HolyFlamingo!'s page

I love how the first edition send-off adventure is just letting Jenny do whatever she wants. Keep living the dream, girlfriend!

Is the objection to the Munavri flavor based or mechanics based? I may be missing something offensive about them besides them being another group of Azlanti that didn't die off, but the mechanics were definitely an issue.

Mostly flavor, specifically relating to how it--like a lot of stuff in PF1 and early Starfinder--borrows from some objectively goofy yet unfortunately incredibly racist conspiracy theories (see: Hyperborea). Furthermore, having a "superior" form of human also goes against PF2's core design philosophies, both mechanically and politically.

I also just think it's a little icky that the only nice people in the Darklands are technologically advanced, magically enlightened humans whose beauty and paleness are explicitly called out. One of those things that's neutral within context of the fiction, but looks hella bad from a real-life lens, y'know?

Maybe a PF2 portrayal could pivot away from the unfortunate implications and add in some much-needed nuance, but I think it's cooler to focus on new, weird stuff rather than try to rehabilitate every inch of PF1's massive canon.

I heavily dislike the idea that being a more experienced player means having learnt all creatures' statblocks and using it to metagame.

Actually, I feel refraining from metagaming shows a truly experienced and thoughtful player.

I think I'm starting to smell a little roleplay-versus-rollplay debate sneaking into the discussion here, so I'm going to do my best to articulate my feelings without stepping on any toes. I think Pathfinder 2e's a more tactically-inclined game than not, and thus considerations about the roll-y side should take slight priority over the role-y side (which is honestly so lightly enforced by the mechanics that you could almost treat PF2 like a videogame if you wanted, which sounds gross and boring to me but some people really enjoy).

My personal stance on metagaming in combat is that expecting people to play "worse" in order for the game to work correctly is both unrealistic and unfair. I don't like the idea of putting a player into a situation where they feel like they have to do the "wrong" thing on purpose just to maintain the illusion of player-character separation; they should only ever do that if it adds to the fun, such as during a dramatic conversation or to give another player/character a chance to shine. I feel this way because I've seen a lot of players twist themselves into knots over whether or not they're "allowed" to put a bit of meta-knowledge to use, either because the GM was overly militant, or because they themselves were anxious about being a "bad" player.

I also think that a well-designed combat encounter should still be engaging even if the GM straight-up let you read creature stat blocks during the fight. There are more sources of tension and uncertainty than trying to determine whether or not something has a Reactive Strike, and while mystery and discovery are lots of fun--as are the moments when you learn something the hard way--it's not wrong to really lean into the sportier, pseudo-competitive side of PF2's combat. Plus, having the difficulty of a combat hinge on an RK roll or educated guess? Kind of lousy design, TBQH.

I agree that it's immature to try to speedrun an adventure, crack open a monster block in another tab, or spoil the ending of a whodunnit at the expense of everyone else's fun, and I think it's cool for individual tables to work out how much player-character separation is expected. Again, having your character "unknowingly" make a mistake can totally make the game better sometimes (not only is it great for drama, but some TTRPGs actually require mistakes as part of the gameplay loop), and letting newer players take charge and learn by doing is just good table manners. I'm also pretty sure basically nobody's out there memorizing monster blocks unless they're a GM.

But remember, 2e's a tactical game that expects the players to use their brains and teamwork to win. I don't think it's fair to demand certain people use less of their brains in order to play the game well. Also, the commander class is gonna attract a lot of people who think way too hard about combat tactics, and those people are probably more likely to know more than the average player "should." I don't want the class to be a bad fit for those people because half their features require they roll dice to remember whether or not werewolves are weak to silver, you know?

Actually, investigators and thaumaturges both do a pretty good job of adding extra goodies to RK checks so that even the most meta-gaming munchkin of all time can still have fun playing the class. I don't think I actually have to worry that much, lol.

I don't consider a commander shouting "they are tough but slow" to be meta knowledge.

Nothing about it requires the player to have read the monster manual. It's the character is studying the enemy to determine it's weakness.

Right, but what I'm arguing is that knowing or not knowing something about the monster as a player shouldn't be so heavily weighted into a class's power budget. Any RK-based feature should still provide some mechanical benefit for someone who already has relevant meta-knowledge, otherwise the strategic mastermind class is ironically a worse pick for a more experienced player.

Really good comment, Sanityfaerie. I kind of hate that something as basic to societal functioning as courtesy has somehow warped into a hot-button political issue.

Anyway, I think the only things really missing from the lineup after Tian Xia and Howl of the Wild are Arcadian, subterranean, and extraterrestrial ancestries. I don't think we have to worry about aliens much thanks to SF2 being backwards-compatible, and I know tons of people are pulling for an Arcadian sourcebook, so... maybe a post-remaster Darklands book would be nice? The region needs an overhaul now that so many OGL standbys are gone, so why not?

Scrolling through PF1's options, the only things sticking out to me other than the above are a handful of interesting aquatic options and the gathlain. There are also a surprising number of things I don't want ported, like munavri and kuru.

They are Int based.

So Recall Knowledge to identify the lowest save world be a big help to casters.

I personally don't think the fun or challenge of a tactical combat game should depend so much on meta-knowledge, as it punishes players for not knowing enough trivia while also making people who enjoy reading about creatures feel like cheaters. I'm not saying mystery and discovery aren't important, but there's gotta be more strategic depth than that.

Having just finished 1e's Distant Worlds, I think the reason teleportation is unreliable as a form of FTL is that the margin of error increases with the distance between the two points. Thus, the Drift makes for a much more useful transitive plane because it's neither entirely unrelated to the Universe spatially (like the elemental planes), nor is it a 1:1 mirror (like the First and Netherworlds).

So, let's say there's a place I want to visit that's two lightyears away. If I pop into the Plane of Air and fly for half a lightyear, that won't actually bring me any closer to my destination, because without specific portals magically tethering them together, points within the Plane of Air don't relate to points within the Universe. It's likely that my ability to emerge in the Universe close to where I want to be will depend on how far away from it I was when I left.

