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Well, if you want dominoes, we're back to Torag. That would drop some dominoes.Would it though? I figure just "one of Torag's family members would take over and things would mostly be the same". Like they're Überdwarfs, they wouldn't have a succession problem.
Torag would be my choice for "if they died, the fewest things would change."
It's not that they'd fall into divine civil war. I tend to doubt that they'd actually have a succession plan in place, but I'm willing to take on faith that they could work it out reasonably amicably.
The hit would be in the culture and civilization of the dwarves themselves. Torag has oversight over basically all of the things that Dwarves care most about. Their most influential religious leaders would be priests of Torag... and all those priests are suddenly bereft. That's going to cause some massive churn under the surface of the various dwarven communities, and that kind of churn is exactly the sort of thing that can (and will) bring to the surface any tensions or struggles that had previously been kept relatively subdued. The loss of Torag woudl be a Significant Emotional Experience for... basically all fo them. You'd see huge numbers signing up for any sort of crusade that looked likely to strike back ant whoever it was that did this thing. You'd see large numbers falling to doubt and despair.
You don't need to have a culture collapse entirely for there to be major dominoes.
Among the dwarven pantheon, Torag seems to get the most blame for dwarven conduct during the Quest for Sky. Were he to die in a way that was clearly meant to be an apology (say, protecting a newly risen orc goddess who was from Belkzen), that would go a long way towards allowing the dwarves and the orcs to make a united front against Tar-Baphon. Especially if Taargick's regrets become public knowledge, which is a very likely ending for Sky King's Tomb. That alliance would pincer the Gravelands (Kyonin and Druma would be in, and Molthune and Nirmathas and Oprak would very likely join as well) and force Tar-Baphon to counter it. Probably by doing something desperate that impacts all of Avistan at the very least.
In short: While I think it's probably going to be Asmodeus, if it's a good deity it will be Torag. The setup is in place.
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...If Cayden is dead, then who does the farmer pray to for help with their crops?...
This is a strange comment to me, as the answer is that they weren't praying to Cayden for crops in the first place, they were praying to Erastil.
Cayden is always depicted as the god of bravery, freedom, and alcohol and wine, and list things like brewers, adventurers, and barkeeps among his worshipers, never really mentioning crop stuff. While, sure, it could be assumed that by extention of the alcohol and wine elements farmers might worship him, it's certainly not his main thing in any means.
Meanwhile, Erastil is the god of family, farming, hunting, and trade, and as such is almost certainly the go-to for farmers wanting to grow crops; replacing Cayden with a harvest god doesn't give us a more interesting harvest god, it just gives us two separate harvest gods in the core pantheon. That said, I don't think Erastil is very likely to bite the bullet either because whilst logically he'd be a pretty big deal in-setting and thus makes sense as a core deity, by his nature of pretty much just covering various major topics which are more geared towards NPCs than PCs, most people aren't super invested in him so his death wouldn't feel super impactful to us.
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Farmers also get to pray to Gozreh for favorable weather.
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With both games going to be compatible, how about a flip map that one side is a location as it is in Pathfinder and the other side what it looks like in Starfinder? The Starfinder side wouldn't have to be high-tech. It could be an archaeological site digging up the ruins of the flip side of the map.
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Hmm something I've been thinking about. The playtest is in september. Do you think we will find out which of the core 20 dieties is gonna die then? The book the two new classes are in are connected to that metaplot. Lastly, do you think paizo will include a hint or acknowledgement of this death somewhere in the remaster.
It still feels really weird that the remaster will be coming out and then a year or 2 later a player option might be obsolete. Obviously players could play before the event or have their characters engage with that change.
I also know the work for this metaplot was probably in the works before the Remaster was gonna be a thing, so keeping to that narrative and not wasting work makes 100%, sense. I'm just wondering if they may engage with it in some way. And if not that is ok and also makes sense.
This is also assuming the death will be known a head of time either because it is what kicks off the metaplot or because paizo deems it a big enough plot point to be used as a selling point. Keeping who specifically dies underwraps is an understandable choice as well.
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What if Asmodeus gets whacked… and Hell has an election to replace him?
A transparently-corrupt, nightmarish farce of the democratic process, of course, but that’s just politics, sweetheart.
This is a brilliant idea that I don't think would execute well in Pathfinder. For one, as others have stated, it strikes me as politically fraught since people would consciously or unconsciously, both the writers and the people interpreting the material, incorporate modern parallels.
