| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I already got my class in kineticist I just want classes my group will love now.
Big same.
I mean, there's stuff that would be cool. I can imagine stuff that I would enjoy, and maybe want to play... but it's all gravy at this point. My needs are very much met.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm pretty sure James case was the main developer of the psychic class at least, which I very much like the design of (if not the flavor but I've never liked psychic stuff, I don't think even perfect mechanics could make it my favorite class). Looking forward to seeing what gets cooked up. Not a fan of a rare class but I'm sure I'm in the minority there. I already got my class in kineticist I just want classes my group will love now.
Also, James is in charge of the Remaster version of the Witch and Wizard, so I'm excited to see how those two turn out, and how the new class next year turns out as well!
(I have a feeling Case is doing a spellcaster, and Sayre is doing a Warlord-style martial.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does no one else feel like Sayre gave us the names of the new classes in his 4 word hint?
Seneschal and Weaver would both be new classes that could fit within a book that is looking at destiny shaking events. Either one could end up being rare if there is going to be minion/leadership mechanics for the Seneschal, or if the Weaver is going to deal with time or fate in such a way that a lot of GM cooperation is going to be required to make the class work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Given what has been revealed today, I think it is even more likely that one of the new classes is a Necromancer. The classes are coming in the same secret book as the event that leads to the death of a deity. So, if the extremely evil Urgathoa were to be the deity killed off, then her death could pave the way for more moderate Arazni to gain more influence with undead. The elimination of alignment makes room for more gray areas to justify getting “non-evil” Necromancers into the limelight a little more.
As for the second class, the Shifter, Shaman, Inquisitor, and others from 1E are ruled out. But, I wonder if it might be something a bit more like a combination of the old 1E classes, the Medium, the Shaman, and/or other similar class/archetypal concepts from fiction and D&D 3.5 and 4E, like the Binder/Pactmaster, an exorcist, an animist, or even have elements of the Inquisitor and Avenger in flavor and abilities. It would definitely not be the Shaman class, but rather something else, I think.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A seneschal class could cover a lot of concepts people have been clamoring for. It could be fairly defendery/warlord like, but it could also cover things like swarmy necromancer, or inventor with an army of robots if the primary class features are all about giving out bonuses to allies and having a troop minion.
I am guessing it will be the rare one.
But what kind of caster would a weaver be? (Which feels very James Case to me) It feels like something that might be divine, or Occult or a choose between the 2. It could involve "spirit weaving" in enough ways to bring a lot of the medium/shaman elements Sayre has been teasing into the game without having to deal with a huge backlash of players who wanted a more primal bent to a class called Shaman. It is hard to imagine getting a full caster playtest without having at least one full remastered spell list. I can't imagine there is a lot of good data to get from players using a combination of produce flame and ignition in the same playtest, or any of the other "almost the same spell but not" spells, unless it really is just the intention that you, the player, really are expected to be able to use any options from any PF2 book, remastered or not, unless it has been explicitly Errata'd or called out as replaced?
As I said upthread, Michael Sayre authored the “Battle Lord” class in Amora Games’ Liber Influxus Communis that was a warlord/tactician class;
and was also the author of Dreamscarred Press’ Akashic Mysteries whose classes used “veils” that I guess, could be said to be…woven:
Drawn from a more primal magical force that exists everywhere, akasha is a deep well of magic from which those who hold the right knowledge, can draw almost limitless power. Shaping this essence into magical veils that surround their body, binding them to ancient chakras, these veilweavers open up new avenues of abilities and possibilities.
So, Seneschal and Weaver could be these two new classes, with Michael taking the lead. Or maybe this is all just…data. Just giving people some background that does happen to coalesce figuratively with Michael’s cryptic tease.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Rare for a class means IMO something most GMs should let only one PC get in a given party. So even more hopeful for the master of fate/fortune and misfortune effects. I coukd see that being called a weaver BTW. As in weaver of fate.