Now, if I did the same thing, but instead in the Ethereal plane, I would be closer to my destination... by exactly half a lightyear. So my ethereal jaunt didn't actually save me any time or fuel.

The Drift is special because my half-lightyear flight might actually correspond to two lightyears in the Universe (or more/less depending on its topographical complexities), so going through it actually does dramatically improve the odds that I'll wind up close to where I want to be when I exit the plane.

I think it's definitely possible for someone to reduce this teleportational accuracy problem enough that they can forego the Drift entirely--Aeon Throne spoilers, but the ancient Azlanti certainly did--but it's apparently difficult enough to do that Triune found the Drift's creation necessary (or at least incredibly convenient). As for why not just use the Astral plane instead, I imagine it's because Starfinder's authors wanted their own, bespoke hyperspace rather than be beholden to the rules of already established planes.

I'm really excited for the Commander because 1) I love nonmagical support classes, and 2) I think anything that encourages players to look at the battlefield holistically is great for the game.

My one concern for the class is that I'm worried it might amplify martials too much, while not doing enough for casters. Too often, casters are expected to "cheerlead" martials without ever getting similar boosts in return, which leads to a lot feelsbad at the table and repeated arguments within the community. I think my dream for this class is to be the kind of force multiplier for wizards that bards and clerics are for fighters.

Hm. Only 8 creature blocks in WoI and apparently none in this thing... Was hoping Heralds would make a comeback, but alas! I'll have fun regardless.

I can't wait to read more about surki. Loving how bold and customizable some of these ancestries are shaping up to be!

I sidecarted my order on purpose. That's not gonna mess with the whole "limited run" thing, is it?

Do I get a discount if I purchase this alongside the Lost Omens: Sarusan sourcebook that was also stealth announced?

One thing i really like about starfinder 1 is that you can throw any group of mixed nuts on an adventure and they'll be fine. It might be because a lot of my pf2 stuff is low level but I do not see HOW you survive those levels without a healer.

PF2 accomplishes the mixed nut approach by making healing incredibly accessible. Three out of four spell lists have recovery options, and anybody with decent wisdom can effectively patch up their friends between encounters. This allows the "burden" of healing to be shared, but I think seeing support play as a burden at all is a huge problem in the TTRPG community. (Indeed, a problem you seem to be a part of yourself, my good wolf! I mean, "the boring job?" For shame!)

But, since 3/4ths of all casters and a common skill choice doesn't include every single party, PFS adds an additional layer of protection: everyone gets a free, level-appropriate healing potion at the start of each session. I think home games could probably do the same thing, no problem.

Ranged has to stand or fall on its own.

It does--which is why things like weapon, enemy, ability, spell, and map design are all going to be important--but that still doesn't mean Get 'Em has to apply to off-guard targets. That's a case of the melee monsters yet again having their cake and eating it too. I'm certain the class with a billion skills can come up with something to do on those turns when the only target on the field is already flanked/tripped/whatever (and Get 'Em potentially providing a reflex nerf--please, Thurston, please--or damage boost makes it still useful in that situation anyway).

I do agree, however, that giving first level envoys additional toys besides Get 'Em would be nice. The leadership styles are a decent start, but one more free directive--perhaps of the player's choice--would really help. Technically, the level one class feat kind of does that, but there are a bunch of other feats that aren't directives competing for the same slot. This extra directive would soothe a lot of gripes the "but muh off-guard" broskis have with the class, without making Get 'Em so strong and universally applicable that it becomes a mandatory part of the action rotation.

Replying to Dead Phoenix: Thank God! I used scare quotes for a reason, but having a counterexample pop up right away is a huge releif.

I think the Courage!Bot assumption partially comes from certain PF2 fan communities that expect everyone who isn't a melee trooper to pour everything they've got into buttering up the frontliners, who then devote themselves to dealing as much damage as possible. It's a lousy, boring meta that arose from too many solo bosses on small, featureless maps in both APs and home games.

As is probably already apparent from my aggressive prose, I actively despise this expected state of play and refuse to allow the cooler, spacey sister game to fall prey to the same garbage. Godspeed to the people who enjoy it, but they already have a game for that.

Replying to The-Magic-Sword: I already faved your comments, but I wanted to just say that comparing suppressed to off-guard as mechanical nudges meant to encourage specific playstyles is neat. Ideally, we'll see some nice push and pull between the two, as All Ranged All the Time leads to endless games of peek-a-boo.

Reply to BigNorseWolf: SF1's not-so-secret melee supremacy is a known issue, and one that Thurston has called out in interviews. I think having Get 'Em NOT double down on 2e's already strong melee meta is therefore a boon; those DPR-obsessed hooligans can go blow their own actions while ranged characters (and casters, hopefully!) enjoy an increased variety of bespoke buffs.

What I meant by "free" is that Get 'Em requires no rolls or resource consumption beyond the single action it costs to "cast." That alone is really good; most other AC-lowering activities require a check, slot, or actively putting yourself in danger.

Now, if anyone shoot-shoot-shoots on their turn, then they suck at the game (or they're a flurry ranger and I hate them). The envoy gets tons of skills and flexible feats, so their "third action" pool is massive. This is in addition to whatever envoy-specific stuff they get, like additional directives and feats.

In regards to the Stabby example, I'm factoring in smart play, such as delaying from the players and multiple enemies from the GM (keep in mind most combats aren't against one guy, and envoys will often get a bonus to initiative thanks to Saw It Coming). The situation you are anticipating here--multiple melee-heavy characters in the same party who perpetually standing adjacent to the only valid target, with literally nothing else to do--sounds like trying to force every adventure to play like Abomination Vaults. Which sucks. I mean, sheesh, Get 'Em still works if you have an ODD number of melee allies, since flanking is a two-player activity.

