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Well, the rotary bow helps enable builds that don't get tricks to alleviate small ranges. Plus, a d8 is better for non fighter/gunslingers compared to fatal guns. I can see a rotary bow being pretty good on a drifter though.


Karmagator wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
It's interesting now that martial crossbows are now explicitly better than their firearm counterparts minus concussive and certain utility like risky reload. They're solid choices now.
I believe you are referring to the sukgung vs the jezail? Because in that case, I wouldn't really say "better". The jezail's 90ft range is plenty for almost all encounters you'll ever have, so I'd say concussive is better. That said, I absolutely agree that we have some solid choices now.

That and the rotary bow vs the slide pistol and pepper box. The difference between 30 feet and 80 feet is a bigger deal at least.


Arachnofiend wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
VictorTheII wrote:

Martial Crossbows let's GO!

The range on that Sukgung almost feels like a typo...if I may put a tinfoil hat on for a second it almost feels like they were going to release an arbalest that was a bow version of the arquebus at one stage, but they just decided to give the range to the suksong and called it a day.

So we're left with the best of both worlds, wield it in 2 hands and it trades the arquebus's extra features for 50ft of range. Wield it in one hand and it's an upgraded hand crossbow with over 3 times the range.

It does make some of the other martial crossbows harder to sell to a player though, since they seemed to have been balanced more harshly. Saving grace here is range doesn't come into play that often for most adventures so their utility might be enough if you build into them.

For example, Gauntlet bow being free hand means you can lean in hard into gunslinger reactions and never worry about having your main weapon reloaded before your turn is over. Heck this might even make instant return finally viable and actively encourage you to end the turn with your meain weapon unloaded and sudenly you can have access to every gunslinger reaction at the same time.

Basically the new martial crossbows are less likely to affect my current builds and more likely to open up new ones, which is good so long as your GM does not impose pre gunpowder tech. I almost wish there was a more generic martial crossbow that was just the harmona gun with less range for those sort of tables (for a ranger or inventor mostly), but It's not that hard to justify a homebrew when compared to the Sukgung's range so they should be fine.

I'd actually compare it to the jezail since it's its closest mechanical neighbor. They must value concussive a lot I think since that and range are what separates them. Apparently, it's worth over 100 feet of range in this case.
Well bludgeoning is the best physical damage type and piercing is probably the worst so it's not...

Oh I agree. Just noting the precise budget is more transparent with these new weapons.


Those aren't the explicit rules but I don't know how else it's supposed to work. Much simpler with crossbows but as a first reload 1 bow, eh, It's weird.


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VictorTheII wrote:

Martial Crossbows let's GO!

The range on that Sukgung almost feels like a typo...if I may put a tinfoil hat on for a second it almost feels like they were going to release an arbalest that was a bow version of the arquebus at one stage, but they just decided to give the range to the suksong and called it a day.

So we're left with the best of both worlds, wield it in 2 hands and it trades the arquebus's extra features for 50ft of range. Wield it in one hand and it's an upgraded hand crossbow with over 3 times the range.

It does make some of the other martial crossbows harder to sell to a player though, since they seemed to have been balanced more harshly. Saving grace here is range doesn't come into play that often for most adventures so their utility might be enough if you build into them.

For example, Gauntlet bow being free hand means you can lean in hard into gunslinger reactions and never worry about having your main weapon reloaded before your turn is over. Heck this might even make instant return finally viable and actively encourage you to end the turn with your meain weapon unloaded and sudenly you can have access to every gunslinger reaction at the same time.

Basically the new martial crossbows are less likely to affect my current builds and more likely to open up new ones, which is good so long as your GM does not impose pre gunpowder tech. I almost wish there was a more generic martial crossbow that was just the harmona gun with less range for those sort of tables (for a ranger or inventor mostly), but It's not that hard to justify a homebrew when compared to the Sukgung's range so they should be fine.

I'd actually compare it to the jezail since it's its closest mechanical neighbor. They must value concussive a lot I think since that and range are what separates them. Apparently, it's worth over 100 feet of range in this case.


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Squiggit wrote:
I mean it does what 1+ does in every other function. It lets you wield the weapon while having a free hand. So you can walk around and open doors and drink potions and stuff without having the same hand economy problems 2h weapons do. Unless the weapon in question has text that changes that, in which case yeah it's kind of an odd choice.

In the case that you are walking around with a free hand, it isn't loaded because it's a bow. That's the kicker. You could do the same thing with 2 handed weapons with the same action economy.


Squiggit wrote:

I mean 1+ weapons say they need two hands to wield them. It's pretty unambiguous. It's actually much clearer than the criticisms of reload 0, since the only way to be confused is to ignore part of the ability.

That said both of them are pretty easy to parse and the confusion is mostly only relevant so we have something to do on the forums, so who knows when (if ever) Paizo will make any changes.

The idea is that that while it's loaded, it kinda looses 1+ and becomes 2 until you fire it since you'd naturally have both hands on your bow while an arrow is nocked. Probably how I'd do it but it's in a weird position of that's basically how 2 handed crossbows and firearms work anyways based on the rules of loading. You can have a free hand while it's unloaded and return the hand when you reload it. In this case, 1+ doesn't really have a function.