Would go well with the death of Pharasma (my own current bet for who bites the dust).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Now that spirit damage is going to be widely applicable to most things and champions are getting a tune up I'm not sure I even need a new divine martial....so any new classes are just going to be pleasant surprises. Excited to see em
Apologizes if this has already been asked . . .
And, yes, I know it's extremely early but . . .
Beyond the Pathfinder 2E Core rule books and bestiaries, is there any way to know which PF2E books will replaced/rewritten with remastered rules and which will be left untouched? or will all the Pathfinder books need a newer remastered version?
Also, a similar (but not the same) question for Starfinder . . .
Is there anyway to know if ANY of of the first edition Starfinder books will be perfectly compatible with the newer Starfinder 2E? or will every 1st edition eventually be written/replaced with 2nd edition versions?
Thanks!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The replaced books are: CRB, GMG, APG, Bestiaries. All the other books will remain as they are (SoM, G&G etc.) and new ones from Rage of Elements onwarsd are Remaster-ready.
The only thing that will carry over from SF1 is lore, no crunch compatibility at all.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Would go well with the death of Pharasma (my own current bet for who bites the dust).
Given Pharasma's back story I find this possibility highly unlikely.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For pathfinder, technically every option from PF2 will still be compatible with the remastery, some just may errata released when the remastered core books are published, but any OGL PF1 options should be fully playable in the ORC remastery.
There could be some issues with creatures or classes having powers that now work funky (like champions doing good or evil damage until remastered champions are released in the Player Core 2) that a GM would need to understand how the changes of the game operate, but generally speaking it all will be compatible, even if it is in a replaced book...it just might functionally not really do anything anymore and feel like a wasted ability, spell or feature.
I imagine for Starfinder that most of the lore is going to cary over, so narratively you can keep stories, and if it is like converting PF1 to PF2, Adventures will be incredibly easy to convert, but mechanically it will not be compatible to just use options from the first edition without changing them to a 2nd edition mechanic that you might have to wait for or homebrew.
Awesome brand new 2E Remastered video on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q-iI6amhOM&t=1212s
Any guesses on when we can download the new Remasted Character sheet? (see video above: Time stamp: 41:37)
Thanks!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Any guesses on when we can download the new Remasted Character sheet? (see video above: Time stamp: 41:37)
Thanks!
Probably once Player Core and GM Core are out in November, I'd guess.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The replaced books are: CRB, GMG, APG, Bestiaries. All the other books will remain as they are (SoM, G&G etc.) and new ones from Rage of Elements onwarsd are Remaster-ready.
We may well see some errata at some point, though.
|
|
... am I the only one the hates the idea of Shelyn and Zon-kuton merging? Those two are interesting because she is a goddess of love who loves her brother dispite his flaws, while he is a god of harm that for all his evil does not go out of his way to start conflict.
The two merging would be the equivalent of removing the Ying-Yang. Yeah okay, but why?
It doesn't actually have to be a merge, though. Either one could take some of the other's name and portfolio in the event that one of them were to die. It wouldn't even be particularly out of character for them. (Shelyn's pain is the loss of her brother forever, beyond the redemption she hoped he would one day find, and now the Eternal Thorn's grief is as endless as the art she continually manifests as an expression of it...)
... am I the only one the hates the idea of Shelyn and Zon-kuton merging? Those two are interesting because she is a goddess of love who loves her brother dispite his flaws, while he is a god of harm that for all his evil does not go out of his way to start conflict.
The two merging would be the equivalent of removing the Ying-Yang. Yeah okay, but why?
Personally, whilst I would hate the idea of Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn merging in Pathfinder (for much the same reasons you said), I feel in Starfinder it's interesting as it's less "this ying/yang thing is gone" as much "we get to contrast the state of the ying/yang as these completely battling forces to them finding more true balance and merging into one", especially Starfinder hasn't really being just doing a 1-for-1 of Pathfinder's Ying/Yang anyway, with their original contrast to PF being how Shelyn was a really minor deity in Starfinder after she left to the very deep Great Beyond trying to find a cure for Zon.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My expectation is that Zon-Shelyn comes about because she manages to excise the corruption from Dou-Bral, but was somewhat afflicted by it herself. She's likely doing a better job fighting it off than her brother was.