Finally, bards. The problem with bards is that the "optimal" way to play is to become a Courageous Anthem bot. This is often considered to be really disastisfying as it's both a hands-off buff and something your teammates will expect to be always up. I don't like flurry rangers for similar reasons: it's not fun when the most boring way to play your character is also the "best." Hence, situationality on Get 'Em is good, as there will be times when you don't have to use it.

I do think the Envoy still needs some fleshing out--many have already pointed out that this early-game preview feels incomplete--and I'm 100% in support of Get 'Em applying to saving throws, too. I'm only arguing against making off-guard and Get 'Em stack. The PF2/SF1 melee meta doesn't need any more buffs, and the envoy should not be beholden to the optimization-obsessed killjoys who want to carry that meta into SF2.

What are you supposed to do when you are level 1 (where you'll probably spend a good 8-10 hours)? Or when you want any of the other feats at that level?

Good point! Obvious "not a designer" disclaimer, but I think having a few guaranteed directive drops via baked-in progression would really help there. Or possibly let the envoy take bonus class feats? That might be neat, if tough to balance.

Others have also suggested giving the envoy a second class feature to give them a little more oomph, but I'm wary about making this a damage-focused thing because I feel like it'd cause players to over-focus on it. Maybe poach from the 4e warlord some more and allow them to donate a single action to a teammate or something? Also incredibly dangerous balancing territory, but I played a character like that in another TTRPG and it was surprisingly fun. Having the donated action either still count for MAP or not work for strikes would help prevent abuse of the party's strongest martial, and some kind of limiting factor like flourish/2 actions/focus points could keep the envoy from spamming it. (Actually, using focus points to share actions with teammates would be dope; with a full pool, you could give someone an entire extra turn or help the whole party set off a combo).

As for early level blues, Thurston mentioned earlier that the team was considering expanding Get 'Em's circumstance penalty to include reflex saves. I think this is a great idea, as it increases the number of builds who would benefit from Get 'Em: ranged soldiers, spellcasters, and athletics specialists would all be more than happy to exploit a relfex drop, especially in a meta where cover is expected to play a larger role. So, you'd still get something out of slapping a Get 'Em on an off-guard target.

That would mean that an envoy doesn't work for a melee heavy party... I don't think a classes main feature should rely on people following the games intended meta of ranged attack. That is a very weak platform to be load bearing.

Hm. Nah. Get 'Em isn't really "load bearing," it's just the directive you get right away for free. Like all other directives, it should be situational, because a class that does the same sequence of actions every turn is boring. The fact that it doesn't stack with off-guard means that envoys have to pay attention to the field and coordinate with their team.

For instance, if Punchy and Stabby are going to move in to flank, they won't need the Get 'Em bonus once they're in position, freeing up the envoy to do something else on their next turn. But if Punchy moves before Stabby, she can still benefit from a basically free effective +1 on her turn while setting Stabby up for his +2.

Now, let's say Stabby really likes to feint. Maybe he's a swash or rogue. He's not gonna benefit much from Get 'Em... unless he's in a position where he can't set up. Which, because the battlefield is never ideal, will certainly happen, so having the option doesn't hurt. What he will like, though, is Get in There, which will allow him to move in close and/or withdraw, saving himself actions that he can then use for feinting. So an envoy with a melee-heavy party that includes Stabby specifically will be encouraged to change up their directive from turn to turn. Thus, their eyes don't glaze over as they put their character on autopilot and just zone out for the rest of the encounter.

Now, let's imagine a different scenario, where Get 'Em indeed stacks with everything, so it's a free +1 to hit basically always. That's... kinda bad? I mean, that's why people complain about bards: they're both too good and too repetitive. It doesn't matter if you're doing well if you're bored out of your mind or feel pressured to not deviate from your routine, y'know? Making Get 'Em a little less good (i.e. as presented) could potentially make the class more fun overall.

Or not. That's what playtests are for, lol.

TL;DR: A single tool not being the best option literally all of the time is good, actually.

Woof, that was a good one. Off I go to read Erin's other short fiction, I guess.

I think having one each per attribute makes sense, but I'm also wondering if some of them will be retuned to have flexible key attributes. For instance, the different leadership styles and skill-monkeyism of the envoy make the class feel like it really wants to do the rogue thing and have its key depend on subclass. We have precedent for flexible martials (fighter, monk, etc.) and casters (psychic) as well.

Alternatively, we might see more feats and features that let classes use their key attribute for more checks than normal, like the field test soldier had. Regardless, I'm a fan of greater flexibility overall, as it allows for greater build diversity without any fussing over MADness.

Ooh! Yes! Good! More creatures with support kits, please!

Counterpoint: in practice, Get em is in conflict with far more than anything we have seen so far. Circumstance penalties are like 90% of what anything besides spells apply and off guard is by far the most common condition even before you factor in flanking. Feats, features, items, you name it.

That is before you even get into the bonus damage, which has even greater conflict potential.

Hm. Not to AC specifically, I think. Circumstance BONUSES, sure, but apart from off-guard--which is trickier to get in a ranged meta--penalties to AC are rare. Status penalties (from frightened, for instance) feel more common, as do circumstance/status bonuses to party member attack rolls.

I'm not sure about all this "bonus damage doesn't stack" stuff. Could you provide a specific citation? Struggling to find it myself.

I'm surprised so many people are getting tripped up by the wording of the Guns Blazing MAP thing. The intent seemed pretty obvious to me given context: "guns blazing" implies that you are doing a whole lot of attacking. Fair to want it cleaned up, though.

I definitely agree that a flexible key attribute would be a huge help. Leadership and team play rely on more things than just a charming smile, and it'd be much more beneficial for the "skill monkey" class.

