It's not the pick I'd have gone with, but it's also just a game. Yeesh.
Personally I'm interested to see what happens to Gorum's armor...it's one of the more iconic things about him and it seems like something along those lines could be a neat artifact.
"a desperate quest to prevent the greatest threat Golarion has ever known from escaping an ancient prison"
Oh. Hi, Rovagug.
I actually kind of like that aout Golarion. Like, in a lot of other fantasy universes, that would be teasing some new dreadful Sealed Evil In A Can. Here? It's just really obviously Rovagug.
Well. It should be Rovagug at least. Because he is.
In practice it might be that new spawn of Rovagug teased in the stream. Or at the very least that thing might figure prominently in a Rovagug release arc.
River drake: lost 2 points of AC, otherwise unchanged
Flame drake: unchanged
Jungle drake: unchanged
Wyvern: damage from venom cut in half, otherwise unchanged
Frost drake: mist breath now lasts until the breath weapon recharges rather than having its own 2d4 round duration, otherwise unchanged
Desert drake: electricity resistance reduced from 16 to 10, also now has resist 10 fire. Attacks at +19 rather than +20. Fangs is now 2d12+10 rather than 2d12+8+1d6 electricity, claw is now 2d8+10 rather than 2d10+8. Sandstorm breath now deals slashing rather than electricity damage and the cloud lasts until the breath weapon recharges rather than having its own 1d4 round duration.
Some AC debuffs on river drake, wyvern lost a ton of venom damage, frost drake's zones were simplified, and desert drake lost some attack bonus and damage.
Elementals:
Air Elementals
-------------------------------------
Zephyr hawk: AC decreased by 3, otherwise unchanged
Living whirlwind: gained the forceful winds action, otherwise unchanged
Phade (invisible stalker): gained the new hush action, otherwise unchanged
Elemental hurricane: breath weapon renamed to gale breath, otherwise unchanged
Earth Elementals
-------------------------------------
Sod hound: unchanged
Living landslide: gained new sliding earth action, otherwise unchanged
Stone mauler: unchanged
Elemental avalanche: gained new grinding stones action, otherwise unchanged
Fire Elementals
-------------------------------------
Cinder rat: gained water weakness, otherwise unchanged
Living wildfire: gained water weakness and spreading flames action, otherwise unchanged
Firewyrm: gained water weakness and breath weapon changed to "breath fire". Otherwise unchanged.
Elemental inferno: gained water weakness, otherwise unchanged
Water Elementals
-------------------------------------
Brine shark: unchanged
Living waterfall: unchanged
Quatoid: unchanged
Living tsunami: unchanged
Water weakness was added to fire elementals, a few new abilities here and there to flesh them out, zephyr hawk lost some AC without gained compensatory hp.
Genies:
Jann (janni): wish ritual vs. wish spell is huge. Attacks now have "all made one" which is some bonus elemental damage at the cost of base damage, it works out to the same total damage though. Fire resistance replaced with variable elemental resistance.
Jaathoom (djinni): gained "naturally invisible" ability at the cost of 16 hp. Spell names remastered. Otherwise unchanged.
Jabali (shaitan): lost electricity resistance, spell names remastered. Otherwise unchanged.
Faydhaan (marid): -1 to damage rolls on strikes. Hydraulic torrent boosted to 5th rather than 4th level. Spell names remastered. Lost rush of water action, gained gift of hospitality instead.
Ifrit (efreeti): remastered spells, gained "wings of flame" action rather than a fly speed.
Minor marid debuff, jaathoom changed how its defenses work, ifrits get a fire aura. Mostly a wash I'd think.
Giants:
Marsh giant: spit rather than rock, which deals 5d6 rather than 2d6+14 (lower damage), hook shake is now drowning hook and doesn't require water or a check (it's just a Fort save). Twist the hook deals 2d6 rather than 3d6 persistent damage. Otherwise unchanged.
Stone giant: catch rock is now swat projectile and allows it to block any projectile, plus throw back as part of the reaction. Throw rock is now create boulder and doesn't require an existing rock. Otherwise unchanged.
Frost giant: throws icicles rather than rocks, which deal 2d8 + 3d6 rather than 2d10+9 (about the same) but are at -2 to hit compared to previously. Otherwise unchanged.
Fire giant: makes flame rather than rock attacks, which deal 4d6 plus 2d6 persistent instead of 2d8+13+1d6 (lower damage) but are at -2 to hit compared to previously.
Cloud giant: throw rock replaced with crushing cloud. It's basic a fort save rather than attack, deals slightly lower damage.
Shadow giant: shadowcloak is now just the blur spell, but pretty much the same. Lost rock attacks, instead gained shadow chain, which extends their reach to 60 ft and forces a Will save vs. being teleported near the giant.
Rune giant: lost rock attacks, gained an additional invoke rune option that increases reach to 60 feet only during giant's turn.
Rock attacks were swapped out for more flavorful options (which usually have -2 to hit compared to the previous rock attacks). Marsh giant damage mildly nerfed.
Goblins:
Goblin warrior: unchanged
Goblin commando: unchanged
Goblin pyro: spell names changed: burning hands to breathe fire, produce flame to ignition, tanglefoot to tangle vine. Otherwise unchanged
Goblin war chanter: spell names changed, otherwise unchanged.
Unchanged.
Graveknight:
Graveknight: devastating blast changed from 6d12 to 11d6 (basically the same), wording of the curse changed a little.
Pretty much unchanged.
Lich:
Lich: siphon life replaced paralyzing touch, inflicts drained and gives lich temp hp rather than paralyzing. Spell names swapped to remaster versions. Otherwise unchanged.
Paralyzing touch was replaced, that's all.
Onis:
Mountain oni (onidoshi): lost 1 point of AC, hit points increased (even accounting for the lost regeneration), tetsubo is fairly equivalent to the old falchion attack. Lost its innate spells except for invisibility.
Snow oni (ice yai): lost 1 point of AC, increased hit points even without lost regeneration. Chilling combo (double punch) no longer allows a save vs. slow. No longer slows with ice missile, which now deals 3d10+4+1d6 rather than 2d10+12 (deals 1 point more now on average). Lost its innate spells except for invisibility.
Caldera oni (fire yai): lost 1 point of AC, increased hit points accounting for lost regeneration. Katana lost 2 points of damage. New ash form and dance of burning war. Lost its innate spells except for invisibility.
Island oni (water yai): lost 1 point of AC, increased hit points. Spear lost 5 points of damage. Lost enveloping kimono. Gained swallow whole and some new abilities. Lost its innate spells except for invisibility.
Massively overhauled. All of them lost a point of AC but got some more hp (even accounting for regen), fire and water lost damage bonuses. New abilities. Spirit weakness rather than regeneration shutoffs or fire/cold weakness on ice/fire yai. Lost all of their innate spells. Snow oni double punch no longer gives a save and also no longer has a slowing ranged attack.
Proteans:
Voidworm: chaotic damage rolled into attacks, spell names remastered.
Azuretzi: hit points reduced by 10, lost chaotic damage but only gained +1 to damage rolls in exchange, constrict DC reduced by 1 and constrict damage increased by +1
Keketar: hit points reduced by 30, chaotic damage rolled into attacks (same damage), prismatic sphere swapped for unfathomable song, spell names otherwise swapped to remaster.
