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silversarcasm wrote:

For Goblins, it was mentioned in a stream that they would be getting a heritage based on the Dokkaebi!

And with the news that Oni are no longer fiends, I doubt they're gonna be a Nephilim heritage. I am partly wondering if that new vers heitage in Core 2 might be a spirit one though that could provide an Oni option...

I'm assuming that was in the most recent stream, which I haven't watched yet. ^^'

The Dokkaebi addition is awesome.

The Oni Fiend change makes a lot of sense. I'd imagine they'll be given the Spirit tag instead, in parity with Kami. That may lend credence to the idea of some sort of Spirit Ancestry with distinct Heritage options, such as the No-Face-like Spirit, Oni, and maybe potentially a Kami Heritage as well. ^^

Slightly off-topic tangent:
I'm leaning more toward a draconic Vers Heritage in Core 2.

With the few Class and Ancestry options with ties to Dragons being held off until the new Dragons drop in Monster Core, it seems like an appropriate time to introduce a "half-dragon" Heritage.

Coincidently, it would be appropriate with the release of the Tian-Xia books, given the regularity with which Imperial Dragons interact with the people of the Dragon Empires. It's extraneous at best but definitely implied that Dragons mate with other creatures. So it's possible there are quite a few Tian (and likely other people) of draconic descent; maybe enough be Half-Dragons.

But that's neither here nor there.
----

I simply can't wait for these two books to finally drop. The need I have to play as a Tanuki is immense.


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Not that anyone asked, but here's a list of Ancestry/Heritage related options that have been revealed thus far. Included a brief description and possible real-world inspiration, if only to give any idea of what they are and the diversity of real-world cultures being represented.

Confirmed Content:

Ancestry -
- Samsaran (People who constantly reincarnate until they achieve enlightnment. Inspired by the the cycle of existence relating to Samsara of Indian religions)
- Tanuki (Racoon dog-like people with a penchant for trickery. Inspired by Japanese myth)
- Wayang (Tenebrous people who migrated from the Netherworld/Shadow Plane in ages past. Inspired by Indonesian shadow-puppetry)
+ Three others

Heritage -
- Bakuwa Lizardfolk/Iruxi (Likely the crocodile-like Lizardfolk that have been shown. Hard to say what they are inspired from atm. I would guess possibly Bakunawa of Filipino myth, given the similarities in name and previously described as being related to eclipses; but very well could be a mix of myths and folklore from various cultures within Asia)
- Gandharva Sprite (Described as bird-like. Likely inspired by the Gandharva present in several real-world cultures and religions, namely Indian, who are described as being bird-like or horse-like)
- Peachchild Leshy (Likely inspired by Japanese folklore relating to Momotaro, a child born of a peach floated down a river; as well as maybe Chinese myths relating to the immortality granting peaches and peaches trees)
- Tsukumogami Poppet (Inspired by Japanese myth relating to objects gaining sentience and becoming Yokai/Kami after 100 years. Incidentally, they'll likely be the first time a Kami has ever been playable)

These are some inferences or assumptions I have given some info or things I feel are obvious, given the location.

AKA, I'm guessing here:

I expect the likes of Kistune, Nagaji, & Tengu are almost guaranteed to be expanded. Anadi, Lyashtaki Catfolk/Amurrun, Ratfolk/Ysoki, Tripkee(sp?)/Grippli, & Vanara I think have a high possibility of expansion as well. To a lesser degree, Jinin Elves, Tian Humans (such as the new Tian-Yae previously mentioned), Kaoling Hobgoblins, & Kobolds could see some additions, more lore-wise than mechanical; Kobolds maybe being the exception. Could possibly see Goblins receive a Heritage in the form of Kijimuna; Nephilim recieve Lineage options, namely Hungerseed/Oni-Spawn Cambion/Tiefling, but perhaps something for Empyrean/Aasimar as well. All Empyrean Lineages are covered, so more likely to see general Ancestry Feats added, unless they introduce a new Celestial (fingers crossed, I'd like to see something like the Tennin with their hagoromo). Small possibly to see additional Athamaru/Locathah and perhaps Awakened Animal related stuff, given the formers presence in Xidao and I can see the latter being found in the Forest of Spirits. Geniekin, partic Ardande and Talos could see some lore I think, but id be surprsied to see anything mechanical. If any of these happen, I'm sure mechanical options will be in the Chatacter Guide, with plenty of lore as well, while those people lacking in crunch will be largely confined to the World Guide.