Secondly, we are about to head into another election cycle in the US. I don't think anyone is going to want to think about elections in their fun escapism :(
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If i recall one og the descriptions for the two new classes were that they have never been in/on golarion before. Somee initial thoughts about phrasing led to some people thinking about starfinder classess. This was deconfirmedd pretty quickly i beleive both by a developer, and the mere fact that one if sf2es selling points is that it is compatiable with pf2e.
But I am thinking what if the lore of these classes literally come from the metaplot. It would explain the rare tag on one of them. Its so rare because its an emerging type of power in universe. People with these abilities have never existed before and now they do
Ehhhh. The dwarves are getting an entire AP ("Sky King's Tomb") and just got an entire sourcebook (Lost Omens Highhelm). Paizo tries to focus a bit on one theme, then a bit on another. I don't think they'd publish yet more orc-dwarf violence that close to spending an entire summer on it. It'd get stale.Among the dwarven pantheon, Torag seems to get the most blame for dwarven conduct during the Quest for Sky. Were he to die in a way that was clearly meant to be an apology (say, protecting a newly risen orc goddess who was from Belkzen), that would go a long way towards allowing the dwarves and the orcs to make a united front against Tar-Baphon. Especially if Taargick's regrets become public knowledge, which is a very likely ending for Sky King's Tomb. That alliance would pincer the Gravelands (Kyonin and Druma would be in, and Molthune and Nirmathas and Oprak would very likely join as well) and force Tar-Baphon to counter it. Probably by doing something desperate that impacts all of Avistan at the very least.
In short: While I think it's probably going to be Asmodeus, if it's a good deity it will be Torag. The setup is in place.
If Torag was gonna die, why not do it in the actual adventure path?? I agree. It seems weird to have it occur outside the adventure if it were to happen
When do we find out or get more information?
Well Sky Kings Tomb is a 1-10 only adventure, dealing with a gods death during that seems a bit out of scope. That adventure certainly seems like its a more people centered story.
+Part of the metaplot where a diety dies is gonna include an adventure( i cant remember if it was a stand alone one or an adventure path)
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Apparently, the god war will be the very next Adventure Path to be announced (#201-?). We'll get more details on the 31st, with the playtest coming out on the 1st. It will end with the deity either dying or staying dead.
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I don't know if it were ever actually stated that the Narrative team's contribution would be a full AP. It'd be appropriate, given the scale of the event. But it's just as likely to be a standalone adventure as well.
Again, we'll find out more on the 31st.
Where was that stated? Nice if its really this soon but I missed that info as well x'D
The 31st? It was stated in the GenCon Recap blog post. Paizo is doing a livestream on the 31st, to reveal the playtest classes, their new Iconics, and some of their abilities. And then the playtest will start on September 1st. We'll find out the name of the book they are in when they are shown off. And supposedly, the name of the book they are in is a massive spoiler in and of itself.
I am still pretty strongly convinced our 2 new classes will be the Seneschal and the Weaver.
The seneschal feels like it will mostly be a martial character who I am guessing will have a troop minion and otherwise be very buff focused.
I was pretty uncertain what a weaver could be as far a caster class, but with how long and how many people have complained about wanting a caster not really connected to spell slots, and the popularity of the kineticist, I am wondering if it won't be a class who gets very specific spell like abilities that they can use frequently, by pulling energies from various non-elemental planes. Perhaps it earns its name "weaver" by specifically requiring pulling energy from 2 or more disparate planes, weaving together types of magic that otherwise don't usually mix together.
Man, none of those new class concepts sound terribly interesting to me. If you end up being correct, I hope the mechanics are solid at least.
I am still pretty strongly convinced our 2 new classes will be the Seneschal and the Weaver.
The seneschal feels like it will mostly be a martial character who I am guessing will have a troop minion and otherwise be very buff focused.
I agree with these and would really like these as new classes, although I'm not sure how I would feel about the troop minion, but could be really interesting.
Honestly that just sounds like the kineticist from different planes. Personally I would hope that this new weaver class would have very different flavor then at will magic pulled from another plane. Something like able to pull on the threads of fate and destiny for allies and foes alike. Mechanically I would like it to do for support/debuff casters what the kineticist did for blaster casters, which is a non spell slot caster, with a strong 'magic' feel.
