Bristle Billie

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Groetus wrote:

Edicts: preach of the upcoming end times, destroy that which has outlived its usefulness, put the suffering out of their misery

Anathema: artificially extend something’s existence or lifespan, spread hope

Freidrick is... well, he's honestly pretty gloomy. The end times are coming, all shall end in despair, and nothing - absolutely nothing - is cause to ever feel hopeful about anything. He is constantly muttering and mumbling about it.

He'd be a real downer if it weren't for the fact that he's generally relatively quiet. Like, yeah, if you sit and listen for a while - really listen - you'll wind up feeling pretty depressed, so his party members don't do that.

The kicker, and the reason people tend to tolerate his tendencies, is his interpretation of "usefulness". As far as he's concerned, "usefulness" is a complicated concept that pertains to the benefits you bring to the world and the people in it... and those that prey on others and bring undue harm to the folks around them start "outliving their usefulness" pretty darned quickly. Oh hey - and when you destroy them properly, you often find that a bunch of folks who had been suffering aren't miserable anymore, so that's nice... as long as they understand that it's all hopeless and all for naught and everything is crawling to an inevitable end anyway. Wouldn't want anyone to get their hopes up. That's how you get really hurt.

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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
I'm not sure what Unholy sanctification actually involves, aside from positioning yourself on the other end of a cosmic war. Unless it forces you to eat a live baby, I feel like it could be flavored as more a situation of, "Sure, I guess it positions me against the angels, but what have angels done for humans lately?" It's just too big for some mortals to really wrap their heads around as more than an abstract concept.

A quote that @The Raven Black pointed me to

Remaster Core Preview, page 3 wrote:
Sanctification: Some deities sanctify their clerics and similarly devoted followers. This gives the follower the holy or unholy trait. The holy trait indicates a powerful devotion to altruism, helping others, and battling against unholy forces like fiends and undead. The unholy trait, in turn, shows devotion to victimizing others, inflicting harm, and battling celestial powers.

It's not the same as the all-encompassing vaguely-defined concepts of "good" and "evil" that we used to have, that invited everyone to sub in their own moral intuitions and then argue about them. It's a lot more limited in scope and more clearly defined. Still, "devotion to victimizing others, inflicting harm" is pretty damning as far as coming up with a character who's appropriately "friendly".

Now that's all the preview, so it might not make it to the final? At the same time....

Anyway, if it does hold true, any deity that requires unholy sanctification of their clerics is inherently requiring that their clerics be that kind of person, and that carries its own implications.

The Raven Black wrote:
Edicts and anathema have not changed, nor have the values upheld by the deities. Lamashtu was Evil, so she is still evil.

Alignments were always pretty ill-defined, and there's no longer any indication that "evil" exists as a thing in the same way. Lamashtu does have the same edicts and anathema, and they suggest a deity who's perhaps not in the healthiest headspace... but they're not necessarily inherently evil in the way you seem to be using the word.

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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Has anyone done a thread for brainstorming "friendly" clerics of sinister gods yet, now that alignment is gone and it's becoming much more tenable? I'd love to brainstorm some affable Naderians, Lamashtans and Kuthites.

From what we can tell, It's only going to work for the ones where unholy sanctification is optional. Unholy sanctification itself seems to require being A Bad Person in some fairly direct ways.

But aside from that, I've not seen such a thread. So go for it, if you like.

Noven wrote:
Color me confused. Three Blog Posts and I don't know what the stories mean other than they are "safe."

- One of the Core 20 is going to die (and Arazni is going to ascend)

- They're slow-rolling the reveal of which one. Each of these blog posts reveals one of them that *won't* be a target, and we're getting 10 of those (thus marking half the list as safe), one per week, before the final reveal of which one dies
- This is primarily in order to drive hype (and to drive speculation, which drives hype).
- We also get nifty altverse short fiction along the way about what it might look like if one of them *did* die, in a particular way, so that's fun.
- There's a bit of a wrapper fiction around this all about our favorite skeletal bird librarian digging this stuff up.

That's basically it.

In particular, you want it to be a cool magical item that has a benefit if it's in your hands. If it doesn't have to be in hand to use, then having it also be an implement generates no additional value.

So the obvious one for starters is a shield. Should be pretty easy for mirror, might be a bit trickier for some of the others. The Thaum is already pretty action-constrained and has relatively easy access to reactions, so it's not as exciting as it *could* be, but it's still something.

If you can find a way to fit it in, making the thing a caster's targe would let you use Scroll Thaumaturgy without swapping hands. It would be cool if you could somehow make that work with scroll esoterica, but I'm pretty sure that that's pushing it too far.

CorvusMask wrote:

In this scenario, Cayden's fear isn't that something is sipping his divinity, its imposter syndrome and fear that he doesn't actually deserve his godhood because he can't remember how he earned it

Not what I meant?

Like, a significant part of the underlying basis for that incarnation of imposter syndrome was "In a real way, I'm drinking my divinity from a hip flask. It's not really mine." If this scenario was an actual fear of Cayden's, that would mean that, yeah, the contents of his hip flask were somehow a big part of what was making him a god. I'm pretty sure that that's not being stated as canon.