Keketar and azuretzi lost some hp without replacement, chaotic damage was mostly rolled into attacks so they suffered less than fiends, celestials, aeons, or psychopomps did.
Psychopomps:
Nosoi: spirit touch changed to shepherd's touch, otherwise unchanged
Cythnigot: removed chaotic damage. Lost lawful weakness. Otherwise unchanged.
Gongorinan: new
Augnagar: lost lawful weakness, chaotic damage removed, bleed damage on strikes reduced from 4d6 to 3d6. Rotting curse DC is reduced by 2 and stage 2 now only triggers when the target takes slashing or piercing damage.
Thulgant: lost lawful weakness, chaotic damage removed, quandary swapped for divine aura.
Lost their chaotic damage and lawful weaknesses, both without replacement. Few spell swaps, augnagar got a damage debuff.
All in all, it's mostly debuffs, especially to celestials/fiends/monitors, who lost damage across the board with spirit damage (except for some proteans and archons) and some individual ones (augnagar and tabellia) also took some additional debuffs to damage. There are also some AC and damage debuffs. Onis got massively overhauled, gaining more hit points, spirit weakness and losing most of their innate spells and regeneration. Most things weren't actually changed and were just scrubbed for OGL stuff.
If people have requests for specific monsters that I didn't cover here, go ahead and ask! I'll try to look at them and compare.
Inspired my dragon thread (here: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs47mjo?Remaster-Dragon-AC) I decided to look at the rest of Monster Core. Haven't done the entire thing, but I targeted the most iconic monsters plus some random animals, and compared premaster and post-remaster versions.
Here are my results, below:
Aeons:
Arbiter: lost chaotic weakness, lost bonus lawful damage, remastered spells, otherwise unchanged.
Axiomite: lost chaotic weakness, lost bonus lawful damage, remastered spells, otherwise unchanged.
Akhana: new
Pleroma: chaotic weakness replaced with generic weakness to spirit, energy touch lost bonus lawful damage and has -2 to damage rolls compared to before, spell attack bonus went up by +2, generate sphere is massively clarified but has same damage and DCs
Chaotic weakness and lawful damage stripped, otherwise pretty similar. Some of the high level ones have spirit weakness instead.
Alghollthus:
Ugothol: remastered grab means restrained is easier to inflict for Drink Blood. Remaster spell names. Otherwise unchanged.
Vidileth: slime swapped to shape flesh, which inflicts a choice of conditions rather than an affliction. Remastered spell names.
No real changes.
Angels:
Cassisian: good damage removed, spell remastered, otherwise unchanged.
Choral: bonus good damage removed, slam went from base 3d6+1 to 2d6+4 (same effective damage), spells remastered, otherwise unchanged.
Balisse: good damage removed, spell remastered, otherwise unchanged.
Tabellia (astral deva): holy rune updated, attack went from 2d8+22 to 2d8+14 base damage (huge drop).
Pretty much just good damage stripped off.
Archons:
Zoaem (lantern archon): damage was changed to all fire, but didn't lose any damage in the switch. Some new abilities like "Behold!". Gained all-around vision.
Qarna (hound archon): lost 5 hp. Gained all-around vision. Strikes deal much less damage than before (1d12+6 down to 1d8+6) but now has a ranged attack. Removed additional good damage. New abilities. Remastered spell names.
Rekhep (shield archon): gained all-around vision, lost bonus good damage on attacks but holy lance is now a holy weapon which compensates for it. Now deals 2d8+11+1d4 rather than 2d6+10+1d6, which is actually a damage boost. No longer literally uses shield block, has a separate ability for that. Now has terrifying smite ability. Remastered spell names.
Giylea (wheel archon): replaced good damage with fire damage. Gained detonate magic instead of antimagic field, remastered spells. Also gained archon's protection (retributive strike).
Overall, gained all-around vision and lost bonus good damage on only qarna (hound armor) and aesra (legion archon). Not a lot of other changes.
Azatas:
Lyrakien: removed bonus good and chaotic damage otherwise unchanged.
Gancanagh: swapped mirror image for sure footing, bonus good damage removed, remaster spells.
Kanya (lillend): hit points reduced by 10, bonus chaotic damage swapped for sonic damage and bonus good damage removed. Bunch of spells changed as well as remastered (gained charm, clear mind, swapped heal to soothe, lost hallucinatory terrain, lost darkness, gained courageous anthem and an ability that makes it into +2 rather than +1.
Aeolaeka: lost bonus good damage, remastered spells, liberate the earth increased in DC from 32 to 35.
Some hp changes and ability DC swaps, going for both nerfs and buffs. Some new abilities on lillend/kanya. Chaotic and good damage got ripped off and not replaced.
Bears:
Grizzly bear: AC reduced by 2, hp increased by +14
Cave bear: unchanged
Grizzly bear lost some AC and gained some hp.
Beetles:
Flash beetle: unchanged
Giant stag beetle: unchanged
No changes. I know you were super worried.
Boars:
Boar: AC reduced by 3, hp increased by 10
Daeodon: unchanged
Boar lost some AC in exchange for hp, daeodon unchanged.
Leukodaemon: unchanged except lost evil damage, spell names remastered.
Astradaemon: jaws attack now deals d6s rather than d8s, took -1 to damage rolls on all attacks, claw now deals 2d6+8 rather than 3d6+9, lost bonus evil damage.
Lost evil damage without replacement, astradaemon got majorly nerfed.
Demons:
Pusk (dretch): hit points reduced by 9 to 36, lost bonus evil damage, gained +1 to base damage rolls on strikes. Otherwise unchanged.
Brimorak: spell names changed to remaster, lost bonus evil damage, otherwise unchanged.
Succubus: spell names changed to remaster, lost bonus evil damage, otherwise unchanged.
Omox: slime ball to hit reduced by 1, base damage reduced by 2 and lost bonus evil damage on all attacks. Stinking cloud swapped to toxic cloud, which used to be cloudkill rather than stinking cloud. Remaster spell name swap.
Seraptis: new
Shemhazian: lost bonus evil damage on attacks, remaster spell name swap. Otherwise unchanged.
Vrolikai: now level 20. Gained +1 to AC, +1 to Fort saves, +2 to Reflex saves, and +3 to Will saves. Also gained 65 hp. Gained +2 to all attack rolls, +1 to spell save DCs, +2 to strike damage rolls, lost bonus evil damage. Mindwarping DC unaffected. Lost death stealing gaze. Overall, went from moderate hp to slightly higher proportionally moderate hp, kept extreme attack bonus, armor class went from High + 1 to just High + 0.
Evil damage removed without replacement. Omox majorly nerfed, vrolikai upgraded to level 20 and it mostly seems to fit the bill with some minor proportional numbers nerfs.
Devils:
Ort (lemure): lost evil damage, otherwise unchanged
Vordine (barbazu): barbazu in terms of hp, AC, and saves. Attacks at the same bonus but dramatically lower damage, no infernal wounds, no evil damage. Lost 5th level dimension door.
Sarglagon: lost evil damage on attacks, otherwise unchanged.
