Tian Xia: Coming 2023–2024!

I'd like there for there to be a place in Pathfinder for both fantasy representations of pan-Asian real-world cultures, like these books seem intended to be, and for anime-inspired adventures and options. I don't see a reason you can't do both, time and resources permitting of course.

I can't claim to speak for all Japanese people, but as a Japanese person I never really had a problem with historically-inaccurate representations of samurai or ninja or the like, provided they came out playing and looking cool, and that seems to be a common sentiment among other Japanese people I know (again, speaking anecdotally) - it's of course never impossible for any concept to be handled poorly, but I think the threshold is higher than people tend to imply. As others have mentioned, we don't hold treatments of European culture/mythology or Christian concepts to nearly the same standards.

keftiu wrote:

I just wish the “ninjas and samurai!” crowd could tell me anything else about a continent as big as Asia. It’s kind of exasperating to reduce such a massive cultural palette to two pop culture visions from a single country, y’know?

That's why I quoted Wu Shi, Musa, Fangshi and Mudang too and also may have many others from cultures that I don't know (like mongolian culture for example). But due Tian Xi is basically based in China/Korea/Japan probably we have more focus in the pop and fantastic culture from these regions.

For other asian cultures inspiration they probably fits more in Casmaron region than Tian Xia.

I don't think the bolded text is true at all. Tian Xia has stand-ins for Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand, Tibet, and Vietnam, just to rattle off some that quickly come to mind (James Case mentioned that the TXWG's cover is based on a Vietnamese tradition of dragon boat racing, for instance). This blog post mentions a Raj down in Valashmai, further building on the South Asian inspirations Nagajor was already playing with.

That's what I mean - many folks are so clueless about Asian cultures that they think Tian Xia is Samurai Land and nothing else.

*Hugs all my north, south, east, west, southeast, central, and mix-ancestry Asian fellow writers together in my tiny arms*

*Whispers* Asians, Assemble.

YuriP wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I just wish the “ninjas and samurai!” crowd could tell me anything else about a continent as big as Asia. It’s kind of exasperating to reduce such a massive cultural palette to two pop culture visions from a single country, y’know?

That's why I quoted Wu Shi, Musa, Fangshi and Mudang too and also may have many others from cultures that I don't know (like mongolian culture for example). But due Tian Xi is basically based in China/Korea/Japan probably we have more focus in the pop and fantastic culture from these regions.

For other asian cultures inspiration they probably fits more in Casmaron region than Tian Xia.

I don't think the bolded text is true at all. Tian Xia has stand-ins for Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand, Tibet, and Vietnam, just to rattle off some that quickly come to mind (James Case mentioned that the TXWG's cover is based on a Vietnamese tradition of dragon boat racing, for instance). This blog post mentions a Raj down in Valashmai, further building on the South Asian inspirations Nagajor was already playing with.

That's what I mean - many folks are so clueless about Asian cultures that they think Tian Xia is Samurai Land and nothing else.

I don't disagree that's why I added the word "basically" because I still expect most content inspired in these countries due the demand of the already know pop culture about this region.

Mostly reference materials (books, HQs, movies, series, mangas, manhwas, animes, games) comes from these 3 countries and strongly represents these 3 countries once these 3 countries is that have the mostly economical power to export their culture overseas. This created a familiarity with such cultures within the players mind and this creates expectations about this content in these players.
So add more other cultures based material will be very interesting for all but in general the mostly player base probably expect more things about already know content like samurais and ninjas.

I don't think Paizo would've gone to the trouble of hiring a crowd this diverse if they were doing "basically just China, Korea, and Japan." Describing this setting as anything adjacent to that is doing it a disservice.

Extremely excited to explore more of Xian Tian after me and my group played through the events of Jade Regent not too long ago.

Given the Mwangi Expanse book I fully expect there to be a lot of influence from cultures that I don't know a damn thing about. It is unfortunately difficult to express interest in cultural touchstones you are unaware of.

Yes, and that's why it's great for Paizo to push for more non-KR/JP/CN inspired content, instead of reducing entire Asia to two-three sources of inspiration just because American nerds are into anime and pillows with waifus.

This is precisely the same how most games draw inspiration solely from Russian culture when it comes to Eastern Europe, because heeeey Rasputin and Baba Yaga, leaving cultures that aren't as well known globally, among others, because of Russian imperialism keeping a lid on them, out in the cold.

...This Taiwanese writer would like to balk and stare at what I just read above there, because wow, just... wow.

Obviously, with the NDA, I can't say more, but I will say I'm glad our writing team is gonna bust that player-base expectation so hard, it's going to be an absolute delight to see the books in everyone's hands next year.