Additionally, my guesses for the new Ancestries I've mentioned before. But, I 100% foresee Kappa being added. Another could be Hitotsume and/or Ippondatara, one-eyed creatures from Japanese myth. Also could see non-Undead Spirits as a collective Ancestry, similiar to Sprites with, what I refer to as, Distinct Heritages; such as Kaonashi, aka No-Face (not a weird inclusion, as there are plenty of creatures from pop-culture in TTRPGs). I based these mostly on the cover and my knowledge of Japanese myth and folklore; but I'd honestly prefer if the last three were not all Japanese creatures. But I don't know much outside of it. I'm slightly familiar with Chinese and Korean myth, but not enough to even begin to think of decent Ancestry possibilities. I'd love to hear anyones suggestions on other cultures. That said, I could see Jorogumo as a possibility as well, if they receive any lore in regards to not being only evil. I'd love to see playable Kami, but I don't foresee that at all. And of course, there's the possibility of something completely new to Pathfinder altogether; which I want to say has been stated to be the case for one of the remaining three.

Should be noted, I in no way think ALL of these will be featured in either book. Simply the options I believe make sense to be included.

Posting this for no other reason than to promote discussion. I'd love to hear anyone else's ideas. ^^


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The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Ly'ualdre wrote:
The-Magic-Sword wrote:
I do have a hope for Oni based Nephilim lineage, its not exactly essential for my purposes since its not like other options don't work ok, but Oni play a pretty big role in my setting so itd be cool to have something dedicated in that slot. A lot of the other stuff we have revealed so far already sounds amazing.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

Most definitely a spoiler:
I'm referring to the new Fiends with ties to Sangpotshi and the cycle of reincarnation: the Nindoru from Season of Ghosts.

Personally, I doubt we'll see a Linage for them any time soon. But they have become my favorite Fiend. Their design and lore is awesome to me. Love em.


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The-Magic-Sword wrote:
I do have a hope for Oni based Nephilim lineage, its not exactly essential for my purposes since its not like other options don't work ok, but Oni play a pretty big role in my setting so itd be cool to have something dedicated in that slot. A lot of the other stuff we have revealed so far already sounds amazing.

Possible spoiler for a thing:

I'd be interested to see if we get a Lineage for our newest Fiendish friends in SoG. I doubt it, but I'd love to see it.


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Guessing time! Had some random ideas for the remaining three Ancestries. These are mostly based on what appears on the cover.

First is the only one I'm pretty certain about: Kappa. Despite their mischievous behavior, Pathfinder Kappa aren't inherently malicious and even civil in some cases. Seems like a likely candidate for a "misunderstood" group of people.

Second one I'm guessing are either Hitotsume and/or Ippondatara. The one-eyed creature seems more reminiscent to the latter, but I could see the former being the general "family" of people, with Ippondatara being a specific Heritage, along with the likes of Hitotsume-kozo, Hitotsume-nyudo, and maybe other similiar one-eyed creatures.

Third one I think could be a Yurei, which were a specific creature in PF1. May go by a different name, like Borei or Shiryo, but I'm thinking they could be the various kinds of spirits of the dead, maybe lacking the Undead trait, similiar to Phantoms or nature spirits. This may have some overlap with the Ghost Archetype, which may be a problem, but overlap hasn't generally been an issue before. Along with this, I think the Kaonashi, or No-Face, like spirit could be either the main Ancestry or a Heritage option here.

Bonus could be an general Obake or Yokai Ancestry that includes the later two ideas, along with other creatures that fall into the Yokai category, but aren't separate enough to be their own thing, like Kappa. This could allow for some distinct Heritage options, spimiliar to how Sprites work, with each representing a specific kind of creature.

Lastly, I think the apparent Oni on the cover likely represents the Hunderseed, or Oni-spawn, Nephilim (Cambion/Tiefling) lineage. As fun as a full Oni would be, I don't see Paizo pushing them out as playable, at least not yet anyways. I think their is room for it, given how BattleZoo handled them.


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Laclale♪ wrote:
Cyrad wrote:

Turtle person?

Will there finally be a tortoise ancestry?

But kappa is not in tien-xia character guide, and not race in 1e

There's still time! There are still three unrevealed (if we dont count Tsukumogami), which I believe they said were all new to Pathfinder. Given that Kappa are on the cover, I'm hoping they make the jump to being playable. ^^

Super excited for this, and any AP really. I haven't had a group to play with in forever, but I love reading through them, especially the lore and bestiary bits.


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I think the biggest limiting factor here is really just ones imagination. Tabletop at its core is all about creating compelling stories that enable opportunities for a PC to shine, no matter their choices. Out of 100 different games that one may participate in within their lifetime, if I'm unable to develop a story or two that allows a PC to engage in the fantasy an Exemplar might offer, I'd say that's more on either my preference or inability to not tell those stories, and not the fault of the Class for existing.