Phistophilus: wish spell swapped with wish ritual and lost evil damage on attacks. Otherwise unchanged.
Gylou: lost bonus evil damage. Otherwise unchanged.
Nessari: literally pit fiends, loses the evil damage on attacks, remastered spell names. Otherwise unchanged.
No real changes except vordine wholly replaces barbazu and loses evil damage without replacement.
Dinosaurs:
Compsognathus: unchanged
Velociraptor: unchanged
Deinonychus: lost 2 points of AC, otherwise unchanged
Pachycephalosaurus: lost 2 points of AC, otherwise unchanged
Hadrosaurid: unchanged
Anklyosaurus: unchanged
Stegosaurus: unchanged
Triceratops: unchanged
Tyrannosaurus: unchanged
Brontosaurus: unchanged
Deinonychus and pachycephalosaurus lost some AC, otherwise unchanged.
Newest crackpot theory : the Bound Prince stirs. Szuriel is terrified that he will free himself and destroy the Riders (including herself).
With help from other deities (Norgorber is the usual suspect, maybe Moloch too), she devises a ritual that will unleash war on the whole Universe so that she can gorge herself on power and hopefully be able to survive the Oinodaemon's wrath.
The ritual needs her to kill a deity though. She chooses Gorum because he has long been a rival of hers, should be easy to get in a fight and, with his death, War will be even more unconstrained than before. Not to mention he would be the one most profitting from Universal War instead of herself if he was still alive.
I don't think Szuriel would do this out of terror. But I can believe that the Bound Prince will put in an appearance, they've been hinting at that for a while.
I think what I'm most interested in is what could kill Gorum? Not so much who, but by what means? I think someone mentioned there was black smoke or shadow coming off of his armor; I wonder if that's important somehow.
Back whispy smoke coming out of a massive whole in the front of his chest/armor and the only remnant of his greatsword is the pommel and handle with crossgard shattered and the blade nowhere in sight except for one tiny little red chip. He is slumped to his knees with his chin on his clavicle and there are cracks radiating out from the whole in the armor. The armor and helmet itself looks empty and black inside almost like Aphonse from FMA as if when he died only the armor was left behind.
Is that from the stream?
The words are mine. There was actual art on the stream which is what I made the description from.
They are gonna make a wrap-up blog post tomorrow so the art will likely be there but I took a screenshot if you can't find it yourself I can send you the screen on discord or email if you pm me.
Oh yes, I meant the art. I'm sure it'll be on the wrap-up post/inevitable YouTube compilation!
I think what I'm most interested in is what could kill Gorum? Not so much who, but by what means? I think someone mentioned there was black smoke or shadow coming off of his armor; I wonder if that's important somehow.
Back whispy smoke coming out of a massive whole in the front of his chest/armor and the only remnant of his greatsword is the pommel and handle with crossgard shattered and the blade nowhere in sight except for one tiny little red chip. He is slumped to his knees with his chin on his clavicle and there are cracks radiating out from the whole in the armor. The armor and helmet itself looks empty and black inside almost like Aphonse from FMA as if when he died only the armor was left behind.
Gorum's Anathema are a little disruptive to playing with a party, so I'm content to see him gone - but honestly, his blood and broken armor being the source of all these Exemplars and their little relics is really perfect. Szuriel seemingly being the one to do the dead fits as War bests War; I know the Horsemen fans have been waiting ages for this.
I'm very content. Still hoping Iomedae loses that arm, though.
Oh I'd be thrilled to bits about that. Szuriel is easily one of the best Horsemen, and the Horsemen have never gotten an AP in the sun...
It does sort of feel sort of like a "not with a bang but a whimper" sort of situation, and I mean that with the utmost respect for people who like Gorum.
Ironically I may want Gorum to be the one that bites it even if I don't think it'll happen, because I don't care about him and almost nobody I know does either.
I can't believe that it actually was him.
This is...well. I'm both relieved and disappointed honestly.
There are only 4 remaster dragons that deal nothing but damage with their breath weapons, and I'm not going to get into the weeds by trying to compare pure damage breath weapons against breath weapons that also have a status effect (unless the effect is comparatively small and doesn't happen all the time). These are adamantine, diabolic, empyreal, and horned dragons. Below are comparisons for each age category, with any differences noted in parentheticals.
Adamantine:
Dragons with same level progression (young at 9, adult at 13, ancient at 18): blue, bronze, magma, sky
Young adamantine: DC 28, 8d8 ~ 36
Young blue: DC 28, 5d12 ~ 32.5 (but line rather than cone)
Young bronze: DC 28, 6d12 ~ 39 (but line rather than cone)
Young magma: DC 28, 5d6 + 3d12 ~ 37
Young sky: DC 28, 5d12 ~ 32.5 (but burst rather than cone)
Adult adamantine: DC 33, 11d8 ~ 49.5
Adult blue: DC 33, 9d12 ~ 58.5 (but line rather than cone)
Adult bronze: DC 33, 8d12 ~ 52 (but line rather than cone)
Adult magma: DC 33, 9d6 + 4d12 ~ 57.5
Adult sky: DC 33, 7d12 ~ 45.5 (but burst rather than cone)
Ancient adamantine: DC 40, 15d8 ~ 67.5
Ancient blue: DC 40, 12d12 ~ 78 (but line rather than cone)
Ancient bronze: DC 40, 12d12 ~ 78 (but line rather than cone)
Ancient magma: DC 40, 10d6 + 5d12 ~ 67.5 (plus potential ongoing damage)
Ancient sky: DC 40, 9d12 + 2d12 ~ 71.5 (but burst rather than cone)
Same DCs across the board, some other breath weapons have much higher damage but also trade it in for a different shape. I'd say adamantine's breath weapon is a tad weaker than some of these but not by much.
Diabolic:
Dragons with same level progression (young at 11, adult at 15, ancient at 20): gold and sovereign only.
Young Sovereign: DC 30, 12d6 ~ 42
Young Diabolic: DC 30, 12d6 ~ 42
Young Gold: DC 31, 11d6 ~ 38.5
Adult Sovereign: DC 36, 16d6 ~ 56
Adult Diabolic: DC 36, 16d6 ~ 56
Adult Gold: DC 37, 15d6 ~ 52.5
Ancient Sovereign: DC 43, 21d6 ~ 73.5
Ancient Diabolic: DC 42, 21d6 ~ 73.5
Ancient Gold: DC 44, 20d6 ~ 70
Pretty much identical, gold trades a slightly higher save DC for slightly lower damage, sovereign is a point higher DC at ancient.
Empyreal:
Dragons with same level progression (young at 10, adult at 14, ancient at 19): red, silver, cloud, forest
Young empyreal: DC 29, 9d8 ~ 40.5
Young red: DC 30, 11d6 ~ 38.5
Young silver: DC 29, 10d6 ~ 35
Young cloud: DC 29, 11d6 ~ 38.5
Young forest: DC 29, 10d6 ~ 35 (plus crit fail effect)
Adult empyreal: DC 34, 12d8 ~ 54
Adult red: DC 36, 15d6 ~ 52.5
Adult silver: DC 36, 15d6 ~ 52.5
Adult cloud: DC 36, 15d6 ~ 52.5
Adult forest: DC 34, 14d6 ~ 49 (plus crit fail effect)
Ancient empyreal: DC 41, 16d8 ~ 72
Ancient red: DC 42, 20d6 ~ 70
Ancient silver: DC 42, 20d6 ~ 70
Ancient cloud: DC 41, 20d6 ~ 70 (plus damaging cloud)
Ancient forest: DC 41, 20d6 ~ 70 (plus crit fail effect)
Fairly similar as well, there are a few breath weapons with higher save DCs but most of them have slightly lower damage. Might be a very slight nerf at the highest levels, but it's pretty much identical.