I disagree with the thought that Get 'Em! shouldn't compete with off-guard, though. It's much easier to track a debuff on one guy than it is to track a conditional buff on a bunch of guys. Also, in a game where basically anyone can hit you from anywhere, moving out of cover to park yourself right next to an enemy is a much riskier maneuver. Get 'Em! requires only one action from one person for everyone to benefit, while flanking requires an action each from two people (and only benefits those two). More importantly, it doesn't compete with magical self-buffs or many other debuffs (like demoralize).

Seamless integration of flavor and mechanics, self-explanatory enough for a beginner, and with enough variety and tactical finesse to keep a master's interest. Definitely my favorite class so far.

Gary - I'll do my best to familiarize myself with the challenge adjustments and paperwork. I'm hoping to talk to a PFS GM in real life to get some hands-on guidance.

Squark - Yep! The event organizer assigned me two scenarios, and I am to pick out two quests. I'm planning on sitting down and reading those scenarios when I get the chance.

I'm personally a fan of the idea of nonmagical focus "powers" that draw from the same pool as focus spells. It's a good way to bring back resolve-based stuff without reinventing the wheel. I think the "this is not a spell" issue could be resolved by adding a new trait, but I think Mathmuse's Gizmo pool overcomplicates things a bit. Idle amateur armchair game design noodling below.

POWER: Activities with the Power trait draw from your focus pool like focus spells do, but are nonmagical, use your Class DC instead of your Spell DC, and do not count as "casting a spell" for the purposes of determining mechanical interactions.

When you learn a new focus power, add a focus point to your pool as if you had learned a focus spell. As usual, your focus pool cannot exceed a maximum of 3 points. For example, if you character knew both a focus spell and a focus power, their focus pool would contain two points, but if they knew two focus spells and two focus powers, they would only have three focus points.

EDIT: A little unfamiliar with the remastered refocusing rules, but I think there are ways to slip in some narrative flavor through how a nonmagical class might refocus. For instance, a mechanic might spend ten minutes making minor adjustments to their drone or defragging their exocortex.

I appreciate the breakdown, Hillary. I'm bouncing back over to the Lorespire doc to double-check a couple of the rules/structural differences you mentioned. I want to get familiar with the challenge adjustments, treasure rules, and reporting format so I don't stress myself out trying to learn it all while running sessions back-to-back. Nice to know there are some digital tools to help!

I think pick-up play has a lot of charm to it, specifically for those "five barbarians go to brunch" moments. I look forward to that type of episodic silliness, which to me seems like the second-best thing after connecting with people in my local community.

Thankfully, I get to start playing on Friday, so the hands-on experience isn't far off.

I volunteered to run a few quests and scenarios at my FLGS for PaizoCon. Just finished my first read-through of Lorespire's guide to org play, and apart from the chronicle-related paperwork I think I get it. I've also gotten my ID card and signed up for my first session as a player this weekend in order to build familiarity with the format.

I've been GMing various systems for about 5 years, PF2e specifically for 2 and a half, and have experience with both in-person and online games, for friends and strangers, using official modules and homebrew. However, I've never run a society game and have never had my own table at a convention. I'm deeply nervous and not sure what to expect.

Is there anything in the Lorespire guide I should pay special attention to? Any other resources or hurdles I should be aware of? What should I focus on or purchase as I prepare? I've got two months, so not the biggest rush, thankfully.

Apparently, she landed a pretty cushy position at a larger tabletop company. Good for her! She's more than earned it.

Aaron seems like a lovely guy with a great deal of passion for whatever projects he's part of. I hope everything turns out okay for him.

Ridge wrote:

Interesting notion, seems like if Urgathoa loses, everyone does.

Which makes no sense. Why would she be a stopper in something she wants?

Think of it like the difference between steady radioactive decay and a fission bomb going off: all that nasty void energy gets released at once.

Also, you can't just make the whole universe undead; they need something to eat and replenish their numbers. Everyone being undead at once would be a hell of a party at first, but a slow, boring fall into nothingness for uncountable eons after that. The goddess of partying hard would not approve.

Re: informing GMs, the Lancer core rulebook actually has a section on battlefield design and different mission objectives that absolutely rules. Really wish more GM toolkits had stuff like that.

I don't have the same amount of knowledge about SF1 as others here (I listen to some podcasts that play it, but don't have the time to run/play anything myself), but I think I can see how, despite having tons of cool guns available, melee is still king. Everyone can do opportunity attacks, the way actions are split up makes blending attacking and mobility together a little tricky, and the biggest, sexiest DPR comes from smacking dudes really hard. Nonetheless, looking at the few flip maps and adventures I have available, I'm seeing more attention paid to cover, lines of sight, and so on, and specifically remember a lot of shenanigans in Aeon Throne 3 involving catwalks. So, the physical layout is there (sometimes), but looks to me like it's more of formality, allowing the casters and ranged characters to pepper a bit before the melee characters close and finish the job. Meanwhile, if someone does close on you, it's difficult to get away without either taking damage or devoting your whole turn to the retreat. (NOTE: This is strictly observational/theoretical knowledge, so I'll absolutely defer to those of you with more actual play experience.)

PF2 (where I have actual, hands-on experience) changes this up a bit, mostly via the three-action system and making attacks of opportunity exclusive to specific creatures and melee-heavy builds. However, while ranged combat is more approachable, melee is still heavily incentivized: tons of special maneuvers only work in melee (champion reactions, swashbuckler finishers, etc), big numbers are still mostly the property of hand-to-hand martials, and official adventure map design is usually either really bland or really cramped. In fact, killing power is so concentrated in melee that it's not uncommon to hear casters and ranged characters complain about feeling overshadowed. Yes, you absolutely can build a strong ranged martial, but gameplay tends to be a little repetitive because there are fewer fun things to do from range.