I like the rotary bow on an inventor. Allows you to utilize your shield block for as long as you have capacity rounds.

Plus weapon innovation can easily make up for the lack of concussive if you're comparing it to the slide pistol. Then it has more than twice the range after that. Rotary bow enables a lot of different switch hitting or shielded builds now and I appreciate that.


Yeah, which would disallow it from abilities like quickdraw unfortunately. Kind sad. I like the idea of the dark souls greatbow this thing has going though. I see it as another foil to hobgoblins mortal enemy. Elves and their deft archery skills with flurries of arrows while the hobgoblins just need 1.


graystone wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
The biggest issue I see with GMs giving it too close a look is not being able to have it pre loaded before combat since it's supposed to be a bow and that's absurd.
I don't think most would have an issue: Technically, a normal bow can't be nocked in advance of strike but I don't recall a DM ever saying anything about that.

That's probably the reasonable way to do it. Just have one nocked while exploring. However, you couldn't have an arrow nocked while you're wearing it like you can with crossbows.


The biggest issue I see with GMs giving it too close a look is not being able to have it pre loaded before combat since it's supposed to be a bow and that's absurd.


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Perpdepog wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
The lancer is pretty cool for triggerbrands. Their efficiency sort of makes up for reload 2 after those first 2 capacity shots. Salvo from reach is appealing to me.
Wait, did we get a gun lance?

Almost. It's technically a crossbow. All of the new combination weapons are in the bow group and one is in the sling group. Lancer is a 2 handed d6 spear with reach and a d8 crossbow with reload 2 and capacity 2.


The lancer is pretty cool for triggerbrands. Their efficiency sort of makes up for reload 2 after those first 2 capacity shots. Salvo from reach is appealing to me.


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Now we have another loaded 1+ weapon with the phalanx piercer. It's supposed to actually be a massive bow and explicitly not a crossbow so I wonder if that 1+ is circumstantial since I don't know how you would load it and not be needing to hold it in 2 hands while it's loaded. A bit weird.


Now I want to build an "anti drifter" with a falcata and a rotary bow.


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It's interesting now that martial crossbows are now explicitly better than their firearm counterparts minus concussive and certain utility like risky reload. They're solid choices now.


Maybe they'll add more context with the throwers bandoliers.


The rotary bow seems like a great choice for drifter now. Alleviates their dependency on dual weapon reload and has more than twice the range of the slide pistol. Plus their gameplay suggests making ranged strikes as a second attack through drifters juke and sword and pistol. Fatal is not that useful in those cases so you can diversify your tactics.


Plus, it's not the typical advanced proficiency to martial trade. It's advanced to simple. Which means simple weapon classes can get scaling proficiency in the falcata with a general feat and tengu weapon familiarity.


roquepo wrote:
Don't think the falcata is eligible, the feat only covers martial common weapons.

A little further down the text gives you advanced swords if you're proficient with martial weapons


QuidEst wrote:
keftiu wrote:

I'm excited to swing a Falcata around, especially on something like a Magus or Thaumaturge.

Did anyone spot the Klar anywhere? It's supposed to be in alongside the Earthreaker, but I didn't see it.

As far as I know, Falcata as a non-ancestry advanced weapon, requires either Fighter or a 6th level Fighter feat taken through multiclass archetype at level 12 to use with scaling proficiency. That said, human with Weapon Proficiency will have a scary first four levels.

Tengu has you covered with that. Although, the ancestry itself is uncommon.


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Yep. Sturdy shield is still ubiquitous if you plan to shield block. Base shields and special material shields are still left out. Bummer. The massive 5 bulk shield that gives a +3 to AC will break in one hit later on because there's no special version of it with better stats. Sturdy should have been a rune or something that you can apply to base shields.


Xethik wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
That still leaves the question of why reload 0. Still awkward considering runes. Hopefully there's something that hasn't been covered yet that will put my mind at ease.
Yeah I want to say there is a confirmed item from Discord spoilers for that... no clue on the stats. Called the Thrower's Bandoleer. Might not work with the Chakri now that I think about it, since it will probably require it to be on the bandoleer.

Awesome. I would hope that with this new printing of the Chakri, they wouldn't add an item to help reload 0 thrown weapons but have it explicitly not work with the one they printed in the book lol. But we'll have to see.


You switch right before using the reaction I believe


breithauptclan wrote:
pauljathome wrote:
In the abstract it sounds fine but I'd definitely want to see the particular items the player was thinking of combining just in case there was some edge case or facet that I hadn't thought of

That's a good point.

The two I am thinking of for a specific character are Tome and Amulet. A crystal ball on a chain that is used both as a source of information and as a warding tool.

Which leads to another question - can you switch implements before using Amulet's Abeyance reaction?

Amulet Implement becomes a lot weaker if you can't.

Isn't that explicitly what the 5th level ability does for specific action implements? Allows you to use your amulet's reaction while you're wearing it as long as you're holding another implement.


I wonder why all the reprints from Gods and Magic.