It might not be for everyone, but we have plenty of accessible options that can be utilized at any table. I for one welcome the addition and hopeful to see maybe one more Rare Class within PF2s lifespan.

I'm also certain that whatever Aventure Path or Modules that come out during the year War of Immortals comes out will offer plenty of narrative to include the Class in it. Premade adventures aren't everyone's cup of tea though.


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Thinking about it, I wonder how much of an issue the possible "I'm the protagonist" will be in actual play. Don't get me wrong, it'll definitely be an issue at some tables. But, when I put actual thought into it, there is plenty of media where those who are seem to be protags take a bit of a back seat to another character, even if they are divine in nature. Best example I think would be Moana. Granted, I haven't seen the movie myself yet (im weird abojt shows and movies), but Moana is clearly the main character, while Māui is more a deuteragonist.

The Exampler being Rare, it would defiantly merit a session zero, or at least a conversation with the GM in most cases. It would take some work on the GMs part to nip it in the bud then, with a "you are in a party" talk, as well as potentially reeling the PC in at the table if it becomes they becomes too disruptive to the game. But, it maybe not be as big an issues as many think. 100% will be one at a lot of tables; but I'd say it is manageable.

That said, I forsee many a table having to deal with a likely comical "You're welcome" situation every game. Lol


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Bare feets is a chongus, and I love it. More body type representation ftw.

Definitely giving me Māui vibes, for sure.


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Temperans wrote:
Ly'ualdre wrote:

Okay. Random spark of divine inspiration. Slightly off topic, so I'll spoil it. Buuuuut:

** spoiler omitted **...

Godling only has two syllables and 2 vowels. The classes will have 3 syllables and 3 vowels.

Also Godlings are already a thing in Golarions. Nivi Rhombodazzle is a godling, who found out after trading a gem with Torag.

For that matter the ways to get mythic are: Artifact, Fated, Godling, Granted, and Passed On.

Wasn't an idea for the Classes. Was just spitballing something that came to mind as an alternative to Demigod as a Class. So one could possibly be a Godling Anadi "Fateweaver" (to cite the Raven Black) who was Granted their status from Nana Anadi. Or a Godling Nephilim/Tiefling Goblin "Commander" who Usurped their might from Deskari when they dealt the killing blow to him.

Or, to be absolutely crazy, a Godling Outworlder Dungeon Dragon Scion Leshy "Nipplemancer" who inherited their abilities on account of their glourious nipples, when they died and was reincarnated to a magical land.

Do... do Leshy have nipples? Would they gain them? So many questions.


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Okay. Random spark of divine inspiration. Slightly off topic, so I'll spoil it. Buuuuut:

The Godling:
What if this theoretical Demigod idea was done similarly to how Roll For Combat handled with their Dungeon and Outworldler Ancestries (Psuedo-Ancestry really for the latter, I feel). If you aren't aware, these options came from their Year of Momsters/April Fool's updates. In short, your Ancestry is maybe called Godling, a creature with a spark of divinity granted by a plethora of reasons. Child/ancestor of Deity, stolen/granted power, etc. Whatever the reason. From there, similiar to Dungeon and Outworlder, you physically play as any another Ancestry, with GM restriction. Dungeons grant an Avatar, while Otherworlders are simply people from other worlds, dimension, realities that are usually Human, but can be whatever Ancestry via narratives likes reincarnation, summoning, or its simply who you were prior (heavy isekei inspiration). From there, your granted access to special Backgrounds (which are technically optional) that determine special abilities you can get down the line. Outworlders get these, which sets their narrative of how they got there, as well as certain abilities later. These abilities come in the form of what I'll call Aspects. These Aspects world similarly to how Outworlder Cheats work, special abilities granted various abilities based around a tiered system, which determines how powerful or disruptive to gameplay they are. So, let's say you have things like Birthright, Hero-God, Usurper, Favored, etc; each setting your narrative of how you came to be and also granting you some low-tiered abilities off the bat. But, rather than just gaining later abilities outright, they are granted by the GM after you've undertaken something I'll call Labours. Dungeon PCs have the ability to enter their own interdimension dungeon space with their allies in an effort to complete the various floors within. When they complete these floors, they and the party can gain various rewards in the form of things like items, relic progression, or abilities/archetypes. So, with every Labour a Godling performs, determined by the GM, they gain a new Aspect, either determined by the GM or picked by the PC. These Aspects could be general to everyone, as well as based on your particular Background or even Class. One could even power them up to a higher tier later, if allowed or wanted. Highly complex, but it seems super fun. You retain your ability to choose an Ancestry, Background, or Class, while gaining divine might along the way in a way that is progressive and rewarding. Obviously Rare.

