Tian Xia: Coming 2023–2024!

IIRC in Oriental Adventurs, one needed another class in addition to ninja to show the secretive nature of the ninja. It was kind of like PF1e vigilante. IIRC they also had their own sword, a ninja-to. Not kbowing enough about Japanese history, I am not sire that is a historical weapon.

IIRC in Oriental Adventurs, one needed another class in addition to ninja to show the secretive nature of the ninja. It was kind of like PF1e vigilante. IIRC they also had their own sword, a ninja-to. Not kbowing enough about Japanese history, I am not sire that is a historical weapon.

Ninjatō is supposed preferred weapon of ninjas (a short katana like blade) without historical evidence of it having actually existed, its basically probably pop culture invention based on wakizashi as far as I understand

Tbf, swoosh is right about Druid though.

Like Druid isn't general european term its specifically ancient Celt.

The difference being that Fantasy Druid has nothing to do with Celtic Druid.

Whereas Fantasy Ninja is built upon and codified by the Japanese historical/folklore/media archetype.

The argument to separate or neglect them just seems foolish and dumb.

Could you please elaborate on what precisely you find "foolish" and "dumb" about it?

That explains your feelings on the matter, but doesn't actually point out any specific flaws in the reasoning, which doesn't really contribute anything meaningful to the discussion at large.

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

IIRC in Oriental Adventurs, one needed another class in addition to ninja to show the secretive nature of the ninja. It was kind of like PF1e vigilante. IIRC they also had their own sword, a ninja-to. Not kbowing enough about Japanese history, I am not sire that is a historical weapon.

Ninjatō is supposed preferred weapon of ninjas (a short katana like blade) without historical evidence of it having actually existed, its basically probably pop culture invention based on wakizashi as far as I understand

You might want to check out GaijinGoomba on YouTube and his multiple analyses on ninjas and samurais ;)

It was indeed a ninja weapon, but given its length, it wasn't always used, and like I said, a ninja wasn't always an assassin, but an intelligence gatherer. Ninjas sneaked in, stole plans and got out unnoticed. If they killed, they would be spotted almost instantly. If spotted, they would likely subdue their targets.

A historical ninja was essentially a spy whose job was mostly to gather intel and report them to their Lords. They rarely assassinated people, as blood splatters would be too glaring and obvious. The idea of this stealthy and powerful warrior came from medias.

Speaking of generic names, I think 'Spy' would be an excellent class name that could cover some things that the current rogue does not cover. Stealthy poisoner with smoke bomb and some ki magic (ninja) could be covered by it, as could the Vigilante (though this is already an archetype), but also more diplomatic characters that don't necessarily want to use music, the gods, or the blood of their ancestors to influence people.

CorvusMask wrote:

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

IIRC in Oriental Adventurs, one needed another class in addition to ninja to show the secretive nature of the ninja. It was kind of like PF1e vigilante. IIRC they also had their own sword, a ninja-to. Not kbowing enough about Japanese history, I am not sire that is a historical weapon.

Ninjatō is supposed preferred weapon of ninjas (a short katana like blade) without historical evidence of it having actually existed, its basically probably pop culture invention based on wakizashi as far as I understand

You might want to check out GaijinGoomba on YouTube and his multiple analyses on ninjas and samurais ;)

It was indeed a ninja weapon, but given its length, it wasn't always used, and like I said, a ninja wasn't always an assassin, but an intelligence gatherer. Ninjas sneaked in, stole plans and got out unnoticed. If they killed, they would be spotted almost instantly. If spotted, they would likely subdue their targets.

That's the thing though, japanese ninjutsu experts claim it is real weapon even though history wise first evidence of it is photo in 1956 ninja book

Like its technically correct to say its a ninja weapon because that IS what modern ninjutsu practitioners teach, but its historical status is still questionable as far as I know

Y’know… Tian Xia has a lot of deities who could use LN Champions. Both Shizuru and General Susumu allow for them, and that might scratch the 'mystical samurai' itch in a roundabout way - while also helping out the likes of Diomazul, Nalinivati, and Yamatsumi.

Maybe 2024 is the year of the fabled Divine Book, as the rulebook offering coming after these?

From a design perspective, Paizo seems to give each class a strong, unique mechanic that all builds revolve around. In that sense, outside of Naruto, the ninja's most iconic move (in media) is striking from the shadows. As this is close enough to sneak attack, I would struggle to see a reason to make a different class. But the rogue is missing the iconic mystic abilities similar to monk. I think a rogue subclass that gives access to these ki abilities would be ideal.

