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The vile Antipaladin rears its terrible head once more. Blargh.


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Cyrad wrote:

Hoping the ifrit heritage will be compatible with the future kitsune ancestry.

That way, we can play real fire foxes!

I'm pretty sure Geniekin (Ifrit, Undine, Oread, Sylph, & Suli) will be a heritage option, in the same way the heritages being introduced in APG. So, they are likely to be applicable to all ancestries.


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The background doesn't necessarily make them Tiefling Leshy tho8gh. But again, I'm certain Paizo figured out a reasonable ingame lore reason as to why things like Tiefling Leshy and similar creatures exist. So I wouldn't worry about it too much.

The more important issue here is the blatant lack on Swinefolk in fantasy settings nowadays! D:<
I desire the (P)Orcs of old! Give me the pig people Paizo!!


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CorvusMask wrote:
On side note, I hope that heritages don't require more achievement points in PFS. Because I realized I might want to use certain Leshy character Background from PFS scenario for Leshy Tiefling character xD

That's assuming Leshy can take any of these variable Heritages. Given the nature of their birth, being created by Druids by infusing nature spirits into a material body; I wonder if their can take any Planar Scion options. Theroetically, I suppose one could argue the possibility of infusing Fiendish, Celestial, and Monitor spirits or essence from an Immortal or their corresponding Planes. But, I think that would likely force an alignment, as the Planes and their inhabitants tend to be alignment locked. And Changeling and Dhampir just seems very out of the question as well, being physical beings rather than spiritual, relying on genetic birth.

But maybe Paizo has thought up an elegant solution to this.


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CorvusMask wrote:


(The new ancestry was Shoony btw :D Pug ancestry!)

Even better! Forgot they were sneakily hinted at. Wing-ed Aasimar Pupper!!


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Fun fact: Had the random desire to do some math. If one includes the 6 Ancestries presented in the Core Rulebook, the 3 added in the Character Guide, the eminent new Ancestry in the next act of Extinction Curse (confirmed in the "Next Month" section of Legacy of the Lost God act; which I presume will be Troglodytes), and the 5 Ancestries coming with the APG, and taking the 5 new Heritages being added as well; there will be a total of 75 distinct people that are playable in Second Edition since launch. This is of course not including the variable Heritages each Ancestry has, which denotes things like culture, ethnicity, nationality, and the like; nor is this including the likely "Sub-Heritages" we may see from options like Aasimar and Tiefling (such as Oni-spawn Tiefling and Agathion-blooded Aasimar). This number is assuming that options like Leshy can be Duskwalkers and Changelings. Given the nature of their birth, I'm not sure that is technically possible. But I digress.

This. This is why I love Pathfinder. The sheer multitude of options and routes one can take to create something theoretically original in this game is outright phenomenal. I saw a video recently where a guy took nearly every conceivable option within the Core Rulebook alone and came up with a ludicrous number. Not all of these choices are huge, but they are enough to create a unique story amongst the characters created. It's amazing.


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RiverMesa wrote:
...EDIT: Well okay immediately after saying that I spotted a ruffian on the list. Still, most of the names seem to avoid trying to correlate with what already exists for PC class/class path names.

There's also the Mastermind, which indo believe is more or less believed to be a Racket for the Rogue in the APG. But still, it isn't the name inclusion itself that leads me to this belief, but the sidebar, which solidifies the idea in my head.

The Raven Black wrote:

Antipaladin has too long of a history in the game to ever change.

Though I agree that Ravager or Destroyer would be a great fit for CE, with Tyrant for LE and Terror for NE.

I mean ya, but even Wizards moved away with the term briefly with the Blackguard. And for a system that's trying so hard to separate itself from its predecessor, why keep such a silly name?

Alas, I digress. Simply personal preference here. Either way, my Ravagers of Rovagug shall soon lay waste upon Golarion and free the Great Destroyer from his worldly bindings. And then, all of life shall be unmade, as the Rough Beast ravages the multiverse; first devouring the work of the gods before turning to his would be captors for their hand in his imprisoning. *insert maniacal laughter*


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Rysky wrote:
Granted it's not an absolute guarantee that one of the Evil Champions in the APG is even named Antipaladin, this was just an NPC codex.

Fair, but given the sidebar information, I'm thinking it will be.

Also, wouldn't an Anti-Antipaladin just be an Paladin?


