Churgri of Vapula

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Organized Play Member. 28 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 6 Organized Play characters.


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Maybe a class ability or Feature that gives the choice to the player "You gain Either Legendary in unarmed attacks or Legendary in Class DC. Which ever one you choose, no matter what features you take, you cannot increase the other to Legendary"

Envoy's Alliance

As far as Themes and flavors go, even if you one for one them, and use the Familiar Thesis on the wizard remember this:

A wizard's familiar works for them. The relationship is owner and pet

A witch's familiar works for their patron, not the witch. The relationship is Rep and supervisor.

Envoy's Alliance

Yeah, I think I put that in the wrong place

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I have an idea for a catch-all feat/ability for this

Gadge (Gizmo/doodad): Free action. You've cafted a so many little devices, you have one for all situations. once per minute, when attempting a skill check, you can perform a crafting check against a normal class DC (If the check requires trained or better, the Crafting check is against a hard DC, if it requires master, make this against a very hard DC) If you pass the DC, you may attempt the check, substituting your Intelligence modifier for the ability modifier normally used for this check.

Envoy's Alliance

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Okay, I tried the class out over the weekend and... I don't know if going into Overdrive was worth it. I got off one hit with Overdrive on. It doesn't help my being able to hit, so being MAD means it's less reliable on on all fronts. Not to mention I was knocked out in two successive hits in the second find. Spent the whole time unconscious until my last round which I just used to scramble out of danger. Played the level 5 version. Just... Overdrive should do more. maybe a +1 circumstance bonus based on innovation.

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I like the idea of spending extra actions to lower the Unstable DC, especially if it's a very hard DC. Just let it carry over. Let's say:
Turn 1: Unstable two action, strike
Turn Two: Two action ability, Lower DC (Tinker)
Turn Three: Unstable Ability two action

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Well the playtest Inventor I made is a Level 5 Versatile Human inventor
Tamper, and Explosive Leap
Kickback Strike
Megaton Strike (spelled properly: MAULING MEGATON STRIKE!!!)
Weapon Innovation (maul) with segmented Frame.

I am using the Teacher Background. I was a teacher in Absolom before I made my breaththrough (became a level 1 inventor). Now I want to test it out under all manner of challenges, the Pathfinder society is the best for this!

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Thanks!

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I like the idea of Still getting the effect on a fail. I figure the damage and lock out are enough punishment, but don't waste the action(s) too.

Now, I'm new to Pathfinder (just started playing this year) and I can find the leveled DC's. But I can't find these "Hard" and "Very Hard" ones I see y'all referring to, where can I find that either in the CRB or Archive?

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Well considering you can advance your crafting faster than your Class DC, I figured this would give you a slightly better chance to beat your own DC, while getting to far from 50/50.

If not then how about this: Unstable DC = Inventor DC at time unstable action was added. Lock that DC in for that action, it would make sense that unstable actions you've had longer become easier to keep functioning, but harder to keep the newer more complicated ones functioning.

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I was going to say, this class makes me think RWBY. with Kickback Strike, Transforming Weapon, Offensive Boost... I wanna be a huntsman....

Envoy's Alliance

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So um... Why not roll a crafting check against your own inventor class DC?

To reset unstable that is. Just a thought.

I like Unstable as a separate mechanism from Focus. The chance built in means that whether or not it continues to function is in question, unlike with Focus. Focus, if you have a focus point, it will work. Even an Oracle, they KNOW what will happen. This is more in keeping with the mad scientist we are all wanting to play.

Envoy's Alliance

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A modification for Weapon and armor using int would be nice. Allowing to use your Int for your attack roll instead of the normal stat(Or let your construct do it)

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I wanted to bring up a couple things. At least two feats, Explosive Leap, and Searing Restoration mention that they cause an explosion. Given that a base class ability is called "Explode" Should we read this as they give an explosion? It doesn't make sense that it would, but the phrasing is confusing. It's just a thought.

To go along with what someone else said renaming "Explode" to "Discharge" or "Explosive Discharge" would remove this confusion, and give a rise to a modification feat down the line to make it the same energy as your Offensive Boost

Overall LOVE this class. Small note, Megaton Strike clearly needs to be all caps and requires three exclamation points.

Envoy's Alliance

Captain Morgan wrote:
Eeeeey good on you. And yes, most of us agree the four day rule isn't great. It is also trivial to house rule though.

Took me a while to get my head out of my hamster-hole, but I got there. as fair as houe rule though... I've only gotten to play Society play so far.

Staffan Johansson wrote:


It sort of makes sense that it should take some time to craft things, though. Were I to house rule that, I'd say that savings start accruing over those four days, but they still remain a minimum (at least for non-consumables).

So let's say you're working on a Staff of Healing (level 4, 90 gp), and you're an Expert at crafting. You work on it for four days, and spend 45 gp worth of supplies, and succeed at your Crafting check. You now have 45 gp + 4x 8 sp = 48.2 gp worth of staff done, and you can either spend the remaining 41.8 gp in raw materials right away to finish it, or you can work on it for an additional 53 days, or some combination.

