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I'm less interested in a Divine book than an Occult book, Primal book, or Arcane book.

But my main want from a big Divine book is a deep dive into the various religions in Golarion that are unrelated to "Gods" (e.g. Rivethun, Sangpotshi, Juju & Wendo, etc.) and to provide options for playing Champions for people from these faiths.

The Cleric can remain the "God" class, sure, but you should be able to be a Champion of all those other sincerely held beliefs too. Having far more mechanical support for "I worship Iomedae" than "I believe the spirits of my ancestors watch over me" sends the unfortunate message that the Iomedaens are "correct" in a way that the ancestor worshipers are not.

I'd also appreciate more detail on the thousand gods of Vudra.


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Even with Stoke Element Earth doesn't really get a good damaging AoE impulse before 18th. It's rare that you're going to hit more people with a 5'burst or a 30'line than you're going to hit with chain blast.

I think the Earth Wall being incredible is in part because your offensive impulses (except your basic blast and chain blast) are pretty weak.


So is there a way to make the Backpack Ballista into an elemental weapon?


Dubious Scholar wrote:
Geologic Attunement:

The "it turns off when you move" clause is about "you turn earth and stone in your aura into difficult terrain" which is the main reason to take the aura, depending on whether or not you expect to be fighting on the ground a lot. Since Earth has very short range, being able to keep people from running up to you is very useful.

I also think Assume Earth's Mantle is bad since it actually decreases your AC, Reflex, and Will saves compared to the +2 Greater Resilient Studded Leather you should own at level 14. You're basically trading -1 AC and -2 to Reflex and Will for a climb speed, the Apex effect for strength, and the bonus against tripping. The "free Apex" effect is neat, but it's weird this is an ability you use for offense.

What makes you think Rebirth in Living Stone gives you regenerating temp HP? Do you mean "just recasting it when your 40 Temp HP are gone"?


The one thing the Kineticist gets out of Constitution as a Key Ability Score is "you can have better fortitude saves than anybody else." In terms of the other thing that Con does, HP, you will be able to match a Barbarian who starts with a Con of 12 or a Fighter who starts at 14.

If you upgrade Con to Max and get the Apex item for it that will leave you at 24 which gives you as much HP as the Barbarian who upgraded their Con to 18, which is just a normal thing almost every Barbarian does to pass Fort saves.


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Con is a weak stat since investing in it is a purely passive thing. You have more HP and better fort saves and that's it, and these are both purely reactive things. It keeps you in the game but does nothing else.

If Constitution were removed from the game entirely I"m not sure anyone would notice.


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I'm not sure that the earth wall impulse being better than the other elements' wall impulse is a problem. Just like how air is the best at movement and enabling movement, earth should probably be the best at blocking and impeding movement. Earth already is dealing with the most limited AoE attacks (a 5' burst, a 30' line, and a 5' square+adjacent are what you get before level 18) so I think "the earth wall is better than the non-earth walls" is reasonable and also there should be an impulse that creates cover on demand before level 14.


Justify always carrying around fist-sized rocks by taking "additional lore- juggling".


I'm also not sure if you can't keep your fire gathered just kept down to the level of a candle flame balanced on your finger. I'd probably allow it.


Temperans wrote:
Also pre gather is mostly a dungeon thing. Imagine constanly having fire while walking down the street.

I feel like any context in which you could justify having your weapon drawn, you could also justify walking around with your element gathered. In fact, the set of situations where you can walk around with your element gathered is probably larger than the set of situations where you can walk around brandishing a large axe.


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Spamming earth walls is just so much fun though. I feel like control is a hard thing to overtune especially when the theme of your character is "I control earth and stone."

Like "the person who is best at walls" was also the 1e Kineticist.


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I consider Con to be the weakest stat in the game, and one you increase out of obligation (because you want to not-die) not because of anything the stat actually does.

Like that alternate ability score variant in the GMG that eliminates Con (by rolling it into Strength) seems eminently reasonable.