I was pretty uncertain what a weaver could be as far a caster class, but with how long and how many people have complained about wanting a caster not really connected to spell slots, and the popularity of the kineticist, I am wondering if it won't be a class who gets very specific spell like abilities that they can use frequently, by pulling energies from various non-elemental planes. Perhaps it earns its name "weaver" by specifically requiring pulling energy from 2 or more disparate planes, weaving together types of magic that otherwise don't usually mix together.
I very nearly posted that my personal hope for this would be that they had no blasting abilities at all, and excluded the elemental planes, since that is so well covered by the kineticist, but I figured there would be a ton of push back because people are still waiting for a caster who is a blaster even with the Kineticist now out. But also, I imagine anyone pulling threads of magic from creation's forge or the void or even the outer rifts or Heaven is going to have potent energy for hurting very specific kinds of enemies.
What I would care about more is making sure that the class is not a "focus on one plane and have a personal connection to that plane" and that, as a weaver, the specific thing that makes it all work (and not draw down the wrath of planar beings attached to those planes) is to carefully and skillfully pull threads from lots of different places, trying to avoid drawing so much from anyone place as to draw attention.
Since "Weaver" and "Seneschal" were teases given as "words in what I'm working on" they are probably not the literal names of the classes (I would think something like "subclasses" is more likely.)
There will be a lot of stuff about this story coming from the Narrative team, never fear, but we're quite a ways out from announcing anything more about the details. There's still PLENTY of time for folks to get in their predictions and guesses.
Im guessing the town artisan class. I'm ready to to roll a baker!
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There will be a lot of stuff about this story coming from the Narrative team, never fear, but we're quite a ways out from announcing anything more about the details. There's still PLENTY of time for folks to get in their predictions and guesses.Im guessing the town artisan class. I'm ready to to roll a baker!
You're onto something here methinks. New Rare class has got to be the fabled and mystifying Super Commoner. Comes with subclasses in all major forms of fantasy villager profession, including Farmer, Weaver, Baker, and Smith. This is what the hints were pointing to all along!
One new class I'd like is something that deals with incarnate-type effects (also would just like more of those spells), I like the idea of summon in thing to do a move and then it leaves
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I'll be very surprised if at least one of the playtest classes isn't dealing with some combination of divine power, spirits, and fate/fortune.
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It shall be called the Uncommoner.You're onto something here methinks. New Rare class has got to be the fabled and mystifying Super Commoner. Comes with subclasses in all major forms of fantasy villager profession, including Farmer, Weaver, Baker, and Smith. This is what the hints were pointing to all along!There will be a lot of stuff about this story coming from the Narrative team, never fear, but we're quite a ways out from announcing anything more about the details. There's still PLENTY of time for folks to get in their predictions and guesses.Im guessing the town artisan class. I'm ready to to roll a baker!
And will be Rare.
I'd like to see a dedicated artificer class, akin to the one from the early Ebberron setting in D&D.
Not like the technical inventor, but with a more magical bent.
Maybe even use the new class to patch some of the problems with magical item crafting. A wizard or other caster that wanted to focus on such crafting could multiclass into artificer to meet that conceptual need.
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It shall be called the Uncommoner.And will be Rare.
Well... yeah.
I mean, there's Uncommon... and then there's Uncommoner.
Well, they could just introduce the Uncommoner, which has the uncommon trait, and then the Uncommonerer, which is one degree less common, and thus rare.
Well, they could just introduce the Uncommoner, which has the uncommon trait, and then the Uncommonerer, which is one degree less common, and thus rare.
Uncommonest.
Well, they could just introduce the Uncommoner, which has the uncommon trait, and then the Uncommonerer, which is one degree less common, and thus rare.Uncommonest.
I think that would require the Unique trait.
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I think that would require the Unique trait.Well, they could just introduce the Uncommoner, which has the uncommon trait, and then the Uncommonerer, which is one degree less common, and thus rare.Uncommonest.
And you would need to succeed at RK against yourself just to know what your class feature actually does.
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Well, if you want dominoes, we're back to Torag. That would drop some dominoes.Would it though? I figure just "one of Torag's family members would take over and things would mostly be the same". Like they're Überdwarfs, they wouldn't have a succession problem.
Torag would be my choice for "if they died, the fewest things would change."
It's not that they'd fall into divine civil war. I tend to doubt that they'd actually have a succession plan in place, but I'm willing to take on faith that they could work it out reasonably amicably.