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I like Skelm, but would have to be for a very particular subclass imo. One based in a part of Golarion that has a culture similar to South Africa.

Personally like the name Ravager. To ravage means to "cause severe and extensive damage or destruction", which is literally what the Antipaladin is all about. Holy warriors of wanton destruction, mayhem, and havoc. Plus, I think there's a way to shoehorn some lore behind the term being related to Rovagug.

I just really dislike the name Antipaladin. Always have, always will. It's uninspired to me, especially in a world were we now have the likes of the Redeemer and Liberator. I can't imagine that the LE and NE Champions will simply be Anti- versions of their Good counterparts. I'd hate to see every other subclasses get inspiring, meaningful names, and then the CE Champion is simply seen as the antithesis to the Paladin, which I'd argue isn't very accurate.

Just my personal two cents on the matter. I'll personally just refer to them as Ravagers either way in my games.


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Curses!! I see the dreaded "Antipaladin" has made it into the rules. There goes my hope of seeing the class get a more creative name. Guess I should expect Anti-Redeemer and Anti-Liberator as well. D:


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On a separate, more relevant note: does anyone else have an unbridled desire to start a campaign of nothing but Vigilante characters? My inner child wants to push a full Vigilante Ranger party and refer to them as Power Rangers. :D


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Oni, by Pathfinder standards, are considered Fiends. Under the new rules for "outsiders", Kami would have to fall under the category of one of the three class of Outer Immortals: being Celestial, Monitor, or Fiend. Given that most of Kami, void the Zuishin (which is LG), are some kind of neutral, one could argue that they are Monitors. But that only really works where Law and Chaos are concerned I think, since Good or Evil implies Celestial or Fiend respectively. A way around this could be to make Yokai their own form of Immortal, ones which aren't necessarily bound by the usual rules applied to the other Outer Immortals.

Yokai could be the neutral bound Immortals, able to go any direction in terms of neutral alignment, and then Kami could be the Celestial counterpart to Oni. Or Kami become the neutral ones and we introduce a third Immortal to Tian-Xia as Celestial beings. My recommendation would be the Tennin from Buddhism, which are basically angels.

Yokai is meant to also evoke certain monsters from Japanese myth, which, so far, has not been done in Pathfinder. Tengu, Kitsune, and Tanuki aren't considered Yokai by Pathfinder standards, only Oni, Kami, and ghosts/spirits.

If it were me, I'd use Yurei as the general term for undead ghosts or spirits, make Yokai a race of Immortals, divide the race into Tennin, Kami, and Oni, and probably turn Zuishin into a type of Tennin. But, that is just my opinion on the matter. In the end, Paizo will have to do something, because Kami, as they are, simply do not work with the way the new Immortals work now. As it stands, all Immortals seemingly must fall into one of four categories: Celestial, Elemental, Fiend, or Monitor, with appropriate subtypes where needed, such as Angel, Genie, Demon, or Aeon.


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This I know. But it's odd that Aasimar have the "Aasimar" trait, and Tieflings the "Tieflong" trait. But Duskwalkers have the "Duskwalker" trait, instead of "Urobian". So the question is, are Duskwalkers Urobians? Or are Urobians a separate race, more akin to Aasimar and Tielfing?

But alas, I will stop beating a dead horse here, and just look forward to the APG and any blog posts about it.


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Ganzi are described as being created through "generations of exposeure" to the energies of the Malestrom; and stated as having similarities to Protean, but aren't directly related to them and are in fact simply born from mortal intermingling.

Aphorite are literal creations of the Axiomites, built to serve as their mortal proxies. After their initial creation, they eventually started to be born into the universe naturally; but through the union of other Aphorite and not Outsiders/Immortals with mortals.

Planar Scions are described as the result of Outsider/Immortals "pairing" with mortals. So, technically neither Ganzi nor Aphorites would really fit that description. That being said, it is questionable whether Duskwalkers are true Planar Scions themselves. They are the result of souls within the Boneyard being reincarnated by Psychopomps; which is to say, they aren't reproducing with the Monitor race of Pharasmas domain.

Urobians are described as being "Monitor scions". Thus, theoretically, they can be created through mortals and Outsiders/Immortals mingling. So they may not be related to the three aforementioned planar races. Or Urobian is a catchall and not a true race. Or, it was a dropped concept. Curious to see if they are mentioned within the Duskwalker portion of the APG at all. Would answer the question here.