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aobst128 wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
The other thing about chain blast is that it's much more common for two enemies to be within 20' of each other (the minimum range increment for an elemental blast) while it's less likely to get two enemies along a 30' line (the best AoE impulse available to a level 10 geokineticist.)
Technically, any 2 creatures that are 20 feet away from each other are also within a 30 foot line. You would just need to be lined up as well.

Technically true, but if I'm using a 2 action overflow impulse I would rather use my third action to re-gather (so I can do whatever I want next turn) than have to move so I'm down an action next turn.


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The other thing about chain blast is that it's much more common for two enemies to be within 20' of each other (the minimum range increment for an elemental blast) while it's less likely to get two enemies along a 30' line (the best AoE impulse available to a level 10 geokineticist.)


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Note that chain blast is not overflow, while all the element specific AoE attacks are.


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Sentinel's a waste of feats, probably even if you are playing with free archetype. It doesn't do anything more than the general feat for 13 levels, would have to be delayed to after you get your first general feat if you want heavy armor (or retraining shenanigans).

Three feats (one general) is a lot to spend on what is effectively +1 AC versus what you can get for one feat.


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The Kineticist gets one measly armor proficiency boost through it's lifetime, so I'm not sure the value of "spending more than one feat on this" for the strength based kineticist.

Like the General Feat "Armor Proficiency" will get you trained in medium armor (so max AC with a dex of 12) and you get expert in light armor at level 13, so if you can get a dex score of 16 by level 13 (which should be easy if you started at 12- dex is one of those scores you boost because it's save relevant) then you'll have max AC with Studded Leather or a Chain Shirt at which point you can retrain out of "Armor Proficiency."

The awkward bit is that some ancestries/heritages can get a general feat at level 1 (e.g. Versatile Humans) and some have to wait until level 3.

So I don't think that Strength based kineticists are stronger necessarily than Dexterity based ones. The big difference is that the Dex character can afford to bump Int or Cha and the Str based one is sort of locked into boosting Str/Dex/Con/Wis for levels 1, 5, and 10.

You boost athletics because you're Str based and that's your one skill, but nothing in your class kit makes you better at maneuvers and you're constantly fighting the action economy anyway.

More maneuver support in class would be great though. The PF1 kineticist had all sorts of infusions that could be used to trip, shove, or grapple at range so you should at least be able to use "you control the ground" to be decent at them from the normal range.


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Martialmasters wrote:


So fire, air, and water that's clearly strength based, is SOL?

Doesn't really speak to the versatility of the class.

Well, I'm not sure there is a mechanical reason to build a strength based aero or pyro kineticist. There's a thematic reason too, but there's also thematic reasons to build a wizard who uses a maul.

Earth gets propulsive on its ranged blasts and Earth and Water are the two elements without finesse on their melee blasts.

You could make "Kinetic Armor" an impulse that has different effects based on what element you have gathered (different armor stats for every element so like heavy armor for earth and metal, medium for water and wood, light for air and fire). Require a some sort of focus thing worn on your body (like a headband) that you can inscribe fundamental runes on (or just make it stack with the item bonus from bracers of armor), and make it automatically up when you have an element gathered to reduce the number of "turn things on" action taxes in the first round.


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A thing about Armor is that Earth does have a thematically cool power that mimics armor. It's just that it's at level 14, and it actually reduces your armor class and saves relative to the magic armor you would own by then.

A reasonable solution is to give earth (and maybe water) a low level impulse that gives them an elemental suit that gives them better armor. You'd just need to make sure it isn't invalidated by "how magic armor scales". Like let us inscribe runes on it and don't make us spend 2 actions to turn it on at the start of combat (make it a "when you have a gathered element" kind of thing).


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The weird thing about the melee kineticist is that (I think) Elemental Weapon uses the stats of the weapon rather than the damage of your melee blast.In PF1 the analogous infusion "Kinetic Blade" used the stats of your blast and just let you use it in melee range without provoking.

There are some contexts where using the weapon's die size is beneficial (like an aerokineticist getting a d6 finesse weapon) and sometimes when it's not; a geokineticist has only so many common 1d8 1 handed martial weapons available, and most of them don't have a trait as good as forceful.

I guess this is a consequence of there being a wide variance in die size between kinetic blasts.