Horned:
Dragons with same level progression (young at 8, adult at 12, ancient at 17): green, copper, brine, sea
Young horned: DC 25, 9d6 ~ 31.5
Young green: DC 25, 9d6 ~ 31.5
Young copper: DC 26, 8d6 ~ 28 (but line rather than cone)
Young brine: DC 26, 9d6 ~ 31.5 (but line rather than cone)
Young sea: DC 26, 9d6 ~ 31.5 (but burst rather than cone)
Adult horned: DC 31, 13d6 ~ 45.5
Adult green: DC 31, 13d6 ~ 45.5
Adult copper: DC 32, 13d6 ~ 45.5 (but line rather than cone)
Adult brine: DC 32, 13d6 ~ 45.5 (but line rather than cone)
Adult sea: DC 32, 13d6 ~ 45.5 (but burst rather than cone)
Ancient horned: DC 37, 18d6 ~ 63
Ancient green: DC 37, 18d6 ~ 63
Ancient copper: DC 38, 18d6 ~ 63 (but line rather than cone)
Ancient brine: DC 38, 18d6 ~ 63 (but line rather than cone)
Ancient sea: DC 38, 18d6 ~ 63 (but burst rather than cone)
Green is literally the exact same, the others trade in a slightly higher DC but are also bursts and lines. You can argue bursts are better, but it's a minor nerf if it's a nerf at all.
All in all, breath weapon DC and damage is essentially the same as pre-remaster, maybe a little bit worse (but only a little, maybe by a point of DC and a few points of damage). So while strike attack bonus, strike damage, AC, and hit points have all declined a bit, breath weapons are similar.
Premaster
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Linnorms: all their attacks are at the Extreme value for attack bonus. Their Jaws attacks deal above Extreme-rated damage including linnorm venom, and High damage without the venom.
Normal dragon Jaws attacks are almost universally at High attack bonus, with exceptions noted below.
Young brass, young black, adult black, adult bronze, ancient red, ancient black, ancient brine, ancient sea, ancient magma, ancient sky, and ancient silver are instead at High + 1.
Normal dragon Jaws generally deal a little bit above High damage, sometimes edging up to Extreme territory.
Remaster
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Linnorms are totally unchanged in any way, shape, or form (except tangentially via the remaster grab rules, which makes their opportunity attack absolutely devastating if it restrains).
Diabolic, adamantine, and horned dragons have a Jaw attack at High attack bonus, and High damage. The exception is ancient adamantine which attacks at High + 1.
Conspirator and empyreal dragons attack at High - 1 across all age categories.
Fortune, mirage, and omen dragons attack at Moderate rather than High attack bonus.
Damage on remastered dragon bite attacks is somewhere between High and Moderate. Conspirator dragons are actually a little below Moderate.
So generally apart from linnorms (which didn't change) remastered dragon offense received a major debuff, with around more than half the remastered dragons dropping by 1 or 2 points to hit. Damage generally dropped from Extreme/High to High/Moderate.
I'd be really interested to see a statistical analysis of how creature numbers shifted in Monster Core, especially AC. The monster building rules have always been inconsistent around whether high or moderate AC should be treated as the default for a combat focused creature, but AC always seemed to skew higher than the guidelines would suggest to me. I think that might have been an overall trend. People built monsters with higher numbers than the benchmarks would suggest, either by accident or because they wanted this particular monster to be memorable or special.
It feels like monster to hit and AC bonuses have gotten a bit lower, and most fiends lost their bonus evil damage entirely rather than having it converted to spirit damage. It wouldn't shock me if they are reining in monsters, either because they've got a more consistent feel for the math than they did when bestiary 1 was published or because of how hard many people perceive PF2 to be.
That'll be easiest to do once AoN updates with monster core - currently I don't have the ability to automate Monster Core statistics.
What I can tell you is that according to the GM core monster building guidelines, the average ACs for pre-remaster monsters are High, as a general rule. The average pre-remaster monster of every single level follows the guidelines for "High"-class AC.
If you're curious, average saving throws tilt towards the following:
Fortitude: Moderate for levels 1-5, transitioning to High or occasionally High - 1 at levels 6-24.
Reflex: High for levels -1, 0, and 1, transitioning to Moderate by level 2, and Moderate or Moderate - 1 thereafter.
Will: Low for levels 1-7, transitioning to Moderate by level 8 and staying there after that.
The balancing metric is hit points, and whether those changed to compensate. Resistance & Weaknesses also effect hit points so changes to those might factor it. One might add in Saves too, but those tend to resemble AC anyway (higher w/ lower hit points & vice-versa).
Since dragons are often boss monster, having higher than normal AC for their level makes it harder for PCs to consistently contribute. So it's probably better for a lower AC w/ higher h.p.; more consistency, though to less effect. Stable numbers aid players, something more important when dealing with boss creatures.
Without further ado...hp classifications for dragons pre and post remaster (yes, I built an actual computer tool for this, and yes, it includes things like weaknesses, resistances, and regeneration).
Premaster, they're literally all closest to "moderate" hp values (the buckets are really narrow, but they're closer to moderate than anything else). Every metallic, every chromatic, every sovereign, and every primal dragon of all age categories has hp about 10-30 points above moderate.
Except adult and ancient white dragons. Young are Moderate hp, but adult and ancient whites are High hp for whatever reason (likely because they only had moderate AC and every other type of dragon had more than that pre remaster). In addition, Tor Linnorms are closer to High than Moderate hit points.
Meanwhile in the remaster...
Linnorms of course didn't change AC or HP at all. Everything new has Moderate hp. In general they're within the actual Moderate range given in GM core, rather than being 10-30 hp over. Some of them are actually below the Moderate range but still closer to Moderate than Low.
The exception is ancient fortune dragons, which are closer to Low. So in general dragon hp went down from pre-remaster to post-remaster by about 10-30 hp.
Tl;dr dragon numerical defenses went down across the board, and the AC reduction is not compensated by higher hp. In fact, hp generally was cut by around 10-30 points.
Just discovered something fascinating, which is that dragon ACs appear to have gone down post-remaster.
Pre-remaster, dragon ACs could be sorted into a few different buckets, based on how closely they met the monster building guidelines for AC. For instance, all brass dragons (young, adult, and ancient alike) had the "High" value for their level, while all gold dragons were at the "High" value + 1. But not anymore!
Premaster AC buckets:
High + 0 for all age categories: magma, brine, sky, underworld, brass, blue, black
High + 0 except a random uptick to High + 1 at ancient: copper, bronze, sovereign, sea, forest
High + 1 for all age categories: gold only, and also all linnorms
Silver and red both were High or High + 1 across the board but spiked to Extreme - 1 at ancient.