Thank you for coming to my God Talk.


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I'm throwing my name it the hat for something that gives more mechanical use to philosophies and other non-theist faiths. Given the emphasis on divinity, I doubt it. Maybe the remaster will improve this outright. But that's just my personal want for the future. I get that something like Sangpotshi and the Whispering Way don't have divine backing. But its odd to me that they wouldn't develop or utilize secret spells or similiar abilities that a Cleric gains through deific worship. I'd call it Disciple or something. Theoretically could create things like an Animist, Spiritualist, Shaman, Godcaller, etc. via interaction with the various faiths & philosophies already present in-game. This may go against the whole "not in PF1" bit; so I'd wager it is unlikely.

My other want is a Commander Class, whose emphasis is on battlefield control and buffing/nerfing ally and enemy alike. Maybe make them slightly squisher to other martial, just to introduce a sort of "protect the king" style of gameplay. Don't know how they could make this different from say Marshal. But yea.

These are my hopes, as opposed to guesses.


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Verzen wrote:

The big bulky guy is known as an Ascendant. These are not demigods. What they are, are people who have obtained a fragment of a gods power. They are similar to clerics in that way. Each ascendant uses a fraction of the gods power rather than becoming a god themselves.

They will not have spells.

Gives me Favored Soul vibes, which I'm down for. Fueled mostly by nostalgia.


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Rarity is mutable. One thing Uncommon or Rare across the world may be Common elsewhere; like the aforementioned Gunslinger and Inventor in a place like Alkenstar.

On the flip side, something Common in one area is Uncommon or Rare everywhere else. Like say the various Tian Ancestries. Tengu and Kitsune are likely plentiful in Tian-Xia, but obviously Uncommon everywhere else.

So, I could see something like the Samsaran being Rare in the wider Golarion, but Uncommon in the whole of Tian-Xia and Common in the mountains of Zi Ha.

A theoretical Demigod Class, assuming it is Rare due to lore or location reasons, may be be Common in a place like Iblydos.

The traits are there to set a precedence for GMs, but can otherwise be added or removed to tailor the game as needed. More suggestions than hard rules. Add or subtract them as fits your game.


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Tank maybe?

Honestly, I'm not opposed to the idea. But I do personally feel the concept should call for a more robust system that's more universally applicable than a the class system. Not to say classes aren't universal, but something more akin to the mythic paths from 1e seems more in-line and variable to the concept of demigods imo. That's my personal preference on how I'd like it done, but I'll take whatever Paizo gives us. They rarely disappoint me with class design, so im sure they couldnc construct a reasonable concept behind the idea.

For me, it's more curious that everyone is only seeing this as a potential martial class than something more customizable. I understand where it's coming from, but there is plenty of room for demigods of other prowess. Magic, skill, etc. That would hold my interest more.


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Not sure if this has been brought up, but Michael Sayre dropped one last hint a few days ago saying that neither class has been featured in Starfinder either.

Do with this as you may.
*continues to lurk*


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Throwing in my random desire to see Ipotanes/Hippotaynes and, to a lesser extent, Ichthyocentaurs as possibilities somehow, some way, in the future. Ipotanes could be possible as a Centaur Heritage, or hand waved as an Awakened Horse. Ichthyocentaur could also work as Heritage or distinct Ancestry sometime later (maybe an eventual High Seas book).

In fact, just give me all the probable Centaur possibilities. Onocentaur. Pterocentaur. Unicentaur. Alacentaur. The theoretical, yet unheard of Mulecentaur.

To be fair, you could possibly handwave most of these through some combination of Centaur + Versatile Heritage. Centaur + Tiefling/Nephilim could be a decendant of a Nightmare, for example.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:

If they are the same (which I personally suspect, but don't know for sure) then I seriously doubt that you're going to lose the Lion Fish Athamaru. It's just that Grefu doesn't happen to be from Tian Xia, and might have a different heritage, and thus looks different. Paizo does that kind of thing all the time with ancestries.

As for the name... locathath have deep history in D&D, and I'm not aware of them showing up in any pre-D&D myth or legend. As such, a name change is pretty much mandatory. Unless there's mythical background that I'm not aware of, you're not getting locathath that are called locathath out of Paizo ever again. Too high a price for basically no payoff.

Didn't consider the idea that the name was coined by Wizards. As long as I get to play a Liony Fish, the name doesn't really matter to me. If that is the case, which I'm leaning more towards yes now, I have to reconsider one of my guesses for the remaining Tian-Xia Ancestries.


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I am very excited for any Ancestry added to the mix, and these all seem like great choices.

