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I have to say I really like APs that let you start out at a level that's not 1. Sometimes you just have an idea for a character that makes more sense as a "somewhat experienced individual." I don't need to have played the entire backstory of a level 6 character (or w/e) to play them.

Particularly if the backstory is something that would qualify you for several levels, but isn't something that normally happens in this sort of game. Last survivor of a mercenary regiment, marooned on a deserted island, etc.


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I think generally best practices for implementing errata is to hold off implementing it in a specific game if it would dramatically impact a specific character.

Like all your pre-remaster PCs just work exactly like they used to. If you want to update your PC, since like the cleric is better now, then that's on the player to figure out.


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There don't need to be any in-game changes. If you had Drow as a key part of your ongoing narrative, you have all the rules you need to keep using them. You can certainly use "there were drow, we met them, but now there aren't any" as a prompt for some kind of story, but you don't have to. Like if Paizo said "we're never going to set another story in Galt" it's not like Galt doesn't exist anymore and you can't set a story there.

In terms of "you character can/can't do stuff" that wasn't the case previously, that's no different from any other kind of errata. In your day 1 CRB alchemists weren't proficient with medium armor, then they were because of an errata.


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keftiu wrote:
I think it's interesting that Shyka was the being Luis confirmed safe before anyone else.

I think it's because "we killed Shyka" is the absolutely cheapest cop-out since you technically can "kill Shyka" by killing a single incarnation of Shyka.

It was part of a litany of stuff to sell the idea that "we're actually serious about doing this."


Clearly we need a remastered homologue to Stone To Flesh, I would suggest "Unpetrify".


Like you only need the OGL when you are licensing copyrighted works that are made available to you under the OGL, this is for example how the PF1 CRB had some language nearly identical to language in the 3.5 PHB.

But you still might want to use the OGL for the same reason its authors started using it to begin with- to allow the non-Product Identity stuff from that book to be licensed by someone else with the OGL. Like if a third party wanted to print new Kineticist feats or new Kineticist elements, because RoE was printed with the OGL, they are able to do so via the OGL.

Now all of the Rage of Elements stuff was original to Paizo, so if they just want to update the one page to have the ORC and not the OGL they can do so easily. Then people who want to make new Kineticist feats or elements can do so with the ORC.

Because of this it will probably be possible to print 3rd party Kineticist stuff under both the OGL and the ORC, but I don't think that's really a problem. Paizo doesn't want to stop any 3rd party publisher from making more Kineticist stuff anyway.


I feel like one of the easiest ecological niches to fill in terms of monster creation is "here's a horrible creature from the outer rifts that is nasty in the specific way I want something to be nasty." Like there's probably more kinds of qlippoth out there than we could ever plausibly fit into books.

It's conceivable that even making categories of this sort of thing is a game mechanical conceit since they're all deeply horrific individuals, i.e. there are as many kinds of qlippoth as there are qlippoths.

It's just that we don't really see the need to give the entire life stories of various bandits, vampires, giants, etc. that might end up as antagonists but we *could* if we really wanted to.


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What we worry about if ZK dies is not "what will we do without Zon-Kuthon" it's "what is that Dark Tapestry thing that was incubating in the shell that was Zon-Kuthon going to do now that it has hatched?"


I don't think the OGL and the ORC need to be completely divorced. Like the Summoner was printed in an OGL book, as were the Eidolon options for the summoner. But a player's guide for an ORC AP wants to mention that Summoners are a good fit for the campaign and a particular set of Eidolons are especially good choices they can.

The thing is the provenance of the IP from the OGL book. If it's something that Paizo created, even though it's in an OGL book, they can continue to use it since they don't need to license their own intellectual property.


Berselius wrote:
I'm wondering, will the other Planar Dragons (aka Paradise Dragon, Apocalypse Dragon, Bliss Dragon, Crypt Dragon, Edict Dragon, etc etc) still be a part of the new Core?

