course of a game, but might be forgetful. If the amnesiac's memories are ever restored, she loses this archetype and reverts to a standard psychic.
Skilled Second- and third-generation half-orcs often favor their human heritage more than their orc heritage. Half-orcs with this trait gain 1 additional skill rank per level.
Spell Recollection (Ex) Once per hour as a swift action, an amnesiac can attempt to remember any spell from the psychic spell list of her choice from either of the 2 highest spell levels she can cast. When she does, she rolls on Table 2-1: Spell Recollection to determine the result. Because the mental stress of combat brings memories to the surface more easily, the amnesiac adds 1d10 to this roll's result if she's in combat when she attempts to recall a spell. Regardless of the result, the amnesiac expends an amnesia slot of the appropriate level for the spell she is attempting to remember; she must cast the spell remembered (if any) using that amnesia slot during the same round, or the spell slot is lost without effect. Once a spell has been remembered in this way, the amnesiac can cast it as one of her spells known for the rest of the day (even if she failed to cast the spell during the round in which she remembered it), unless spell recollection allowed her to cast a spell of a higher level than she would normally be able to cast.
Spells An amnesiac's ability to cast psychic spells is the same as that of the psychic class, with the following exceptions. An amnesiac's faulty memory makes remembering and casting spells difficult, but the increased flexibility can be a great benefit. Instead of choosing a number of spells known from Table 1-8: Psychic Spells Known, an amnesiac accesses spells she knew the previous day from the recesses of her mind. This requires 1 hour of meditation. Each day, for each spell level the amnesiac can cast, she retains a number of spells known equal to half the number listed on Table 1-8, rounded up. These spells must be selected from spells the amnesiac knew the previous day (including any spells she remembered using spell recollection; see below). The remainder of her spells known (half the number on Table 1-8, rounded down) become amnesia slots, which the amnesiac can use with her spell recollection ability (see below). To determine the spells she knows on the day when she first takes this archetype, the amnesiac picks any one 1st-level spell from the psychic spell list. This change to spells doesn't apply to knacks (0-level spells) or discipline spells, which function the same way they do for a normal psychic. When the amnesiac gains access to 3rd-level spells, she gains full recall of her 1st-level spells and no longer gains 1st-level amnesia slots, instead gaining the full number of 1st-level spells known from Table 1-8 and casting them as a normal psychic. When this happens, the amnesiac can select any level-appropriate spells from the psychic spell list as her spells known, even if they were never among the spells she prepared or recalled; once selected, these spells can no longer be changed, as with a normal psychic. Each time the psychic gains access to a new level of spells, she gains full memory of spells 2 levels lower in the same way (gaining full memory and permanently selecting her 2nd-level spells when she gains access to 4thlevel spells, and so on). This ability alters spellcasting.
Spells A psychic casts psychic spells drawn from the psychic class's spell list (see page 69). She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a psychic must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a psychic's spell is equal to 10 + the spell's level + the psychic's Intelligence modifier. A psychic can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1-7: Psychic. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1-3 on page 17 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook). The psychic's selection of spells is limited. A psychic begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the psychic's choice. At each new psychic level, she learns one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 1-8: Psychic Spells Known. Unlike a psychic's spells per day, the number of spells a psychic knows isn't affected by her Intelligence score; the numbers on Table 1-8 are fixed. At 4th level and every even-numbered level thereafter (6th, 8th, and so on), a psychic can choose to learn a single new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the psychic loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least 1 level lower than the highest-level spell from the psychic's class list that the psychic can cast. A psychic can swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level. A psychic need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any psychic spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.
Subject of Study (Demon) Professor Lorrimor approached you as part of his studies, as he had heard that you had survived a recent encounter with a strange monster or had another fateful encounter. Interested in the conditions of the run-in and the means by which you avoided death or injury, he met with you and maintained frequent correspondence until several months ago. The scars of your experience and his continual reminders of the encounter prompted you to hone your skills lest you someday face the same type of creature again. The professor assisted you in this endeavor, providing you with insight into the anatomy and defenses of the creature that attacked you. Years of study have improved your combat effectiveness against your chosen foe. Choose a non-humanoid creature type (and subtype if outsider). You gain a +1 bonus on damage rolls against creatures of this type.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency A psychic is proficient with all simple weapons, but not with any type of armor or shield.
Will of the Dead (Su) Even undead creatures can be affected by the psychic's mind-affecting spells. The psychic can spend 2 points from her phrenic pool to overcome an undead creature's immunity to mind-affecting effects for the purposes of the linked spell. This ability functions even on mindless undead, but has no effect on creatures that aren't undead. This amplification can be linked only to spells that have the mind-affecting descriptor.
Douglas Edwards wrote:
Only half orcs are automatically proficient with the weapons.