So... sure, he could easily have imposter syndrome, but if the prophecy is tied into that somehow, it's only at the level of "prophetic entity divines (or guesses) that Cayden has imposter syndrome. Prophetic entity makes something up that sounds cool as an entertaining headcanon for why he might have imposter syndrome." That, in turn, suggests that this stuff is mostly just fabrication. It is, at best "inspired by the deity's fears", rather than "drawn from".

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CorvusMask wrote:

Tbh, if fourth fic continues the trend that these prophecies actually represent deity's worst fears, that really chances the paradigm. (it also would explain why all three stories so far have major red flag of "wait something is wrong". First one with psychopomps doing absolutely nothing without Pharasma, second with Ihys seeming rather comfy with using Rovagug as self destruct button if his gentle hand is threatened and third with the fact that belief making you into god isn't really pathfinder setting mechanic outside of like idols in 1e)

Like... There is no reason to have story about how Rovagug's death leads to massive power vacuum because that wouldn't be what Rovagug fears. Maybe there could be surprising character reveal, but that kind of story would be more representative of collective fear of gods rather than teaching something new about Rovagug.

Same way, unless short story would reveal something surprising about Gorum's insecurities, you'd think there wouldn't be much fo story to tell. Sure we didn't know about Cayden Cailean's possible impostor syndrome (except that in retrospect it makes 100% sense both in pathfinder and starfinder, starfinder iteration's relapse into further alcoholism post Gap seems kinda like redo of his alcohol binge memory loss so it likely was trauma trigger for him), but its reveal fits perfectly into place. Gorum so far is essentially spirit of battle without further personality, he is cool, but you'd think his fear would be rather simple topic to explore.

Like you would think that story about Irori's death would be boring, but if you look it as character study of what Irori fears, then suddenly it has lot of potential to give more depth to Irori

...and if this is being drawn from the fears of each deity, then that's a suggestion that the author would be able to plug into such fears inherently.... which in turn suggests the idea that it might be a god who garners that information through their domains, and that somehow that might be the god who winds up dying. On that line... Nethys seems the most likely. He's the one who achieved godhood by mainlining True Knowledge of All The Things.


At the same time, I'm not sure I buy that. In particular, these Prophecies include some major statements about the past and present, and i don't think we can call those parts in any way reliable. Like, Cayden Cailean's doesn't make sense as a fear unless he actually *is* sipping divinity from that hip-flask. Asmodeus's story only really makes sense as a fear if he really does still have a wound from Ilhys that never heals... and so forth. If we assume that the author is a deity, and specifically the deity who's going to die, it makes more sense as a set of shadows and stories and justifications to throw in the way of the death that hunts them - explanations for why nonono, it's not me who's going to die. It's that other god over there.

...which honestly suggests Norgorber, more than anything.


As far as who's going to get featured in one of these... I suspect that we'll see one from each of the 9 pre-remaster alignments, and then one more that will probably be N. The fact that they went N/LE/CG up front... well, it at least draws the eye to that implication.

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Calliope5431 wrote:
Zon-Kuthon? He's a walking sharps container. If you poke him, you're going to get sliced. And he's not as important overall.

Zon-Kuthon is the fundamental underpinning of the oldest contiguous human civilization on the planet.

That's the fundamental thing about ZK. It's about Nidal. "We sold the soul of our country to a dark god in return for our survival and it worked." It's been around, as a functional culture where people can and do live and thrive and raise their children... and has been since Earthfall. Far more than any of these other countries, Nidal endures. People choose to live there, for reasons that aren't inherently wrong. It's a major example of how very different from those other gameworlds Golarion is. Even the inherently evil countries are fundamentally coherent, and have some depth - have something going for them other than just being evil.

I don't think it's going to be any of the evil deities. The one evil deity that I think it would most fit would be Urgathoa, and... well, they've been working on making the undead redeemable, and that's cool, and Arazni's rise will definitely help with that, but I feel like replacing Urgathoa with Arazni would be taking it a bit too far. I mean, most undead are still going to be evil, you know? Having the only undead-themed god in the pantheon be neutral would be... weird.

Of the neutrals...? If anything, I'd say Gorum. Gorum is just... bland. I mean, if Gorum dies, what do we lose, really? Of course, on the flip side, what do we gain? I mean, I don't know that it really triggers all that much story, you know? Okay, so the half-orcs lose a patron, and that's a thing. Maybe they'll find another who's more interesting?

Easl wrote:
On the second: "While you’re wearing or holding an item of light Bulk or greater that’s Plated in Treasure, any metal created by one of your impulses is plated with the metal...". So yes?

Oh, that part's clear enough. The trick is that it's an impulse attack, and thus not specifically a weapon. The "How does a weapon made out of this metal act?" question is answered for standard weapons with weapon stats that are used in weapon strikes... but impulses don't do exactly those things.

[edit] The first I have no clear-cut answer for, except to say that if they had wanted it sustainable for a longer duration or in perpetuity, without interrupt, they probably would have said that instead of 1 minute. So a 'disjoint moment' where you have to drop it and turn it back on every minute - and suffer whatever horrible effect might be waiting for you in that moment - seems right. "In the last second, I recast while I voluntarily fail the counteract check for the first casting" is just a weird, complicated way to achieve the rules equivalent of "this impulse is sustainable forever.' Which seems not to be stated the intent.