As for Samurai, there are two things I want: some quick draw with a melee for bonuses mechanics, and a reason to build a two hander that doesn't want armor. I think both could be handled with fighter feats.

New classes take a lot of space. I'd really like to see a Tian Xia take on all current classes, using subclasses and feats, to give more options to all characters from the continent.

Considering everything, I don't know if I have a preference for what will end up in the book since I know whatever makes it will very likely be good. Maybe that "wandering swordsman" idea of the unarmored 2 handed build. That'd be cool.

I'm really excited to see what Paizo does with the various subregions and nations that have so far been mostly glossed over.

Dtang Ma is famous for its magic and alchemy, but some of the writeups I've read seem to imply it organizes its magical structures differently and I feel like there are cool opportunities there.

That's just one example though there are a lot of nations in Tian Xia with interesting hooks to them, but previously only a handful of sentences describing each.

There are also some nations with slightly more awkward lore and I'm interested in seeing how Paizo might alter or update them too.

To get away from the Ninja/Samurai argument some - do we think there'll be a primarily-Tian season of Society to pair with this? I'd love to see the Lantern Lodge stand on its own two feet.

Without speaking for Shay and/or revealing future plans: we learned from the Year of So Many Demons back in PFS1 that if we theme the years too closely to the rulebook/AP releases, the people who aren't interested in that theme will quickly grow frustrated and wander off. As such I wouldn't expect a heavy "Year of Tian Xia" in PFS Year 5 or 6, but I'd certainly love to see more adventures in Tian Xia!

none of this comment applies if Shay rocks up in 6 months with a great pitch for a Lantern Lodge Year that we run with, don't @ me if that happens

From an organizational standpoint, lets move any theorizing to separate threads please, so as to not clog the product thread. Those who are curious about what IS in the book....maybe stay tuned for PaizoCon news:)

Bit disappointing we'll be getting the Adventure Path set in Shenmen before the Guides work; meaning we won't have these iconic ancestries as options in the land they're from.

Still hyped, though; already planning on saving up Achievement Points for PFS to eventually buy my tanuki option there.

I mean, nothing says you need to start an AP the month the first book comes out.

JiCi wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

IIRC in Oriental Adventurs, one needed another class in addition to ninja to show the secretive nature of the ninja. It was kind of like PF1e vigilante. IIRC they also had their own sword, a ninja-to. Not kbowing enough about Japanese history, I am not sire that is a historical weapon.

Ninjatō is supposed preferred weapon of ninjas (a short katana like blade) without historical evidence of it having actually existed, its basically probably pop culture invention based on wakizashi as far as I understand

You might want to check out GaijinGoomba on YouTube and his multiple analyses on ninjas and samurais ;)

It was indeed a ninja weapon, but given its length, it wasn't always used, and like I said, a ninja wasn't always an assassin, but an intelligence gatherer. Ninjas sneaked in, stole plans and got out unnoticed. If they killed, they would be spotted almost instantly. If spotted, they would likely subdue their targets.

That's the thing though, japanese ninjutsu experts claim it is real weapon even though history wise first evidence of it is photo in 1956 ninja book

Like its technically correct to say its a ninja weapon because that IS what modern ninjutsu practitioners teach, but its historical status is still questionable as far as I know

Just a note tHat IIRC RL ninjas were from the lower classes and did not have access to good weapons. For sure they did not have katanas or wakizashis. Using straight bladed swords does seem consistent with that.

Draven Torakhan wrote:

Bit disappointing we'll be getting the Adventure Path set in Shenmen before the Guides work; meaning we won't have these iconic ancestries as options in the land they're from.

Still hyped, though; already planning on saving up Achievement Points for PFS to eventually buy my tanuki option there.

I mean, nothing says you need to start an AP the month the first book comes out.

TBH I generally wait until the AP is at least half-released before contemplating running it. You've got more resources to draw from viz helping iron out any issues you may have with the adventure, or putting your own spin on things.

Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:

IIRC in Oriental Adventurs, one needed another class in addition to ninja to show the secretive nature of the ninja. It was kind of like PF1e vigilante. IIRC they also had their own sword, a ninja-to. Not kbowing enough about Japanese history, I am not sire that is a historical weapon.