Such a bummer to. I received potions and poisons for my birthday because a friend knew how much I like those kinda characters and I was excited to use some of the stuff in it. I mean, I get why, all resources eventually be moved to 2e, but it seems like a such a bummer not to "finish" the 1e stuff first. :(
Wait what? The PRD and additional resources are two completely different things.
Kwinten Koëter wrote:
That DC 24 Diplomacy check is very difficult to make if you have a Charisma of 10 or didn't spend a skill point at each level, for instance. How can we make this fair?
Actually, its really easy to make a DC 24 check with a base score of 10 and less skill points of every level. That's kind of what makes specialists really bad trying to base difficulty around because in that tier range depending on the skill you'll have around a 20 base check.
Just as an observation if you built out the NPC boss correctly she would do 6d6+int bomb damage which is probably why they fudged the rules. Even without the bombs 4d6+int touch sneak attack from a flask is still pushing it. I noticed this in another recent scenario but they probably just toned it down so that she isn't an extremely deadly challenge.
No. I'm not using hyperbole. I also know you are incapable of noticing because it's appears as a relatively common quirk. That and symptoms tend to be all over the place. At the table it was just severe short term memory loss. I never really asked beyond that because it was also really depressing because you aren't wrong. Especially, since its not the first time I've known people in PFS with the exact issue to the point where they needed help. The only difference as far as I could tell is the symptoms manifested in other ways.
No. The classes were pretty distinguished in how they played and varied. The problem with multiclassing in 4E is a problem that Paizo hasn't shown they fixed in that feats that were fun cool and flavorful competed with feats that were dull as a used razor but kind of indispensable.
Selene Spires wrote:
Except 4e had 3e multiclassing and the words broken mess of a system were used to describe it. 4e did strike upon the best implementation which was a cross combination of an archetype and background that had its own progression. I'd need to look at them more to elaborate but it because made characters far more distinct than 3.x multiclassing.
The problem is that you are ignoring the issue that the game is so borked that one could just accidentally build a better rogue out of multiple different core classes. There are about three to four different core classes that all are different variations of rogue and each one having a mechanical hook that differentiates and makes them more interesting than the base class.
John Lynch 106 wrote:
Multiclassing in 4E took a while for them to release and even then it was in a state of brokeness that 3E exhibited which was that if you didn't know what you were doing you would end up with a worst mechanical class. Also the other form of multiclassing in 4E was odd in that conceptually it was much more involved than just take x,y, and z feats but I don't remember how well it worked. Halfway through the game you could just change class progression to a ranger or rogue but I dont remember how viable it was.
No because well society is still pretty horrid when it comes to a lot of issues and most of this is relatively new compared to the archaic PFS rules. This is why I still stand by the jerk standpoint because of comments like this.
They are physically incapable of remembering the rules which is a common enough issue that I doubt most people aren't aware of it.
Well it is because you can't actually figure out what is wrong with the person looking at them. And at that point it does make you a jerk. That was my original point and why I told you you were rubbernecking. You can't tell when people are physically incapable of doing something. And its not really something that should be up to arbitrary whim which is why I said its exclusionary.
Well I could just say what the issue is but the rules are physically painful for people to follow just sounds worst than they are exclusionary. And no I'm not actually joking about that.
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
He is not asking for personal information, he's asking for general examples. If you aren't comfortable sharing situations even stripped of private information, that's understandable. But don't expect us to accept 'it just is' as a valid reason.
I mean you pretty much guessed what the issue is and then are acting like its some mysterious thing that needs examples for. At that point you just want to rubberneck.
Partially, the reason why I am being so flippant about this is that most of the advice Tallow is giving is useless.
That's because your acting creepy and intrusive in regards to people I GM for? Just dam well accept it and stop acting like its some conspiracy.
Filling out paperwork is harder than you would think for an significant portion of the player base. Its something that is flagrantly obvious when you think about it but apparently not??? And I've hit some really unnoticeable cases of people who have a hard time doing that.
ITS sheets aren't filled out correctly and no tracking of prestige or fame. The record keeping rules are bad exclusionary and really don't work and its really hard to tell if it not being filled out is malicious or not at times.
GM Tyrant Princess wrote:
Is Pathfinder Society that homogenized where you never run into a situation where you feel evil for enforcing the rules? I can think of three scenarios off the top of my head where I've kind of chucked the rules because they don't take into account issues people have. And the part that makes me leery about enforcing the rules like a hardliner is that the third scenario its impossible to tell why they would have issues unless you were told.EDIT:
Also, I'm not trying to accuse anyone of anything. Its just that evil would be the word to describe the situations I've been in.