I don't think that's quite as compelling as it looks at first? The standard sustain is a single action cost per round that can be paid by the effortless impulse (Kineticist 12) feat. Reapplying it takes two full actions - a notable additional cost. Further, there's the limitation clause when you have suspended effects. Sustaining can keep the effect suspension going. Recasting pretty clearly cannot. (Technically, you recast, attempt dispel, succeed at dispel, and immediately become immune tot he effect, thus losing it.)

...and there's the flip side of the argument, where if you do succeed at the counteract check it works just fine, and it's kind of odd that "my powers are hard to dispel" would be bad for you. Of course, it also feels a bit odd, given that you can chain them in that way (if you pass the dispel checks) that it wouldn't just merge in and reinforce without need for dispel checks.

I'm not saying that you're wrong. I don't know. I'm just saying that if it's an argument from what would make sense or whatever, there are arguments on both sides.

My guess is "the rules don't say that you can, so you can't" but I don't have anything like the kind of encyclopedic knowledge of the rules I'd need to know that for sure.

...and another thing I don't have encyclopedic knowledge on (or even close) is gear. Assuming that autofailure isn't an option... is there any gear out there that could (in a fairly persistent way) make you better at counteracting your own stuff? I mean, that obviously wouldn't be its primary purpose, but....

So, Alloy Flesh and Steel (Kineticist Metal Impulse 14) is a two-action polymorph impulse that can last for up to a minute if sustained, and terminates at the end of your turn. As you get close to the end of that minute duration, there's nothing that specifically prevents you from attempting to use it a second time. It's a polymorph effect, though, and you're only allowed to have one of those at a time. If you attempt to recast, and thus instantiate the new effect while the old one is still running, you have to make a counterspell check against yourself. That all seems relatively straightforward... I think.

The question is... is there any way to voluntary-fail that counterspell check?

For context, this is particularly important because of environmental effects that cause conditions. Alloy Flesh and Steel makes you immune to a whole bunch of different kinds of effects. If you have it up when the effect hits, the effect just bounces right off to no effect. If you are under the effect when you activate the impulse, however, it merely suspends it, and once the effects of Alloy Flesh and Steel end from that use, you need to wait an hour before you can use it again. So there's potentially real value in being able to maintain the metal form in an ongoing way... and voluntarily ending the effect early and then reapplying it wouldn't actually do the job.

For further context, that particular aspect is less of a niche question than you'd think because of Plate in Treasure, and, in particular, abysium. Abysium is a particular rare precious material with the funny effect that it sickens everyone around it. If you're wearing abysium armor and carrying an abysium shield, and so forth, then you'll wind up applying that effect to, say, the enemies that happen to get too close to you... but it'll hit you even harder. Thing is that it doesn't apply to people who are straight-up immune to poison. So... this is a fun trick for those at level 17 or higher who are metal kineticists who also have the Earth or Wood resist junction, but Alloy Flesh and Steel is a lot more accessible.


Also, as a bonus question... how does Plate in Treasure interact with Metal element attack impulses? Like, I feel like you should be able to get the material bonus (or something like it) on whatever it was you were attacking with, but it doesn't make that entirely clear? Is this just a "GM ruling" moment?

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Just as long as we don't wake up in PF3 and learn it was ...all just a dream.

So... Desna, then?

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So - the safe list now holds one lawful evil, one Chaotic Good, and one True Neutral. Nicely balanced, that.

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The Raven Black wrote:
1. I consider that the Protector Tree does not protect my PC. So attacking the Kineticist is a good way to get his attention away from spamming the Tree. In a way, the Tree, under this reading of the RAW, encourages focus fire against the Kineticist who is not the most durable PC.

Kineticist has Con primary, and Wood gets easy access to an autoscaling, easily refreshed shield. If you've got the impulse junction, you're also getting temp HP for yourself every time you drop that tree (or do some other wood thing), and wood has a couple of auras that are pretty good at making nearby enemies sad. Might not be the most durable PC, but you can definitely build a Wood Kineticist who can handle some pressure.

That said... doing so does require that much more investment. Having the tree as, effectively, a taunt effect, is an interesting idea.

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Oh, and I got another one!

If cursebound is mostly opt-in... then we can have non-focus spells be cursebound, too. Like, a Flames oracle might find that *all* spells with the Fire trait were cursebound. A bones oracle might find the same thing for... well, we don't really have "Necromancy" anymore, but you get the idea.

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So, if we're going to go all pie-in-the-sky about it, here's what *I* think would be cool.

- Oracles get a lot of their power from focus spells and the curse. Possibly go so far as to strip them down to the Psychic's 2 spell slots per rank, though that might be going a bit far.

- You don't *have* to invoke the curse... but it helps. Cursebound spells aren't inherently drawn from your curse in dangerous ways. They're close, though, and when you cast them, you can draw the curse out for additional power, granting you some extra additional benefit... but advancing the curse. Advancing the curse can have upsides and downsides.

- Once you max out your current curse level it doesn't turn the magic off. Oh, no. Instead, from then on until you manage to rest and recover, you *do* have to to curse-cast, for *every* spell, and every spell you casts gets both some benefit and some (potentially painful) flaw from having torn your personal hole in reality open wider than you can comfortably manage. Like, Flames oracles might well be taking 1 point of unresistable fire damage per level, or something equivalent. Serious stuff.

- The most minor effects are always on. They just are. There's no grace period at the beginning of the day before you invoke your curse the first time. You *are* a hole in the world. Have fun with that.

