Hello everyone I have far from this forum for a time while I was reading some more books and played a little.
Now I back with some more alternative Shield Rules in more simplified and easier to apply that better the shields (specially the mundane ones) without making then too much resistance or indestructible at same time that's creates many new strategic options for the combat.
I removed the Sunder rules in trade of a simple resistance/weakness/vulnerability inspired in some elemental/vegetal monsters and itens. That's also helps to unarmed and natural attacks to exploit some shields weakness without need to rework the monsters abilities.
So follow my new homebrew rules for shield blocks:
New Alternative Shield Block Rules (3.0)
- The Wooden Shields (including darkwood) now have Piercing/Bludgeoning Resistance, Fire Weakness and Axe Vulnerability equals to the shield Hardness value.
I'm also adding a new high-grade class Wooden and Steel shield based in Darkwood and Silver/Mithral high grade versions. This shields costs x20 more than standard-grade ones (just like happens with the Darkwood and Mithral high-grade costs 20x more than their standard versions). This new shields help to fill the lack between the normal and sturdy shields and helps druids with stronger wooden shields:
New High-Grade Shields:
I also made some balances for some Specific Shield that is strangely weaker than their typical high-grade counter parts, making then a little more resistant a standardizing them based on their size:
Specific Shields balances:
To avoid fighters/champ's only block ability, I changed the Shield cantrip too to become more useful to block and make the use of this Cantrip more strategic:
Alternative Shield Cantrip Block Rules:
I also made change in Mending because the default Mending magic is completely unbalanced and is useless:
Alternative Mending Spell Rules:
Was just an example, I'm just trying to say that depending of the party and circumstances auto-success are not good applicable and take a 20 helps to know if is possible or not.
Mr. Pedantic wrote:
Really!? I didn't found Legendary Perception in my book or in SRD:https://pf2.d20pfsrd.com/class/rogue/
Yep, makes sense because as the perception is no more a skill, so everyone in a party have it. Now basically what make's diference between chars perception is their class abilities (all martial and specialist classes, except for the monk and champion, have high grade in perception and the ranger is the only one can achieve legendary perception) and some ancestries feats that allow to bonus perception checks in some circumstances.
But there's still some situations where simply without takes 20 allow they have success when there's no possible. For example if there's a very well hidden stone door with CD 34 that hidden rare valuable treasures, a LVL 7 party usually as never able to find it, but if this same party have a dwarf/elf fighter/thief/ranger with Ageless Patience or Stonecunning they will able to find it. If we simple auto find ignoring this little diferences between chars abilities we will ignore the players effort building their chars.
This probably is the Brazilian version of the book.
The pg. 620 have the condition "ferido" that's can be easily direct translated to injured but this page is talking about wounded condition.
But backing to Medicine checks, you can do booth things with the skill, you can recover HP and recover from wounded condition.
I will probably be cursed with this answer but maybe your party just needs a magical healer.
I agree the Medicine checks are complicated and have drawbacks but at least the heal skill "exists".
I older versions (PF1 and D&D 3/3.5) books there's almost no way to be fast healed than magic. The old heal skill only heals 1HP por lvl per day, basically only working for threat wound that can keep you dying. In this version medicine now is projected to allow non-magical heals to have some efficiency without totally depend from magical heals, but many drawbacks like fail chances and time was imposed to avoid this heal ability surpasses the magic heals and avoid make then useless.
That's probably the why medicine don't receive alternative faster and simple rules for free (you still can buy some medicine feats to better it but it's not "free" once you wast a skill feat to do it).
I usually don't allow re-checks during a dungeon exploration not only to avoid the player "just roll perception until the dice give's them a 20" (what is a metagame) but also to represent the tension behind staying too long in a dangerous place.
Another thing that make's me think that is no good to allow then to freely do re-checks is the Elfs Ageless Patience Feat:
Ageless Patience Feat wrote:
This Feat make's me to interpret that is not in game design to repeat perception tests based in how much time a char stay searching. The CRB prefers to allow a char to take more time searching and gives a bonus for this instead if he/she have enough patience for this. There's also other examples and instructions in Game Mastering ch. saying to reuse the results for repeated tests instead of re-roll.
Use the PF1 and SF is not good reference to know how the spell work once that many spells was changed in 2e.
