So I'm just getting into PF, and I'm trying to make sure I don't buy things that are redundant.
Is the monster core 2 the ORC equivalent of the Bestiary 2? And if so, should I hold off on buying Bestiary 3 and 4 in the hopes that monster cores 3 and 4 will be released?
I want stuff in the ORC "ruleset" (yes, I know they're compatible) rather than the OGL one when I can. Should I hold off on buying rulebooks unless they're ORC?
More or less: are all the OGL books soft confirmed to eventually be released as ORC books?
Monster Core took the most iconic creatures from Bestiary 1-3 and put them in one book and Remastered them. Monster Core 2 takes the next most iconic set of creatures from those 3 books and Remaster them as well.
Not sure how many more creatures will be left amongst the 3 books that might necessitate a 3rd Monster Core book. It's possible, but we'll have to wait and see.
(Also, PF2E only had Bestiary 1-3, not a 4th one. PF1E had Bestiary 1-6, for the record).
Hasn't Dead God's Hand been foretold for years now?
It was announced...
*checks the first forum post's date of posting*
About a month before 2nd Edition's launch date. And first delayed on December 9th for a bit, before it started being delayed a ton from Erik's need to focus on Lost Omens: Absalom: City of Lost Omens (which also got delayed later for a total of 2 years). So it's been delayed for (almost) the entirety of PF2E's existence. Which is almost 6 years now.
Additionally, there's something called a "Despair Dragon" that they'll talk about tomorrow, apparently more revolting than the Conspirator Dragon. My theory is they're the black sludgy dragon in the Draconic Codex cover. Also they mentioned something about it having a "very unique bladder", which... Concerns me lol.
Asked about the other dragon on the cover, and Luis answered in a roundabout way: They're saving its reveal for later, but the other cover dragon is apparently in Monster Core 2. And from the way he was talking about it, it is not the same as the alluded Despair Dragon.
We're to find out what the Despair Dragon looks like on the Creature Feature panel tomorrow, so let's check there and find out!
The Gallant Goblin's video covering Pathfinder Quest (which plays inbetween streamed panels) revealed it has a Time Dragon in that game! I wonder if we can expect a Time Dragon to also show up in the Draconic Codex?
Aaaaaand it's been confirmed in the Lost Omens panel! Time Dragons ARE in the Draconic Codex! And they are still purple, apparently.
The Gallant Goblin's video covering Pathfinder Quest (which plays inbetween streamed panels) revealed it has a Time Dragon in that game! I wonder if we can expect a Time Dragon to also show up in the Draconic Codex?
Are the rules for second edition availble online also or just in the books? Is there any character creator tool?
They'll be available online when the books come out. Right now, the SF2E rules won't be officially out until July 31st (even with Galaxy Guide already being out, they likely won't lauch the Archives of Nethys site until at least Player Core is out).
Wasn't the Dragonblood heritage accidentally leaked by Barnes & Noble too (specifically they'd put up a page like these for Player Core 2 when Paizo had been planning Dragonblood's reveal as a surprise on the book's actual release)?
That was Amazon that leaked that info from Player Core 2, not B&N.
I mean, there are Advanced Companions, but those are specific Animal Companions introduced in Howl of the Wild, which level-gates certain companions (like Griffons and Riding Tarantula). So if the intention is for there to be Advanced Robot Companions, there probably should be a note from the Design Team that those are coming in the source book.
I mean, I assumed Battlecry was already Rival Academies but martial.
Even bigger than Rival Academies, given it's a Rulebook and not a Lost Omens title. Might be more equivalent to a martial character's Secrets of Magic.
Excited to see some tasty lore tidbits being revealed!
On another note, when did Thurtson leave Paizo?? I didn't see the usual farewell blog. :(
I think he's now the Associate Publisher or some such thing.
^ This! He's given the reigns over to Jenny for the role of Creative Director of Starfinder, and he's been promoted to Associate Publisher, which oversees all the games Paizo creates.
When can we learn the actual title of the book that these classes are going to be in? Presumably it wasn't in the playtest because of some sort of metanarrative event we haven't broken the seal on, but it's awkward to refer to the book without a title (as in "X is coming out in 2026.")
I'd imagine we'll find out the name of the book at either PaizoCon, or much more likely, at GenCon this year.
There is a reference to Monster Core 2 on Page 71?
Both there in the Instant Spy item description, as well as on Page 98 in the Ambling Surveyor item description. They refer to a Clockwork Spy, who was originally in Bestiary 3!
Luis Loza confirmed in today's Paizo LIVE! that the dragon on the cover is in fact a Cinder Dragon. And as his spoiler for the segment, he's said that we'll get stats for the Cinder Dragon before the end of 2025!