The dwarf d10 reach flail is also awesome


Probably not if your implements are always on your person. Would be a weird .2 bulk item mechanically but wouldn't change much if anything.


Before we had human flickmace fighters, now we have tengu falcata fighters. Or anyone really. Tengu weapon familiarity is powerful. Can bring a simple weapon class up to falcata proficiency with just a general feat and an ancestry feat. Tengu martials having easy access to the falcata at level one will probably bring out some more bird players.


That's what I was thinking. I hadn't read the description yet. Bummer.


I wonder if the gauntlet bow can technically be reloaded with the free hand attached to it. Essentially making it capacity with an infinite clip. Kinda how I figured how weapon inventors worked with the free hand mod on loaded weapons.


That still leaves the question of why reload 0. Still awkward considering runes. Hopefully there's something that hasn't been covered yet that will put my mind at ease.


graystone wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
Looks like they reprinted the Chakri in TV. No longer reload 0.
That's not quite true: the description says "A chakri is small enough that up to 2 can be worn on each wrist. A chakri worn on the wrist is reload 0 instead of reload -."

I missed the description then. That's pretty neat.


Boomerang is crazy for a thrown weapon. 60 feet makes it a shortbow. Instant best ranged thaumaturge option. Makes the rotary bow a little less shiny in comparison.


Scratch that. It's the boomerang. That thing has the range of a shortbow. Nuts


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The Sukgung being common is really nice too if you like firearms but don't have access to them. That range is crazy compared to its counterpart with the jezail. I guess concussive is highly valued.


I like all the ranged weapons. Kinda bummed that there's only one new firearm though. One note about the shield bow is why not just have a standard shortbow and a buckler? Same capabilities. Rotary bow is better than I was expecting. Gauntlet bow I think just replaces bucklers since it's free hand and it has the parry trait. Pretty handy.


Looks like they reprinted the Chakri in TV. No longer reload 0. Maybe it was a mistake after all. Nice niche of the largest range of one handed thrown weapons now at least. If you have access. The shuriken is all alone now.


That orc gun is scary. Narrow effective range with volley but 8 repeating shots with kickback makes a happy orc vanguard.


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The falcata is surprising. Just straight up the most damaging one handed melee weapon. I'm not complaining though. D8 / fatal d12 is very good to look at.


Iron druids sound rad. I wonder if they can avoid the no metal rule.


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It was a way for archers to get +2 from propulsive by level 5 and have decent health. That and human drifters that opted for non finesse weapons to better fit the mold of a switch hitter by dumping int and cha. That did enable drifter builds but archers are probably fine.


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Iruxi remain the best warpriests only because of their stats. Although, might be more of a problem of the warpriest itself needing everything except intelligence.


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The Contrarian wrote:
25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:
every town or city with a garbage heap should have significant goblin population

I'm offended that you would liken an entire people to garbage dwelling offal of society.

How would you like it if it was said that leshy could only thrive in the waste of others? You, young sprout, should be ashamed for your bigotry.

;P

The first AP I tried out happened to be outlaws of alkenstar in which, the goblin population all lived in the city dump... Lol


Ravingdork wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
They still serve to fill out certain builds that need early prerequisites such as bastion builds. Humans still have the unique opportunity to grab 2 general feats at first level. Which adds a lot of extra potential to archetype flexibility at low levels.
However, that is somewhat mitigated by the extreme popularity of Free Archetypes.

Does that change much? You still need shield block to take bastion dedication even when it's free.


They still serve to fill out certain builds that need early prerequisites such as bastion builds. Humans still have the unique opportunity to grab 2 general feats at first level. Which adds a lot of extra potential to archetype flexibility at low levels.


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That and multitalented.


Dancing Wind wrote:
Ched Greyfell wrote:
The only thing I don't like is that humans always had a free +2/+2. And it was supposed to emphasize their versatility. Now all ancestries get it OR their old options. So it kinda feels like humans got shafted.

Humans haven't lost any of their versatility. Nothing has changed in how you create or play a character with human heritage. You can be just as versatile as you ever were.

I'm not sure what got "shafted" here when nothing changed for humans.

The idea is that humans lost their unique versatility that made them powerful comparatively. They're unchanged but weaker with that loss. It was a large part of what made humans a potent choice that isn't unique to humans anymore.


I think you might be missing the point. The thing is that investigators have the opportunity to fully capitalize when they crit. Not that they crit more often. Their rolls are diverse and flexible. You use that to your advantage with backup weapons and skills. You plan around your DAS. That's the whole point of it.


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Johannason wrote:

So it's consensus that the feat Ammunition Thaumaturge only allows for the use of Slings, Hand Crossbows, and I guess Blowguns unless you also find a feat for Firearm proficiency?

And "Just use thrown weapons, lol" is the answer to "why does this feat suck RAW?".

Do I have that right?

It works for firearms as well. Doesn't have anything to do with proficiency. Just lets you reload with your hands occupied with implements. Makes thaumaturge actually a good use case for firearms because of their high consistent damage so even without fatal crits, you still dish out a fair bit of damage.

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