Ninjatō is supposed preferred weapon of ninjas (a short katana like blade) without historical evidence of it having actually existed, its basically probably pop culture invention based on wakizashi as far as I understand

Thank you!

So... which one has tea originated from Minkai?

Just a note tHat IIRC RL ninjas were from the lower classes and did not have access to good weapons. For sure they did not have katanas or wakizashis. Using straight bladed swords does seem consistent with that.

Well, the thing is that it DID exist, but it wasn't a COMMON tool, because it was expansive to make and a bit cumbersome to carry. They did weaponize farm tools, but it was also to help them for infiltration.

AFAIK the idea of "weaponizing" farm tools originated on Okinawa.

There are many western weapons based on tools too ;-)

I dunno how comfortable I am with either "fix" for Bachuan's iconoclasm. First, with the idea that it needed to be fixed at all, iconoclasm is a defensible enough position (and what other fixes are going to be sneaking in the backdoor - privatization of the land?). Second, with old cultural objects being reintroduced by the erstwhile inhabitants of Hao Jin's tapestry - I'm not sure that I buy their authenticity? In the real world, reimportations of so-called old cultural objects by longstanding emigre groups range from well-intentioned but mistaken to reactionary and malicious.

There are many western weapons based on tools too ;-)

I mean, the history of the world is full of "farmer/peasant revolts" and it's not like these people have access to weapons that aren't farming tools. You hit somebody with your billhook or machete and they're going to notice.

Katana, Kama, Kusarigama, Daikyu, Flintlock Firearms (copied from occident), Naginata, Tekko-Kagi, Sai, Tonfa, Tekko-Kagi.

That'd be matchlocks, historically. Flintlocks were hardly used anywhere before the 1620s at the earliest and Japan's great era of firearms in warfare started much earlier - and finished earlier, with the Tokugawa victory.

Ya know, if we ever got shuriken improving archetype, it better be fricking accurate to how they are supposed to be used.

Mostly that shurikens are kinda like caltrops, you are supposed to throw them at enemy while you are escaping :p

That's not how caltrops (makibishi) were used though, they were prepared ahead of time to act as area denial for pursuing enemies since the point was that only the ninja who set them would know the safe spots and in the darkness they couldn't be seen easily.

I dunno how comfortable I am with either "fix" for Bachuan's iconoclasm. First, with the idea that it needed to be fixed at all, iconoclasm is a defensible enough position (and what other fixes are going to be sneaking in the backdoor - privatization of the land?). Second, with old cultural objects being reintroduced by the erstwhile inhabitants of Hao Jin's tapestry - I'm not sure that I buy their authenticity? In the real world, reimportations of so-called old cultural objects by longstanding emigre groups range from well-intentioned but mistaken to reactionary and malicious.

Do you mean isolationism? Iconoclasm would involve more destruction of religious idols, I think :P

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

I dunno how comfortable I am with either "fix" for Bachuan's iconoclasm. First, with the idea that it needed to be fixed at all, iconoclasm is a defensible enough position (and what other fixes are going to be sneaking in the backdoor - privatization of the land?). Second, with old cultural objects being reintroduced by the erstwhile inhabitants of Hao Jin's tapestry - I'm not sure that I buy their authenticity? In the real world, reimportations of so-called old cultural objects by longstanding emigre groups range from well-intentioned but mistaken to reactionary and malicious.

Do you mean isolationism? Iconoclasm would involve more destruction of religious idols, I think :P

I meant iconoclasm. As in the policy that had seemingly destroyed the "past once thought lost for good" that is now being restored.

Great News!!! We finally have something from Tian Xia.

But there aren't anything about classes (with exception from Magus Hybrid Study) and many players call for oriental themed classes like Samurai, Ninja and even Onmyoji, Wu Shi, Musa, Fangshi and Mudang.

There's some prevision for such more cultural related classes? (I also miss this for Garund region I think maybe there classes related to such culture too) Because we already have many region and cultural related ancestries but the classes are all generic.

I highly doubt we'll get these as classes. I have noted that cultural and regional ideas are typically archetypes. I suspect that the character guide will be split between new ancestry content (new releases and expanded existing) as well as likely some class feats and most importantly archetypes. A ninja or samurai archetype would be plenty to cover the ideas.

YuriP wrote:

Great News!!! We finally have something from Tian Xia.

But there aren't anything about classes (with exception from Magus Hybrid Study) and many players call for oriental themed classes like Samurai, Ninja and even Onmyoji, Wu Shi, Musa, Fangshi and Mudang.