Think of it as like the Venom symbiote. Zon-Kuthon was Dou-Bral completely controlled by the symbiote, Zon-Shelyn is Eddie Brock who is able to come to an understanding with the symbiote.
I hope not. Last thing we need is for all the evils of the world to get resolved before our new characters arrive.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I hope not. Last thing we need is for all the evils of the world to get resolved before our new characters arrive.
Were they ever going to do anything with Zon-Kuthon other than "resolve things with Shelyn". Like the entire premise of Nidal is "it's horrible, but poses absolutely no threat to anybody who doesn't cross their borders."
Plus, elevating Ydersius to the main stage (what with the Snekmen being the major darklands threat) is a lot more interesting than ZK was from a metaplot perspective.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have no idea what you're talking about. All I hear is that a really cool evil deity, and all the messed up crap surrounding him, might go away.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But what kind of caster would a weaver be? (Which feels very James Case to me) It feels like something that might be divine, or Occult or a choose between the 2. It could involve "spirit weaving" in enough ways to bring a lot of the medium/shaman elements Sayre has been teasing into the game without having to deal with a huge backlash of players who wanted a more primal bent to a class called Shaman. It is hard to imagine getting a full caster playtest without having at least one full remastered spell list. I can't imagine there is a lot of good data to get from players using a combination of produce flame and ignition in the same playtest, or any of the other "almost the same spell but not" spells, unless it really is just the intention that you, the player, really are expected to be able to use any options from any PF2 book, remastered or not, unless it has been explicitly Errata'd or called out as replaced?
Anyone read Tamora Pierce’s ‘Circle of Magic’ book series with Sandry, Daja, Tris, and Briar?
Look Briar and Tris will always be my favourites but let’s be honest- It’s Sandry- the stitch-witch who can literally weave different magics together -that stands out as most powerful. She literally bound their fates together as a group, and so as a buff/support caster- I think weaver might be fun -maybe it allows you to temporarily transfer abilities and statuses to one another.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hope not. Last thing we need is for all the evils of the world to get resolved before our new characters arrive.Were they ever going to do anything with Zon-Kuthon other than "resolve things with Shelyn". Like the entire premise of Nidal is "it's horrible, but poses absolutely no threat to anybody who doesn't cross their borders."
Plus, elevating Ydersius to the main stage (what with the Snekmen being the major darklands threat) is a lot more interesting than ZK was from a metaplot perspective.
I agree that Ydersius is more interesting than Zon Kuthon.
I also dislike the way Zon Kuthon continues to emphasize the trope in fantasy settings that BDSM-iconography and interest is inherently ‘evil’. He’s just one crazy mad-god who doesn’t understand who he is anymore- let alone consent.
Heal him. Kill him. I don’t care which.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I hope not. Last thing we need is for all the evils of the world to get resolved before our new characters arrive.Were they ever going to do anything with Zon-Kuthon other than "resolve things with Shelyn". Like the entire premise of Nidal is "it's horrible, but poses absolutely no threat to anybody who doesn't cross their borders."
Plus, elevating Ydersius to the main stage (what with the Snekmen being the major darklands threat) is a lot more interesting than ZK was from a metaplot perspective.
I agree that Ydersius is more interesting than Zon Kuthon.
I also dislike the way Zon Kuthon continues to emphasize the trope in fantasy settings that BDSM-iconography and interest is inherently ‘evil’. He’s just one crazy mad-god who doesn’t understand who he is anymore- let alone consent.
Heal him. Kill him. I don’t care which.