Remaster Buckets:
Moderate + 0 for all age categories: mirage, omen, diabolic, adamantine
High + 0 for all age categories: empyreal, conspiracy, fortune
High + 1 for all age categories: horned and all linnorms
What do people think about this? Good change? Bad change? Barely noticeable change? It's only around -2 to AC, but it's pretty consistent across the board.
The version I have on archives of Nethys says wish spell not wish ritual which would limit it to spell effects and things of similar power. This takes becoming a god off the table but I also think " fulfilled to the letter by the contract devil" means that it would be limited to things a contract devil could accomplish which probably doesn't include divine ascension.
Yeah almost everything that used to say "wish spell" now says "wish ritual" post remaster, in Monster Core. Which has a whole of interesting and wild consequences. This includes the fact that now resurrecting someone damned for making a deal with an imp (by accepting the imp's Infernal Temptation ability) requires exactly as much effort as becoming a god.
Because the wish ritual explicitly lists divine ascension as an option for what you can do with it.
That's why I'm curious what people think and how they'd GM some of this stuff, since diabolic deals to become a god haven't been things before!
Hello Torag (something about recently softening on some deeply nasty edcits and anathema?), Sarenrae (You don't get to be chief deity of a massive empire without a few evangelist crusaders screaming your name), Erastil (defense of one's narrow folk community leaves ample scope for bad behavior)...
Sarenrae is known for re-enacting the horror of Biblical Sodom and Gomorrah on the sinful city of Gormuz and smiting it with her flaming scimitar, with the result that it literally burned a hole to Golarion's core.
I'm hoping for Abadar (goodbye capitalist god), Iomedae(goodbye evangelist crusaders), or Gorum (goodbye deity of murderhobos).
Dreading Shelyn (THE Pride deity), Lamashtu (Honest about monstrosity), Calistria (Honest about payback and lust positivity).
Not super-worried about Gozreh(Climate Change is a thing), Norgorber (Dirty political tricks), or Torag (Genocidal dirtbag who has a lot to answer for even if the stance has 'softened'.).
I'd argue Iomedae isn't really evangelical in any sense, though she does crusade against evil for sure. And that Gorum isn't especially a god of murderhobos. He's just the god of "fight the good fight!" which can be taken to both good and bad extremes.
Likewise, I can see Abadar serving a communist or socialist country just as readily as a capitalist one - there's still plenty of trade, banking, and law. The former USSR had central banks, after all, as do North Korea, Vietnam, and China, and all of them had/have fairly expansive legal systems.
For that matter, Abadar's temple performs a very similar role to that the Knights Templar did in medieval Europe or Islamic merchants did in the Middle East. Chinese merchants were involved in making loans, changing currency, and investing as early as the Tang and Song dynasties in the 900s. All of which predate not only capitalism but mercantilism as well.
Those might have been written without consideration of the updated grab rules I'm guessing
Oh they absolutely were. Well, more accurately, they were copied over from previous monsters without consideration of the grab rules.
Speaking of which.
Mentions of the wish spell seems to have just been copy-replaced in Monster Core with the wish ritual, rather than the 10th rank spell manifestation.
This means that people killed by norns and warsworns are now impossible to resurrect by means other than a Rare 10th level ritual capable of granting godhood, and that the ability to resurrect people slain by them is functionally no longer in the hands of the party unless the GM wants it to be. It also means that phistophilus devils can likely now grant divine ascension.
I'm not sure if this is an error but it does seem notably more punitive.
So I was looking through Monster Core today, and I came across this gem. Similar to janni, and unlike janni it's a lot easier for the GM to twist. But it's certainly thought-provoking...
Phistophilus devils are capable of granting wishes.
Monster Core wrote:
The contract devil produces an infernal contract for a single living mortal. This contract can grant a wide range of abilities and effects, akin to the power of a wish ritual but fulfilled to the letter by the contract devil.
To receive any of those benefits, the mortal must willingly sign its true name to the contract. At that point, the mortal’s soul is bound to the contract devil and Hell.
Wish states that divine ascension is one of the possible benefits:
Player Core wrote:
The target's wish can be anything, ranging from simpler wishes such as vast riches or the casting of a certain spell or ritual, to greater wishes like the destruction of an entire kingdom or ascension to divinity. The GM might decide a wish draws the attention of deities or other powerful creatures, leading to interference with the ritual or attempts to undo the wish. The power of the ritual alters reality to such a degree that even deities can't outright undo the wish, but they can react to the wish by sending servitors to take away the newly acquired riches, for example.
How would you run this as a GM, if a PC tried to sell their soul to a level 10 devil and become a god? Would it always go catastrophically wrong? Would the devil just refuse? What happens if you mind control the devil into thinking that this is a good idea? Are they even capable of making someone into a deity? Curious what people's thoughts are here, since it seems less "broken" and more "interesting".
There are several monsters with Grab/Knockdown/Push (and improved versions of the same) which do not have any sort of Athletics bonus that would allow them to actually use those abilities.
Went through with a CTRL + F for Grab, Knockdown, and Push:
Qarna archon (pg. 27) has Push but no Athletics training of any kind. This means it is rolling at only +3, at level 4. Its other skills are +10, and its attacks are at +14. It is unlikely to succeed on Pushes unless it rolls a natural 20.
Phistophilus devil (pg. 90) has Grab but no Athletics training. This means it will be attempting to Grab with a whopping +3 Str bonus (+3 Athletics), at level 10. Its normal attacks are rolling at +23, and most of its skills are around +20. It cannot succeed on most Grabs even with a natural 20.
Your precise vision range becomes 30 feet. Things are concealed from you and can't be mitigated. At moderate they become hidden from you past 30 feet. All this to generate a 10 foot aura of flame that does 4d6 damage to everyone including allies while doing 1d6 to you.
All this on a d8, weak defenses class that is better off operating from range.
It's not a good curse. The hidden condition past 30 feet makes it nearly unplayable unless everything operates within that 30 feet meaning hit by auras, gazes, and the like with a very average fort save.
You don't really know what's going on past 30 feet and can't target with spells past that range.
It's not worth the tradeoff and gets worse as you level.
I wouldn't call that fine. I'd call it an extremely weak, almost unplayable option. All of this from your curse for what? Master Reflexes? And some fairly weak focus spells? Seems not great.
Concealed is an easy problem to get around. You just have to use abilities that don't target eg area effect spells like fire ball, summons etc.
There is an exception for fire magic. The range of 30ft is workable for most modules anyway.
You get good focus abilities.
You just aren't thinking about the posibilities.
No. I played one. The curse when you can't see past 30 feet is terrible.
Their focus spells are good. But that past 30 foot blindness range is hugely exploitable, makes you off-guard to everything past 30 feet, and turns you into a relatively close combatant for auras, gazes, and the like.
As I told you, the damage aura affects your allies. You have to be within 10 feet of enemies for the aura to hurt anyone. So it creates a bad situation of having to be within 10 feet of an enemy and often within 10 feet of the martials. So you end up in this situation where you might be hurting your friends while...
Pardon me, don't mean to bring up a contentious topic, but back when we were discussing wizards and how martials tended to perform better, didn't you mention that long ranges were pretty rare in your group?