I don't love "you have to keep track of each hand separately" but there is currently an ambiguity as to whether you can use Stone Shield with an Elemental Weapon active.


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I think chain blast is the outlier because you can reliably hit lots of targets with it, which is not really a thing about your AoE impulses until you get to the higher level ones (it's hard to catch 2, let alone 3 targets in a 5' burst or a line of any length).


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Verzen wrote:
I'm not entirely convinced the class needs medium armor prof.

It's a thing dictated by your attributes.

Any time you get a class with a non-Dex/Str KAS, and someone starts with an 18 in their KAS, a 16 in their Strength, and a 12 in their Dex they are going to want to grab medium armor.


In my Hell's Rebels campaign I played a Vigilante by having the two identities fulfill different roles in the Silver Ravens organization. The social identity was the idle scion of a noble family sympathetic to the revolutionary cause that would bring her resources and connections to the organization but had remain inconspicuous lest the rest of her family figure out what's going on before it's too late. She was a person who was seen as flighty and unserious in public, a thing she took advantage of.

The other identity was a dashing, charming mystery man who will punch the $#@! out of evil-doers, always willing to put his life on the line to do what's right. But someone who (diegetically didn't want to remove his mask based on the premise that he was someone on the run from a tragic past that he just wanted to get away from, that would nonetheless result in being unavailable sometimes.)

Every player knew what was up. Their characters not figuring it out instantly was a roleplaying thing. After all, a lot of people want to help the revolution in the way that they can and you don't generally suspect they're up to something when all they are doing is helpful. For the GM to make this work, you had the frame of "you are running a revolution" so lots of people would drop in and out of whatever is going on in any scene. You could just easily figure out "this is not a NPC" based on "the person performing them is not the GM" but again, this is a roleplaying game.


Sometimes at the start of a turn you will find yourself without an element gathered (for example you used an overflow impulse at the end of your last turn.) Since literally everything you do requires a gathered element (and odds are you're not level 19 yet) that's going to eat one of your three actions.

So that leaves quite a few turns where you have to figure out what to do with two actions. Your three most likely choices now are: use a two-action impulse, blast twice, or move and blast in some order.

If you use a 2 action impulse with overflow that leaves you right back at the top of this post next turn. Almost all of the two-action impulses that aren't overflow don't do damage (notable exception Horrid Ignition) and it's generally not ideal to spend an entire turn in combat not damaging anybody (particularly when "ranged striker" is part of your job description.)

Move and Blast is sometimes ruled out by "you're standing exactly where you want to be". You want to do it when the current combat conditions suggest it, and not otherwise.

Blast twice is a perfectly viable strategy, but it would be nice if something could compete with it. Right now the impulses that can be combined with 1 action to gather, one action to use your elemental blast are: Voice of Elements (not really a combat ability), Stoke Element (something you'd probably rather combine with an impulse that hits more than one target), Cycling Blast (this is just a regular blast with a free element change), Whisper on the Wind (not really a combat ability), Stone Shield (a solid choice), and you can swap your aura to a different aura. For the last option I'm sure this is a good idea sometimes, but from what I've seen you tend to activate the aura you like best and leave it on. Of the other choices, Stone Shield is a solid option to combine with a gather and an elemental blast but the rest really aren't.

You'd get a lot more turn variety if there were a number of different one-action impulses you could use that are beneficial enough that you might want to activate them instead of activating your elemental blast a second time. I know the purpose of activities occupying taking two or more actions is to mandate "you can only do one of this kind of thing per turn" but we've already kind of limited how much you can do in one turn by the need to gather and the desire to minimize turns in which you don't do any damage.

My specific suggestion would be to change kinetic auras to only require one action to activate them if you used Gather Element to gather the element the aura has in the same turn (since that's 2 actions so it keeps you from using a 2-action impulse before level 19.) These are mutually exclusive, and you can already swap between them for one action once you have one up. Thematically this has the effect of "you open your internal gate to gather your element and you just keep it open a little bit longer to let the element flow in a less controlled fashion". Since there's already a lot of things to turn on, you *could* offer a one action credit on a wider range of non-overflow impulses, but the auras seem like the ones that are most appropriate to do this with.