But until then, we must wait in agony along with you all. Just pretend it's like a mini-NDA except you don't know what you can't talk about....

Edit: Dammit Grammerly stop deleting my verbs and making them generic.

Excited for my chance to brawl with the haunted clockworks!

Wait. It's understood that I am interested in content based on cultures I'm not familiar with, right? It occurs to me in retrospect that may have not come across correctly, especially given the related conversation.

diverse influence is always good. Looking forward to it. Surprises in bound.

In terms of the Samurai and Ninja, I wonder if a less specific class name would work? Calling the Monk (for example) 'Shaolin Monk' would have been too culturally specific, but it's still nice that it exists as something distinct from a Brawler.

We could have 'Ki Assassin' and 'Ritual Warrior' or something like that. They can exist as character classes but not be attached to particular countries or social classes.

Then again, maybe people want to able to call themselves ninjas...

I lurk on these forums all the time and never write anything, but I wanted to break that habit to say that everyone here is going to be absolutely blown away and very pleased at what’s inside these volumes.

For the record, since it was already revealed in the blog post, I’m allowed to say that I’m the one who rewrote Amanandar/Linvarre :) Glad to see Taltien is already getting a bit of love!

The map and the Tanuki art look super dope!

Do I understand correctly that both Lost Omens Tian Xia books will release in 2024, and we still know nothing about autumn Lost Omens drop?

What a surprise! I love the arts!!!!

Do I understand correctly that both Lost Omens Tian Xia books will release in 2024, and we still know nothing about autumn Lost Omens drop?

I can only speculate but given that there are two books here they might drop early 2024 instead of late 2023 because of the additional development time due to the scope.

I can only speculate but given that there are two books here they might drop early 2024 instead of late 2023 because of the additional development time due to the scope.

I just hope that lost omens books is planned for november/december, and Tian Xia LO were announced earlier for tie-ins with AP :)

Great to hear this. If it anywhere near as inspired as Mwangi expanse it will be great. And it is great to have a diverse crowd of authors - to ensure we also get to experience a more diverse game world - really awesome!

YuriP wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I just wish the “ninjas and samurai!” crowd could tell me anything else about a continent as big as Asia. It’s kind of exasperating to reduce such a massive cultural palette to two pop culture visions from a single country, y’know?

That's why I quoted Wu Shi, Musa, Fangshi and Mudang too and also may have many others from cultures that I don't know (like mongolian culture for example). But due Tian Xi is basically based in China/Korea/Japan probably we have more focus in the pop and fantastic culture from these regions.

For other asian cultures inspiration they probably fits more in Casmaron region than Tian Xia.

I don't think the bolded text is true at all. Tian Xia has stand-ins for Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand, Tibet, and Vietnam, just to rattle off some that quickly come to mind (James Case mentioned that the TXWG's cover is based on a Vietnamese tradition of dragon boat racing, for instance). This blog post mentions a Raj down in Valashmai, further building on the South Asian inspirations Nagajor was already playing with.

That's what I mean - many folks are so clueless about Asian cultures that they think Tian Xia is Samurai Land and nothing else.

I think it's the other way around, Samurai and Ninja stuff is desired independently of what anyone thinks Tian Xia is, it's just the most likely place to get it, so it's a waste if it's left out like someone mentioned up-thread, whereas the other stuff hasn't been sold to them yet as a part of their fantasy gaming, so it's hard to be hyped about it. Maybe there's a sick Vietnamese inspired wizard option or something we'll all fall in love with, but we don't know that yet because it's not something that's been introduced to the space. I'm not worried though, it's two flipping books, they have the space to do both the expected stuff, and the oft-neglected stuff, well.

"Tian Xia: Coming 2023–2024!
Thursday, March 2nd, 2022"

I think you wrote the wrong year :D

Holy s~@#... way to get me excited!! I hope they expand on some of the stuff from 1e with the Kaiju dwelling in the Valashmai Jungle! That is one place I have wanted to explore in a campaign ever since Mythic Realms in 1e!

Oooo and I hope Igroon, the Dragon Eater has some more lore added! Thats my favorite Kaiju!

Berhagen wrote:

Great to hear this. If it anywhere near as inspired as Mwangi expanse it will be great. And it is great to have a diverse crowd of authors - to ensure we also get to experience a more diverse game world - really awesome!

Yeah, I just checked and the 2011 Dragon Empires Gazetteer was 10 white American men + one token diversity British white guy writing it. What a change in a decade.