Basically, have the tradeoff of "you can pull power from your Curse, but there's a price" get a lot more significant and explicit, and make it an actual choice... while *also* making it opt-in enough so that the "cursebound" tag on a spell is an advantage, rather than a disadvantage.

Lucas Yew wrote:
Quite the gravitational character, aren't they...

Yeah. They'll definitely draw you in, and they're plenty shiny from a distance... but up close you realize that a lot of that glitz is fundamentally empty, and dealing with them is so draining.

Lord Fyre wrote:
(Justice for Captain Binky!)

Who the heck was Captain Binky?

So... I see the following:

- Air skill junction is available as of level 5. That's the one that gives explicit stealth benefits for having your aura up.
- Those explicit stealth benefits for having the aura up... are kind of default, in a weird sort of way? Like, the fact that Air is good at Stealth was consciously chosen, but it's possible that they weren't thinking too hard about the fact that that would imply that the aura being up would give a stealth bonus. It's even possible that the "skill junction means that having your aura up grants extra bonus" was something that was applied after the "air skill is stealth" part, and no one really looked at the interaction. RoE, much as I love it, has... a number of such issues.
- Clear as Air isn't available until level 6. Also, it's an overflow impulse that has to be sustained.
- Clear as Air does specify that the aura elements are concealed. It's explicitly part of the description, in an obviously rules sort of way. It's clearly intended to have some sort of meaningful rules impact.

So... I think this is the point where we just have to accept that RAW is a bit of a mess. RoE has a few of those. As such, it's now time for GM rulings. GM rulings really ought to run off of "What's actually good for your actual game?" rather than "What do the rules technically say, if you squint?" That one's going to depend on your players and your situation, and a lot of things.

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Jan Caltrop wrote:
And let's be honest: aside from those who knew him personally, how many people do you think ACTUALLY cared about Archduke Franz Ferdinand? His assassination still kicked off the first global conflict though.

I kind of think he had it coming.

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Heck. From what I can recall, the author's foreword on 2nd edition straight-up said "We made this thing by going around to cons and finding all of the house rules in 1st edition that people were already using, and then incorporating them together in a coherent whole."

Also... I'm not sure I believe the spiel that 2nd edition was a flop. From what I saw, it sold a whole mess of books. The Complete X for just about every X you could think of, and the various setting books and... it sold a lot of books.

Mathmuse wrote:

Naturally, "tech" is a trait from Starfinder Field Test #1 which does name its properties "traits."

Starfinder Field Test #1, New Equipment, Relevant Weapon Traits, page 9 wrote:
Tech: Weapons with the tech trait incorporate electronics, computer systems, and power sources. Sometimes the weapons use such little energy that they can rely on integrated power sources (such as melee weapons that don’t have a capacity), while others drain batteries with attacks. Weapon runes (as found in Pathfinder) don’t function on these weapons.
Tech is a weapon trait.

I can see why you'd say that, but Glitching is a condition from Field Test 1.

Glitching is a condition that affects objects or creatures with the tech trait, and it always includes a value.

That rather strongly suggests that creatures can have the tech trait.

Themetricsystem wrote:
The idea of Shoddy Rations is way funnier than it has any right to be.

I've eaten those...

Rat-meat stew. Nothing wrong with rat-meat stew.

As for the rest of it:
- Rare metal chunks. Sneak abyssium into the backpack of someone you hate today!
- Harrow Deck (fine). You don't suffer the penalty to use. Everyone else a the table does, though.

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LandSwordBear wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if "Who was the killer, anyway?" was massive spoilers for the associated AP.
Unless there *is no* killer. Could be a bad case of the godsflu. Or perhaps a suicide. Old age? Fade away into nothingness out of sheer boredom with the whole schtick of having to endlessly being deific? Look, even superheroes get the blues...

Could still be massive spoilers.

Also, we have the image of the deity being torn apart and raining down on the world as godstuff. That's not old age.

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I wouldn't be surprised if "Who was the killer, anyway?" was massive spoilers for the associated AP.

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Yeah... I'm going to say that "can grant Holy spells to their clerics, but can't cast Holy spells themselves" is a case of "too bizarre to be true".

exequiel759 wrote:
Luis already confirmed that Arazni isn't inheriting anything from the deity that dies.

Which... suggests that it's less likely to be Iomedae?

Vali Nepjarson wrote:
While not every god would have or would need a successor, this "What If" story shows that it is important to note that some positions need to be filled. Hell needs a dictator, so if Asmodeus was going to be killed then Ihys would be the God who would take his place and he would be the God joining the Core 20.

I don't think that's true, though. Like, in this case he slotted into his role as Hell's Dictator, because he was already in that role, and could manifest his will on Golarion more effectively by playing from within that role, rather than just discarding it... but in the first one, no one replaced Pharasma, and her role was more important, if anything.

Driftbourne wrote:
WWHsmackdown wrote:
I wonder if nanocyte, biohacker, and evolutionist will see any combination of consolidations like precog got getting rolled into witchwarper

That an interesting idea, both nanocyte, biohacker, could be used to explain why someone was evolving. The odd thing about the Evolutionist, it's a class with the end goal of changing your creature type. I wonder if in SF2e if it might be better as a special type of versatile heritage that grants a free Evolutionist archetype that could be appalled to any class or ancestry. The versatile heritage part would deal with over time changing what ancestry or creature type you took feats from, and the archetype part would add the mutation points or adaptions.