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The Elemental Blast should be allowed to be better than a shortbow because it is not a weapon and it doesn't compete with weapons, it's the whole reason you sign up for the class. If you're concerned about breaking stuff through multiclassing there's a lot of ways around that (for one "elemental blast" is not a strike, so it can't be used with flurry of blows, spellstrike, Attack of Opportunity, etc.)

If you're concerned about niche protection with the shortbow, you can make it less attractive to attack repeatedly in one turn. The Kineticist has a lot of 2 action activities they would happily combine with "one elemental blast."


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I feel like "I caused an earthquake, so now the ground is difficult" or "I caused a volcano to errupt, so walking there is going to hurt you" or "I caused a sandstorm so now you can't see what's going on in there" is more key to the fantasy of the kineticist than "I caused an earthquake so you fell down" or "I made a volcano erupt so you are dazzled" or "I caused a sandstorm so I can move people around."

Let the Kineticist play more with the battlefield and the need to land effects with DC is less. Like your ability to spam walls at high levels is AMAZING.


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"Bucklers are strapped to your arm so they don't occupy your hand" is a creation of role playing games for game mechanical reasons (as a shield with fewer of the downsides of using a shield that also offers less protection.

But probably the closest historic analogue is the Scottish targe, which was sometimes attached with straps around the forearm and wrist in concert with a dirk held in a hammer grip in the combatant's off-hand (which would poke out underneath the coverage of the shield).


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Qi is worth more points in scrabble.


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I think we might be overestimating how much the kineticist relies on their class DC. Something like 24 impulses use it, but there are over 90 kineticist feats to choose from.


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It does seem like a die increase somewhere along the way might do the job. Sure, you would end up with some kinetic blasts being better ranged options than other classes get, but the reason you sign up to be the class of "someone who can throw boulders around all day" is that this sounds more effective at hurting people than a bow and arrows.


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I don't know if we need to view the Kineticist as getting too many feats, since ultimately a large number of the impulse feats are just comparable to other classes getting focus spells (and sometimes there are quite a few of those). It's just that the impulse feats are in the same place as the rest of the class and the focus spells are often in a different chapter.


Walls and your rock buddy who provides cover were a real highlight, for sure. I'm much happier doing battlefield control than weak AoE spam.


I could see Telekineticist and Chaokineticist as class archetypes, but they won't be in this book.


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It's unclear why I would want to fight in melee as a kineticist in the playtest. Your melee blast isn't significantly more powerful than your ranged blast, and you provoke when attacking in melee. You could use elemental weapon, but you would then do the weapon damage rather than your blast damage and you're not really here because you think weapons are cool.

Like other than "you literally can't get away" I would rather eat the AoO from striding and blast at range than blast in melee. If I could get a melee blast that moved my opponent away from me, that would be interesting though, since I can switch hit it's just that I have no reason to want to hang out within the reach of dangerous things.


Ed Reppert wrote:
Final Gate makes you permanently quickened, but you can only use the fourth action to Gather an element. Which is not subject to MAP.

Haste isn't rare, and the CRB says:

Quote:
If you become quickened from multiple sources, you can use the extra action you’ve been granted for any single action allowed by any of the effects that made you quickened

Still Maelstrom blast has overflow, so you wouldn't be able to use elemental blast with it afterwards, but elemental blasts aren't strikes so you can't use them with haste. Still, you could maelstrom blast then kick somebody while hasted which would be a bad idea because of MAP.

So I think this is just standard language for "you attack a bunch of people, but MAP doesn't apply to these attacks" ability.


I would like for the plane of wood to not have a single elemental lord, but a huge number of them that communicate telepathically and reach decisions via consensus.

"Trees discuss it among themselves at great length before rendering a decision" seems like a thing you see in lots of different fantasy settings.


The way to think of range increments I think is "how many actions does it take an opponent to get into melee range". Without difficult terrain around them, the Geokineticist hangs out in "one action to get into melee" range of basically everybody (that's why their difficult terrain aura is important.) Water hangs out between 1-2 strides for most things. Air *can* hang out at a range that can't be reached in a single turn spent doing nothing but moving, but might not be able to because the room isn't that big for example.