Also, the text for such magics in older books call explicitly "all creatures", just 2e calls enemies. There's other area effect magics 2e that explicitly says creatures instead of enemies when they want to effect all. But the "Each creature in the area must attempt a Will save" is a common sentence used also in other spells just to say what save to use and not what creatures are effected, just like the Porridge example.
SF Synaptic Pulse wrote:
PF1 Synaptic Pulse wrote:
You emit a pulsating mental blast that stuns all creatures in range of your psychic shriek for 1d4 rounds. On a successful save, a creature is instead sickened for 1 round.
PF2 Synaptic Pulse wrote:
You emit a pulsating mental blast that penetrates the minds of all enemies in the area. Each creature in the area must attempt a Will save.
I don't think this is a fluffy.
The secret rolls are negotiated with you and your players. The CRB just suggest it:
"CRB Pg. 234 wrote:
This rule is the default for actions with the secret trait, but the GM can choose not to use secret checks if they would rather some or all rolls be public.
Besides that usually you don't need to do secret checks for your players in most perception checks. Just most active hazards like creatures hiding is where I'm usually do secret checks. (depending from who have the initiative, if monsters notice the players before they can roll Stealth actively vs players perception DC, if not the aren't hiding at all and no secret test is needed) For the passive things like traps they are always hided by default. So to the player need to do the test actively to search them. (but this can change if someone has some passive feat to detect things).
In a case of the players have to use secret passive perception, if a creature tries to hide from them, but don't try to use it initiative advantage against the players and choose to wait, it's fair to allow players to actively do checks in their turn to find even if they don't notice it from the beginning. Because was a choice of this creature to wait, so this increses the risky to be found.
It's shiny and expensive! Just the kind of thing a rich noble would LOVE! "Adamantine armor has a shiny, black appearance and is amazingly durable."
And is black too. Maybe good to very rich noble act as a black knight! 😂
Agreed. Armor material is pretty well moot except mithril is lighter and orichalum can have another enchant. There are more beasties than I realized that had armor damaging attacks though (half dozen or so). It is still a huge chunk of your wealth tied up in little actual value.
Even mithril is far away from being viable for an armor. It's just reduce the volume a little (1 point), there's no more armor class reduction like old version (what's good in my opinion, the armor reduction from old games give an enormous advantages with classes that has armor restricted abilities). And the orichalcum is a rare, lvl 20 stupidly expensive armor that just allow you to put one more rune and +1 for initiative. You probably don't earn such armor, in a game, and even if you earn one, you probably has a better use for the money.
The only special materials good enough is dragonhide armors that can allow druids to use much better armors than those they usually can use.
My first thought was to let people who wear adamantine armor use the 'Shield Block' reaction with their armor, but I wasn't sure if that would favor two handed warriors too much.
Oh can imagine it:- GM: You receive damage, what would you do?
- Player: I will open my arms and and try to block with my brilliant black admantium chest! 🤣
I never understand why there's no high grade stell or wood shields?
All other materials have it, even Silver and Dark Wood has a high grade. Why there's no single steel/wood high grade shields?
But using the same principle, as well as not knowing the damage is a bad option because the high risk of damage in such fragile shields makes shield blocking unfeasible. Knowing the damage also does not mean that it is a good solution to the problem! And in the end this creates a whole new series of new problems strangeness.
That's the why we complain, just "to know" still keeps the non-sturdy shields too fragile, much more hardly to repair then heal wounds, more limited in feats than other off-hand and two-hand equipments, artificially creates a need of a very specific class of expensive magical/material shields options if you want keep your blocking ability useful, and also create a strangeness where the players have a fully and exactly control of how and where their shield broken (if they even decide to break it) or how much damage those shield will take, not even the attacker can control the damage like this.
As for repairing: there is nothing that says you need Magical Crafting to repair magic items. The "Repair" activity of Crafting doesn't say so; the Magical Crafting feat doesn't say so; and the Crafting section of the Crafting & Treasure chapter doesn't say so. So there is no evidence that you need that feat to repair stuff.
But this still don't make much sense. Is like allow anyone with Craft able to repair anything no matter how complex is the magic or alchemic was imbued in it.
Is just like ask a metalworker to do repairs in a car that no longer rides.
I don't think anyone has complained about the concept of having to lug around a reserve shield to use while your main shield is broken.