There's some prevision for such more cultural related classes? (I also miss this for Garund region I think maybe there classes related to such culture too) Because we already have many region and cultural related ancestries but the classes are all generic.

I highly doubt we'll get these as classes. I have noted that cultural and regional ideas are typically archetypes. I suspect that the character guide will be split between new ancestry content (new releases and expanded existing) as well as likely some class feats and most importantly archetypes. A ninja or samurai archetype would be plenty to cover the ideas.

samurai are too broad to be archetype

remember how awful viking are compare to just bastion

wanderer archetype that have some ronin element in it maybe

I’d sooner see something like Sovereign Blade come back as an Archetype for a bunch of draconic magic learned in Xa Hoi, or a line of Iaido feats that some martial classes can get. Gimme the option to be a Frozen Shadow over a generic ninja, IMO.

I’d sooner see something like Sovereign Blade come back as an Archetype for a bunch of draconic magic learned in Xa Hoi, or a line of Iaido feats that some martial classes can get. Gimme the option to be a Frozen Shadow over a generic ninja, IMO.

Every time I remember the Frozen Shadow exists I want it to return so I can make Sub-Zero as a character even though I know full well that 1, Frozen Shadows have no ice-themed powers at all, and 2, Sub-Zero isn't a ninja.

CorvusMask wrote:

Ya know, if we ever got shuriken improving archetype, it better be fricking accurate to how they are supposed to be used.

Mostly that shurikens are kinda like caltrops, you are supposed to throw them at enemy while you are escaping :p

That's not how caltrops (makibishi) were used though, they were prepared ahead of time to act as area denial for pursuing enemies since the point was that only the ninja who set them would know the safe spots and in the darkness they couldn't be seen easily.

Didn't mean it literally, point was that they were supposed to be used as part of retreat

keftiu wrote:

I think the issue is that Ninjas and Samurai aren’t even universally Asian - they specifically come from one nation, Japan, which has a disproportionate reach in Western pop culture.

Things get a little dicey when that leads, as it did in 1e Tian materials, to the whole continent being full of Samurai. That’s a little tacky… but quickly rises to being outright offensive when you’re making Fantasy Korean and Fantasy Filipino characters into “Samurai,” or saying that any fighting traditions of any other culture there doesn’t deserve a full class treatment while Japan apparently earns two. Tian Xia already has three Japanese nations (Jinin, Minkai, and Shokuro) - enshrining that favoritism in the mechanics, too, is not the move.

If any classes should be “paired” with the continent, it’s the upcoming Kineticist and a reworked 2e Shaman, not “Japanese Fighter” and “Japanese Rogue.”

jinin is not a japan name

so that might change in 2e

Whilst “Jinin” may or may not be a Japanese name, the two syllables are Japanese. ‘ji” can have many meanings in Japanese depending on the kanji used. But the most likely in this case is 地 which means land, earth, ground, soil. ‘nin” is almost certainly from the kanji 人 which means people or person when used in a compound word of this sort. So Jinin likely means people of the land or people of the ground which could relate to elves connection to nature or their emergence from below the ground. At least that’s one explanation, but only the writers would know the true root of the name for this country in Tian Xia.

keftiu wrote:

Any clue what that shiny metal orb crashed into the map is? Central-south, right before Valashmai really begins to fan out.

Pathfinder Society players know. ;)

(It's not metal.)

Is that... Round Mountain?!?

Happy to hear about new content for that part of Golarion.

My sole expectation for the AP is that they bring back the possession system from one of the books in Jade Regent, but way more present/developed: i felt it was criminally underused and that would be very interesting to have semi-permanent or various wanderious spirits affecting our character for good or ill.

samurai are too broad to be archetype

I don't really follow how "Samurai" is too broad for an archetype when things like Bounty Hunter, Scout, Pirate, and Vigilante are archetypes all of which are things I would consider broader than "Samurai".

25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

samurai are too broad to be archetype

I don't really follow how "Samurai" is too broad for an archetype when things like Bounty Hunter, Scout, Pirate, and Vigilante are archetypes all of which are things I would consider broader than "Samurai".

samurai start as manager for estate of capital bureaucrat

some continue to be bugyo until the end of samurai

while in sekigahara even ashigaru are samurai

3 years later tokugawa become shogun still count as samurai

from any clerk or guard to small landlord or bureaucrat to highest de facto ruler could all be samurai

it is not a actual job

Yeah it's complete nonsense that you can play a Paladin in this game too. A paladin is one of twelve specific guys.