(So, likely, stats for the Cinder Dragon won't be in *this* book, but in a future book to come out in 2025).
Dragon book, maybe?
Maybe a Monster Core 2
Turns out, you are likely correct! There's references to a "Monster Core 2" in Guns & Gears Remastered, referring to a clockwork spy in two different spots in the book. The clockwork spy was previously published in Bestiary 3, so it's definitely a stealth confirmation!
Noticed an error on the Vehicle Mechanic archetype for Guns & Gears Remastered. Their prerequisite still says "Intelligence 14", where for the Remaster it should read as "Intelligence +2".
Red Griffyn has the right of it. But, I will note that the Bullet Dancer dedication grants familiarity with the Bayonet and Reinforced Stock now.
Most firearm users are proficient in martial weapons, so familiarity is a really small change.
But Monks, whom Bullet Dancer is kinda made for, doesn't have martial weapon proficiency. Only simple. So having the weapon familiarity helps a LOT in getting Monks functional with the archetype.
Luis Loza confirmed in today's Paizo LIVE! that the dragon on the cover is in fact a Cinder Dragon. And as his spoiler for the segment, he's said that we'll get stats for the Cinder Dragon before the end of 2025!
(So, likely, stats for the Cinder Dragon won't be in *this* book, but in a future book to come out in 2025).
Hey, there's a classic red-colored dragon on the cover.
The very first post here seays the cover isn't final. Chances are there will be no red dragon on the final version.
That is literally the first post of every single product page thread, whether the art on the book mock-up is on the actual cover or not. If someone recognizes the art featured as being from a previous book, please let me and everyone else know. If the art is, in fact, new, it's more likely to be either the art to be used on the "final cover", or a piece of art to be featured in the book itself.
Hey, there's a classic red-colored dragon on the cover. With a bestiary included in this book, I wonder if this will be the time to re-introduce Remastered versions of the Chromatic/Metallic dragons?
Looking forward to this book coming out! Thanks as always for the amazing material, Paizo.
RUNESMITH HAS A NEW BETTER VERSION OF THE PLAYTEST STEAL SPELL THING THAT MAGUS HAD
I genuinely do not understand what's going on with the iconic Runesmith.
Makes sense, given it's not the actual iconic. This playtest and the last one only had reused art assets in the doc, no Wayne Reynolds sketch or anything depicting the actual iconics.
Hell, we're unlikely to see the final Wayne Reynolds art for the Commander or the Guardian until at least PaizoCon next year. Who knows when we'll manage to see the iconic Necromancer and Runesmith!
I have to second the ask about some of the missing Iconics. Tannin above mentions the gunslinger, magus and inventor classes. However, both the Psychic and Thaumaturge are missing as well. Were these excluded from the PRD intentionally?
Originally, classes made after the Advanced Player's Guide weren't being made into pregens, as there was already 16 classes for people to choose from and they decided (at the time) to stop making them. Then, as of Rage of Elements, they've went back on that decision and started making pregens for the Kineticist, Animist and Exemplar. And of course, as Player Core and Player Core 2 came out, we have gotten Remastered versions of all of the previous pregen Iconics.
As for the plans for the missing 6 classes, I'd imagine once those classes get their own Remastering (like with Guns & Gears Remastered coming out in February), they'll likely be addressed. That's only speculation on my part, but that would make the most sense at this point.
Sad to see Jason Bulmahn not in the credits. I think it means there won't be Razmir's clergy in the book and I really wanted to have a Herald of Razmir statblock ready!
Thankfully, I do spot Michael Sayre's name in the credits, and he is a loyal follower of Razmir the Living God as well. So there's still a chance to be some form of Razmiran worship to be found amongst the dozens of NPCs in this book.
April 2025, so before the Core Book... can we technically say these are the first Starfinder 2e ancestries?
That is my question.
Yeah, they mentioned when this book was announced that Galaxy Guide will come out before the Core book releases for SF2E (Player Core, GM Core, and Alien Core), and this book will technically have the ancestries/archetypes/etc. come out before the full final game is out. But given all of SF2E is 100% compatible with PF2E, that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
If I already have the old version, will I have to purchase the new version to get the updated PDF? I really don’t wan to be charged for this book. I have no intention of paying $70 for minor fixes I can get from Pathbuilder and AoN.
It's been answered a few times, but here's one more for ya': If you already own the pre-Remaster Guns & Gears .PDF, you'll receive the Remastered version of the Guns & Gears .PDF for free. You'll have access to both versions in your account, much like what they did with the Beginner Box.