I complained about this.
Change shields don't allow you to have a backpack and is not practical and is dangerous to do during combat. Takes much time and risk you to receive an opportunity attack.
But I never think the Craft as a way to save money. Is more a way to personalize what you have. (but u still have to know the formulas)
Even with sturdy shield solution still have some heavier restrictions.
This shields are expensive, and is usually accessible only after lvl 3 (if u earn enough money or your GM put one in your adventure treasure), so until there you have to face with your fragile shield.
Maybe if you make a agree with rest of your party you may buy it earlier.
"CRB pg. 509 wrote:
"CRB pg. 588 wrote:
This also remember a thing, the Sturdy Shields are great to block but and for repairs?
Even a minor Sturdy Shield is a magical abjuration shield that make the steel shield to have a great BT, but I don't remember none rule talking about repair a magical item, so there's no need to have Magical Crafting feat (page 263) to do the repairs?
This is based on the concept behind "if there's a doubt of a thing being to good to be true, probably not work that way" so a magic item is also only repairable with Magical Crafting feat?
And also will take a good time to completely repair it (but for a stronger shield this probably isn't a problem and you can easily wait to arrive in a safe place to full repair it).
I said that the blocks works like a workaround.
Because it not only compromises for such unatural order to do the things. If the Shield Block was an isolated feat without other feats of at last 2 classes and some itens depending of how it's works, there would be not a great problem with it. But when we starts to connect weak shields with this strange way to calc block with feats that increases the block needs like fighters AGGRESSIVE BLOCK [FREE-ACTION], POWERFUL SHOVE, REFLEXIVE SHIELD, SHIELD WARDEN, QUICK SHIELD BLOCK, FLINGING SHOVE, IMPROVED REFLEXIVE SHIELD, or champion SHIELD WARDEN, QUICK BLOCK, SHIELD OF RECKONING [REACTION], SHIELD OF GRACE with the fact of many of high-level special/magic shields don't also has a great BT and in join with the fact that shields repair take many time to do, makes the entire reaction increasingly more unbalanced.
You see this easily when you compare the shoves feats, that works with both two handed weapons (Brutish Shove) and shields (Agressive Shield), you will notice when you are doing the Shove with a two handed weapon you can do this many times as you want in same encounter, while when doing with the shield, you are not only limited to the fact that you can only do this while blocking (whats expected) but you also has to consider that puting shove feats based in shield block you are limited in how many times you can do this in a combat depending of how weak your shield is. Becouse if your shield brokes you can't do anymore, if you don't block to avoid the shield broken you can't even starts the shove condition.
So you spend the same feats number to do the same thing, but when doing with a shield you way more limite than with a two handed weapon. And this is only 1 example, there are so many other cases of strange unbalances and weirdness with shield block in this entire topic that shows that the block reaction is poorly maded.
You can choose many reasons, between them:
But as I said, from me I'm now clarified to know the damage don't make that much difference in face of the fact that shield block are useless even against many of even low level opponents. Ex.:
See the case of a fighter with Str 18 and a rapier that some times uses a Power Attack:
So thinking like this is easily to understand that's why was made such workaround like solution to know the damage before block. It's a try to diminish the problem of the weak shields easlily putting such ugly solution instead of try to re-calc everything.
If the Shield wasn't so weak know the damage would be even less important and some chars could study the enemys while block.
Ironically I was recently search some videos to know how resistant is a wood shield and notice that probably the Samurai's. solution was that one more closest to the reality than I was thought ..
That's the point that I'm talking about.
In the end know the damage before apply it doesn't make that much diference. If the player knows the attack roll of a monster the player can easily calc the damage range of that monster and calc if worth to block it or try other tactics. The only mainly diference, is that if the players know the damage before they can security choose when their shield will broke, if they don't know they need to analyze the risks before try, but is not like they done this blindly.
You can't reduce the damage to less than 1, see the errata:
CRB Errata wrote:
Once that the Hardness doesn't count as Resistance, it's probably count as item penalty (but once again the CRB don't explain well how hardness works).
You'r right, it's worse, it can only repair shield only when used in lvl 2 spell.
Because they haven't been blocking and healing them wasn't yet a priority and now major damage is incoming that would down them. Or a rider to an ability might be worth taking that damage to the shield and breaking it to keep the character from getting afflicted with something.