I'm hoping the Athamaru are in addition to Locathah, rather than a replacement or name change. The more aquatic Ancestries we have up front means more choices down the line. I'd also hate to potentially lose Paizo's take on the latter, which seem to be based on Lion Fish (which ties into my own headcanon that Xidao may be based loosely on the underwater city of Shi Cheng in China's Qiandao Lake, which is also known as "Lion City"). The Athamaru seem more reminiscent to maybe Grouper me thinks.

Minotaur are the biggest draw here for me. But I'm just as excited and interested in the rest. Especially the Surki.


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THIS IS A TANUKI APPRECIATION POST!!

My wish have been granted by the Celestial Dragon!

Hyped beyond all measure. Tian Xia is my favorite region. I cannot wait to further explore it!


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Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
Drow and aquatic elves

Gods I hope Aquatic Elves are given an Endonym. I really appreciate the use of Ancestral/Linguistic names used by the various people of Golarion. It would be really lame if they were simply related to Aquatic Elves and not given their own internal name for themselves.


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For those interested, the results for the Mimic's true form poll for Year of Monster were sent out; I won by a landslide. Lol.

They are going to send that concept to artists and have them put their own design spins on it. Then I believe hold another poll with those to decide on the final look.


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BTW, if anyone is interested, the Year of Monsters is doing a survey right now to decide what a Mimics natural form looks like. I am personally pretty partial to I myself, but I liked D and H as well.


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I have been saying for a while that the presence of all three of those creatures on Kortos makes for a compelling Ancestry argument; and would have been a great place to stick Stheno, given the Greek roots. Alas, that didn't happen. But, I still hold hope for them all being options at some point. We still have Iblydos after all. Harpies, Centaur, and Medusa (and likely Stheno) are said to have originated there.


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Thanks. Now I want to have a Weresnail follow the party for eternity; and if they ever get caught, they die.


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Random thought, now that it has been solved, partially it seems: what if the random artifacts seen on some of the pages, like the shoulder of Korakai, are some invisible creature on perceivable with one strong of mind? The "observing with the mind" gave me the idea. Other than that, I've got nothing.


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VestOfHolding wrote:

With all the lost pages solved so far, this is the all the text put together with assumed grammar:

Lost Pages wrote:

"The files have to be connected in some way. Every question has an answer worth finding. Are there more out there? Over years of observing with the mind.... just one more conspiracy.

Some sort of connection with a... in that space within my memories...evil and malevolence happily feast...., leaving the mortal at a loss.... an ancient being of nightmare. To destroy... I can't. I must continue hiding in Absalom..."

This gives me the ultimate Darkest Dungeon vibes and I am so here for it.


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I am absolutely over the moon we made it to the Eldarap. I simply cannot wait to hear the full thing. The preview was great!!

Can't wait to add all these Ancestries to my table! Looking forward to the next KS!!


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Indeed. Luckily, most Traits have little mechanical impact on creatures. I think it would be fair and safe to throw Shadow on just about anything and simply say that particular creature hails from the Shadow Plane.

If Betobeto-san effectively means Mr.StickySticky; would a Shadow native to the Shadow Plane be called Kagekage-san?
As a note, this is a joke.


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keftiu wrote:
Seems like only Subscribers are getting them?

Possibly. But seems selective atm. I didn't get one, for instance. Given the page numbers this may have more to do with each individual getting a certain page at a certain time. But who knows.

EDIT: I stand corrected. I now have page 13. Still, may be tied to timing. I've been checking since the posts were made.

EDIT EDIT: Gonna throw a screenshot of page 13 on EldritchDream's Twitter post if anyone wants to see it. They are trying to consolidate information there. I couldn't figure out which page it corresponded to. I had some ideas, but they don't seem to be correct.


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Betobeto-san are created when travelers pass through the Shadow and Material Plane, thereby being created of the same metaphysical material the Shadow Plane is made from.

Skull Fairies arise as a result of those who die from expose to the energies of the Shadow Plane. This suggests that, most of the time, their inception is likely going to be on the Plane itself. But, for those that maybe die elsewhere, possibly near a Planar Rift, the energies of the Shadow Plane still factor into their creation.

Alapolo's are admittedly the odd one out here, since nothing expressly states that orongate or are tied to the Shadow Plane. They are, however, described as "Fey creatures with a supernatural tie to shadows", which is still a lot more than what Shadows themselves have. But given the fact they have the Shadow Trait, it can be infered they somehow have ties to the Plane.

The other two make reference to the Shadow Plane in their sidebars.

EDIT: Shadows are named for the fact that they look and act like an actual Shadow. According to Undead Revisited, stating "Shadows are incorporeal undead, distorted like their namesakes". Says to me they were named for their similarities, not because they are actual shadows.