I still remember the "horrors" of one of the Jade Regent forewords XD It always amused me how sales director at time went to long story about his time working at japanese company, his various times and friendships at Chinatown(including 10 years of teaching Tai Chi apparently) and his final conclusion on how cultural understanding makes your pathfinder campaign deeper was

"These are just a few examples of how understanding food and language can greatly modify the characters you play or the stories you might tell. You may be offered strange and disconcerting foods in Minkai. How do you deal with that? The blunt, straightforward speech patterns of the West could be construed as crude and insulting. Your character might not only have trouble gathering information, she might wind up fighting for her life because of a sentence gone wrong. The better you understand a culture, the more real your character and your adventure."

Like lot of people think some of material ten years ago has just aged badly, but no, lot of the things people complained about were tone deaf back then as well x'D

Looking at the cover, it is possible that the last 3 ancestries will be Kappa, Oni and some one-eyed folk, no?

I feel since they already have showcased the Tanuki they might try and aim to take some inspiration from other cultures for the other 3

Looking at the cover, it is possible that the last 3 ancestries will be Kappa, Oni and some one-eyed folk, no?

The cover definitely makes me feel like kappa are a possibility. Oni I'm less certain of, because oni are a family of shapeshifting fiends each with a distinct humanoid form, though better representation through tiefling options seems a good bet.

Personally I kind of hope our new ancestry options are not going to be so heavily Japanese-inspired as to take up 3/6 slots, though I cannot deny tanuki are a natural fit. Mind you at least two of the one-eyed monsters on that cover already exist as a creature statblock--the kasa-obake and chouchin-obake are umbrella- and lantern-themed tsukumogami respectively. The sandals much like to be the same way.

Really curious to see what a fresh look at Jinin feels like. With Amanandar and Bachuan seemingly sorted, that’s the only other spot on the map I’m antsy about.

sidenote, I'm curious if the book introduces new conflicts and villains as well. Like has anything terrifying happened in span of 10 years or are the various nations still in status of "they want to do wars, but aren't at openly war yet"?

and some one-eyed folk, no?

That looks like a Hitotsume kozō [Translation: one-eyed priest boy]. Child-like and mischievous, hitotsume kozō are little one-eyed yōkai that wear shaved heads and robes, like tiny Buddhist monks. They have long red tongues and a single, enormous eye. They are relatively harmless, just tricking people by appearing suddenly and surprising people on dark streets.

In East Japan, it is said that every year on the 8th of December, hitotsume kozō travel the land, recording in ledgers the families who have been bad that year. They use this information to decide each family’s fortunes for the coming year. Hitotsume kozō take their reports to the god of pestilence and bad luck, who then brings appropriate misfortune on those deserving families. However, hitotsume kozō leave their ledgers with the guardian deity of travels for safekeeping until February 8th. In a mid-January ceremony, local villagers burn down and rebuild that deity’s roadside shrines in hopes that the fires will also burn the hitotsume kozō’s ledgers before they come to pick them up—thus escaping disaster that year.

EDIT: the lantern would be a Burabura yōkai [tool yōkai that play occasional pranks, but will take revenge upon those who were wasteful or threw them away thoughtlessly] and the straw sandals are Bakezōri yōkai [they run about the house at night, causing mischief and making noise].

PPS: It just occurred to me that the image might be Hyakki Yagyō or the Night Parade of One Hundred Demons. Every year the yōkai Nurarihyon [elder yōkai], will lead all of the yōkai through the streets of Japan during summer nights. Anyone who comes across the procession would perish or be spirited away by the yōkai, unless protected by exorcism scrolls handwritten by Onmyōji. It is said that only an onmyōji clan head is strong enough to pass the Hyakki Yagyō unharmed.

GM_3826 wrote:

It's a little bit weird how the cover image for the Character Guide is a group of youkai, some of which we'd have no reason to believe would be playable characters were they not on the cover.

If Sprites can be playable, I figure Yokai can, too.

Given that the cover has no Samsaran or Wayang on it, I do think we’re looking at it a little too hard. The fishy folk on the TXWG, however, are promising!

Btw, isn't that pale lady next to shaggy creature and weird tall shadow creature a samsaran though? Still no wayang unless they are super well hidden

Looks great so far! Now I'm really hopeful that we finally get playable locathah, my favorite 5e ancestry! Even though I seem to be the only one who really cares for them.

Best new of the week. I can't wait ! I hope there is something about Tian Xia's astrology.

Please new Advanced Weapon rules for this book...

It looks very Japanese with the copy of Character Guide and the reference to Kaiju and Kami. Both Japanese things.