You cannot avoid any effect with block except lose HP.
That's just not true in every situation. Yes they will choose to avoid negative consequences like having an item break when they are relatively safe or have alternatives available. But in a dire situation that is far from the worst set of circumstances that can happen (especially when character death is a possibility).
But's still true for the mostly situations. In most cases that you have to choose to sacrifice a shield in order to not down, you still need that the diference between the damage is smaller than shield hardness, and even so, you will stay up with such low HP thar hardly make the diference during encounter and now without the shield AC.Usually is better to take the damage, enter in dying state, be healed by someone, even wounded, then back to fight with full AC to try avoid another damage.
I would rather lose 2 ac and still be standing than be downed, even if I can be healed after. The shield can likely be healed as well. This is ignoring of course that for the cost of 2gp and a one action cost I can be back at optimal ac even if my super nice shield is broken.
Is ironically much more more harder to heal the shield than a char!A shield HP can only be restored after 10min repairing it, no mater if using craft or magic (and the spell to do this and usually heal much less than any heal magic). Such action is not possible during encounter. But the heal a char can be done even with just 1 action.
Preventing 1 point of damage is way more useful than healing 1 point of damage all by itself.
PF2e is a RPG that is much more hard to die than any other I already played because the multiple dying levels that are almost independent from how much damage do you take (except that damage is higher than your entire HP, but in such case you probably can't prevent damage too).
With so much high heal the players can easily trade some damage prevention for heal. That's the usually case with shield block.
I think you don't understand the irony behind.
None player will choose to broke the shield if they know the damage. Why someone will do this and loose the shield AC if they know that all attacks will broke the shield? It's much easier to heal themselves than repair a broken shield, specially during an encounter.
The main problem is the completely lack of information provided by 2e in familiar rules. We even don't know their main stats to know some thing like how intelligent the Familiar is.
CRB Pg. 217 wrote:
So basically familiars are magic/alchemical created/modified creature that don't have their natural traces anymore (the main example is Leshys) that acts like a magic extension from their masters that uses the magical abilities from it.
But... Some lines after...
CRB Pg. 218 wrote:
So now the familiar abilities matter...
This create a many problems to know the real familiar capacities. We don't know how well they speak because we don't know their main Int, this also can create problems for other things that need more info than saves/ac/hp to work against familiar and so on.
For me this is other thing the needs an errata (to be honest I think we need a entire new explanation of how these familiars works not just a little errata) to at least create some base stats to know how familiar works. Until there do as you wish, if the GMs believes that the familiar has a similar intelligence of his master or if they are based on master cast atribute just do it and allow it to speak normally if they received such ability that day, if not if the GM believes that familiar has more limited animal like abilities, just don't allow it to speak properly.
Personally I like the idea of a familiar can be used for other exploration purposes (and I ignore the minion limitations during exploration for sake of a good gameplay) but seeing the poorly explanation of how they works makes me think if not better just disallow players to have familiars but I know that doing so this will break some of main capacities of many classes. So it's better to create some house rules like saying that familiars use their master stats or cast stat ability, whats worst, to calc their abilities and just allow they work like a familiar on their masters want.
The fiction checks out, it's basically people who have a strong enough force of personality to twist fate around them when they're really determined.
Thinking more about this, so make more sense do this using Wis instead. Once this attrib is the base of Will power.
If based on Charisma Modifier then your Sorcerers, Bards and Scoundrel Rogues would get a huge boost vs everyone else. They would have +4 vs some classes having +0 at first level.
Yep have this situation too. Giving points based on an attrib modifier give advantages for some classes over others. This can make an unfair benefit.
That is, the shields will never break (except in cases of extreme extremity), they will only be useless to block when opponents start to appear that cause a minimum damage equal to hardness.
I don't know, hero/inspiration/fate points are basically luck points (like halflings may have) but based on metagame, is a free pass to avoid some unluck rolls for the players that make most heroic acts.
So I'm agree thats a strange point system that forces the players to do a much specific acting that is act like a hero. So normally I change it to work as reward for players that do the best performance based in their chars personalities.
But if you want to use it as luck/fate atribute (like some games like Ragnarok Online does) the best way you can do it is like a focus magic. Recovering all 3 fate/luck points per day or per 10min refocus (for me per day make more sense).