I feel like the bright line standard is anything that requires the OGL to exist on Golarion (Owlbears, Drow, etc.) is gone in the sense of "We're never going to mention it in an official publication" sense. But everything else pre-remaster is fair game for them to reference and use. Like I doubt the Monster Core has all the ancestries added in the Mwangi and Impossible Lands books, but the Anadi and the Kashrishi are still canonical.

It's much like how the Thaumaturge and Inventor aren't in Player Core 1 or 2, because they didn't really need updating to be fully usable with the remaster.


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shepsquared wrote:
A god is a person in Pathfinder - if they get killed they die pretty much all at once. The only exception I can imagine in current lore is Norgorber and that'd probably be a reveal that he was 4 people in a trenchcoat the whole time.

The other exception is Shyka. It's conceivable you could spend the rest of your natural life killing Shyka every round, and it's conceivable you'd run out of hours before Shyka runs out of incarnations.


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BookBird wrote:
Not exactly, it's just the old dragons haven't been updated yet. Formerly Green Dragons are now Horned Dragons who happened to have green scales.

Specific NPCs don't need to fall into any specific bestiary category though. You don't have to put "[adjective] dragon" in Mengkare or Choral's statblock anywhere. Mengkare's existing statblock has three "as gold dragon" entries referring to the original bestiary, but if you were going to reprint him or do Choral you could just refer to something in the Monster Core instead (or just say explicitly how Draconic Frenzy, etc. works for this individual.)

Like the purpose of the Unique Tag is that you can do just whatever.


Is there a level 4 bear to fill the gap left by the absence of the stirgine bear? Like we have Black (2), Grizzly (3), Polar (5), and Cave (6) but is there a level 4 bear?


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Kelseus wrote:
Howl of the Wild product description states that it contains "A menagerie of Golarion’s animals and beasts for GMs to unleash on players..."

Yeah, Paizo's plan is clearly to release mixed GM and Player-Use books like Rage of Elements, Howl of the Wild, Book of the Dead, and Dark Archive than straight up Bestiaries. This makes sense since everybody wants to own the book with a new class, most people are going to want to own the book with the new ancestries, but mostly the GM buys the bestiaries.


I wonder how much work it would be to retrofit a book like Dark Archive if you're doing a second printing and want to publish it under the ORC not the OGL. Like second printings regularly incorporate errata, and if all they really need to do is change the legal boilerplate, remove all mentions of alignment, and replace "attack of opportunity" with "reactive strike" that's probably doable.


I think the pivot point for "are they going to remaster other stuff" Is that remastering things allows 3rd party companies to use Pathfinder content under the ORC license. So if someone wants to make more witch patrons and release that as 3PP they can do so.

But if someone wanted to make more Summoner feats, that would be tricky since Secrets of Magic was an OGL product. Paizo can keep reprinting Secrets of Magic as long as they want since it's under safe harbor, but I'm honestly not sure how much they can refer to it and remain entirely free of the OGL. Paizo's interest in "printing more stuff for old classes" in new books has been minimal.

But the most important things to have remastered are "the rules". Since what Paizo hopes people do with their licensed content is "publish 3pp stuff that fills various niches."


Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Oh, that's such a fun idea! Might need a clarification for species like the ghoran, automatons and wyrwoods, though, all of whom are, I think, explicitly unable to procreate.

I think the answer is simply if the ancestry is unable to procreate, the child is just not that ancestry. Like if an gnome and an automaton has a child, it's automatically a gnome (and this is like the one sense in which taking the Adopted Ancestry for an automaton automatically makes sense.)


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Yeah, I'm with Yivali. Magic predates Nethys, he just understood it better than anybody before him. It's unlikely though, that he could *break* Magic in such a way that it would never recover. Could he break it temporarily? Sure, that already happened at least once (after Earthfall.)

Someone will successfully combine mind and body, and heart and soul even if it's not Nethys. After all, if we can describe a thing can magic not make it so?