So, SF1 can already do thoughtful map design, and PF2's engine is better at flexibility/mobility. However, we're still stuck with melee's overwhelming lethality in both games, and there's an absence of spicy ranged mechanics in either (ignoring spells). So, ranged attack options will probably need a slight buff overall, although not too much of one: melee needs to maintain some advantages to make up for it being much higher risk now that everyone has a gun. Classes will also need to provide more stuff to do from a distance in order to keep things from devolving into boring, repetitive rounds of everyone deciding to shoot twice and take cover.

Pulling back for a second to look at both TTRPGs and videogames as a whole, however, the most interesting engagements tend star a mix of melee and ranged combatants. This is because they can put pressure on each other: sluggers can rush and disrupt snipers, who in turn make the slugger's approach a dangerous endeavor. The pressure between the two keeps everyone moving as they try to force the other into their preferred method of engagement. I find this superior to engagements that involve either sluggers or snipers alone, as those tend to devolve into disorganized mosh pits or extended games of peek-a-boo, respectively. Having both types on both sides keeps combatants from getting locked into either.

Thanks for the clarification, Lion!

But yeah, yikes, instinct saves sound no good. Losing agency over your character is appropriate for horror and tragedy games, but not the silly, sparkly-space-furries-with-laser-beams tactical dungeon crawler. Not to mention "X can't help but Y, it's in their blood" has some... unpleasant implications. Like, do we really wanna roleplay in a world where the evil sheep from Zootopia was right?

They already cover this with the “you probbaly/others probbaly think” sidebars.

Aside from that I don’t see, nor want, Paizo to implement an enforced genetics/instincts mindsets. Players can take care that easily enough on their own through plying that specific character, like they always have. And if they “step outside”, that’s the entire point of playing a free willed creature in a fantasy game. Have fun.

Well... yeah. That's the point: to AVOID enforced mindsets. The suggested edicts and anathema that pair with ancestries are meant to help the player get an overall understanding of an ancestry's dominant cultural mores, giving them a point of reference so they can decide whether to play within or outside those norms.

For instance, the vesk entry in Field Test 3 lists "battle honorably" and "keep private emotions in check" as popular edicts (keyword: popular). Upon reading that, a player can immediately grok that the majority of vesk are expected to exhibit stoic pride and physical prowess. This makes it super easy to imagine a vesk who isn't that, who finds macho posturing tiresome and wears their emotions on their sleeves. Said player could also start to imagine the blowback they might get from their parents and peers, how they might've gotten bullied for their apparent weakness, how they chose to stay passionate and kind despite feeling like the entire Veskarium was telling them to change... and how they might've felt relief when they moved to a fringe colony or more diverse settlement where having feelings and hating fighting was regarded as normal.

The player than writes down their own personal edicts: "unapologetically be myself" and "stand up for those who don't fit in." That's some incredible roleplay guidance right there, all because the player saw a suggested character trait and went, "nah." Which is not only allowed by the rules, but encouraged!

I do agree that having popular edicts/anathema at the ancestry level at all can easily lead to monocultural portrayals of beings whose histories and civilizations are allegedly as deep and complex as humanity's, but I don't think that unfortunate trope can be shaken off without compromising the "cantina feel." When you have tons and tons of aliens and only so much page count, simplification is inevitable. That said, I think giving players a little inspiration to help them enter the headspace of an alien creature is a nice thing to do, and I like that paying attention to what your character personally cares about is baked into character creation. Not what their senses are or what they eat or how others feel about them, but what they care about.

I like how each prophecy actually gets deep into the psyche of each god as a character, displaying their anxieties in an ironic, poetic way. When Asmodeus dies, his brother returns to not only prove him fundamentally wrong in his attitude towards mortals but reform his entire realm into a gentler, fairer place. What greater insult is there to the King of Hell than to not only undo his first great cruelty, but forgive him, and then proceed to do his job better than he ever could?

When Pharasma dies, the order of the world unravels, undeath gains ground, and the universe spirals closer to entropy: all her greatest fears come true.

And the guy who became a god on a drunken dare--the one who didn't earn his divinity but stumbled into it on accident--dies of imposter syndrome.

The prophecies may be easy enough to disprove, but I can understand why the gods don't want them spread around: they put their deepest, most personal fears on full blast.

So far, this thread has edtablished that 1) raising a shield is not a manipulate action as evidenced by it not having the manipulate tag, and 2) ChatGPT is a funny little parrot and not a knowledge database.

But I'd also like to add a third point: logically, it does not make sense for something meant to protect you from attacks to trigger additional attacks, as it would make attempting to defend yourself against things with reactive strikes counterproductive. Why would any game designer worth their salt allow that?

Even if divination is gone, it'd be easy to put in something like, "anathema: obtain knowledge of the future by magical means" or whatever for runelords and their modern imitators. You know, get specific with why they thought divination was for losers, for the sake of both mechanics and roleplay.

Speaking of, why was divination the loser school for babies? I'm sure it's written down somewhere, but I'm not super brushed-up on 1e.

Biochemically speaking, if something has to eat, it probably also has to breathe. Can't metabolize stuff without oxygen, y'know?

And like, sure, a life-form could use some kind of alternate chemistry (plants, anaerobic bacteria, and a ton of funky speculative fiction examples say hi), and we also have frickin' magic, but getting your energy from food implies you're breaking it down somehow.

Yeah, I agree that giving them the tech trait in exchange for more construct immunities would help amp up the feel, but at the same time I can understand saving those more dramatic benefits and drawbacks for SROs, holograms, and other machine-beings. I'm okay with androids being a stepping stone between organic and synthetic characters, especially since their internal machinery seems complex and pseudo-biological enough to blur the line.

I don't care if the quai dau to is technically a huge creature; they're just a sweet little guy to me.

I had a nice time checking all these people out. Thank you for boosting them.

Genuinely, this is a cute way to market a tie-in novel. Y'all seem like you're having fun being a bunch of little stinkers.

Hard agree with keftiu that this is pure, uncut campaign fuel, too. Can't wait to sit down with the Godsrain prophecies and a d20 and go nuts.