The hit would be in the culture and civilization of the dwarves themselves. Torag has oversight over basically all of the things that Dwarves care most about. Their most influential religious leaders would be priests of Torag... and all those priests are suddenly bereft. That's going to cause some massive churn under the surface of the various dwarven communities, and that kind of churn is exactly the sort of thing that can (and will) bring to the surface any tensions or struggles that had previously been kept relatively subdued. The loss of Torag woudl be a Significant Emotional Experience for... basically all fo them. You'd see huge numbers signing up for any sort of crusade that looked likely to strike back ant whoever it was that did this thing. You'd see large numbers falling to doubt and despair.
You don't need to have a culture collapse entirely for there to be major dominoes.
So, Aroden for Dwarves.
Unlikely, as in been there, done that.
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I really do think Asmodeus has a target on his back, and I'm increasingly not sure Hell needs a deity representing it in the core pantheon.
Norgorber can inherit a lot of the tyrant role, Abadar handles the legalism, there's no shortage of other powers to make a terrible pact with (Nidal, famously has a contract with Zon-Kuthon), and we then get a slot on the pantheon. Would folks be okay with it being someone other than a fiend getting that promotion?
Ydersius makes good sense if the Sekmin are rising as a threat, and is my favorite of the options out there so far.
I definitely do not see Yderdius suddenly becoming one of the 20 Most popular deities of the Inner Sea.
I could see the Goblin deities there before him TBT.
I definitely do not see Yderdius suddenly becoming one of the 20 Most popular deities of the Inner Sea.
I don't think that's what the "Core 20" is supposed to represent. I have to imagine that actively worshiping Rovagug or Zon-Kuthon is less popular than worshipping like Milani, Kurgess, Brigh, Pulara, Nivi Rhombodazzle, or like the 4th most popular member of Torag's family.
There was definitely an intention of "representing all 9 alignments" when some of the more powerful evil things are not really reasonable things to worship
Creative Director
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The original methodology for the "Core 20" was that we wanted to have 2 choices for every alignment, but also to try to make sure that we had at least 1 "perfect choice" for all the various character classes we had in the game at the time with the 3.5 SRD. I don't recall the exact reasoning why we chose Lawful Good and Neutral to get the 19th and 20th leftover slots, but I think it probably had something to do with the fact that since paladins in that time were always Lawful Good we needed an extra choice there, and since druids were always Neutral adjacent they needed an extra choice there.
As for why 20? Because it was a fun nod to the fact that it was a d20 game we were creating.
Regardless... a "core 20" is something that we want to keep. It's served the game well by presenting a diverse range of choices for most archetypes of play without being too overwhelming.
Something like a non-elemental planar channeller perhaps?
In other mediums we have something called a planeswalker. A specialist at traversing and channeling planes would be cool and distinct from other franchises who tend to view the archetype as more akin to sorcerers or x-men.
Subclasses would then focus on different planes being channeled- but with some caveat to distinguish them from Kineticists.
I’ll give em credit- Pathfinder hasn’t made their clues as ridonkulously simplistic, and easy to guess as their competitors.
The only person who we know is gonna do some god killing is an Orc warrior woman and ?cleric of Sarenrae who died with the mark of a God-challenger or something. I can’t see her killing any good deities.
But we also have hints that the storyline is about to get darker, and that the “sun will die”.
We have the lich Tar “Ba-fool” whose phylactery was hidden by Urgathoa. We have newly risen rune lords and a Peacock Spirit who is likely a thought-dead runelord.
Maybe Sarenrae and the spirit of the orc champion fight Urgathoa, kill her, but Asmodius takes advantage of the situation to kill Sarenrae who bequeaths her domain to the Orc champion?
Do we know that the death count will be strictly limited to just one deity??
If Paizo is using this whole thing to clear house and remove additional references to the OGL- then Asmodius makes sense. But we have literally done nothing to advance such a plot so far.
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The implication was that it would be at least 1 core deity, and other deities not from the core could be on the chopping block.
The original methodology for the "Core 20" was that we wanted to have 2 choices for every alignment, but also to try to make sure that we had at least 1 "perfect choice" for all the various character classes we had in the game at the time with the 3.5 SRD. I don't recall the exact reasoning why we chose Lawful Good and Neutral to get the 19th and 20th leftover slots, but I think it probably had something to do with the fact that since paladins in that time were always Lawful Good we needed an extra choice there, and since druids were always Neutral adjacent they needed an extra choice there.