I'm not sure the heritage is necessary here. PF2 already has "change your creature type as an archetype" shenanigans. It's got "become an undead" archetypes, it's got one for becoming more of an ooze...

...but those point out one of the issues with taking that path, in that it's fundamentally limited. In the PF2 chassis, you only get what you buy, and you can only buy with the coins that are in the appropriate purse. Your class is always going to be the core of your build, and thus the core of your build budget. Given that, I'd much rather see a full on class covering this stuff, so that you could afford to take it all the way out in power, than to see it constrained to an archetype. Those that wish to dabble can take the MC archetype for the class.

As a different way to look at it... your class is your career. It's your core. Your archetypes are your hobbies and side gigs. I think there's enough narrative space to have "person who mucks around with their own body" be the core of what they do.

As far as fusions... I feel like biohacker and evolutionist are fundamentally different. Evolutionist is all about modifying your own body - turning your physical form into an ever more effective and flexible tool with which to Do Things. Essentially all of the really awesome things that you're doing are things that your'e doing to yourself, and they tend to be permanent. The stuff you do to the outside world is just a matter of wielding the tools that you've already put in place. On the flip side, biohacker is all about hitting your allies and enemies with temporary effects. You generally aren't doing anything to yourself that you aren't doing to others. It feels very alchemist in some ways. I'm a little fuzzier on nanocyte, but I feel like you could almost carve that one in half, with one half being fed to each of the other two.

So... re-reading the rules text, I can start to see why people think that this should ruin stealth. I get where they're coming from. I don't think it overrides the roles-based arguments I made before but I can see the point. That's especially the case with Clear as Air's "If you activate your kinetic aura, the impulse conceals its elements". Like, presumably that has some sort of meaningful effect. If it didn't do anything, then they wouldn't include it, right? Finally, I notice the following:

"The form and appearance of this kinetic aura are unique to you"

...and further notice that some kineticists are going to care about stealth... and others aren't. So... it seems like it would make sense to have it be character-dependent, and player-chosen. Like, Yoon's aura is a bunch of birds made out of fire, constantly flying around her. If you've got an aura like that? that's going to do a fair bit of damage to your ability to be sneaky. Of course, Yoon isn't really big on "sneaky". If you decide that you are big on "sneaky", though, you can choose to have your own aura be more low-key. Perhaps your wood aura is a few of those little whirling seeds, or a flow of pollen. A fire aura might be trails of smoke, or even just heat. Water could be mist... or if you're a more bombastic type, then water could be flowers made of ice, glittering in midair for all to see. Either way, really.

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Pronate11 wrote:
My question, is Ihys powerful enough to grant clerics? Because I would love to worship the future lord of hell.

Ilhys is, for the moment, quite dead. If you live in a world where the GM has accepted the idea that he continues to exist as, in effect, an infection in Asmodeus - that their fratricidal battle still continues at some level - then... you might get a witch out of him? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get a cleric.

Honestly, at that point Oracle seems like it might be the best bet. They're all about divine dissonance and divine mysteries. Oracle of Life seems particularly appropriate, as it can literally cause wounds to open up on your body if you take it up to Major Curse and then cast a 5th+ level slot spell.

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The way I see it...

- There isn't any kind of stated difference in kind between the kinetic auras of the six elements, as far as stealth is concerned.

- Junction usefulness should not depend on having a specific impulse or feat.

- Wind Kineticists with Skill Junction gain a bonus to stealth when they have their auras up.

- By extension, "Kineticist has their aura up" shouldn't be mutually exclusive with the ability to make useful stealth checks. Preferably, it shouldn't interfere significantly with most standard ways of making stealth checks.

Honestly, I'd probably count it at about the level of "has their weapons out" here, too. Like, if you're trying to sneak into a well-guarded area by not being seen, then having a weapon out isn't that big a deal. If your'e trying to nonchalant your way in y not having anyone think that anything is amiss, then having the elements churning around you might well interfere with that.

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Calliope5431 wrote:

Basically, my point is this: fantasy settings and worlds have a very nasty tendency to change dramatically very quickly when protagonists are involved. This is fine if you're only in the setting for a few years. For instance, the events of LotR take about a year in universe. The events of Wheel of Time take around 10. Your typical comic book arc takes a few years to resolve. And that's fine. You can have an action packed five years. It happens in real life all the time (see: WW2). You kill some gods, murder some Runelords, destroy an archlich or two, and have half a dozen coups. Sink a country into the sea. Good stuff.

But then you have to tell another story. You have to, as you say, "keep things from getting stale" (though I'll point out that Eberron hasn't changed in like 20 years and people still like it). So you come up with another grand arc. Another country sinks into the sea. Another half dozen countries have coups. You kill some more ancient wizards (where are all these wizards coming from anyway? Yeesh). Topple another dark lord.

This continues for a few more cycles, and assuming you don't do a continuity reboot (Mystra is alive again! The Joker didn't actually die! Voldemort is back! Again! For the third time!) suddenly you look around and you realize... nothing matters. The PCs saved Varisia in Rise of the Runelords...shame it fell into the sea like Atlantis. The PCs put their favored candidate on the throne of Taldor in War For the Crown... shame there was another war for said crown afterwards. Your cleric retired after Curse of the Crimson Throne, a faithful servant of (your god's name here). Shame that god just kicked the bucket.