Don’t worry, we haven’t forgotten the Technomancer and Mechanic and will share our plans as soon as we can!

THE BOYS ARE BACK IN TOWN!! eventually.

What can we expect from the playtest regarding creatures and unique space/tech hazards? Will all the dangers you can face be contained within the adventures, or will there be some GM treats in the playtest rulebook itself? Can't put these shiny new classes and all their fancy gear through their paces without a proper arsenal, after all.

This is brilliant, and an excellent demonstration of how alien ancestries can be made to work with 2e's framework. I do think the ancestry as described may be on the stronger and more complex side (darkvision plus telepathy plus a swim speed plus the hydrobody makes for a lot of perks compared to the average ancestry), but if nothing else, the above demonstrates how even an ancestry as non-human as a stellifera can have their abilities broken down into components that'd fit 2e's framework.

Thank you for the feedback! I considered giving them low-light vision and making darkvision exclusive to the deepwater heritage, and tried to do some push-pull with the other stuff by balancing the high swim speed with the low land speed/innate telepathy with the inability to vocalize. Honestly, the 1e stat block was already most of the way there re: base features, it just needed some things trimmed down either for clarity or for the heritage/feat budget. But yeah, I think you could probably get even stingier with some of the goodies here and still keep the lil' squid's soul intact.

Honestly, I fully expect SF2's ancestries to be more complex and possibly a little higher-power than PF2's baseline, just because you can get way weirder with aliens than you can with typical Tolkiensian stuff. Also, it looks like a lot of lower-power ancestries will be able to play catch-up by purchasing gear.

I've heard a lot of concerns about the 2e engine's ancestry paradigm being too restrictive to accommodate truly wacky alien species, reducing them all to "humans in cosplay" rather than truly imaginative, diverse character options. I think this underestimates--or at least misunderstands--what the system is capable of. So, I'd like to try to prove that 2e can handle some weird stuff, without sacrificing balance.

Now, it is absolutely true that the aforementioned balance tends to enforce some restrictions on what an ancestry can be absent of any feats: it gets, at most, three attribute boosts and a flaw, a size, vision, movement speeds, hit points, and a couple special features to make it stand out. That's a pretty narrow set of parameters, but thankfully feats and heritages can add a lot of spice. As feats are locked to level progression, however, we can sometimes wind up with stupid stuff like truly impressive movement types and immunities not coming online until pretty deep in an adventurer's career. This can break immersion sometimes--"What do you mean my character with wings can't fly until level nine?"--so we should do our best to avoid that if we can. Any ancestry should get its Special Thing as early as possible, and feats should elevate that Thing rather than unlock it.

So, I decided to tackle this beast by going straight for the wackiest species I could find, one that is often cited as an example of what 2e can't handle and also happens to be my favorite: Stellifera.

Let's get squiddy with it.

STARTING STATS: +WIS/CHA/FREE, -CON, darkvision, speed 20 feet, swim speed 30 feet, medium size, 6HP, 120ft telepathy (cannot audibly speak).

Wait, hold on, medium size? Aren't stellifera super little guys? Don't they only have 5 feet of land movement? And where's the strength flaw? Well, what I've actually done here is give you the stats for the hydrobody, not the little cuttlefish itself. Check this out:

Disperse Hydrobody: One action. You withdraw your psychic grip on the water surrounding you. You become tiny, take a land speed penalty of -10, and are enfeebled 2. You cannot breathe without assistive equipment when not in water. (Note that enfeebled 2 accomplishes the same thing in 2e as -4 STR does in 1e. Also, we're being less mean with the speed penalty, so our little cuttlefriend gets an extra square and thus can flop away from something with reach and isn't SOL on difficult terrain.)

Reform Hydrobody: Three actions. You gather moisture from the environment to create a protective sphere of water around yourself. Your size becomes medium, and you shed all penalties related to being outside your hydrobody. (Remember, you get three actions per turn in 2e, so a swift action roughly translates to a single action, and a full action to three actions. Somebody who is actually a game designer might finesse this differently.)

For now, I'm going to ignore how differently-sized gear would work because that's a lot of mechanical nitpickery and I am Not a Designer, but I believe this more or less accomplishes what stellifera are all about right out of the box. Note, however, that a lot of the goodies our cuttlebuddies enjoy are absent. What about the free cantrips, squeezy features, and immunities? Well, we still have two sources of power budget we haven't touched: feats and heritages.

Let's start with heritages. The stellifera basically has three Cool Things that make it feel special and alien: A) innate psychic powers, B) having a hydrobody, and C) being a cuttlefish. Since all stellifera get a hydrobody by default, we can focus our heritages on A and C.

Scarlet Stellifera: When polite communication fails, you're not afraid to use your chromatophores to make a point, expressing displeasure with bold flashes of solid color. You become trained in Intimidation and gain the Intimidating Glare skill feat.

Flamboyant Stellifera: You love to stand out, and have learned to express yourself through careful manipulation of your chromatophores and hydrobody. You become trained in Performance, and gain the Impressive Performance skill feat.

Deepwater Stellifera: You're well-adapted to the chilling waters of the oceanic abyss. You gain cold resistance equal to half your level (minimum 1), and treat environmental cold effects as if they were one step less extreme.

Murky Stellifera: You're better adapted to polluted water than other members of your species. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to saving throws against diseases and poisons, and creatures within 60 feet of you cannot become concealed to you when you are both submerged in the same liquid body.

Gifted Stellifera: Your innate psychic abilities are more developed than most. You gain the Psychic Gift ancestry feat. (I'll describe the Psychic Gift feat below, but it's basically a free occult cantrip.)

So, already, we have more options for making our stellifera feel more cuttlefishy (the flamboyant heritage was inspired directly by my wife's favorite animal). However, we're still at a lower power level than 1e's default stellifera, don't have full poison immunity, and have to choose a specific heritage to get any poison resistance at all. This nerf is a bit of a bummer, but it's consistent with 2e's design paradigms. We also don't get cantrips without taking feats for it, but yeah, let's talk feats!