I am pretty sure no archetype or class is going to devote page space or class budget to "bureaucracy". There are other games where this would be appropriate, but this isn't one.

But like the reason Samurai needs to be an archetype and not a class is "it's a feudal rank, having it means you're in charge of someone or something" and "being one class instead of another" should not carry with it any sort of inherent prestige. Level 1 characters are supposed to be basically nobodies who are only familiar to people in their immediate circle.

It's like you wouldn't allow someone to be an Aldori Swordlord or a Nexian Arclord at level 1. If there's some "prestigious martial rank in Minkai" that's an archetype, and probably a level 6+ one. Honestly there's no reason it couldn't be several archetypes if it merits the page space.

Yeah it's complete nonsense that you can play a Paladin in this game too. A paladin is one of twelve specific guys.

so katana is katana

naginata is naginata

but samurai is not samurai

I am pretty sure no archetype or class is going to devote page space or class budget to "bureaucracy". There are other games where this would be appropriate, but this isn't one.

But like the reason Samurai needs to be an archetype and not a class is "it's a feudal rank, having it means you're in charge of someone or something" and "being one class instead of another" should not carry with it any sort of inherent prestige. Level 1 characters are supposed to be basically nobodies who are only familiar to people in their immediate circle.

It's like you wouldn't allow someone to be an Aldori Swordlord or a Nexian Arclord at level 1. If there's some "prestigious martial rank in Minkai" that's an archetype, and probably a level 6+ one. Honestly there's no reason it couldn't be several archetypes if it merits the page space.

samurai are hardly prestigious at sengoku or edo

anyone can just show up with some weapon and claim to be descendant of someone and ask to become retainer during sengoku

shibata katsuie claim to come from shibata but there was no record of it

samurai or ronin could be background

kengo or oni could be archetype

Arachnofiend wrote:

Yeah it's complete nonsense that you can play a Paladin in this game too. A paladin is one of twelve specific guys.

so katana is katana

naginata is naginata

but samurai is not samurai

There’s no need to be willfully obtuse. Akira Kurosawa made “samurai movies” even though nobody in those is a bureaucrat, and it’s that mold of samurai being discussed here.

Much like how Druids and Paladins are miles away from their historical equivalents.

I don’t think Samurai has the legs for a class, but intentionally ignoring what people are asking for just isn’t fruitful. Everyone in this thread asking for a Samurai wants a person with a cool sword/polearm, not a provincial administrator - why not talk about what they actually mean?

25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Yeah it's complete nonsense that you can play a Paladin in this game too. A paladin is one of twelve specific guys.

so katana is katana

naginata is naginata

but samurai is not samurai

There’s no need to be willfully obtuse. Akira Kurosawa made “samurai movies” even though nobody in those is a bureaucrat, and it’s that mold of samurai being discussed here.

Much like how Druids and Paladins are miles away from their historical equivalents.

I don’t think Samurai has the legs for a class, but intentionally ignoring what people are asking for just isn’t fruitful. Everyone in this thread asking for a Samurai wants a person with a cool sword/polearm, not a provincial administrator - why not talk about what they actually mean?

does people not realize the evil bugyo stereotype common in samurai movie are also samurai

head of one of the three major side branch of tokugawa also have a long running detective tv show called mito komon

if dandy is a archetype there is hardly any reason to say aspect other than martial should be ignored

You're having a very different conversation than what everyone else is having.

I wonder if we're going to see any new special materials.

I wonder if we're going to see any new special materials.

something jade based most likely

there was that one burial jade armor

I wonder if we're going to see any new special materials.

Hopefully an expansion on Celestial Peachwood so it can be used for more than just weapons.

I am very interested in this!

PossibleCabbage wrote:

25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

samurai are too broad to be archetype

I don't really follow how "Samurai" is too broad for an archetype when things like Bounty Hunter, Scout, Pirate, and Vigilante are archetypes all of which are things I would consider broader than "Samurai".

samurai start as manager for estate of capital bureaucrat

some continue to be bugyo until the end of samurai
{. . .}
it is not a actual job

Now I've got this vision of some poor Samurai-wannabe stuck in in an utterly awful employment trap in a real estate office . . . .

Excited for the 4 part AP, the lore books much less so, but nice to see others happy for them.

Tom