That's why continuity reboots happen. It's because after 10-20 years, the authors have killed Superman, redeemed the Joker, and sent Robin off to college. The setting is unrecognizable.

It's not an issue for pathfinder yet, but it will be eventually.

I admit the time skip thing is really a separate issue, revolving around implausible PC leveling rates (if it takes three months to go from level 1 to level 20, why aren't there more level 20 characters around? Why are there so many thousand-year-old wizards who are level 12?) but it comes back to the same issue. Fantasy worlds can suffer from being"lived in" for too long, and you can only do so many "this arc will CHANGE THE WORLD" stories before you start getting jaded about anything actually changing the world.

So I can see that as the general case, but it doesn't really seem to be as much of an issue for Pathfinder. Like, we've had "the results of this AP are canon" for just about as long as Golarion has been a thing, and the setting is still pretty recognizable, and the impact keeps being meaningful. I think the secret to that one is scope. Golarion is huge. So, for example, you can have a party of four adventurers go from level 1 to level 20 over in Osirion doing Osirion things, and the impact in Cheliax is that maybe some merchant heard some vague news of something happening over there. The adventures themselves tend to be at a somewhat smaller scale than you're suggesting (killing off a god is a Big Deal, and almost never happens) and between those two, the setting as a whole has a lot of ability to absorb campaigns without warping into "nothing matters" unrecognizability.

Now, the upcoming arc is apparently going to be a Big Deal, above and beyond the normal... but that doesn't mean that they all have to be like that. This is for the AP associated with the Epic Rules book. I expect that once this cycle is done, it'll subside again.

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The Thing From Another World wrote:
I am out of the loop is their something happing canon wise on April 16?

I believe that's when we find out which of the core 20 is going to die in the upcoming plot arc. (We already know that Arazni's going to be the replacement.)

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Jan Caltrop wrote:
...I have to let you know that I've been repeating "super laser wolf analysis" to the tune of TMNT for the last ten minutes.

super (laser wolf) analysis

(super (laser wolf)) analysis
((super laser) wolf) analysis
(super laser) (wolf analysis)
(super (laser (wolf analysis))

everything from an analysis of wolves with super lasers to an analysis of lasers that is both intensely in-depth and done in lupine style.

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benjaminapetersen wrote:
It's 2024, and I'll hop on and say I've been interested in Starfinder for a few years, but the PF1 vs Starfinder being a PF1.5 kind of concept, and then PF2e, and now PF2e Revised has kept me from ever buying a book. I'm sure it's hard to synchronize, but as an adult with kids, I'm reluctant to dive into multiple similar systems as it's hard enough to have time to learn a single system well.

Well, at least I can reassure you that it's not as bad as perhaps you're thinking.

First, you don't have to buy any books to learn the system. It's all there online and freely available on the Archives of Nethys.

Second, PF2 and PF2 remaster are really very close. With a few exceptions (alignment being the biggest), the remaster is more of a massive errata wave than it is a full change in system.

Third, SF2 is going to have the same system as PF2 remaster. Anything about mechanics that you learn for one will fit into the other.

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Bluemagetim wrote:

On revenge.

So do not be consumed but always remember and get back at those at your convenience? I don't think this is really possible, for me it still means letting those who slighted you free rent in your headspace. If she dropped her stance on never forgetting a slight this would be fine.

"never forget a slight" - Where are you getting this from? Callistra's thing is to never let a slight go unanswered. Some scruffy guy goes for your purse, you grab his hand, you twist it, driving him to the ground, you break his wrist, and you move on with your life and never think about him again. The slight (him trying to pick your pocket, and the insult of him thinking that he could do so and get away with it) has been answered (you caused him pain and then broke his wrist) and you don't need to let it bother you anymore.

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First: It was not Lawful. Taking justice into your own hands like that never is. Once you carve off the parts that come from not being Lawful, what's left is simply the act of killing someone who had done horrible things, and would wish to do them again in the future, but who could be prevented from doing them indefinitely with moderate effort. Given that it was apparently quick and clean, I personally don't count that as evil. The only moral difference between the party doing it in the woods and a judge and executioner doing it in the courtroom is the lawfulness. Of course, others might well disagree... based on any number of moral principles that they happen to hold.

Second: Alignment arguments are massive ugly things, because different people have very different ideas about what is and what is not proper behavior, and in the real world it's pretty clear that there isn't a provably objectively correct answer to that stuff. The Alignment system, though, brings in the idea that there is a provable objective good and evil to appeal to, and that it can be discerned via magic (among other things). The instinctive reaction of humanity is to immediately map their own moral intuitions to "good"... and then suddenly they have a way to argue about this stuff that feels like it's meaningful.

Third: PF2, thankfully, is in the process of carving out ... a lot of this alignment stuff. How much of it they're carving out is still unclear, but they're at least carving out a decent bit. So hopefully we can have fewer alignment debates in the future.

Suggestion: leave alignment out of it. It's a badly-formed crutch that's full of splinters. It's more damage than it's worth. If your'e going to have that argument, it should be the more human argument of how acceptable it was, why it was either acceptable or not acceptable, and what the party's going to do about it in the future. Taking away the false trappings of Objective Truth lets us fall back to the rather softer approach to discussing such things that we've developed over the past few generations.