I don't like the idea to attach it to Cha, that would tie luck to personality, is not make much sense for me (unless if the char are a weasel 😂)
And how much money you need to do this? Have 2 magical shields is lot expensive not only in bulky but in money too. And switch shields in middle of a battle takes many actions and probably make you flat-footed and can activate an enemy opportunity attack, so to switch it safely you will probably need to waste a entire turn (if you are too close from an enemy, you need to take a step away from it (1 action), release your current shield (1 free action), take the new shield from your back (1 action), rise it (1 action)) and in situations where you are flanked you probably can't avoid the attack because is impossible to avoid the flanked enemies with a single step.
Getting back on topic: Until Paizo decides that they erred a bit too much on the side of caution when assigning shield harness and durability, can we agree that it is not only RAW, but also vital for a player to know the amount of damage * before * declaring a block, in order to get the most out of their class feature / feat investment?
Now don't make much difference to know or not.
If a player don't know the damage before block his / her can still try a knowledge check or if the foe have a weapon can do the choice based on it's weapon type or just wait the adversary to do some damage to take a idea.
Usually the main difference to choose if block or not based on damage knowledge is about 1 turn. Ex .: If a GM don't allow know the damage before block, a player have 5 Hardness shield just need to wait to see enemy damage roll before deciding to block the other attacks. So If see the a foe rolling a 1d6 + 4 in a attack a player with such shield hardness will probably never choose to block those attacks because his / her know that the attack will probably damage the shield.
So the main problem in this discussion is that. The mundane shield are so fragile (hardness 3 and BT 3 and 6 for bucklers and wooden shields respectively and hardness 5 BT 10 for steel shields) that even knowing the damage before don't make much difference in almost any non trivial encounter.
That's why I tried to do a similar solution like the Perpdepog's solution in my first homebrew rules for shields but instead of increase the shield HP initialy I divided the shield damage by level, but after some discussion with Samurai and rainzax (and have noticed that I misread the shield block rule ignoring that it can only block physical damage 😝) I have noticed that do this could slow to much the encounter rolls, so I changed the my rules completely in the end.
Now I'm separating shields damage from block reaction resurrecting the Sunder attacks as a weapon trait for heavy axes/hammers, this also creating a new interesting tactical options with shields now based on the attacker choice to sunder too and no more only in the defender choice in rise a shield (no more only in block reaction) in order to keep the shields destructible but not so fragile.
In the end I got excited that I continued to try to solve other shields problems, like removing Shield Block from general feats and improved the Shield cantrip to avoid the "tower shielded mages" problem* and I also created a Monk Sunder feat to allow monks to sunder shields and I took the opportunity to allow monks to force itens using martial arts like a karate fighter brokes things 🤜🏻.
*Tower Shielded Mages problem: When the players notice that the low AC casters like mage/sorcerer can just buy a tower shield and shield block feat to avoid damages creating strangely heavy shielded mages with a big +2AC shield (+4 if they use take cover) and also blocks the weak attacks just because we don't have arcane failure anymore, some time they just block even more than martial classes because even if shield broke they can still recover some shield AC with shield cantrip.
In the real gameplay the players simply not do nothing of this. They will prefer to sold this shield if they win this as a treasure or they will simply never buy it, because there's many other things better.
So if all attack are stronger than hardness, they will not loose their shields in a attack becouse they will simply not try to block as if this reaction would never exist and forget about any other feat or shield block abilities they have (probably retraining and loose it later).
Why they will buy or keep a expensive shield that can easily broke, if they can simply change it for some thing better that doesn't have such risk?
In the real game play, the mostly sensate players will never try to block any attack that do more damage than it's hardness to avoid shield broke and they lost their shield AC. So such shields are just useless unless you are in a extreme situation where you need to broke the shield to avoid death. (but even some players still prefer to enter in dying state and wait for a heal than lose a shield).
For me that's the main problem of Shield Block, it's become more and more useless at high levels, so most feats that depend on it loose their effectiveness even before being really useful. Unless you invest heavily in a Sturdy Shield and forget all others magic shields (and make all your campaign fully of magic sturdy shields). And forget about do others magical shields using adamantine, this will become so expensive that mostly players and partys will never consider to buy them.
OK, I understand your point but I think you are abstracting too much.