Speaking of which, it would make more sense that you have to decide at the outset of a crafting project how much you want to pay in materials and how much you want to pay with sweat - basically, how pre-processed are the materials you're buying? But given that crafting is already pretty weak, it's not a change I'm inclined to make by itself. Could be part of a package to make crafting overall better though.

Except, RAW you don't earn income for those first four days. So after four days you are still only at 45gp of staff done. That's the point I now state is irrational. yes, I definitely agree with you that being able to lower the upfront cost at the expense of increasing Downtime needed to craft makes sense, and the downtime needed being decided by Earned income checks makes sense too. It's just... that wasted four days.

Envoy's Alliance

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I've finally gotten my head on straight enough to accept that If it weren't for that four day penalty (You pay half the money, wait four days, and then pay the other half OR down time enough earned income to cover the cost) Without those four days, it would make sense. That four days still annoys me. One for one does make sense if I think it through enough, but for it to have that four day penalty... still gets me.

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Okay, so I'm trying to take a breath and state something that may not be obvious: I don't understand this logic. I don't understand why Punishing people for crafting is "power balance". That's doesn't mean I'm right, this is me desperate for someone to make this make sense to me.

Why are they willing to have a broken economy in world?
Why allow crafting AT ALL if it is going to come at a penalty?

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That's fair.

I'm going to maintain IF fixed, it might be useful as a support function.

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Captain Morgan wrote:


Yes, and mechanically that is represented as you getting a discount on the item. It just so happens that the discount is the same as what you could make earning income.

But you don't get a discount, you in fact spend time spend more time/money to craft than to buy.

Quote:
I have no idea what point you're trying to make here, since I already noted the immersion issue. Although, in the short term, making a single item can indeed be more expensive than buying it. If you don't already have infrastructure for tools, work space, and materials? It isn't very cost effective. In the case of an alchemist who already supplies and tools with them, not so much, but if you're making a sword? Sure, why not.

This was me being frustratedly sarcastic, so less than helpful.

Quote:
They could, and probably have, but PCs don't actually intersect with the world's economy beyond dumping large sums of gold into it. There's very little reason to make player facing rules that represent an...

Other than players who want one. Yeah, no reason what so ever.

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@Shroudb Not gonna argue, it takes a lot to make it useful

@Rexaliquid: Or, if you're fighting a creature resistant to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing they could grab a bomb and do some damage, or grab an elixer to perk them up, heal themselves.

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Because I"m not earning income, I'm devoting my time and my skill to making something specific.

And immersion... you mean based on common sense in world? You mean it doesn't make sense in world that making something costs more than buying it?! Wow!

And to those who want to whine about how it's not an Economics simulator... what If my party wants to run a bar or store? what if we want to do something like that as a base of operations?

In D&D AL they had a subplot for a season about how your party was now running a tavern

I have trouble believing that a system that is so much better (And PF 2E IS better than 5e in my opinion) can't come up with some kind of workable economy.

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So yeah, I don't see the need for the feat to make this work IF and only IF they mean worn and not stowed.

One of the things I do at the start of every encounter is to "remind" my party that which side my healing potions are on. At level 17, you are likely making enough items that you welcome other players to grab what they need.

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Okay First Flight has tons of uses beyond keeping you out of melee, so that is not an apt comparison.

Second: yeah, we know crafting can make you more as earn income, and that's about it for down time usefulness. And that was his point.

Also, the house-rule patch you suggested only makes it so you aren't punished for attempting to craft an item, You are still paying full price to craft which makes no sense. Like Zapp said, a discount isn't going to break the game. Whether it's 50% or 20%

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Zapp wrote:


Thank you for acknowledging what so few other posters are able to see.

I find that phrasing it this way is the best way to open the eyes of people believing Crafting is cool, useful or any other positive trait.

In actuality all those rules obscure the simple fact Paizo has written perhaps the most miserly, limited and useless crafting rules I've seen in any rpg product ever.

---

About "money equals power".

Let me say: That's technically accurate, but a really weird way to look it. ;)

When item cost is so very exponential, it's not like a 20% discount could buy you something broken anyway. Sure you can purchase 20% more cheap low-level items. But you could already purchase as many low-level items as you like, again because the pricing is so very exponential.

So in the context of PF1, maybe. But not in PF2.

All the insane restrictions on crafting might make sense from a PF1 angle. But not when viewed against the actual PF2 rules.

tl;dr: the PF2 crafting rules could have been vastly simplified and less restrictive and actually generous and it would not have changed a thing (as regards "OMG now its brokenly good")

THANK YOU! It is not broken to let me craft a batch of common alchemical items at a discount, especially if it is possible for me to fail that crafting check. I'm all for The possibilty to fail an attempt to craft an item, and even critically fail, wasting the money you originally put in. But to succeed and still spend more making it than buying it is asinine.