Lv1 - Psychic Gift: You've tapped into your ancestry's natural psionics to unlock greater power. Choose one common occult cantrip to gain as an innate, at-will spell. Special: You can select this feat multiple times to gain additional cantrips. (With this, we've locked in a way to get both of the 1e stellifera's innate spells as soon as level 1, or level 5 without the Gifted heritage. Unlike 1e, however, we have more flexibility in which cantrips we can choose, and can gain up to 6 innate cantrips by lv17, or an insane 12 cantrips by lv19 if we use the optional Ancestry Paragon rule. This, however, requires we forego all other feats and hyper-focus on being a natural psychic.)

Lv1 - Emergency Dispersal: Reaction. Trigger: you are about to take damage that would reduce your HP to 0. You sacrifice your hydrobody to protect yourself from a lethal blow. You gain resistance to the triggering damage equal to your level x2, and instantly use the Disperse Hydrobody action. You cannot use this reaction again until you have reformed your hydrobody. (The DR here is a shot in the dark; again, I am Not A Designer.)

Lv1 - Adaptive Hydrobody: You can adjust the size of your hydrobody based on your current needs and available moisture. When you reform your hydrobody, you can choose to become small instead of medium. Your new size persists until you next disperse your hydrobody.

Lv1 - Camouflage: Your chromatophores help you blend in with your surroundings. When swimming or outside your hydrobody, you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to Stealth checks to Hide.

Lv1 - Ink Cloud: You've maintained some vestigial defenses that most stellifera shed generations ago. Once per hour (or day? not a designer), as an action, you can disperse ink inside your hydrobody, causing you to become concealed until the end of your next turn. Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level, and you can’t retrain out of this feat or into this feat.

Lv5 - Flexible Hydrobody: You have fine-tuned control over your hydrobody, allowing you to shape it in more complex ways. When attempting to Squeeze Through, you may treat your hydrobody as one size smaller for the purposes of the check. (Whoop, there it is! With this feat, we now have a path to a "complete" stellifera.)

Lv5 - Stretch Hydrobody: As an action, you shunt extra water into one of your hydrobody's limbs, extending your reach by 5ft for touch spells, interact actions, and one-handed melee weapons. This extension lasts until the end of your turn, and you can take the action twice to extend another 5ft.

Lv5 - Ink Shot: Reaction, requires Ink Cloud. You've learned to weaponize your body's natural defenses. When you successfully hit a creature with an unarmed attack, you can choose to expend your use of Ink Cloud to render the creature dazzled (blinded on a critical hit). The condition persists until the creature spends an interact action to remove the ink.

Lv5 - Chromatophore Semaphore: You can attempt to communicate simple information via carefully timed patterns and flashes. Creatures that can see you may roll a Society check to interpret what you are saying (with a -2 circumstance penalty if you do not share a language), or a Perception check with a -4 circumstance penalty. The DC is usually equal to an easy check for your level, but the GM may adjust it depending on the complexity of the information you are trying to convey. Creatures that share a language with you and either have the Read Lips skill feat or have spent at least one week of downtime learning to communicate with you in this fashion automatically pass the check.

Lv9 - Psychic Empathy: As an action, choose one creature within range of your telepathy. You immediately learn that creature's disposition towards you, as well as the strongest emotion it is currently feeling. The creature may roll a Will save versus your Perception DC to negate this effect. This ability has no effect on mindless creatures.

Lv9 - Propulsive Exit: You shape your hydrobody into a jet of water just before it loses cohesion, which you can then ride to relative safety. When you disperse your hydrobody, as part of the action you may move up to your swim speed in any direction. Special: If you take both the Explosive Exit and Propulsive Exit feats, you must choose the effects of either one or the other each time you disperse your hydrobody, but not both.

Lv9 - One with the Mud: You've become especially adapted to harsh aquatic conditions. Your circumstance bonus to saving throws against poisons and diseases increases to +2, and if you roll a success, you get a critical success instead. Furthermore, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to spot creatures hidden within 60 feet of you, so long as you are both in the same liquid body. Special: Requires Murky Stellifera heritage.

Lv9 - Extended Telepathy: Your telepathy's range extends to 240ft, and up to a mile for those you have known for at least one week.

Lv13 - Master Camouflage: You are especially adept at manipulating your chromatophores. Your circumstance bonus to Hide when swimming or outside your hydrobody increases to +2, and you can attempt to Hide without cover or concealment so long as this bonus applies. Special: Requires Camouflage ancestry feat.

Lv13 - Hulking Hydrobody: You've learned how to draw extra moisture into your hydrobody for increased bulk and strength. When you reform your hydrobody, you may choose to gain the effects of the rank 2 Enlarge spell. The effects persist until you disperse and reform your hydrobody again. You may do this once per day.

Lv13 - Explosive Exit: Your hydrobody disperses with explosive force. When you disperse your hydrobody and before becoming tiny and enfeebled, as part of the action you may roll to Trip, Shove, or make an unarmed strike against all creatures within your reach. These attacks are affected by and count towards your multi-attack penalty, but the penalty does not increase until all attacks are complete. Special: If you take both the Explosive Exit and Propulsive Exit feats, you must choose the effects of either one or the other each time you disperse your hydrobody, but not both.

Lv13 - Landlubber: You've gotten used to life on land. When outside your hydrobody, you instead take a -5ft land speed penalty and are enfeebled 1. In addition, double the number of rounds you can hold your breath before suffocating (this stacks with the Breath Control general feat).

Lv17 - Telepathic Mastery: Your telepathic sense extends to any creature within line of sight, and to planetary range for those you've known for at least a week. You gain Translate as a once-per-day innate occult spell. Special: Requires Extended Telepathy.