Stephen Ross wrote:
It is but its also impossible to do correctly in any sort of timely fashion. Seriously, how do you expect me to audit people who its physically impossible to fill out a chronicle sheet in the way you want it to.
Gummy Bear wrote:
I just checked the character I'm self auditing and she had 10,000 gp around then. It's easily doable. I think how it happens is that certain chronicles give out double the expected wealth by value if you play them in the right order.Edit:
It depends on the circumstances. The rules are obnoxiously impossible in certain cases and without knowing more it's hard to say.
Blake's Tiger wrote:
A sylph has the option to gain blanket immunity to some of the worst spells in the game.Edit
I misspoke. You'll invalidate a lot of tactics early on but after a point higher level versions negate that advantage.
Good point ;).
What that is what Monte Cook admitted? It's debatable whether or not it actually was intentional but 3E is a very confusing system with a bunch of useless options in it.Edit:
Also, the reason why I play PF is that it's kind of a gonzo system and setting which is reflected in the mechanics.
To be fair, 3rd edition went through a complete revision just 2 years after release, and the substantial changes to the ranger in that case were just a small sliver of the overall changes to the core.
Actually the major revision to 3E that fixed a lot of it's problems was 4E. There is really no way to salvage 3E as game system because even by the creators own admission they purposefully added bad elements into the game as a design point and made it ridiculously obtuse that they did that. Even the stuff retained from 3E the developers admitted had issues in 4th in that you had limited resources (feats) which competed for cool stuff and stuff that was kind of needed.
They rewrote the Ranger because it really doesn't work as a class at all.
Since when have skills ever been the defining thing of a character? I know there are skill monkey classes but even then that isn't necessarily the thing that defines my character.
In the 3X games I've been playing for going on to 20 years now, there have certainly been times when frontal assault was decided to be the best plan. But there have also been times when the group came up with solutions, often including elements of magic, by which characters who were not at all built with stealth in mind, were included in "sneaky" missions. But rather than just hand waving that *everybody knows how to sneak past a bunch of trained guards*, the really sneaky guys and spallcasters had to expend resources and carry the weight of these "stealth deadbeats" because they knew that having the whole team together on the other side would be worth it. And them, instead of it simply being an easy matter of this group of competents to waltz in, a risky situation followed and much drama and excitement was had as they put their plan into action.
Its literally a third level spell. One that you can make copies of till the cows come home.
John Lynch 106 wrote:
I wouldn't cite the system that is so horribly imbalanced that they decided to rewrite an entire chunk of core as evidence of anything.EDIT:
Not that 4th edition didn't have that problem either but that was a far more harder problem to solve than make a core class functionable.
Brock Landers wrote:
I'm looking at it and what does it do? It seems like its just a generic 3E fighter.
Pathfinder had the spellcaster rouge. Its called the Investigator and it works ridiculously well.
Mats Öhrman wrote:
Except we don't actually know if the Bards won't be able to give out +5 bonuses with regularity. Mark says they don't but anyone fishing for bonuses in PF 1 quickly learns that spell boosts scale faster and are easier to obtain.
Mark Seifter wrote:
Truth be told Inspire Courage is such a boring ability that I'm surprised you didn't just replace it with something else. Even in Pathfinder 1 the more useful buffing abilities that you could gain access from classes to usually did something more than just add static modifiers to attack, damage, and saves.
It isn't but it also really is kind of a pain in the butt in terms of combat because if you design around it you can negate pretty much every single sos that can get thrown at you. I know one of my characters is built around the concept of,"What's the worst possible thing Paizo can throw at a player and how do I negate it easily?".
Actually the quick answer is yes. Yes there is. I don't know how common it is but there are archetypes that say the animal is intelligent enough to not need to learn tricks or be handled anymore.
Level 7-11 Scenarios where you defeat a haunt, become possessed, or defeat divs / necromancers? (Spoilers?)
I am only 1 more goal away from becoming a jeweled sage of the Sacarab Sages and either need to become possessed via a magic jar or a similar ability, permanently destroy a haunt, or defeat divs, followers of divs, or an evil necromancer. The thing is, it has to be a 7-11 scenario as my wizard is level 10 and going slow. Does any one know which scenarios or modules can fulfill these requirements?
That one is easy. Never thought about it until it was pointed out but you could just have someone in the group do it.
Paul Jackson wrote:
You do realize that there is overlap between the two right? I have fiveish Pathfinder characters which by how they are designed have to invest in skills to get better at combat. And some of those characters are arguably better than a two handed barbarian.
Paul Jackson wrote:
What are you playing as because there is an not insignificant chunk of classes where being well rounded has the side effect of making you more combat effective.
No it doesn't because what you describe is more of the norm than anything. Conflict of intrest gets bizarre as all hell in these sort of situations because very often its completely unavoidable.