Plus some sort of reform to Nidal was sort of inevitable once they moved "slavery" below the Pathfinder baseline. Like Nidal used to buy a bunch of slaves from Cheliax, not to put them to work at menial jobs, but to torture them to death in tribute to their dark god. That sort of thing is going to have to stop, and the most natural way to do it is "Get ZK out of the way". Nidal doesn't have to be nice, but if we put Goth Shelyn in charge instead of her brother, we can at least have "exploring the extremes where pain and pleasure blend" have a safeword and involve consent.
Plus some sort of reform to Nidal was sort of inevitable once they moved "slavery" below the Pathfinder baseline. Like Nidal used to buy a bunch of slaves from Cheliax, not to put them to work at menial jobs, but to torture them to death in tribute to their dark god. That sort of thing is going to have to stop, and the most natural way to do it is "Get ZK out of the way". Nidal doesn't have to be nice, but if we put Goth Shelyn in charge instead of her brother, we can at least have "exploring the extremes where pain and pleasure blend" have a safeword and involve consent.
100%
Besides! This allows further differentiation of the Plane of Shadows from D&D, and gives another potential best friend for Calisteria.
Huh…we seem to actually have a lot of women-deities fulfil this role already though. Edit: someone beat me to that remark.
Either way- Nidal needs a revamp. Time to push those edgewalkers right off their now-comfortable platform.
I feel wouldn't Zon Shelyn/Goth Shelyn in that interpretation feel like she is intruding on Calistria's domain a bit
Emo Goth was never the vibe I got from Calistria. Calistria's more the girlboss gaslight gatekeep type, she's more about hurting everybody that crosses her than dealing with her own darkness through her art.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I figure Goth Shelyn would be more about art than love. That's the aspect of Shelyn I liked more, personally.
But Shelyn was always more the goddess of courting and romance than the goddess of doing it. Many goths are incredibly romantic at heart.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I figure Goth Shelyn would be more about art than love. That's the aspect of Shelyn I liked more, personally.
But Shelyn was always more the goddess of courting and romance than the goddess of doing it. Many goths are incredibly romantic at heart.
*nods nods*
Definitely a deity of aftercare.
What would Zon-Shelyn's holy symbol be? I'm picturing a rose with a very prominent thorny stem. Beauty and pain.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Zon-Shelyn was introduced as something linked to an SF2 Iconic, so I’m not sure I expect them to appear in PF2 any time soon - I think the crowds for and against the move are getting ahead of themselves.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The crowds around here are almost always ahead of themselves.
If we only get one survivor between the twins, my money' Zon-Shelyn.
Has it been confirmed in any way shape or form? Where are people getting the idea from?
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Has it been confirmed in any way shape or form? Where are people getting the idea from?
Chk Chk the new iconic for Starfinder 2e, worships Zon-Shelyn. It's from the Starfinder 2e blog announcement. That's about all we know other than a comment from Thurston Hillman saying "Point of order. People still worship Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn in Starfinder. :)"
Point of order .There was also an announcement ( I don't remember where ) that a god is going to die. we don't know who or if it's related to the making of Zon-Shelyn
The crowds around here are almost always ahead of themselves.
I have no idea how this will affect Starfinder 3e yet, but I'm very sure that in Starfinder 4e, the two gods will split up again. That opens up the possibility for another family reunion in Starfinder 5e. Too soon to predict with will happen in Starfinder 6e.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hm. Zon-Shelyn could be a new pantheon, since SF2 is picking up PF2 mechanics. Would make sense if Thurston's comment is taken to literally mean they are both independently kicking around in SF2's timeline.
EDIT: ...which is brought up in that thread. I should read more fully sometimes. /sigh
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the crowds for and against the move are getting ahead of themselves.
I just think the Shelyn/Dou-Bral story has to end eventually. The potential endings are:
1- ZK wins, by convincing his sister that he's right.2- Shelyn wins, by freeing her brother from the corruption that afflicts him.
3- Something in the middle.
I think 3 is the only one that sets up new stories, which ought to be our goal here.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's been stated that Starfinder and Pathfinder can't be assumed to have the same canon. I'd be shocked if a minor bit of lore from Starfinder would lead to a complete revamp in Pathfinder.