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The Shadow Trait is applied to those creatures who are themselves native to the Plane itself.

Shadows don't originate from the Shadow Plane, they are simply shadow-like Undead creatures. They can exist within then Plane, thanks to their Undead nature and the Planes proxim to the Nagative Energy Plane; which can result in Greater Shadows.


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Already done! Despite all complaints from my pocketbook. ^^'

EDIT: God's I hope we make that Eldamon rap goal. I will gladly give every other stretch goal for it. <3


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
Ly'ualdre wrote:
Aranea are based on Arachne of Greek myth, while Anadi are based on the the goddess Anansi of Akan folklore.
Quick nit - I'd thought Anansi was male?

You are correct. I use certain words so often on my phone that it defaults to them at times. Which is why I usually try to check my posts beforehand, which I didn't do here. Lol


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Mythical creatures are kind of supposed to go against our common sensibilities. I probably wouldn't do much more than giving Centaur elongated ears or maybe equine-esque faces (which I'm personally less inclined to do, given my disdain for the new Adlet faces). At a certain point, when making changes, you have to ask yourself is this a Centaur or an entirely different creature? Given the myriad of cultures and myths involving similiar creatures, it is a fine line I think. At which point, why not just have both?

---

I think Aranea and Anadi have plenty differences, but the biggest one here is their inspiration. Aranea are based on Arachne of Greek myth, while Anadi are based on the the god Anansi of Akan folklore. In this case, Anadi make more sense as natives to the Expanse than Aranea do; even though they likely also live there. It's maybe important to consider what makes them different rather than what makes them similiar. They are two different people; just as the Ikeshti, Iruxi, and Xulgath are, even though they are all reptilian-like.


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I think they key words there are player expectation and the desire of the developers. To be frank, the ideas of players are not always made with balance in mind, and sometimes the belief that their wants supercede those of the people making the game. Not suggesting this is you or anyone in particular, mind you, it is a blanket statment. And again, if the designers themselves decided, say, to not make the Psychic a Wisdom based class, that is their right to do so. There isn't some grand scheme here to deny players access to something they hope to see. But it will come at the time the designers deign to make it so. Any theory that they are doing anything less or more than that is simply that, a theory, devised by individuals who see the lack of something as more than what it is. Pretty much everything we have seen released thus far has followed a pattern and several themes. When a theme is conducive to a Wisdom based Clsss, then they'll do it. The issue, imo, is a sense of instant gratification and the desire to have one's cake and to eat it. These things take time. Not every foreseeable option is going to come all at once. I think people just need to take a step back and actual consider the amount of time and effort actually goes into designing a balanced game.

If anyone is unhappy with thw hard work that the people at Paizo do for us daily, I suggest and challenge them to make the efforts themselves. Infinite was made for that very reason. Not saying that is a solution; but maybe those who are wholly unsatisfied with the direction Paizo is currently going can grasp an understanding of the kinds of challenges the team goes through to bring satisfying content.


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It has been recently stated by Mark Seifter (iirc) that they aren't avoiding Wisdom as a key stat. When they push out a class that the team feels is appropriate to use Wisdom, they will. Fans might think/want certain existing classes to be Wis, but the team did not share the sentiment.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
The reason giving a wizard a sword doesn't make a magus is because the magus is associated with spellstrike. I don't think the Inquisitor has anything that spectacular that hasn't already been given to someone else.

This is kind of ignoring the fact that several if not all the classes got a fresh coat of paint in some way. I don't understand the idea that anything coming from 1e is going to be represented as it was.

Judgment wasn't gutted by anything we have. Also, given how Warpriest was handled, they could reasonably justify pulling from its 1e iteration for inspiration. Some take on Sacred Weapon, Sacred Armor, and Fervor work well imo; being able to use any weapon or armor to enact you Deities will, and even heal through sheer will of faith. And even if these aren't used, new mechanics can always be developed or altered, as they have almost every class.
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I also don't get the argument that an Inquistor isn't going to fit every deity. Warpriests don't fit Deities like Korada, whose dogma pushes for peace, kindness, and forgiveness. He is incredibly skilled at martial arts, but abhors violence. Likewise, there are a few of Deities I've seen whose teachings hardly fit certain Champion Causes, despite being the correct alignment to take them. Mother Vulture is a good example imo, whose edicts state that one must kill without mercy if it benefits your community. That doesn't really suggest any flexibility there, and yet her followers can be Redeemers, which kind of seems like conflicting Tenets if tour granting an enemy mercy to redeem their ways.