Unicore wrote:
I am starting to wonder if the gods we are getting prophecies for are gods that are not going to be critically involved in the gods war? Or if they are going to be central to it?

I feel like if you're writing "The War of Immortals" then you're going to want to rope as many deities in as you can, since you don't know what the players in any game are going to be. So if a player is a Cleric of Falayna or a Champion of Kazutal it would be nice if they had something specific to their characters going on. Sure, that's most likely something the GM builds in but if the writers do that job for some deities already, that's great.


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It feels like there should be a ritual that lets any two people who want to create a child do so. There are probably deities that think "perform that ritual" is part of their job.

Like this is a magic world, so let's not assume that like Dwarves and Iruxi have the same kind of reproductive system as humans do, but that where there's a will there is a way.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
It doesn't look like they applied compatibility errata though. Champions still reference alignment instead of holy and unholy.

It feels like a good call to just do the remastered champion when the Player Core 2 book comes out, instead of having to update it two times.


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Like the Gap is a literal continuity break. Even if you hold "Pathfinder happened before Starfinder" the Gap would allow "God X died a while back, but God Y is still alive" to both change.


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So the metatextual reason that the age is "lost omens" where prophecy doesn't work is that Pathfinder is a roleplaying game where the players (and the dice) decide what happens, rather than "prophecy." Like if the Tyrant is prophesied to rule for 60 years of misery and darkness but the PCs just decide to murk that guy because he's a big ol' jerk, then prophecy by its very nature has to be unreliable (because the PCs could also just as easily decide "not my problem, I don't live there.)


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I'm thinking about Luis's prompt of "what kind of creature can kill a god" in the sense that traditionally Pathfinder deities cannot be killed because they do not have rules, they operate on the level of stories rather than mechanics. Lamashtu can kill Curchanus not because of her attack bonus and his AC but because that's what happens in the story.

So something can kill a deity because it is the sort of thing that consumes stories. It's like something infused with what Fallen London calls "irrigo" (basically radiation that makes you forget, potentially anything) or some kind of black hole creature that consumes information and renders it irretrievably lost (it's not likely that actual black holes do this, but some scientists have thought they do.)

Possibly some creature born in the Akashic Record that was nurtured in the Dark Tapestry.


I would feel so much better if the next Deity marked safe is Shelyn.

Like Pharasma and Shelyn were the two I really didn't want to lose.


keftiu wrote:
Yes, this week's prophecy, not the actual dead deity.

Yeah, they're not going to reveal the actual dead deity until at least we've marked half of the core-20 safe. I don't think it's feasible to completely keep it under wraps until the books are in people's hands, but they might try!


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Captain Morgan wrote:
The biggest problem with animal companions, IMO, is expectations. They are not player characters, or even cornerstone class features. They are feats.

Yeah, if you want to see how much of a class budget you would need to devote to "a combat buddy who is comparable to another player character" you should look at the Summoner.

The Ranger and Druid without their animal companions are much more effective (even having spent feats on their animal companion) than a Summoner is without their Eidolon. PF2 is deeply invested in niche protection, so if you really want a character to have a combat bear who is formidable, you might want to play a summoner with a Beast Eidolon.


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I'm going to say that if there's one thing I am confident PF3 will not do it's "become more like 5e."

They may well drop Vancian spellcasting entirely, but they're surely not going to do what the competition does.


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Also there are presumably other gods who take specific interest in other planets, and we just don't talk about them very much because they're not interested in Golarion.

Like there are followers of Hylax out there in the universe somewhere.


The Raven Black wrote:
Cayden's What If made me somewhat interested in him. Maybe it could happen with Irori too.

I absolutely would buy some story of the form "Irori figures out that he's not as perfect as he thought he was, then subsequently dies". The problem is that it's hard to imagine any sort of big story you could spin out of Irori being out of the picture."

With Gozreh or Nethys or something you could have something of the form "the force they were identified has spiraled out of control."