I do think a lot of PF 2e does happen in 30 foot boxes, so it's much less of an issue than it might otherwise be. But overall I would agree it's a major downside...
Tbh I wonder if there ever was a choice in the planning stages. Like on the one hand they could have planned it as, "this is an event where gods and immortals are fighting. We need a god to die in the opening scenes... let's narrow down some choices."
But it could have always been, "hey we have this idea for a story, we've done a lot with this god..what if we did this adventure/event that caps off their story"
Sometimes there are stories where you make multiple characters fit a role, sometimes there are stories that can only be told or only come about because a certain character exists.
I think a lot of people are afraid “this god dies” means, “no more stories will be told about this god,” while I think the exact opposite will be true. A god who dies is going to be in the center world building spotlight for a good long while.
I think a lot of players are specifically worried about “my character (or character concept) will no longer be playable, but I would be pretty surprised iif character options around a dead god are expected to just go away because the god dies. Aroden’s death was harsh for his followers, but it took a long time for his death to become fact for many people around Golarion (is he even certainly dead!?!). But his death story doesn’t have to be the same as another god. Imagine how much chaos and story potential there could be for a god to truly and completely be dead, but for their followers to still have access to their powers.
Honestly my concern is with changing up the pantheon right after player core (hell on wheels for a GM) and the fact that I think most of the existing gods are vastly more interesting alive.
The part of the Oracle class I really hope they don't lose is the incredibly awesome Oracle oracle feats the class had, like glean lore, vision of weakness and read disaster. Those kind of feats really made the class feel different from any other caster.
The feats are definitely the best part, aside from divine access. Hopefully that becomes part of the core chassis.
The new Diabolic Dragons, as they encompass everything I'd expect from a Big Bad Evil Dragon trope. Even better than the unmentionables of the same scale color, as after Smaug and Glaurung I expect European dragons to be more vile chessmasters than a brutish beast.
Diabolic dragons are great. Very classic, very fun, they even make dragonfire burn through fire resistance.
...Pathfinder 2e has set a lot of this on fire. The incapacitation keyword removes a lot of the absurdity of "so why are all creatures above level [X] immune to the same random set of things?" and standardizing it as a power level thing rather than being ad-hoc laundry lists of immunities. I must admit I'm a fan of that.
But... Aren't these immunities still here? Well, probably about half of them but still. Poisons? Definitely. Death effects? Quite enough I suppose. To status effects, mental things also happen I think. Besides, there're little so devastating effects now. (And few that remain [and still not insta-kills] some people would like to remove :-/)
By and large...no!
Look at fiends. No poison immunity. No cold/electricity/fire/acid resistance and vanishingly few immunities. Sure, devils still have fire immunity, but in PF 1e they also had acid and cold resistance, which is now gone. Gone is the demonic immunity to electricity plus resistance to acid, cold, and fire. Gone is daemonic immunity to acid, plus their resistance to cold, electricity, and fire. They're also no longer immune to disease (I'm sure someone cares).
Even the minor fiends got fixed. Poison immunity was removed across the board. Qlippoth aren't immune to cold anymore, and just have some minor mental resistance rather than flat immunity to mind-affecting. They also don't have electricity and fire resistance anymore. Divs lost literally every resistance and immunity they had. Asuras lost immunity to disease, and their electricity and acid resistance.
The same is true of celestials. Archons, angels, azatas, and agathions were stripped of every single resistance and immunity they had, which included immunity to petrification and lightning plus resistances to fire, cold, and sonic.
Aeons lost all their resistances and immunities, including to poison and critical hits (ewww). Proteans lost their acid immunity and replaced it with variable resistance along with their sonic and electricity resistances, meaning that they now have to pick one rather than just having them all up all the time. They also lost their amorphous form quasi-immunity to precision damage and critical hits. Psychopomps lost poison immunity and electricity and cold resistance.
This is so much kinder to blaster casters and kineticists it's not even funny.
But wait, there's more! No more spell resistance, which was a 20-50% fail chance - now it's just +1 to saves vs. magic, +2 at worst, which is like 5-10% - and even if they succeed on the saving throw, it's not like it totally negates the spell like spell resistance used to.
Constructs lost their immunity to Fortitude saves (except those affecting objects). Golems no longer have immunity to, like, SPELLS. PERIOD FULL STOP. That's sort of enormous. Undead lost their immunity to mind-affecting and Fortitude saving throws. That's half of all spells, roughly.
At this point, I want it to be Norgorber, fear it's Iomedae, and expect it to be Lamashtu.
I want it to be Gorum, fear it's Sarenrae, and expect...
Honestly, I've been wrong enough times on this one that I no longer have confidence in my own expectations.
That said, the evidence that I am capable of perceiving seems to suggest Sarenrae.
Ugh.
I'm concerned it'll be Iomedae, guessing it'll be...Sarenrae? I'm not really sure who they're going to pick. Hope it's not Sarenrae either, though.
Personally I'm not certain I want any of the remaining options to die - Zon-Kuthon would have been neat because of the implications for Shelyn, but the reverse is absolutely not true. We don't really need the designated edgelord of the Core 20 getting edgier because his gay sister died. Ick. That might have been novel in 1995, but today? Just no.
And if Calistria dies that's just horror movie logic. The girl who has the most sex dies first...
Ironically I may want Gorum to be the one that bites it even if I don't think it'll happen, because I don't care about him and almost nobody I know does either.
Yeah the Oracle needs some love, I cannot disagree with people who want to disconnected the curse and mystery enough though.
I also dislike the idea that some have paizo can't use downsides like curses in class design. It reminds me of the discussions surrounding precision damage/sneak attack, immunities/resistances (and wanting bypasses) and the toxicologist (poisoning undead, elementals, constructs, etc)
However, ancestors as written is just awful... I like me a wellspring mage/wild magic sorcerer... but the dice rolling each round is clunky, it actively limits what spells you can use and in actual play makes you have to build incredibly broadly as a jack of all trades, who can't actually use chunks of their trades at will so is objectively bad at it.
Lore Oracle is worse though, it's curse benefits are actively counteracted by its negatives. That and assurance for automatic knowledge does not scale right in high level play... it is like having flame Oracle but all your enemies get immunity to fire.
Honestly though, if I were to redesign the Oracle going down a Psychic route could have been interesting. The other class that requires focus point help :p
Personally I have, ah, feelings regarding the whole sneak attack/poison immunity thing.
In the abstract, I think it was fine - after all, you cannot poison something that isn't alive. You can't deal precision damage against the blob. Both of these are, to its credit, things Pathfinder 2e has kept.
The issue came in with high level monsters and the monsters that had immunity being overused in general. Why is every single Pathfinder 1e demon lord, horseman of the apocalypse, archdevil, spawn of Rovagug, great old one, and empyreal lord immune to ability damage (goodbye poisons...), ability drain, death effects, charms and compulsions, energy drain, and petrification? Because those are contractual boss immunities - if your boss didn't have them, they would be sad and die fairly quickly. So most of those abilities were essentially impossible to use at high level. Huge swathes the game essentially disappeared once you hit level 15 (well, so did most of the rest of the game) because every single accursed creature was immune.