Using your logic when a char receive an attack from an enemy strong (STR 18) with a rapier, at it hit but roll only 5 (1 + 4) damage and a player chose to block it with a shield with 5 Hardness and 10BT. In role play the player just like managed to block the enemy.
In practice you are giving the GM golden ability to partially rule what's happen to the game. Is like the same if the GM rolled a big damage against a player and after thinks "ok, this way I will kill this char" an decides to diminish it or attack other char instead because it doesn't like to kill that player.
I know I'm exaggerating the example, but it's to show how this rule works and when I read "forget, this rule is cool just abstract it" for a rule that if it wasn't made officially by Paizo and instead was homebrew rule made by someone in this forum, probably such rule would be ignored, criticized and many people will throwing stones against it but no one was saying "wow, this is a cool rule, we just need to abstract it".
To know the damage before or after block is just one of the problems with it. This rule has many others! Even knowing the damage before block, the block will become useless at high-levels as the damages increases unless you waste many gold pieces buying sturdy magical shields and basically obligating the player to use such shields and ignore all other options, there's several feats and even items that depend of this block to work, but that you receive at high levels when the blocks are already useless.
I cannot stop think that this rule was not just poorly designed. I like to see some GMs that's trying to solve it's problems and strangness, and discussing it not just accepting it.
For me this line separate the diference of a Class and a real Prestige subclass.
When I say that works good like a prestige class is not like as the WotC do since the D&D 3.0, where these classes are a overpowered special multiclass. But at main conpect of the word "prestige", like a special variant of a class with little modifications.
But I class like Purple Kights works more like a specialized/regionalize fighter/champiom class that gain some special caracterists but they still fighters in essence. They gain more especialized abilites and some area lore, but they still are essencialy fighters/champions. So for me they work better being an archtype than having their own class.
If you count one source of damage in one attack damage "roll" is 1 damage instance.
Maybe I can't explain well, but it's just like Silver add a trait to the damage of that weapon, you don't have a specific additional silver damage, it's still a pierce damage but with silver trait. So the both damage is calculated as one, so they have the same damage instance.
But if you poison this weapon, you add a poison damage to it in another instance (other separated damage calc).
The same to precision strikes, it's add damage to an attack, but have their own damage formula, so are another instance.
Not need to be a deity. Maybe just a Faith or Philosophie.
That the way a think a neutral champion can do too. A "defender of the balance" is more like an anti-extremist than someone who tries to archives the nirvana between the Ying and Yang kkk
That is a substantial nerf to shields, to the point where I can't imagine why your players would even waste time using them. In everyone else's game a standard-grade Adamantine Buckler can prevent 40 points of damage. In your game, it prevents 8. What a waste of 400gp.
The Adamantine Buckler (uncommon) have only HP 32 and in practice can prevent only 16, after it will be broken and become useless.This way it's still not worth buying it
But with the Samurai rules at last it can be useful to block more damage (8 Hardness) so in my opinion it's now worth to buy.
But it's hardness is now 13! But I agree theres better shields than it. It's much better to buy a Sturdy Shield, it not uncommon and provides better defense for only 1.000gp
But with core rules as said by Draco18s there's a lot more other shields that become useless if you try to block with then at high-level, like Forge Warden (lvl 10), becouse is easy to a criature balanced to face lvl 10 chars do much more damage than the shield BT, or even the Shield HP.
But will work only 1 time! The shield cantrip broken if you block with it. No matter how much damage.
While the spell is in effect, you can use the Shield Block reaction with your magic shield (see the sidebar). The shield has Hardness 5. After you use Shield Block, the spell ends and you can’t cast it again for 10 minutes.
But I agree without a way to do more damage to the shields the things can easily become unbalanced. That the why in my own rules I kept a way to destroy shields, but it isn't based in decision of how much damage the char will receive, but in the opponent weapon type. So they can decide based on this (no more based in damage they take) if they want try to block or not.
For me it's not to hard to make a True Neutral Champion concept. This is partially done by some classes like monk and druid, and maybe that's the main problem. Such classes already archive this concept, a neutral champion would just another variant from this concept.
His anathema is do or allow the extremism, no matter from it comes.
His anathema is fight o try take down any kind of organized civilization, but may fight their abuses the break the rules or create chaos.