Unicore wrote:
I think Zon Kuthon will be involved, but won’t be the deity who dies. He might be it he one to do the killing though. I am really starting to believe Zon Kuthon is going to kill Sarenrae and Shelyn is going to have to forgive him as he begins a path to redemption.

I just think that the Zon-Kuthon story, whatever it is, is going to have to involve whatever horrible Dark Tapestry parasite that's inhabiting the vessel has to be excised somehow. Like you can't make peace with that guy when that's still going on.

So it pretty much either has to be "it hatches" or "it's excised."


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I'm currently thinking that the thing that wants to eat Godflesh is the Dark Tapestry thing that's been incubating in Dou-Bral's body (consuming it from the inside, so it has a taste for godflesh, though Dou-Bral's wasn't particularly fresh), and the "God being ripped in half" is when whatever that thing is finally hatches, destroying Zon-Kuthon in the process.

I mean, Liane Mercel is writing the book and she's your go to source for anything about Nidal or Zon-Kuthon.

Note that the blog mentions that the light of Sarenrae is reaching the land of the Midnight Lord, not that the Midnight Lord is still in residence. It could be getting sunny there since the divine force that was making it gloomy is absent! This is also where you'd drop the thing about the the Prismatic Ray since Shelyn is going to be understandably upset about this!

There's also going to be an uptick in interest in the Goddess of Survivors if Nidal loses their divine patron and is overrun by monsters from the Dark Tapestry.


So here's my current guess about the story in light of the Erastil one:

Zon-Kuthon is going to die, when the thing from the Dark Tapestry that has been incubating in Dou-Bral's body finally hatches (a la Alien.) The thing that emerges is already native to the darkness, is affiliated with the Dark Tapestry, and has a taste for Godflesh because it's been feasting on it for its entire existence. This harkens a whole "Gods of Golarion against the Dark Tapestry" kind of plot.

Lending credence to this sort of thing is the fact that the tie-in book is being written by Liane Mercel who's the author of almost all of the Nidal stuff. If you were going to tap someone to write a story about Zon-Kuthon's grisly end, it would be her.


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The fallout from the story of the death of Erastil would essentially be "the death of the community spirit" which would be a very difficult story to do well, and probably not ideal for a heroic fantasy game. So I get why he's safe.


Well, the Erastil story seems to have a grain of truth in it in that the conflict takes the shape of "something is hunting the gods" and not "the gods have drawn up battle lines to fight each other."

The Erastil one was the first one that could be generically applied to any deity, it's just something extremely dangerous that's lurking where it can't be observed and wants to eat godflesh. Since we know Erastil's not running afoul of it, it could be any other Deity who is finding something dangerous hidden in the dark.


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Powers128 wrote:
I wonder if the large ancestries will have inherent reach lol

I mean, it doesn't really make sense for centaurs since the torso is that of a medium sized human, so if anything you'd have a harder time reaching behind you.

Like Telero would really have to stretch to reach those panniers on his back.


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I would assume Dahak's edicts are going to change in the forthcoming gods book since "metallic dragons" no longer exist as a category, but in the interim you can describe it as being about art.

Like he really hates it when you cast statues of dragons in metal.


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I mean, I fully expect in some people's War of the Immortals campaigns there are going to be extra deities dying. It would be disappointing if it's not structured in a way that tables can't finally get their revenge against [whoever] then that would be disappointing.

Like I would not be surprised if Ihys is the Lord of Hell by the end of our campaign. That honestly feels like a way to resolve our "Hell's Vengeance Failed, Westcrown is an independent Semi-Enclave" puzzle.


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I don't think that Arazni really needs to change to be part of the core 20. She's the goddess of Survivors, and what is going to draw more people to her flock than "a terrible world-scarring catastrophe that is tremendously stressful and dangerous."

Like everybody who goes through some stuff but is still here is a potential follower of Arazni.


I had always assumed the Chellish etc. noble perspective was more "you owe it to your family line to produce an heir, what you do for love or pleasure beyond that is your business."