Fiends, constructs, and undead were hugely overrepresented among the high level monsters as well, and all of them had immunity to poison (plus constructs and undead had their own further laundry lists of immunities, and fiends had silly quantities of energy resistances).
Abominations in 3.x were an entire creature type with contractual boss immunities plus a laundry list of energy resistances. Again, because "if they can't shrug off one-shot abilities, what are they even doing?" being the mentality of the design.
Pathfinder 2e has set a lot of this on fire. The incapacitation keyword removes a lot of the absurdity of "so why are all creatures above level [X] immune to the same random set of things?" and standardizing it as a power level thing rather than being ad-hoc laundry lists of immunities. I must admit I'm a fan of that.
Rovagug was never a good target to kill for PF2e... it is something that should happen with an edition change, when it is fine to invalidate all the old lore and books.
And even then, imo it would destroy one of the better storytelling conceits the writers of Golarion have when it comes to balancing the experience of humans in a world where real gods exist and have serious godly powers.
It was never going to be given the level of attention it needed to be given, so it is right that it didn't happen imo.
I think D&D's Forgotten Realms (not to mention comic books) have pretty conclusively proven what an incoherent nightmarish mess "rewrite the entire setting every time there's an edition change" actually works out to be in practice.
Their god of magic has been killed and resurrected so many times she's like Schroedinger's Cat, you don't know if she's alive or dead until you open up the new edition.
Ya know..I don't like the idea of Arazni killing Iomedae, as I've seen some people suggest... But it could be poetic and I think fitting in character if let's say Iomoedae becomes corrupted In someway( let's say by Lamashtus hand if we want to take her absence as something signifigant) and Arazni takes her out so she didnt have to go through what shes been through.
I don't think that's gonna be what happens. But I think that could be a interesting angle.
I was thinking about this today.
Whenever I think of Arazni killing Iomedae it makes me think of this song.
Arazni will ascend to fill the open slot from the god's death. She is involved somehow.
What if Sarenrae intercedes to stop Arazni from killing Iomedae and thus dies instead? The rest of the War of Immortals is Arazni's war of revenge on the gods for standing by and doing nothing to prevent suffering. Motivated by a sort of anger and revenge on Aroden for failing and dying, thus failing her. Iomedae represents Aroden. The player's job then is to bring Arazni to a halt and, hopefully, rehabilitate her.
This fulfills the hint about the Prismatic Ray and gives Sarenrae a poetic death, and develops Arazni.
Arazni killing Sarenrae seems...unlikely.
I think Arazni is supposed to be likeable or at least not actively hated by the entire Pathfinder fanbase afterwards. Even if it was accidental (as if), even if Arazni apologized (not her style), repented (which I doubt), and did penance (never going to happen) I think at least 50% of players would hate her guts for murdering the iconic Pathfinder deity...
Especially if she then immediately ascended into the core 20 to take Sarenrae's place (no, not her literal place in terms of domains and stuff, but the open slot in the core 20). Icky implications on a million different levels.
A thought that just occurred to me: with a potential theme of "gods changing or not changing", I'd expect there to be some shuffling of domains amongst the surviving deities, in the aftermath. This would fulfil "changes to the Prismatic Ray", without necessarily someone dying or leaving or joining.
It'd also fit with "people might want to worship a pantheon of Torag's family, without Torag included", if Torag sufficiently changes so that he no longer fits the 'theme'. (Of course "Torag dies" would ALSO fit with that, but any given deity is more likely to survive than to die here.)
Actually, lemme scroll up and try to remember stuff... Erastil, I thiiink there'd been something like "he got caught because he was out playing at 'hunter', which he hadn't been for ages". CC, you can interpret it as "he shouldn't have tried to be something he wasn't (ie a god)". Irori, it was ABSOLUTELY him trying to ascend his nature that caused problems; Nethys wasn't trying to change HIMSELF but rather the stuff around him. Asmodeus... it wasn't HIM doing anything, but the whole prophecy had a thesis of "don't wish for what's gone; even if it seems good in the moment, it might cause disaster later".
So like the overall theme in these prophecies is "if change happens, it'll be horrible", but there might also be a secondary theme of "gods shouldn't try to go back to what they no longer are, nor to neglect or reject what they currently are".
EDIT: And it seems like Squiggit also had much the same points as me, just phrased it better (and posted it earlier).
Valid question here.
What even is the prismatic ray about, thematically? Is it defined by those three goddesses and their relationship? Destroying evil? Given there's a limited amount written about it, it's always been a little vague to me what it means and therefore what "changing" it would actually entail.
Does it mean them hooking up with someone else? Someone in the pantheon getting a new job? A copy-paste edit to swap "destroy evil" with "destroy unholy"?
I still feel like 'failure' or a god losing sight of their purpose is a big part of their
Erastil is out-hunted. His followers then fail to track down the beast that killed him.
Cayden loses his confidence, then is betrayed by his own friends and followers.
Pharasma, the god most tied to prophecy, crumbles under it and notably her systems and psychopomps are basically useless in maintaining any order without her.
Asmodeus' entire system is brought down and repudiated by his death.
Zon-Kuthon falls, but even beyond that we then see Dou-bral abandon his station and Shelyn destroy artistic creativity in the aftermath.
Even Urgathoa, who sort of 'wins' I think is notable in that she does more to further the cause of spreading undeath and upending Pharasma's order by dying than she ever did by unliving. Doubly ironic given that Urgathoa's existence is sort of an act of defiance against that unmaking. Urgathoa's assassin also essentially fails here, in that undeath runs rampant because of it.
... Even in this story: Obviously, the gods somewhat fail to protect Golarion, but Rovagug here fails utterly at being a reality-ending threat. The battle is described as intense, but the being who was supposed to devour all of reality failing to even destroy the single world his final battle takes place on is somewhat pathetic, don't you think?
etc.
One notable connection is also the idea of a god falling in part because they've stepped away from their original purpose.
Desna is specifically disparaged for turning her attention away from watching the stars. Erastil, likewise, stops being just a hunt god and becomes a god of family and community as well. Both of them fall in their respective prophecies perhaps in part because of the dilution of their domain.
We also see a similar theme of gods trying to step 'beyond' their station. Nethys tries to tamper with the fundamental laws of reality and dooms large parts of the world for it. Irori allows his selfish need for personal perfection...
Hey, you can't disparage Rovagug too much! He killed a wet rat and Bilbo's more competent cousin, after all...
But yes he's not really presented as a destroyer of worlds and devourer of gods in this, is he?
Poor Sarenrae, don't folks realize you can't make a safer omelet without utterly obliterating the fetid yolk of evil that was in the center of the world egg?
err or something like that.
But Rovagug is on the Safe list now, and instead of speculating on his death, dozens of fan fiction writers will instead debate whether or not the Dead Vault allows Conjugal visits and from whom! :)
I admit I was surprised that Sarenrae believes that "Imprisonment is not enough. Rovagug must die." given her status as goddess of redemption rather than, er, capital punishment.
Also given the LAST time she decided to personally punish things related to Rovagug rather than try a softer approach. Pit of Gormuz and all that.
Not that I think Rovagug actually could have been redeemed, it's just surprising given Sarenrae's history with the Beast. Good thing for all concerned it turned out a little better than last time...