His anathema is allow or do lawful abuses like restrict individual freedom, allow wild destruction beyond need to survive, follow abusive rules and other kinds of order like extremisms
Ps.: I know chaotic champion create some mix of liberator and druid, but as like I said before maybe because such classes entry too much in theses areas. For example, druid are neutral in all D&D based games because the animals/plants are neutral creatures that don't care of alignment, but the druid cares. As natural defender of the wild make much more sense a druid being chaotic than neutral.
For me it's depends from what nature these incorporeal creatures are.
If is a kind of air elemental creature, why it cannot fly freely?
There's a lot options to consider and to interpret for each case.
In fact even if this amulet idea made the things more simple, it's still keeps the fact that shields still an so much expensive (not even in value, but in size too) to be as consume itens even more than they are in reality (real shields don't break from rapier attacks) when you are in an army or are a knight running around everywhere with a squire and a horse it's ok. But in role play this represents that you are very limited to carry many of it around.
That's the main problem. The shields they shouldn't be that consumable!
Even the most shield occupying just 1 bulk, it's big enough to allow a character to carry more than 2. Even so, where it cannot carry it with a backpack (unless you the backpack on your chest, but this limit you mobility). The only shield I thing that classifies to been carrieable in qty is the bucker. But still complicated change such shield during a encounter.
Repair the shield on the field requires time, you frequently don't have such time when your are in a DG.
In reality a knight with a shield have a squire and a horse to carry such things. But in a role play this hard to keep when adventure in a very dungerous fantasy world where you are always in a dungeon, or a dungerous forest, or surround of undeads and so.
The main problem is they choose to be fragile with shield that is big, heavy and expensive enough like a weapon, but the weapons are unbreakable but the shields are easily broken. So when you start to turn it a magical things it becomes even worst, becouse your shield become less dispensable but still fragile.
In other topic Draco18s points the problem this create for Forge Warden magical shield. A expensive lvl 10 magical shield fragile just like any mundane shield, but that need to do a block agains the opponent to activate it's main ability:
Alternative Shield Block Rules
To avoid fighters/champ's only block ability, I changed the Shield cantrip too:
Alternative Shield Cantrip Block Rules
New Weapon Trait - Sunder
If you can make a strike against an opponent and if the opponent's shield is risen, instead yo can attack their shield. If destroyed, damage that excess the shield's hit points is applied to that shield's wielder.
Weapons with Sunder Trait:
Nem Monk Feat
Sunder Strike - Feat 2 [Monk]:
When I was testing some situations for Sunder, I notice that many cases where I can do some strange damage situations, like a rapier broking a shield! 😂 So I had the idea to change it from a action to be an additional Weapon Trait for some weapons:
This way if a char that have one of these weapons can choose to attack a shield risen instead of it's wielder.
This weapons was choice was made in the fact that these weapons are based in tools that were used to cut wood (axes) and broke and bend steel (hammers). So make sense that such weapons can easily damage shields and I removed the lighter options (those who have Finesse or Agil) to avoid have too many weapon with that trait and to represent that the stronger ones is better to do such job.
Now i'm thinking how can make a Monk Feat to include Sunder as disarmed attack.
I agree. Excuse me. I don't want to offend anyone, especially the designers who did a great job with the rules. but the Shield Block is the most strange, non-sense, out of order rule in the entire 2e!
Jared Walter 356 wrote:
We know how the rule works. We know that it create more tactical options in combat. But it still a strange maneuver where a char can block/reduce any attack no matter how precisely is it because it was made after the damage has been calc, just like it was a divination magic but it's just a block, and create even more strange consequences and even some "unbalances" in game.It's broken non-magical shields too fast if used against big damages, create a situations where the player with I shield will just receive "high" damages, because the most players chose to block only when the damage is smaller or next to their shield hardness creating a gap in the damage (this make then to choose receive the entire high damage and ignoring any low damage attacks, making this unatural for interpretations), and as the game level evolves and the damage increases, the shield block starts to become useless in face of more strongest enemies forcing the players to constantly upgrade their shields to a better Sturdy Shield version and so on ... There are so many other idiosyncrasies created by it that's is hard to list and explain all.
After all this rule working in a way that simply doesn't fell right!
To be honest, my first impression when I understand how it's work was "I will ban this thing from my games" but there are several other things in the game that depends on it, so now i'm trying to discuss an alternative to it.