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Staffan Johansson wrote:


Spells, attacks, and skills are all part of the stuff you gain when you level up. You're also supposed to be gaining a certain amount of gear as you level up. This is accounted for in the game. One might argue about particular balance points, but basically an Xth level character is supposed to have Y amount of capability.

Allowing a character to "super-charge" this capability via downtime crafting of consumables (or accumulation of wealth, which is basically the same thing) runs the risk of breaking the game. I think the risk of such is probably smaller in PF2 than in PF1, both because of item levels putting a cap on what you supposedly can access and because item costs accelerate much faster than in PF1 (in PF1, a +5 item cost 25 times as much as a +1 item, but in PF1 a +3 item costs 140 to 400 times as much as a +1 item). So the risk in PF2 is more about endurance and versatility than top-level output, but it's still there.

Oh, so no matter what the individual does, the character should never be more or less effective than any other character? Which makes it sound like the player agency is an illusion

Quote:


As an alchemist, the assumption is that you'll be using your daily reagents for your alchemy needs. Niche items you only need occasionally is what Quick Alchemy is for. Crafting "proper" alchemical items is basically the equivalent of a wizard crafting scrolls.

I've burned through my entirely daily prep without finishing a quest leaving me to resorting to a sling to do anything useful. While a spell caster can say something similar, they have cantrips to fall back on.

Also, the lore of the class is that they are crafters, so why are they such terrible crafters?

This whole thing just smacks of Hostile Design because Paizo doesn't want to be bothered to find a balanced solution, so they want to discourage people from crafting.

Envoy's Alliance

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So the justification is that they think a crafting system that is useful is broken? Better get rid of spells that do damage, that's broken. Oh, and stop martial classes from hitting more than once in a turn, that's pretty broken. Oh, get rid of diplomacy and deception checks, that might get pretty broken.

Again, this PUNISHES you for trying to craft items since it costs more to craft than to buy. That is fair to you?

Why is "Crafting" the broken thing? I'm not looking to make Magic armor or anything, I"m looking to make common alchemical items. As an Alchemist it should not cost me more to make than it does to buy!

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Captain Morgan wrote:
Zoken44 wrote:

OKay I've read through most of the discussion on here and I say

Having a formula makes sense. There are rules for reverse engineering (Studying an item to get a formula) and watching someone is just them giving you the formula verbally and visually.

Now I'm play an alchemist in PFS. And here's what annoys me. There is no point in crafting any consumable objects myself. I'm a bomber. So I thought "Okay, I'll used my advanced Alchemy Reagents for ammunition, and spend my down time craft other items that could come in helpful in edge case scenarios. (I do advanced craft some elixirs of life too, I'm not an idiot) But it is literally cheaper for me to just purchase the items myself, rather than craft them. How does that make any flarking sense?

When you purchase something, you are not only paying for the goods of that item, but also for the effort to make it and for the person to turn a profit. But I have to expend all the gold, or time equivilant to gold meaning I'm not earning income, to craft it as I would to buy it. And the first four days I don't earn any income toward reducing the price of the item so It is litterally more expensive to craft than buy

My job is to be a well prepared support character, but a crap crafting system severely hinders my ability to do that.

If you're in an environment where you CAN purchase the items on a moment's notice, can't you just use Crafting to Earn income towards purchasing those items? I recognize that that feels a different than actually making the items you will use, but the distinction is also almost entirely flavor and therefore easy to reflavor.

The Craft activity is still your only option in environments where you can't just purchase those items, but I guess that's never the case for PFS.

SO please justify to me why it costs an Alchemist MORE to craft items, than it would cost to just buy it. This makes no sense for anyone with the crafting skill to pay full price or more to craft an item. Why is crafting an option at all if it costs just as much?! Why not just have a rule that states there are shops in forests and deserts because that makes about as much sense as crafting being as expensive or more than out right buying an item.

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OKay I've read through most of the discussion on here and I say

Having a formula makes sense. There are rules for reverse engineering (Studying an item to get a formula) and watching someone is just them giving you the formula verbally and visually.

Now I'm play an alchemist in PFS. And here's what annoys me. There is no point in crafting any consumable objects myself. I'm a bomber. So I thought "Okay, I'll used my advanced Alchemy Reagents for ammunition, and spend my down time craft other items that could come in helpful in edge case scenarios. (I do advanced craft some elixirs of life too, I'm not an idiot) But it is literally cheaper for me to just purchase the items myself, rather than craft them. How does that make any flarking sense?

When you purchase something, you are not only paying for the goods of that item, but also for the effort to make it and for the person to turn a profit. But I have to expend all the gold, or time equivilant to gold meaning I'm not earning income, to craft it as I would to buy it. And the first four days I don't earn any income toward reducing the price of the item so It is litterally more expensive to craft than buy

My job is to be a well prepared support character, but a crap crafting system severely hinders my ability to do that.