Point being, some poor pairings between a Deity and what an Inquisitor is meant to do is hardly reason to simply not do it.
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I also kind of feel like the argument of "hunt enemies of faith" is instantly crossing a line in a world with defined and very real forms of evil is moot. Shouldn't slay those followers of Rovagug and the Qlippoth it summoned because it gives me bad feels. I get being uncomfortable with the idea of going around and putting anyone not of your faith to the sword, but that defiently is not what is happening in this instance. Inquisitors of Gozreh and Abadar aren't going to be at each others necks over the progress of nature and civilization, Calistrians aren't going around killing Caydenites because she finds him annoying, and Ironians are trying to beat down every Iomedaean, Caydenite, or Norgorberite because Irori feels their apotheosis was undeserved. No one here is placing innocent people in stockade or burning accused witches at the stake. And the argument that someone, somewhere, is is very likely going to not be at your table might do it is hardly a reason to punish others for it.


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keftiu wrote:
Snip

^ This ^

With the Thaumaturge and Ranger, frankly I can do without the monster hunter aspects of it. Can just MC into either one of those two.

If they instead replaced it with more innovative or thematically appropriate abilities, I'd much prefer they do that. After all, almost every Clsss that has made the jump is different from their 1e counterpart in some way. It doesn't, and shouldn't, simply be a rehash of the exact mechanics of a 1e Inquisitor.


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If it has tools to readily available to regain Focus Points on a regular, as the Psychic does (albeit, at a limited pace), that could solve that. The idea I had in my head at one point was that Ninja were the masters of refocus and focus spells; being able to readily regain focus points within a given limit. Start them with 2 points like the Psychic, have them regain both points if used only for their focus spells, as the Psychic does if only using amps. Allow them Feats that enable regaining focus points through Actions and Reactions. Heck, give them abilities tied to regaining focus if they land a crit, or simply not having to spend the point if the ability used is a crit. There are plenty of ways around that, if that ends up being the focus of the class.

As far as does it need to be sneaky? No. But why wouldn't you make it sneaky? It's a Ninja.

I guess my thing is, why can't it be both? Why deny a thematically viable idea for little reason? It could easily have a traditional Ninja class path and the more mystical path.

If it did this, what are your ideas for how a traditional, historically accurate Ninja would function, that is in no way similiar to the Rogue or Assassin? Whether it be a Class, Archetype, of Racket for the Rogue.

EDIT: Another idea, make it similiar to the Kineticist. Having magical abilities that don't rely on Focus Points or Spell Slots, but Action Economy.


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I hardly see how developing a class centered around what would essentially be ki focus spells or spell-like abilities as needing to rebalance the system around.


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I suppose the Cleric and Champion do nothing in the name of their church or deity then?

There are also literally mechanics in the game that involve interacting or speaking to one's deity. From spells to Divine Intercession. Iirc, there is literally and adventure coming out that will involve having tea or lunch with a deity at some point (I may be misremembering here).

Golarion's Deities are hardly hands off. They certainly aren't at everyone's beck and call. But given that they aren't in any way omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient, they heavily rely on their mortal followers to enact their will.

And if Desna needs someone to hunt down followers of Ghlaunder, who better to do that than an Inquisitor?


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There was a literal Hulk Vigilante with the Brute Archetype as well.

But agreed. Pathfinder specifically plays with anime tropes more than many other systems of similiar theme.

A magical Ninja in a fantasy game seems hardly a stretch. I'm all for the sneaky stabby. But in what way mechanical would it be any different from a Rogue if nothing is innovative on?


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It seems a bit difficult to present something historically accurate on a subject that has more legends and folklore centered around it than actual historical record.

In that regard, there are plenty legends and folklore, and even historically written manuals, that ascribe Ninja as having mystical abilities. So, there is some precedence for it. Much of many Asian cultures and legends are steeped in mysticism.

That would be the more direction I'd prefer it to go. Weather as a full Class or Archetype. It gives it more of an identity imo

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I'm particularly interested in exploring the Shaguang Desert and flying city of Yjae; as well the Tian-Yae that call it home. They seem to possibly be inspired by those African people who, such as the Siddi and Kaffir (not to be confused with the racial slur used in South Africa). Mostly an assumption on my part, but their relation as decendants of the Shory, and the relation of the Siddi and Kaffir as decendants of the Bantu and Zanj people (who may have inspired the Bekyar and Zenj to a degree) leads me to believe that may be where the inspiration was drawn.

I would also love to see a bit of info on the Tian-Sing and their relation to the Taumata and Sarusan.

Overall, I just want it all. D:


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I am of the opinion that if something has the capability of filling out its own niche, it should. In that regard, thematically Inquisitor is different enough to merit a second look at, even though Thaumaturge is similiar.