Lv17 - Duplicate Hydrobody: As a three-action activity, you can create a second hydrobody in an empty space within 30 feet of you. This hydrobody shares your hit points and all your proficiencies, and has both the summoned, mindless, and minion traits. When created, you can choose to give the duplicate any equipment currently on your person. The duplicate immediately takes two actions upon its creation, and two more each round so long as you spend an action to sustain it (as a summoned minion). If not sustained, the duplicate immediately disperses. If you disperse your original hydrobody, you can enter the duplicate by moving into its space. When you do this, it is no longer a summoned minion, but is instead treated as your normal hydrobody.

Again, I must stress that I am Not a Designer, and thus have very little idea what I'm doing. I also went way more overboard on this than I intended to, and wound up with damn near a complete ancestry instead of a few examples. But hopefully I've proved that 2e's engine can indeed handle weird aliens. In fact, I think the variety of feats presented here help stellifera feel even more special, without locking them into a specific mode of play (I went out of my way to provide feats that would be useful for all kinds of builds).

So, what do you guys think? Was the above theorycraft any good? Satisfying? What other space freaks should we take a crack at 2e-ifying while we wait for the official playtest?

Also, I'm not sure what Paizo's policy is re: homebrew on the forums, as I don't want to get any authors in trouble if this winds up resembling an actual, published stellifera in the future (lol, as if). So, if I need to delete this or put some kind of disclaimer that I'm fine with inspiring official content either accidentally or on purpose (again, as if lol), please let me know.

At least you get to play, lol. Anyway, something that's fun to think way too hard about is how a magical civilization might evolve if we don't assume their technological development will mirror our own. And why should it? They've got frickin' magic! So, I think the way to go about this reflavoring is to consider how magic might become more accessible, and what effects that increased accessibility might have.

By default, Pathfinder already has a form of consumable magic: scrolls. You can, canonically, write a spell down to use it later, and anyone with appropriate magical training can activate it. So, if we imagine a world where scrolls can be mass-produced and people have a higher degree of magical literacy in general, we can start to think of common applications for "commercially available" magic. Thus, something like a grenade might be a simple cantrip scroll folded into a paper plane or stuffed into a disposable casing, where "pulling the pin" involves saying the command word before chucking it at the enemy.

A roto-laser, meanwhile, might be a bunch of tightly-rolled scrolls all mounted inside a tube with a crank handle. When the barrel is spun, the scrolls each brush up against an activation rune and fire. Thus, your roto-laser is ACTUALLY a simple machine that lets you cast the ignition cantrip or similar spell really, really fast.

Thanks for taking the time to read and analyze the tashtari and glitch gremlin. It's pretty cool to see someone deep diving a field test like this. :)

Thank you! Enemy design is my favorite part of Path/Starfinder, and I wanna make sure that gets at least a little community attention during SF2's development. Can't let those darn players have all the fun!

I think part of the problem with the soldier right now is that what it offers (chonky health and battlefield control) is different from what laypeople expect (disciplined guy who kills stuff). Maybe this can be solved by renaming the class to, like, bombardier or something. But that might be too restrictive, because we want the class to ALSO do melee stuff.

Also, I said this in another thread, but in order to truly stay competitive, I think the soldier's gonna need a proficiency bump. As-is, the class who's supposed to specialize in weapons has the worst accuracy of any dedicated martial, specifically because it will always be at least one point behind in its primary "hit stuff" stat, except when using full auto/area fire. However, giving the resource cost of doing so (two actions and half a clip), that's not going to be the best option all the time. It similarly falls behind on AC due to its most viable weapons all being two-handed, so it can't use shields.

Now, giving soldiers legendary proficiency in both weapons AND armor at high levels would be a bit much. However, I think it's worth considering allowing players to choose: maybe somewhere in the mid-level range, they could get the option to bump proficiency in either their choice of weapon group or armor type. This would allow the soldier to become either hyper-offensive (like a gunslinger or fighter) or hyper-defensive (like a champion or monk), and thus able to cover both "heavy" power fantasies, just not at the same time. No idea if this would be broken or not (since Primary Target allows the soldier to basically ding the same enemy twice for free), but it's important to consider that in vanilla SF2, the soldier and operative will be the only two pure martials available. So, soldiers and operatives will have to cover more ground for those tables that DON'T port over PF2 stuff (which, I imagine, will be most of them). Hm, maybe legendary weapons for operatives, and legendary armor for soldiers? IDK, just thinking out loud over here.

At the very least, I hope soldiers get legendary proficiency in their class DC at some point. If they're going to be married to a specific two-action activity, they might as well be incredible at it.

As an aside, I agree with WWHsmackdown on 2-handed, high-tech melee weapons needing some AOE goodness. This would help them stand out from the massive catalog of armaments that already exist in PF2, and make the soldier very happy. Near-guaranteed damage on at least one guy each round sounds like a nice niche.

Anyway, on to the main topic of the thread: I think the most important lesson to learn from PF2 class design is that each class needs to be both A) super frickin' hot when sticking to its ideal routine, and B) just good enough outside of that routine that players don't feel punished for mixing it up. If you look at the "bad" classes, they usually have a problem with either A or B. For instance, the oracle's ideal routine involves casting its unique, cursebound spells so it can exploit the benefits of its curse while adapting to its drawbacks, but keeping track of those buffs and debuffs is a bit of a chore, and the costs often outweigh the benefits. Meanwhile, the swashbuckler doesn't even have an off-routine to fall back on other than being a worse fighter, so it struggles to stay competitive when it's in a situation where it can't get panache.

I can't find it in the store, so I'll ask directly: will this bad boy be getting a pocket edition like previous "themed" rulebooks?

Who would win? Multiple authors working with 50 years of mechanical evolution and lore, or Luis Loza on a deadline? These dragons whip, dude. Special thanks to you and Kent Hamilton for his banger illustrations.