If you're asking about the physical books, that's not the case. You will not receive another physical book for the Remastered version of Guns & Gears, nor will you get a free .PDF if you only own the physical copy of the pre-Remastered version but not the .PDF.
I really, really like animist's whole deal. Animist, and the covenants that are releasing in Divine Mysteries, have me more excited to play a divine character than I have been in, well ever.
Ooh, I hadn’t heard about covenants yet, what are those?
Covenants were described as a divine grouping brand new in Divine Mysteries. Similar to pantheons, but not necessarily needing a god in the group to be able to grant divine power. An example covenant is the "Breath of the Endless Sky", which draws their divine power from air elementals, jaathoom (air genies), spirits of air, and the Plane of Air itself. All of these beings come together, and by combining their power they're able to grant power much like a god does.
Covenants could also have gods in their groupings too, such as "Good Neighbors" having Cayden Cailean, Erastil, Sarenrae and Torag, but it also includes household spirits.
I don't think us getting errata is impossible tbh considering 2e has been more active with errata than 1e has been overall
Yeah, I agree. This is the first year we're getting the promised errata cycle not tied to print cycles, and the first one brought a lot of love to books that needed it. There's still plenty that could use some more love, though (looking at Secrets of Magic and Book of the Dead), but it's not impossible.
If these Mythic rules are only in an adventure path, then I'd be worrying about them never being addressed. But since these are in a hardcover rulebook, it's not a matter of if, but when. Hopefully not in multiple years, like Secrets of Magic did.
You can take a calling as early as lvl 1 if you are playing with Mythic rules and basically they give an extra Edict and Anathema you have to follow. Then, each one time you do crit succeed at something specifically called out by your Calling, you gain a Mythic Point. Additionally, some of the mythic feats below 12th level have prerequisites that you have a certain Calling.
Most of the callings are pretty self explanatory in what their themes are based on their names. Hunter's Calling, for example, is focused on hunting and tracking. Thief's calling is focused on picking locks & stealing. For a full list of Callings, I listed them all out earlier in this thread.
Thanks. I did see the list. Could you elaborate a bit more on the Bookkeeper and the Sage? I'm quite curious about what separates the two.
Bookkeeper's Calling is focused in on preserving and sharing knowledge from books/scrolls/libraries, and you can roll Earn Income and Recall Knowledge checks using a Lore skill with mythic proficiency. Sage's Calling is more about gaining knowledge in general, and so they have the ability to roll any Recall Knowledge check with mythic proficiency. Both by spending a Mythic Point, of course.
Weirdly enough, Bookkeeper's Calling is the only Mythic Calling that doesn't have a feat with them as a prerequisite. The other 10 Callings have at least one (with Sage having a chain of 2, Mythic Counterspell into Steal Magic). Kinda hope they errata in a Bookkeeper prereq with the Sage's Calling ones.
Pretty sure faultspawn are still called faultspawn.
They are Cambions (new name for Tiefling Nephilim) who are still sometimes called Faultspawn, and they confirmed in their lore section that Asuras are still Fiends who are physical manifestations of divine accidents.
Kjosas are the Nephilim in-setting name equivalent of Empyreans and Cambions (for the previous naming of Aasimars and Tieflings) for Nephilim born related to Valkyries and Einherjar. Mechanically, they're called "Battleblooded" Nephilim.
The mechanical lineage names for Aphorites and Ganzi are "Aeonbound" and "Proteankin", but are still referred to in the setting as Aphorites/Ganzi.
But there may be a divine ranger/divine fighter class archetypes coming the upcoming war of immortals/divine mysteries books so you might have some options that provide a very similar feel.
Warrior of Legend Fighters would be spear/polearm focused, but Vindicator Rangers might be a good fit, given they get to treat the advanced weapon of their deity as a martial weapon for the sake of proficiency. There's also the Battle Harbinger Cleric, who might be a better fit in they still wanted to be more Cleric-ish, but with more martial prowess. That one, however, is coming in Lost Omens: Divine Mysteries in November.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the previous level 26-30 creatures were re-balanced to be level 21-25 but with many new Mythic abilities put onto them. Their increased threat level would still exist, but it'd exist under the framework on the PF2E system instead of what they were in PF1E.
So there's two main parts of the Mythic system: Your Mythic Calling and your Mythic Destiny. Both are on a separate feat track, similar in execution to the Free Archetype variant rule. For levels 1-10, you pursue your Mythic Calling. This is a slightly more generic path, like the "Sage's Calling" or the "Guardian's Calling". Then, once you get to level 11 and onward, you pick your Mythic Calling. This is a much more specific fantasy of your ascension to a higher state of existence. We know of ones like the "Apocalypse Rider" "Archfiend", "Ascended Celestial", "Eternal Legend", "Mortal Herald" and the "Prophesied Monarch".