I don't think it's particularly surprising, personally - she has an anathema of "fail to strike down evil", and has always been a deity focused on the possibility of redemption for those who are repentant and seek it, and the use of her scimitar and fire against those who reject the possibility of doing better and continue to harm innocents. Rovagug seems to fit the second category well - if she had the option to permanently kill Rovagug without risking the lives of those fighting him or on Golarion, I feel she happily would.
I suppose that's fair. It was just interesting because one of her primary motivations for being focused on redemption was the fallout from blowing up Gormuz. So I'd have expected a little more care.
Poor Sarenrae, don't folks realize you can't make a safer omelet without utterly obliterating the fetid yolk of evil that was in the center of the world egg?
err or something like that.
But Rovagug is on the Safe list now, and instead of speculating on his death, dozens of fan fiction writers will instead debate whether or not the Dead Vault allows Conjugal visits and from whom! :)
I admit I was surprised that Sarenrae believes that "Imprisonment is not enough. Rovagug must die." given her status as goddess of redemption rather than, er, capital punishment.
Also given the LAST time she decided to personally punish things related to Rovagug rather than try a softer approach. Pit of Gormuz and all that.
Not that I think Rovagug actually could have been redeemed, it's just surprising given Sarenrae's history with the Beast.
Deities not being up to par as been a common thread throughout these prophecies.
You know that's honestly fair. And hey. Sometimes you just need:
VENGEANCE SHALL BE BROUGHT UPON THE GUILTY! THERE SHALL BE NO EXCUSES! A CLEANSING FIRE WILL BURN THEM!
I'm with Arcaian on that. I haven't seen that many Oracles but when it comes to curses they were always the same (tongues being the indisputed winner at my tables).
Most players were not playing their Oracle for the Curse but for the Mystery. As such they were just taking the least affecting Curses which were always the same.
More combinations don't necessarily equate to more variety.
I will be happy if Shelyn is not the one to die next week. I mean sure there are others I could be bummed about dying but... please don't be Shelyn...
Unliking and re-liking this just so I can like it twice. Shelyn was the first love/beauty deity I ever saw in a major setting who wasn't overtly sexualized and who was unequivocally pro-queerness and beauty outside of accepted standards.
I will be ever so sad if we lose her
I once again beat my "PR suicide" drum on Shelyn dying precisely because of that. I've got a whole nine course meal of hats lined up if I'm wrong, of course.
(I think it's possible she dies and merges with her brother, or he takes up her mantle and becomes some sort of off-the-wall crazy love-and-pain composite queer deity, but it's a lot less likely than him dying and the reverse happening was)
Poor Sarenrae, don't folks realize you can't make a safer omelet without utterly obliterating the fetid yolk of evil that was in the center of the world egg?
err or something like that.
But Rovagug is on the Safe list now, and instead of speculating on his death, dozens of fan fiction writers will instead debate whether or not the Dead Vault allows Conjugal visits and from whom! :)
I admit I was surprised that Sarenrae believes that "Imprisonment is not enough. Rovagug must die." given her status as goddess of redemption rather than, er, capital punishment.
Also given the LAST time she decided to personally punish things related to Rovagug rather than try a softer approach. Pit of Gormuz and all that.
Not that I think Rovagug actually could have been redeemed, it's just surprising given Sarenrae's history with the Beast. Good thing for all concerned it turned out a little better than last time...
Two of my favored deities still have the guillotine hovering over their head and I’m growing increasingly nervous to see where it falls.
Seven of the ten remaining deities (Sarenrae, Torag, Iomedae, Shelyn, Abadar, Calistria, and Lamashtu) are big fan favorites. Of the 10 safe ones, we have the three major baddies (Asmodeus, Zonk, and Rovagug), three that it seems like most have something of a "meh" reaction to (Erastil, Irori, and Nethys) and four that I'd consider "fan favorites" (CC, Desna, Pharasma, and Urgathoa).
But what about Gorum! I'm so worried about Gorum!
(to all Gorum fans out there...if you exist: I jest, I jest, but he's a tad bland for my tastes. He, Gozreh, Abadar, and Norgorber are probably the safest of the remaining deities though. Re-enacting the global financial crisis of 2008 with the death of Abadar is a little too on the nose...)
I admit I'm not exactly surprised Rovagug isn't the one to get it. He was my "least likely to be killed" nominee, because killing him off would remove a very big villain from Golarion.
Also, I'm just a little concerned Shelyn, Sarenrae, and Desna talk about divine murder on their dates. Yikes.
I mean, more samey than every oracle of a given mystery having no choice in their curse at all?
Even if some 1e curses were chosen more frequently than others, there was at least the option to take a different one. I thoroughly enjoyed brainstorming oracle concepts and seeing how different mystery/curse pairings impacted the character as they developed.
That's not possible anymore.
Ah, that's not really what I meant by "samey".
I meant that in PF 1e, where you had total flexibility, everyone could (and many would) take the exact same curse. And many would take the exact same mystery. So there was like one viable build for the entire class.
Now at least if you pick a different mystery you can't pick the same curse.
Honestly I feel like the solution is to have more balanced options, but obviously that's not always possible.
PF1 Mysteries is not something I'd want to see coming back: Most Oracles were taking the same unimpactful curses so Oracles felt very samey. At least in PF2 you get the curse that is in line with your Mystery.
What I miss is PF1 long list of curses. But that'd ask for a lot of work to add much more Mysteries. Maybe there could be feats giving you some bonus but adding extra low-impact Curses to your character.
I used to play a flame mystery oracle in 1e. The first few revelations I picked up included fire resistance and the ability to see through flame/smoke/etc. Now, if I try to rebuild that character with the 2e ruleset, my character not only gets more and more visually-impaired as her curse progresses, but eventually starts spontaneously combusting as well, and there is nothing I can do to mitigate that without playing a completely different class.
It'd be easier to rebuild my old oracle as a fire kineticist or diabolic sorcerer in 2e than as an actual oracle - then again, the character was also styled as a professional demon hunter, and at this point, that basically boils down to "play something holy" (fat chance as an Asmodean from Cheliax), "use something cold iron" (so weapon user or a couple of metal spells from Rage of Elements), or thaumaturge.
Say what you will about the curse being more "thematic" now, but tying curses and mysteries together means oracles have lost a significant degree of customization flexibility.
Yeah this is very fair.
In some ways I can see the perks of customization and letting people pick their curse. If only min-maxers or optimizers are liable to pick the "least bad" curse anyway, then who cares how flavorful the "assigned" option is for flames/storms/death/whichever - on the other hand, I think most non-optimizer players are also liable to not pick something too crippling, because of course they are. So things could definitely get samey.
This is all true. Today is the reveal of the last 'safe deity' and then next week on Tuesday we reveal all the tie in stuff and who is actually getting killed.
I feel like the most likely deity to be announced safe tomorrow is Sarenrae. She's one of the two gods with an Iconic PC (Kyra and Seelah) and of the two, Kyra is by far the more well-known.
Are we just getting another "safe" announcement today? Or also the reveal of the person who's toast? I can't remember which week is which. I was assuming the former since the latter wouldn't make much sense.