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QuidEst wrote:

But, here's some bigger speculation.

We know that Kobolds are going to stop being a specifically draconic ancestry. They're keeping their current design (which will be further away from the Monster Core dragons than from the Bestiary dragons) and revering various powerful creatures of their respective tradition, which includes dragons. But, draconic kobolds are popular, and a lot of the kobold feats are "dragon lite". We also know that there's a new undisclosed versatile heritage in PC2.

I don't think that's true, though?

- They're no longer associated with the TSR draconic colors. Instead, they're each going to be associated with one or the traditions of magic to about the same degree. This is known. Given the way that new dragons work, though, it doesn't make them any less draconic.
- They're no longer as focused on serving dragons. They'll serve just about anything that's appropriately large and powerful and whatnot. That's more about behavior than typing, though.

Neither of those make them non-draconic, though, and I'm pretty sure that they will remain draconic in nature. It's just that "draconic in nature" now means something a bit different.


Edit to avoid double-posting:

The Raven Black wrote:

Actually no. Remaster is no more Alignment damage (replaced by Holy/Unholy) and no more Alignment for PCs and NPCs.

The setting does not change one bit. The aligned planes are still there. The deities still adhere to the same values. The soul that was going to the LE place still goes to Hell.

Alignments are still inherently a thing for the setting. It's just that they have zero everyday impact for PCs anymore, unless you sign for the Holy/Unholy war.

I had this whole long thing written out, and then lost it in a "you have backtracked too far" and I just don't have what it takes to write it out again.

Given that, I'm simply going to say that I don't believe you are correct about alignment still being a fundamental thing in the same way, and we'll have some pretty clear indicators of which one of us is right in a few months when the book drops regardless.

The Raven Black wrote:
I found the post where I recanted my heretical views of Holy and evil being compatible.

Ah! But even here they are more limited.

"The holy trait indicates a powerful devotion to altruism, helping others, and battling against unholy forces like fiends and undead. The unholy trait, in turn, shows devotion to victimizing others, inflicting harm, and battling celestial powers."

That's both a lot more constrained and more specific than the old "Good/Evil" thing. There's a lot less implied conflation that way. Like, before, you had this idea where Good Gods Must Be Good. I had people straight-up telling me that Good deities weren't allowed to have any moral features that were in any way associated with (their conception of) Evil. Here, it's much more straightforward. Are you strongly inclined to help other people for its own sake and fight those that are the opposite? Then you can be holy. Are you strongly inclined to hurt and torment people, and fight against those Holy schmucks over there? Then you can be unholy.

Basically, making things simple means that the overall "problematic" thing gets cut down a lot. Like, asserting that Vildeis is an Exemplar of Good is potentially concerning to some people. Just asserting that she's Holy, though? Like, seriously, she is out there every day, hunting down the unholy and smiting the wicked... and she does it for love of others in general, to try to make the universe a better place.

There's other stuff it allows, too. Under this system, it's entirely possible for someone to, say, be both holy and deeply racist. You can have a dwarf, for example, who legitimately sees orcs as a threat to his people and nothing more. He doesn't hate them, he doesn't have any particular desire to harm them, and he's certainly not trying to victimize anyone. It's just that the only people he really cares about are other dwarves. Inside the community, he is generous and caring to a fault (when he has the time) and he has a particular hatred of demons and undead (because he knows that they are a threat to his people, and he's seen that first-hand) but only cares about non-dwarves with respect to the effects that they have on dwarves. (Humans: often good, but not to be trusted unless you know them well. Orcs: Almost never helpful. Generally a threat.)

I make no assertion as to whether this person would count as "good" or "evil". I personally think it's "messy", as so many morality questions in real life are. I think, though, that based on the given criteria, this individual could petition the Holiness Engine, have it recognize him as "cares strongly about helping (some) others", "no real desire to harm others for its own sake", and "totally has a hate-on for demons and undead" and be happy to sign him up.

I wish it hadn't had a direct moral component. I'd rather leave the fuzzier morality stuff in the realm of "not rules-adjudicated". If I'm incorrect, and there's actually a more complete and complex concept of what morality means to the Holy/Unholy engine, then I'm wrong. I hope not, though. I'd rather not get dragged back in.

Bluemagetim wrote:

Calistria seems likes shes the goddess of paradoxical aloofness.

never forgetting or forgiving a slight means a lot of a persons heart and memory will end up dedicated to holding grudges. It is paradoxical to say dont get too consumed by these and yet always hold on to them at the same time. I would argue if you go by the motto of never forget a slight then you are already consumed.

You've gotten it snarled.

- Callistra is the one that says to never let a slight go unanswered, but not to be consumed by it. If someone slights you, you find a way to make them suffer for it, and then you move on and let it go.

- Arazni is the one that's all about never forgiving those who have hurt you. She's the one who will cling to her hatred of someone until the end of (their) days. She also seems to have a somewhat higher bar for putting someone on the hate-list. It takes more than just a slight.

It's true that trying to follow both at once would probably end badly.

The Raven Black wrote:

Being dedicated to Holy means upholding the values previously known as Good.

Same for Unholy and Evil.

I would be interested to know your sources.