But it looks cool

This is really exciting, my two groups have both been keen to play a Tian Xia based adventure for the last three years. Really pleased to see the adventure path will be based in Shenmen, I love a good Asian ghost story! After all the recent fuss over OGL, etc its good to know Paizo is just getting on and producing material for the whole community to enjoy.

keftiu wrote:

GM_3826 wrote:

It's a little bit weird how the cover image for the Character Guide is a group of youkai, some of which we'd have no reason to believe would be playable characters were they not on the cover.

If Sprites can be playable, I figure Yokai can, too.

Given that the cover has no Samsaran or Wayang on it, I do think we’re looking at it a little too hard. The fishy folk on the TXWG, however, are promising!

Btw, isn't that pale lady next to shaggy creature and weird tall shadow creature a samsaran though? Still no wayang unless they are super well hidden

The pale lady could be a Yuki-onna [snow woman] and the hairy creature looks like a Namahage [in it's straw leggings and raincoat]. The only thing I'm drawing a blank on is the tall black creature in the kitsune mask.

I have been waiting a long time for this. Very excited!

CorvusMask wrote:

keftiu wrote:

GM_3826 wrote:

It's a little bit weird how the cover image for the Character Guide is a group of youkai, some of which we'd have no reason to believe would be playable characters were they not on the cover.

If Sprites can be playable, I figure Yokai can, too.

Given that the cover has no Samsaran or Wayang on it, I do think we’re looking at it a little too hard. The fishy folk on the TXWG, however, are promising!

Btw, isn't that pale lady next to shaggy creature and weird tall shadow creature a samsaran though? Still no wayang unless they are super well hidden

The pale lady could be a Yuki-onna [snow woman] and the hairy creature looks like a Namahage [in it's straw leggings and raincoat]. The only thing I'm drawing a blank on is the tall black creature in the kitsune mask.

That tall one might be a more modern reference:

graystone wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

keftiu wrote:

GM_3826 wrote:

It's a little bit weird how the cover image for the Character Guide is a group of youkai, some of which we'd have no reason to believe would be playable characters were they not on the cover.

If Sprites can be playable, I figure Yokai can, too.

Given that the cover has no Samsaran or Wayang on it, I do think we’re looking at it a little too hard. The fishy folk on the TXWG, however, are promising!

Btw, isn't that pale lady next to shaggy creature and weird tall shadow creature a samsaran though? Still no wayang unless they are super well hidden

The pale lady could be a Yuki-onna [snow woman] and the hairy creature looks like a Namahage [in it's straw leggings and raincoat]. The only thing I'm drawing a blank on is the tall black creature in the kitsune mask.

That tall one might be a more modern reference:

The Kaonashi (or No-Face), from Spirited Away.

Yeah, I'd thought of him but they seemed too dissimilar: Noh mask vs Kisune mask, more solid vs see through, squat vs tall and thin. I guess someone could have used artistic license.

Awesome stuff. This was on my short list of most desired lost omens content. Getting a whole continent of stuff is very welcome.

keftiu wrote:

GM_3826 wrote:

It's a little bit weird how the cover image for the Character Guide is a group of youkai, some of which we'd have no reason to believe would be playable characters were they not on the cover.

If Sprites can be playable, I figure Yokai can, too.

Given that the cover has no Samsaran or Wayang on it, I do think we’re looking at it a little too hard. The fishy folk on the TXWG, however, are promising!

Btw, isn't that pale lady next to shaggy creature and weird tall shadow creature a samsaran though? Still no wayang unless they are super well hidden

I think that pale lady is a ghost.

I think things like "a specific order of warriors" or "a tradition of espionage and assassination" are better suited to archetypes anyway.

Just like how it's better to have things like "Lion Blade" and "Red Mantis Assassin" because you can always make more archetypes for spying and assassination if you need a different one.

So ready for this setting guide as I love Asian inspired fantasy games and settings. Tanuki are going to be my go to ancestry going forward and I hope we get some more awesome ancestries. Hengeyokai maybe? I loved those in 3rd edition's Oriental Adventures back in the day.

Also the class options are looking good. Magus is my favorite class and it getting a new hybrid study is so awesome. Can't wait to be a high-flying swordsmage that leaps around and catch enemies unawares.

I skimmed this whole thing and no one made any mention of my favorite comment. Will we be getting a Momotarou peach leshy ancestry option?!?

I skimmed this whole thing and no one made any mention of my favorite comment. Will we be getting a Momotarou peach leshy ancestry option?!?

They straight-up said it. Yes. Yes we will.