Also, I just plain don't want to see Zon-Shelyn as a core 20 deity in Pathfinder. We already have enough dark edgy not-evil goddesses, with Calistria, Arazni, and Nocticula (and maybe Pharasma for that matter). The way I see it, Zon-Shelyn would reduce the diversity of archetypes for characters to emulate or worship.
I think the crowds for and against the move are getting ahead of themselves.I just think the Shelyn/Dou-Bral story has to end eventually. The potential endings are:
1- ZK wins, by convincing his sister that he's right.
2- Shelyn wins, by freeing her brother from the corruption that afflicts him.
3- Something in the middle.I think 3 is the only one that sets up new stories, which ought to be our goal here.
This however assumes that only their demise would create new stories. There are plenty of other gods whose demise could lead to just as much story potential.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Plus some sort of reform to Nidal was sort of inevitable once they moved "slavery" below the Pathfinder baseline. Like Nidal used to buy a bunch of slaves from Cheliax, not to put them to work at menial jobs, but to torture them to death in tribute to their dark god. That sort of thing is going to have to stop, and the most natural way to do it is "Get ZK out of the way". Nidal doesn't have to be nice, but if we put Goth Shelyn in charge instead of her brother, we can at least have "exploring the extremes where pain and pleasure blend" have a safeword and involve consent.I hope not. Last thing we need is for all the evils of the world to get resolved before our new characters arrive.Were they ever going to do anything with Zon-Kuthon other than "resolve things with Shelyn". Like the entire premise of Nidal is "it's horrible, but poses absolutely no threat to anybody who doesn't cross their borders."
Plus, elevating Ydersius to the main stage (what with the Snekmen being the major darklands threat) is a lot more interesting than ZK was from a metaplot perspective.
I agree that Ydersius is more interesting than Zon Kuthon.
I also dislike the way Zon Kuthon continues to emphasize the trope in fantasy settings that BDSM-iconography and interest is inherently ‘evil’. He’s just one crazy mad-god who doesn’t understand who he is anymore- let alone consent.
Heal him. Kill him. I don’t care which.
I do not care one bit for Zon-Kuthon as he is usually portrayed.
But Nidal I love.
Nidal is the piece of Golarion that reflects the Midnight setting I also loved.
It is the place where Good and Light failed eons ago. And where the Dark Lord has been reigning for millenia.
It is what would happen if Sauron or Palpatine or any other Evil BBEG won.
I do not want it gone, nor deeply altered. Its feeling of ages-old Evil land that predates all over and its people who developed their civilization under this terrible reality really enhances Golarion IMO.
It's been stated that Starfinder and Pathfinder can't be assumed to have the same canon. I'd be shocked if a minor bit of lore from Starfinder would lead to a complete revamp in Pathfinder.
Yes, Zon-Shelyn makes sense as a SF1 -> SF2 change.
This is Shelyn's mention in the SF CRB.
Of Zon-Kuthon’s sibling, Shelyn, much remains unknown. Though not silent, her responses to worshipers are infrequent and fractured, leading some to believe she’s traveling beyond the known multiverse in search of a cure for her brother’s ancient, yet still mysterious condition.
It would make sense for this quest to be resolved in the interim between SF1 and SF2. No connection or involvement needed for these two in the upcoming PF2 godpalooza.
I really do think Asmodeus has a target on his back, and I'm increasingly not sure Hell needs a deity representing it in the core pantheon.
Norgorber can inherit a lot of the tyrant role, Abadar handles the legalism, there's no shortage of other powers to make a terrible pact with (Nidal, famously has a contract with Zon-Kuthon), and we then get a slot on the pantheon. Would folks be okay with it being someone other than a fiend getting that promotion?
Ydersius makes good sense if the Sekmin are rising as a threat, and is my favorite of the options out there so far.
And there was a Great War…
In Hell.