Anorak wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:

Starfinder is a separate continuity, so it's not relevant here in terms of what's happening in Pathfinder. :)

Is that still the case with Starfinder 2nd Edition?

It is.

SF2 continuity follows directly off of SF1 continuity, and they had an entire thing to explain why they didn't need to match the worlds up, so that they wouldn't have to match the worlds up.

My headcanon? Starfinder is the future of Golarion, but it's the next iteration of the universe. Like, Pharasma is cultivating her successor right now. When the last survivor of this realm becomes the initial seed of the next, she'll know a lot more, and remember a lot more... and it would make a lot of sense for her to decide that she wanted to rebuild the new universe on her memories of the old. The Gap is just there to let her paper over things from the world as she remembers it to the universe as she wishes it to be.

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CorvusMask wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

It's alright :D

And to be fair, I'm not sure she is aromantic necessarily either. I kinda see her thing as being fiercely self independent, so idea of "and her wrathful heart was healed through love", while tingles my sappy romance shipping brain, does seem bit cheesy for her.

Arazni meets Vildeis, and gets fascinated by the sheer intensity. Also, there are a decent number of evil entities who Arazni hates very, very much, and she's not actually particularly averse to increasing that number if it gets her in the good books of this entrancing creature. The two of them bond over doing Terrible Terrible Things to the Whispering Tyrant. The resulting relationships is... well, it's not what most people might think of when they think "healthy", but it works for them.

Zon-Kuthon is grumpy for weeks afterwards, and refuses to tell anyone why.

lemeres wrote:

Let's go classical. A paired set of anathema

1. You cannot eat carrion meat (ie- no road kill)
2. You must always accept food offered to you by old women.

Easy enough. "Accept" is not the same as "eat", after all. Just make sure to bring along tupperware wherever you go.

azrazalea wrote:
Nah they'll just drink No HRT needed!

For the record, that there be no misunderstanding, that was what I was meaning to reference in my earlier post.

In retrospect, including the link would have been better, but, you know, edit window.

Bluemagetim wrote:
Im going to guess its not rovagug. A new battle with the rough beast where the gods actually can kill it would probably be one where more than one of those gods die to make it happen.

Well... we happen to know that multiple gods die in this particular squabble, so....

Kobold Catgirl wrote:
In the follow-up event to War of Immortals, Paizo starts dropping prophecies about which male god is going to start HRT. Everyone's so sure it's Cayden. It's actually all of them except Cayden.

Cayden: "Look, seriously? What is wrong with you people? Listen, come with me. I know an alchemist. She sells these things by the six-pack. For beer money."

Abadar: "Cayden, I know how much you spend on beer."
Cayden: "Still."

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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Nervously Self-Clarifying Tangent:

*offers headpats*

It's fine. It's really okay.

I'd offer a hug, but headpats are easier to fit over an ethernet cable.

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Kobold Catgirl wrote:

So in answer to 'why'?

Because I am complete trash for a cute sapphic romance or twenty.

"You know, the Core 20 turned into an all-lesbian pantheon so gradually, I didn't even notice."

EDIT: I also saw a great theory about Rovagug's death totally disintegrating the gods' nonaggression pact. Devil's advocate for that: Rovagug's death doesn't have to make the world "safer" if it wakes up his spawn, gets the gods squabbling with each other again, and leaves a god's foul rotting corpse at the center of the earth. There's, like, no way it's happening, but it is a cool theory.

Huh. Actually? I kind of like that one. I don't think I agree on the "no way it's happening". There's a lot of good stuff you could mine out of that one.

Okay... no. I don't think it's happening, but that's more about location than anything else. From the recent playtest, we got the idea that the rain of godstuff came from at least one deity being torn apart int eh sky. Rovagug wouldn't be in the sky.

Now, we have seen some pretty serious foreshadowing on Sarenrae... but, honestly, that coudl just be Paizo taunting us.

The Ragi wrote:
Player base is likely to shrink (a lot), which will be the main issue going forward with the system.

That's going to depend a fair bit.

- If your primary source of fellow players is your personal group of friends or your local gaming subculture? Whether there is shrinkage or not is going to depend on you all specifically.

- If your primary exposure is the local organized play group? Well, you're likely to see some shrinkage, yes, but not immediately, and it'll probably hang on for a while yet.

- If your primary exposure is via online play, there's going to be enough of a persistent community to keep you all going for a good while. All you have to do is find each other.

Just for a bit of potentially useful perspective... the PF1 boards on this site still have a fair amount of chatter on them, and the Online Campaigns Recruitment board looks like it's got a healthy contingent of PF1 as well.

So... will it mean that the SF1 community shrinks a bit as people shift over to SF2? Yes. It does. That doesn't have to mean that any given person or group of people needs to make the switch if they don't want to, though

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

Yep, right in the very first article written about her in Pathfinder Adventure Path #17: A Memory of Darkness:

Page 58 wrote:
Some priests like to add other accent clothing like a wasp's colors but eventually grow out of this habit, as the insect represents the goddess but is not inherently divine or worthy of emulation.


That one suggests that what they grow out of is trying to emulate wasps... but it doesn't necessarily stop them from liking or nurturing the creatures. Possibly a side order of "you're taking this too literally".

Of course, that's only this one quote. I'm certainly willing to believe that there are plenty more.

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