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It's nice to have dragons where you can mix and match things like "aesthetics" instead of "well, a dragon like this of has to be [specific color]."


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Aenigma wrote:
Anyway, sigh. Does it mean the chance for Paizo remastering all the true dragons with different names is very slim?

Generally, filing the serial numbers off is a poor defense for infringing on someone else's copyright, but the example of the horned dragon is elucidating. Things like "a dragon" and "a dragon that is green" and "a dragon that is green and lives in the forest" and "a dragon that is green, lives in the forest, and spits poison" are all pretty generic. But to make that your own you need to take that and figure out something that's specific to your setting.

If you open up the Pathfinder wiki and search "green dragon" the second line under "appearance" is "Their horns can grow so large that they actually create a blind-spot in the dragon's vision and each dragon's horn is unique in its shape." So you choose to emphasize the thing that was always specific about your take on the dragon. But I think just doing it to do it is unnecessary. The role of "antagonistic dragons" and "friendly dragons" is pretty different, so I don't know if I"m ever going to need like "a silver dragon" as an NPC when I could use like a Sky Dragon or a Cloud Dragon instead.


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keftiu wrote:
"Changing" is all we know about it so far;

Yeah, I would assume that in addition to one of the core 20 gods dying there's also going to be lots of other divine trauma, like multiple minor gods will die and some of the other ones will undergo things they would prefer not to have.

Like just because Cayden isn't going to die, it doesn't mean that he can't lose an eye or hand!


I think ZK, Gorum, Nethys, Gozreh, Abadar, Erastil, and Norgorber are all more likely than Iomedae, Sarenrae or Shelyn.


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I would like to flavor the poison breath as "spitting poison" like a spitting cobra, rather than "poison gas" which seems more arcane than primal to me.


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Like we knew from the Kineticist playtest that the Kineticist was not supposed to excel at single target damage, it was certainly not intended to challenge classes like the fighter and the barbarian who are the kings at that sort of thing. The fighter is supposed to be better than the kineticist in any sort of fight that's against a single target party level +3. The Kineticist is going to excel instead in the fight that's like six creatures of party level -2.

As a GM you can handle "one class is specifically disadvantaged against this creature" buy having fewer fights that are "the party against one creature.".


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Themetricsystem wrote:
I still maintain that nothing other than it being Nethys kicking the bucket would make any sort of sense for the consequences we already know are in the pipeline in terms of magic blood dusting/raining down to possess and empower all manner of creatures and people.

You could even make the "what happens to existing followers" very simple via: Nethys is now the cosmic magical background radiation of the universe- more powerful than ever but just without ego, you still get your spells.


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I'm of two minds about Torag here. One reason they might not do it is that they already did a very Dwarfy book (Highhelm) and a very Dwarfy AP (Sky King's Tomb) and any story involving the loss of Torag is going to be very Dwarfy, so they might not want to go back to that well again. This is also something that is implied by Starfinder (Torag's not around there) which they might have wanted to avoid.

But if you wanted to do the death of Torag story, you'd probably want to lay that kind of groundwork. I'm not sure the Dwarf angle of the death of Torag would be that interesting, it's conceivable they would understand that his responsibilities and assets should be distributed to his family in an orderly sense of inheritance.


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It seems like many things are too small to *impale* on said horn. I guess the horned dragon doesn't eat those things.


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The "free a slave" Anathema for Asmodeus never really even made sense. Like if B is subordinate to A in the hierarchy, and A wants to punish B by "liberating" all of B's servants leaving B disadvantaged in that there's now no one to cook or tend the fields or w/e, that is consistent.

Which is why my model for the "friendly Asmodean" is the tyrant who ruthlessly oppresses exclusively those who are directly subordinate to them, oftentimes to the benefit of those who are subordinate to their subordinates.

Like as a Chellish Paracount you are an absolute scourge of any Archbaron or Archbaroness that darkens your doorstep, to the accidental benefit of various commoners and perhaps a Baron or Demibaron.

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