EDIT: Correction, the 2e Bestiary states Planar Scions can stem from the results of planar energies, magic curses, or the intervention of divine beings. So their all Scions, but maybe aren't Urobian?


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Jessica Redekop wrote:


Pathfinder 2e replaces types and subtypes with traits. Outsider is not a trait, but fiend, celestial, and monitor *are.* Demons have replaced their "outsider (demon)" type and subtype with the trait combo of "fiend" and "demon."

You can safely conclude there won't be a trait coming in to replace Outsider (Native), and all former Outsider (Natives) will receive different traits in 2e, based on...

1) The Rakshasa and the Janni. In the P1 Bestiary, both were Outsider (Native). In the P2 bestiary, Janni has the "Elemental" and "Genie" traits, and Rakshasa have "Fiend" and "Rakshasa."

By that logic, Kami would likely fall into one of the four main "Outsider/Immortal": being Elemental, Celestial, Monitor, of Fiend. That or Yokai will become a creature trait?

If they become Celestial though, maybe we will get a whole Neutral Tian "Outsider/Immortal". I'd be very much be on board with that. I really want to see the Tian side of things expanded greatly. Well, the non-Inner Sea region expanded on, period. But I'm particularly stuck on Tian atm.

Rysky wrote:


*looks up Urobians*

I wonder if that is the catchall for Ganzi, Aphorites, and Duskwalkers, or something new? I wonder what the Etymology comes from.

Says Monitor, which includes Aeons (plus Axiomites and Inevitabiles), Psychopomps, and Proteans. So, theoretically, yes for Duskwalkers. Ganzi I'd say no, simply because they are specifically noted as being related to Proteans. Aphorites are also iffy maybe? They were created, as opposed to being born. So, I'm not entirely sure they would be, unless their lore is altered a bit. I may be overthinking them a bit.

Maybe the APG will touch on the term Urobian more, since Duskwalkers are here. I too am curious on the etymology as well.

EDIT: Actually, looking through the Bestiary, Urobian is on ever mentioned in the Tiefling side bar. I also noticed that Duskwalkers do not feature a Urobian trait, whereas Aasimer and Tiefling both feature a trait of the same name. So, maybe Urobians are separate from Duskwalkers? Maybe it will simply be used as a catchall name and not used as an actual trait. Or, the term was something used during development and has likely been dropped.


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Evil = Fiend is fair enough. But it is a bit arbitrary in some ways. Like, are fallen Celestials automatically Fiends then? Or do they eventually become Fiends? What about things like Black Jinn? Are the technically Fiendish Elementals?

Defiently agree with the dislike of Angels being the eponymous NG... outside being (?). I very much liked the idea that they were universal representation of Good in general. It provided a sense of balance and order within the Upper Planes that the Lower ones simply lacked. But, I accept the change more or less. I'm curious if the shift in Aeon alignment from N to LN will leave a hole in the N aspects of the multiverse? Or will we get a new type of Monitor to replace them? Based on some comments I've seen by Paizo, I'm not quite sure we will see a True Neutral member of the Outer Sphere. Well, there are the Psychopomps I suppose, now that I think about it. But will we get a new one? No reason multiple Celestial/Monitors can't represent a single alignment, as Fiends do.

As a side note, exploring the wiki a bit, it would seem we are getting a Planar Scion for Monitors, being the Urobians. Haven't explored the 2E Bestiary in its entirety, so I defiently missed this.


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Rysky wrote:
Ly'ualdre wrote:
Curious to see how heritage descents will function here, seeing how four out of the five feature distinct heritages themselves. Some means of representing a Moroi-born Dhampir or a Callow May Changeling would be nice. Would personally love to see more Aasimer descents as well; I'd at least like to see Kami offspring at some point. If a Tiefling can rise from the union of Oni, why can't Kami produce Aasimer?

Because Oni are Fiends, whereas Kami aren’t Celestials.

Which isn’t to say they couldn’t produce Planar Scions, but they would either be Ganzi or Aphorites or something else.

This is absolutely true. However, I'd argue the fact that Oni are not mortal born Fiends and are instead corruptions of Kami, it stands to reason that Kami SHOULD be Celestial beings themselves, and completely capable of producing Half-Celestial and eventual Aasimer offspring. Hoping to see them make that change in 2E. There really isn't any reason they can't or shouldn't be Celestials. I honestly think it was more a matter of we never really got any Tian specific sourcebooks that really explored into the lore of the continent, or Kami for that matter, in any truly appreciable manner. Another thing I hope to see remedied in 2E.