As for why 20? Because it was a fun nod to the fact that it was a d20 game we were creating.
Regardless... a "core 20" is something that we want to keep. It's served the game well by presenting a diverse range of choices for most archetypes of play without being too overwhelming.
Oh, c'mon, people make top 25 lists all the time. How much fun would it be to add some of the more popular minor gods, like Besmara, Kurgess or Nocticula, to the "big deities" pantheon? :D
Well, if you want dominoes, we're back to Torag. That would drop some dominoes.Would it though? I figure just "one of Torag's family members would take over and things would mostly be the same". Like they're Überdwarfs, they wouldn't have a succession problem.
Torag would be my choice for "if they died, the fewest things would change."
It's not that they'd fall into divine civil war. I tend to doubt that they'd actually have a succession plan in place, but I'm willing to take on faith that they could work it out reasonably amicably.
The hit would be in the culture and civilization of the dwarves themselves. Torag has oversight over basically all of the things that Dwarves care most about. Their most influential religious leaders would be priests of Torag... and all those priests are suddenly bereft. That's going to cause some massive churn under the surface of the various dwarven communities, and that kind of churn is exactly the sort of thing that can (and will) bring to the surface any tensions or struggles that had previously been kept relatively subdued. The loss of Torag woudl be a Significant Emotional Experience for... basically all fo them. You'd see huge numbers signing up for any sort of crusade that looked likely to strike back ant whoever it was that did this thing. You'd see large numbers falling to doubt and despair.
You don't need to have a culture collapse entirely for there to be major dominoes.
Wouldn’t this just retread the same path as Aroden’s fall? He was the human equivalent to Torag. Individual worshipers and priests would be shaken up, and I’m certain thing would be messy for a while, but of all ancestries I would think dwarves took a beat to think about how they’d cope after watching humans go off the deep end.
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For new classes, something occurred to m as I was prepping to run the Dark archive case files as a single adventure path; rituals are still relatively underutilized. We have ritualists as an archetype, but Isort of expected a class that leans on short rituals (like say 10 minutes) as at least a side focus.
Related, I had an idea for short rituals that casters could use as a refocus mechanic. With focus pools greatly expanding, I could see such 10 minute rituals being added to give a chance at getting 2 or 3 focus points back at lower levels. Something like “perform a harrow spread” for a pharasma cleric or a psychic. That would leave room for the feat that gives you ALL your focus points back with a 10 minute refocus while still giving dice to roll to hopefully speed up low level refocus times.
Not sure how likely that is, it was just a stray thought.
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Wouldn’t this just retread the same path as Aroden’s fall? He was the human equivalent to Torag. Individual worshipers and priests would be shaken up, and I’m certain thing would be messy for a while, but of all ancestries I would think dwarves took a beat to think about how they’d cope after watching humans go off the deep end.
So instead we should kill off Cheliax's patron deity... again? I mean, if you're going to talk about "but that would be too similar to the fall of Aroden"....
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Oh, c'mon, people make top 25 lists all the time. How much fun would it be to add some of the more popular minor gods, like Besmara, Kurgess or Nocticula, to the "big deities" pantheon? :DThe original methodology for the "Core 20" was that we wanted to have 2 choices for every alignment, but also to try to make sure that we had at least 1 "perfect choice" for all the various character classes we had in the game at the time with the 3.5 SRD. I don't recall the exact reasoning why we chose Lawful Good and Neutral to get the 19th and 20th leftover slots, but I think it probably had something to do with the fact that since paladins in that time were always Lawful Good we needed an extra choice there, and since druids were always Neutral adjacent they needed an extra choice there.
As for why 20? Because it was a fun nod to the fact that it was a d20 game we were creating.
Regardless... a "core 20" is something that we want to keep. It's served the game well by presenting a diverse range of choices for most archetypes of play without being too overwhelming.
They also make top 10 lists and top 5 lists and so on. I don't feel there's a need to bloat the core 20 list by adding already popular additional deities, who I won't call "minor" simply because they're not in the core 20. Being in the Core 20 doesn't mean a deity is more powerful... just that in the Inner Sea region they're the most well-known and widespread. Same goes for other regions, which have different core 20 deities.
And we don't use a 25-sided die anyway.