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The number of Elemental Lords isn't a structural part of the plane, right? It's a de facto representation of the power structures in the politics of the plane.

Like a plane could have 0-900 elemental lords right? It's much like how the First World could have any number of Eldest (including zero).


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It's worthwhile to let people make characters that are 100% compatible with the themes of their ancestry/heritage, and it's also worthwhile to let people make characters that run diametrically opposed to the themes of their ancestry heritage. Trust that people will create and play the characters they want to play.

But an Ifrit who gets water powers isn't really weirder than a Tiefling who becomes a Champion of Desna.


This is the same language (and number of actions) as the Fighter Feat Impossible Volley, which is in the CRB. It's just there in case you get a fourth action you could use to do something which interacts with MAP.


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It does feel weird that every impulse provokes since sure, spellcasting provokes. But when I imagine the sort of movements that the Kineticist does to manipulate their elements they're based on things like martial arts katas (after all, you are a master of unarmed attacks at level 13) which doesn't feel like a thing that should provoke.

Like the Wizard throwing a fireball is distracted by mystic nonsense, but the pyrokineticist is more focusing on their surroundings as their goal is "I want to make the fire I have here go over there."

Overflow things should probably provoke, but a lot of impulses shouldn't provoke any more than "entering a stance" would.


I guess the thing is that "even interacting with your class DC" is kind of optional for the Kineticist. So if you're not inclined to take those AoE impulses (because you prefer like the defensive or utility ones), how much of your class budget are you willing to commit to legendary class DC?

It's different with spellcasters since sure you can cast spells without DCs, but you can also choose to learn/prepare spells that do target DCs, and you get a lot of spells. The Kineticist gets like 8-10 impulses over their career and less than half of those have anything to do with the DC.


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The thing about "the Kineticist is about 2-4 damage low" sounds right to me since one of the strange things about the class is that almost everybody else gets to add a stat in some capacity to damage or gets some sort of damage bonus to their attacks (since they're weapons that usually add str or half strength to damage) or something that adds static damage (inventor's Overdrive; precision damage for Rangers, Swashbucklers, Investigators, etc.; even the Gunslinger's +1 combined with getting the most out of weapon spec.)

If you were to add a static modifier to kinetic blasts, you'd probably run into a problem with earth blasts being overtuned since they also get propulsive. But if you just added Con to blast damage (like cantrips) and replaced propulsive on Earth blasts with something else that's useful, I think that would work.


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Ly'ualdre wrote:
Bugbears tend to be misanthropes, keeping to themselves and are generally regarded as being more evil than other Goblininoids.

"We're grumpy loners and keep to ourselves, because we don't think highly of others including others of our own species" seems like a much easier thing to make a playable ancestry than the Drow are. Since Bugbears aren't likely to get a bunch of bad ideas about things from other Bugbears.


Pronate11 wrote:
speaking of this, does anyone know when the playtest ends?

Per the PDF:

Quote:
The playtest will run until September 5th, 2022.


The real reason to keep damage low from really long range attacks is to remove the problem of "in an infinite open field with no cover anywhere, a character with a long range attack who is also very good at moving will win" by making it unappealing.

I do not know how you fix the "some people will see 120' and think this is broken" and "some people will see 1d4" and think "I prefer something else" issue. Since Air was the one in PF1 with really long range (just not less damage.)


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The low accuracy is just levels 5-7 where you're 2 behind the Investigator, Inventor, Thaumaturge, etc. The low AC is when you are strength based before you grabbed medium armor, otherwise you're just the same as the Rogue. The Low DC is just the same DC as the Alchemist and every other martial.

The AoO thing needs fixing if you want to fight in melee, but otherwise isn't really a bad thing for someone whose bread and butter works at range.


Unicore wrote:
The range on earth abilities are generally pretty short range.

You're also supposed to be the Kineticist who is more comfortable close to danger.


Could you not also use cycling blast to gather then blast, then overflow every round? This would prevent you from using defensive stuff that overflows when you use it (like stone shield) but it would be pretty decent pressure.

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