Peri and Garuda are a good arguments here too I think. Peri are described as Celestials descended from fallen Angels, being another possible example of an "Outsider" transitioning into another form of "Outsider" and not (technically) from a mortal. So why are they Celestial and Kami aren't? Is it because they were once Angels? So why do Kami become Fiends then as Oni? It's a curious question I'd like to see explored. Then there are the Garuda, which are not classified as as Celestial beings at all. Yet, they can produce a Plumekith decedent.

So, I feel there is enough going in the favor of Kami to reason they theoretically COULD produce mortal offspring in the same way Oni do.


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Curious to see how heritage descents will function here, seeing how four out of the five feature distinct heritages themselves. Some means of representing a Moroi-born Dhampir or a Callow May Changeling would be nice. Would personally love to see more Aasimer descents as well; I'd at least like to see Kami offspring at some point. If a Tiefling can rise from the union of Oni, why can't Kami produce Aasimer?


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vagrant-poet wrote:

I was thinking about centaur-esque creatures.

But obviously Taurian isn't great for the same reason that Lycan isn't.

Otherwise there doesn't seem to be a name for people like centaurs and merfolk who aren't just generally animal-human hybrids, but specifically swap their lower body for another creatures entire body from the head down. I think Giratablilu are the same. I'd love to know if there is a good name for beings like that.

Defiently agree that Taurian isn't a great choice here. I suggested it because it's actually a term you can used search in the wiki, which takes you to the Centaur page. The word simply caught my attention. The problem here is that Centaur has always been the name for the creatures in myth. Thus, the -taur root of their name is kind of immutable without making an entirely new name for their people. But yes, with the term "taur" translating to bulls, it isn't ideal for creatures similar to Centaurs. So, whoever decided that Centaurs were half-horse instead of half-bull clearly wasn't an from ancient Greece.

That said, I suppose it isn't entirely neccesary for Centaur and similar creatures to be grouped into a family here. It isn't like any of them are actually related within Golarion. They just so happen to share a similar physical structure.


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So I've recently been thinking about Paizos newest trend in Pathfinder Second Edition, wherein many of the settings creatures and people have been given their own names for their species, further separating them from other fantasy settings. With this came things like the Iruxi and the Amurrans, the names of the Lizardfolk and Catfolk respectively in their own language. We also got things like creatures being grouped together under a collective noun, creating families of similar creatures; such as Dryads and Naiads being a kind of Nymph. Not to mention the similar case of an individual creature being used to describe a particular member within their species; such as Treants being the leaders and elders of the Arboreals.

So it got me thinking about the various creatures within the world and what they call themselves, how they may be group them together, and if older names may be used to further identify their species or purpose. So the goal of this thread is to not only spitball some ideas, but possibly establish a list of names for the many creatures of Golarion.

----

That being said, I wanted to dive into an idea I had for Werecreatures and their progeny, Skinwalkers. I've never quite liked the term Werecreature, and Lycanthrope is too specific; Lycan coming from the Greek word for wolf. There is however another Greek word that I think would work as a collective name for Were-creatures in general: that being Therion, meaning "wild animal" or "beast". The term is used in the word Therianthropy, which refers to the ability of men being capable of shapeshifting into animals. Thus, Lycanthropy would be a particular form of Therianthropy. The term works better for the way that Lycanthropy is represented in Pathfinder: being a curse/disease that causes the bearer to shift into the forms of various different animals, as well as hybrid forms. The word Zoanthropy is also used interchangeably with Therianthropy; Zoan being used in Zoology to form words to categorize animals.

I believe Therion or Zoan would make great names for either Werecreatures or Skinwalkers. This is of course assuming Paizo doesn't just come up with their own name for these creatures. Given the fact that, at least in PF2s Bestiary, Paizo has seemingly done away with the word Lycanthropy, it's entirely possible that they will create their own identity for the creatures moving forward. If Werecreature is that identity, I'd be okay with that; but would much prefer the term Werebeast personally. And I've yet to see mention of Skinwalkers yet. So I'd probably use Therion as the proper name for them; with the Skinwalker, as well as Were-kin and Beast-kin, being used as alternatives for the heritage.