And how more I read and discuss about this rule and better understand it and what situations this can create, worst it became. That's why I'm trying to create an alternative homebrew rule in other topic.
Uh! Not exactly, some feats allow to reuse-it again:
Core Rulebook wrote:
Sorry I don't intent to create a rule war. The main propose of this topic is discuss how to improve the Shield Block rule to become more plausible and more balanced between several situations where the core rule doesn't work or even make sense.
So I point the most of the cases where the original rule create abnormal situations.
New revision for my Alternative Shield Block Rules.
Alternative Shield Block Rules
To avoid fighters/champ's only block ability, I changed the Shield cantrip too:
Alternative Shield Cantrip Block Rules
New Action Sunder:
interesting but such new attack maybe will aggravate the problem of normal shields weakness. Because instead the shield receive damage only when blocking, it will only receive damage when directly attacked. The main problem is that even if not rised the shield can be attacked. But if we limit the Sunder attacks to only attack rised shields this can be a interesting way to break a shield when using my alternative shield block rules and also can make some class feats like Shield Warden, Shield Reckoning and Reactive Shield more interesting:
[b]Sunder (A) (attack): Make a strike against an opponent, but instead if the opponent shield is risen, apply the damage to their shield. Damage in excess of the shield's hit points is applied to that shield's wielder.[/i]
With Sunder being the only way to damage shields, Shield Warden and Shield of Reckoning reactions can be used to protect allies without risk to damage the shield and creates interesting new opportunities to use Reactive Shield reaction.
Your eagle doing 2d8+5 has an average damage of 10. Hardness will reduce that to 5, which both the player and the shield will take. It will actually take 2 blocked strikes from that eagle to break the shield, and then it's an easy repair to get the shield back up and running. How long are most combats? 2-5 rounds probably? That seems just about right to me.
OK, let's think better about this!
You are a playing with a Fighter, then you and your party face an 2 Giant Eagles. One of these Eagles moves (1 action) and start to attack you (other action) and roll 2d8+5 of dmg, and you have a shield with 10 BT. You really want to risk loose your shield AC trying to block it!? And remenber it have another action to attack you more even before it's turn ends.
The first of all, if your GM allow you to use block after know the DMG, you will only block if the damage is low, and you take the most os high damages. Creating the damage gap where the shield owner only take high damages creating an ungly meta-game, turng the fight much more Machine Coded and making a masoquist like char kkk
You are not risking to loose a shield in 2-5 rounds, you are risking in the first attack!
And this become worst. If you are a more multi-defense class like a Champion that can use Shield Block to protect the others, many times you have to face a shield lost or do a bad/strange interpretation or you can even loose your powers (a champion that don't protects the more weaker companion because he are afraid to loose his shield).
Let's be honest, the core Shield Block is useless if are not in a really low level adventure or if you don't have a magical reinforced shield.
Oh! I see a character carrying 4 shield in his back!? Are you selling shields?
As GM I will never allow a player to rapidly take a shield that are attached over other shields without wasting a last 3 actions! And even you are carrying just 1 additional shield, you still have to waste an action releasing the shield from your back (this probably with just one hand becouse you are holding a weapon with the other), other action to take this new shield and another one to rise it. So you loose you entire turn to change shields! (and the your foe probably will attack you again! And you can loose your shield again)
Yea, but it will broke automatically in first block (don't matter the damage), then will have to wait 10min to cast it again. Even the idea of carry 2 shield is way better, and you don't have to loose a Class Feat to do it.
This create the another problem that I mentioned. The Magical Shields Races. At level 4 all martial class players now are looking for a magical shield, all the humanoid martial class foes will have a magical shield (or will be constantly will loose their shield agaisnt players, or the GM will stop to count the NPC shield HP because is too painful), maybe even the innkeeper's daughter will already have a magical shield kkkk.
Maybe because the GM wants that the magical itens become magical!? Some thing like: You conquest a dungeon and found a magic sword! Cool! You defeated a strong foe and take his magical shield! Nice!
I don't want to change all mundane thing to magical ones just because you need change your shield to a better magical one because the old one became outdated. I don't want the chars always needing to magically upgrading their itens per level likes they are olds smartphones needing to be replaced.
'm a brazilian player, so my english is not the best and some of my references is a translated PF2e. So sorry if I made some bad english.