Kind of comes back to the oft repeated ideas that certain Classes we now have weren't distinct or compelling enough to be their own thing. And Paizo has proven that they can be if they want them to. Some new and innovating mechanics to make an Inquisitor unique is all it needs.


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Laclale♪ wrote:
Ly'ualdre wrote:
I had an idea for a Time-Displaced Lineage. I was kind of surprised it wasn't an option, given the time stuff in the book.
For this part... isn't time traveller background enough for you?

I mean, sure. But the Discarded Duplicate didn't stop them from making the Reflection Heritage. So I don't see why we can't have both :D

Pre-existing options should never be a disqualifier for similiar, yet differently executed ideas. We wouldn't have many of the cool and amazing options in the system if they did.

We have the Returned, Revenant, and Reborn Soul Backgrounds, each about returning to life after death. But they all have distinct stories and mechanics tied to them, making each unique.

Of course, if they ultimately don't do something like a Time-Displaced Reflection, then there are options to still use to make it work. Time Traveller Background with the Chronoskimmer Archetype is perfect.


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David knott 242 wrote:


I suspect that the low populations of the more inhabitable regions more than make up for the high populations of the less inhabitable regions.

Hmm. I'd likely attribute this to adventurers and travlers maybe? Many people seem to make their living roaming from place to place. Not as big a phenomenon irl. So I'd think bigger societies have smaller populations than our own major cities due to the fact that fewer people settle down? Then, in the case of less inhabitable places, they probably focus more of community and survival, so they don't have as many people coming to and fro? Like, if maybe 1 out of every 1000 people choose to become an adventurer, places like Unaimo probably see one every year or so compared to say the 300 or more that leave Absolom to make their place in the wider world?

Just an idea. Making some assumptions with little data to actually back it. ?

EDIT: Back on topic, I'm hoping Geb and Alkenstar/Mana Wastes get just as much info as Jalmeray and Nex. We did get some information on both recently, between Book of the Dead and Outlaws of Alkenstar. I wonder if each section will give options that fit into that nation or region. Like, maybe a new Undead Archetype in Geb or a Mutant Archetype/Heritage for the Mana Wastes.


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The topic becomes rather interesting when you compare the Crown of the World to our own Antarctica.

Online sources suggest that Antarcticas population of researchers numbers about 5000 at its peak.

With 8 known nations and 3 independent settlements, combined with things like magic and the biological processes of some Ancestries; the Crown likey has anywhere from 7000 to even 10 thousand people living within it, as permanent residents. The city of Unaimo alone has a population of over 1000. Ul-Angorn and Iqaliat combined brings the total to roughly 1853; almost double Antarcticas winter population of roughly 1000.
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Almost makes me want to go on the Wiki and make a list of every settlement and their known population, just to try and get a rough total of what Golarion's total population is.

Almost... ^^'


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Ed Reppert wrote:
The essence of a playable ancestry, it seems to me, is that it must be sentient. The thing that really .. bothers is too strong, but I can't think of a better word... me about Golarion is that given humanity's history on Earth, I have to wonder if one planet can support so many and so different sentients. I get "willing suspension of disbelief" but IMO you can only take that so far.

Our own planet has approximately 7.9 billion people on it. General consensus today is that the plenty can support 10 billion, while some scientists back in the 16th century believed 13 billion was possible.

If we assume Golarion's population matches our own, and they say 50 to 60 percent of that population is Human, that still leaves 4 to 3.2 billion of every of intelligent Ancestries that makes up the world. That is a considerable population.

Golarion has a leg up on our own Earth. At some point, we are very likely to run out of resources. Between Deities, magic, and other Planes; I don't think Golarion is likely to ever truly be pressed for survival where needs are concerned. So, I'd wager it could probably support maybe even twice as many people than our own planet could. :D


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
Ly'ualdre wrote:
BONUS - Petitioners. For a while, I've had this desire to see them made playable. The Heritage system makes it immediately possible to take the base Ancestry and have one choose from the plethora of planar souls living through their afterlife. Each of the Elemental Planes have an Elemental Pneuma. They could make for some pretty interesting storytelling. .
I like this idea.

Thanks. I think it could make for some really different story opportunities, especially depending on the kind of Petitioner. Like, maybe you one of Abaddon's Hunted. Now tou have a campaign that is all about surviving one of the most dangerous place in the Multiverse. Or being one of the Damned and trying to excape from Hell.

There are a few that don't reeeeally work, like the Abyss Larvae and maybe the Maelstrom's Shapeless. But the idea of playing out a characters afterlife seems fun.

And, if you include something like BattleZoo, you can then do a followup adventure where you completed your transformation into a Demon or Oni, or what ever layer options they may make.

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