----

So what are your ideas for particular names of creatures? Perhaps Taurians is the collective name given to Centaur and similar creatures whom posses the lower half of animals? Maybe Outsiders can be re-purposed as the word used to describe planar ancestries and heritages, such as Aasimar and Geniekin. Lets have fun trying to further the world and game we all love to play.


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Having not yet bought the book myself yet, I am thrilled to see extra content for the more niche deities given major coverage within its pages. And I am simply over the moon, er sun, that Shizuru made it in with the other prominent deities presented therein. Working on some Tian Xia specific ideas, and having further knowledge on her eminence in Heaven, as well as Tsukiyo and Hei Feng, will really help see some of my ideas fruition.


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I've finally read and caught up to this entire thread, and would just like to say thank you for all the insights into your profession. This thread has been truly astounding to read qnd awe-inspiring. Really makes me wish I had kept up with my art skills in my younger days.

My question for you is in regards to the Champion class. I understand that you cannot speak on anything concerning any potential content for Pathfinder, so I'll try to parse this in a way that doesn't seem to imply that is what I'm looking for.

What I'm curious about is if you have any desire, personally, to create Iconic characters for the Champion subclasses? Of all the classes, the Champion is the one I feel would be the best fit for multiple Iconics, given the scale of deities within the world. Could argue that for the Cleric too I suppose, but that's neither here nor there. Anyways, Seelah will always be the Iconic Paladin to me, even if she is meant to evoke the idea of the Champion as a whole. I'd love to see your take on what a Redeemer and Liberator would look like; and any future subclasses for that matter. Would personally love to see your ideas for at least one of each alignment honestly. We've already got a headstart with Urgraz as the Anti-Paladin, even if I am admittedly a bigger fan of our Lord Pig-Kicker. He simply holds a special place in my heart.

As a side note: less to you and more to the great people at Paizo. Please, for everything that is cruel and unholy; please do not name the CE Champion the Anti-Paladin. Rovagug as my witness, I shall destroy myself should I have to be called an Anti-Paladin henceforth!


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Very excited for this. The deities have always been my favorite part of the setting. Particularly interested in the Tien deities myself, even if Tsukiyo seems to be the only one they venture deep into with this book. But I imagine Tsukiyo himself will give some context into some of the other deities, like Shizuru and Fumeiyoshi. Also curious about Kofusachi and Sun Wukong, if only because I've always felt their favored weapons got mixed up in development somewhere, and was never corrected since they never touched on them fully. I've always associated the mythological Monkey Kings staff to be a bo, so maybe it's personal preference. Either way, very excited to see all the deities given a bit more substance through new domains, their edicts, and anathemas. Should be a lot of fun to explore everything.


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Reading this makes me want the Arcanist class, should it return, to be a class that combines the traditions of magic rather than wizardly pursuits and innate sorcery. I never quite liked the flavor of "couldn't quite hack it academically, and my bloodline is much too muddled. But hey, smash the two together, and you get magic." The story above suggests that Halcyon magic is the combination of traditions. Perhaps Arcanist are the masters of this?

I think you can still keep the basis and chasis of the existing class; being a magical tinker of sorts, who combines two or more forms of magic, and gained excess to magical exploits as a result. But combining traditions leaves so much room for further customization and a much more compelling story for the class I think. Could still make archetypes or subclasses that dive deeper into the nuances of the compounded magic; such as melding innate and learned abilities of the Sorcer and Wizard; or the worship of nature and the Green Faith as the Druid that is truly divine like that of a Cleric. Perhaps even using merging magic and technology to create a psuedo-Artificer/pre-Technomancer.

Sorry if this is a bad place for this. Was simply my first train of thought right after reading the article.


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Nice to see the Monestary of Unbroken Waves will be getting some love in the future. Always bothered me that there were only three schools within the Houses of Perfection.


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I would really love to see these done as class coins as well, with the symbols for each class featured on one side.


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This just solidifies my desire for a playable undead race to explore the catacombs and cemeteries of Geb with. I really like the name Graveborn.

I'm also very interested in the Dwarf in that picture. He has Artificer or a similar class written on him.


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Just gonna shove an Elixer of Life down this threads throat.

Perhaps Damiel can be reclassed as a new artificer-esqe class combining the science of alchemy with the magical teachings of the arcane. Could be a new class, but could easily be an alchemist/wizard hybrid.