For Mythic Callings and Destinies, you become much harder to kill. Instead of dying at Dying 3 (or 4 with Diehard), you get back up and become Doomed instead. You'll only die fully once you're full up on Doomed and die afterwards. You also get access to Mythic Points, which you can use to access a Mythic Proficiency. This proficiency seems to be a proficiency of level + 10, which would allow you to do better than even the most Legendary of creatures.
In return, you'll possibly face off against Mythic creatures! These creatures, like how it works with players, are not built for beyond the intended levels. Instead, there are several templates you can apply to any creature to make them much more difficult to take down. Like the Trickster featured in one stream. Just when you think you've killed the Trickster, they'll have switched themselves with any raven, fox or coyote within a 100 mile radius of them! So you'll need the Mythic Calling/Destiny's various high-fantasy feats and abilities to best take these Mythic creatures down.
Do we have confirmation that none of the creatures will break the level cap of 25?
We've had confirmation since the announcement of WoI from Jason Bulmahn that PF2E's Mythic rules are not an extension of the game past 20th level.
There was also this exchange from the Discord spoilers this year at PaizoCon Online 2024:
Discord User wrote:
“very hyped since it'll be interesting to see if its return of 26-30 levels and if it isn't then how mythic creatures are different from 1e mythics (and if we get more 1e mythics like devastator back) and how the mythic abilities feel and aaa x'D”
James Jacobs wrote:
It's not a return to 26–30 level play. Mythic creatures versus non-mythic creatures (or versus non-mythic parties) will still win, but yeah, the way we, for example, would stat up Treerazer as a non-mythic level 25 threat versus, say, Cyth-V'sug as a level 25 mythic threat is something that's very different than the way it worked in 1st edition. it's a lot more elegant and interesting, and I actually think it'll make it a lot less tricky to get those powerful stat blocks out there for folks to play with over time.
Finally... Michael Sayre, during the Keynote at PaizoCon 2024, stated that, in terms of the Mythic creatures in WoI, they did not change the level scaling of the game for them. Instead, these Mythic threats possess abilities and the options they have go outside of the usual math framework of the game. His cited example is the Immortal Trickster's ability to switch with any raven/fox/coyote within 100 mile radius of him instead of dying.
I'm sure this was likely answered before, but I find really weird that we are going to get a class named "guardian" and a mythic path named "guardian". That feels really weird because I don't recall a single instance of Paizo giving the same name to two things, specially with classes.
Michael Sayre made a passing comment about that situation HERE.
Is this book supposed to be a replacement for Gods & Magic?
The description of this product, as well as the comment directly above yours, suggests this book is not only a replacement for Gods & Magic, but also an expansion upon it.
So there's two main parts of the Mythic system: Your Mythic Calling and your Mythic Destiny. Both are on a separate feat track, similar in execution to the Free Archetype variant rule. For levels 1-10, you pursue your Mythic Calling. This is a slightly more generic path, like the "Sage's Calling" or the "Guardian's Calling". Then, once you get to level 11 and onward, you pick your Mythic Calling. This is a much more specific fantasy of your ascension to a higher state of existence. We know of ones like the "Apocalypse Rider" "Archfiend", "Ascended Celestial", "Eternal Legend", "Mortal Herald" and the "Prophesied Monarch".
For Mythic Callings and Destinies, you become much harder to kill. Instead of dying at Dying 3 (or 4 with Diehard), you get back up and become Doomed instead. You'll only die fully once you're full up on Doomed and die afterwards. You also get access to Mythic Points, which you can use to access a Mythic Proficiency. This proficiency seems to be a proficiency of level + 10, which would allow you to do better than even the most Legendary of creatures.
In return, you'll possibly face off against Mythic creatures! These creatures, like how it works with players, are not built for beyond the intended levels. Instead, there are several templates you can apply to any creature to make them much more difficult to take down. Like the Trickster featured in one stream. Just when you think you've killed the Trickster, they'll have switched themselves with any raven, fox or coyote within a 100 mile radius of them! So you'll need the Mythic Calling/Destiny's various high-fantasy feats and abilities to best take these Mythic creatures down.
Wonder if they will bring over Beastbrood, Faultspawn, Riftmarked, Shackleborn, Emberkin, Idyllkin and Plumekith. Basically all of the lineages from the Ancestry Guide. While Battle-blooded is new as a lineage, it kinda already existed under Ganzi in the form of two ancestry feats, one for einherji descended ("Glory and Valor!") and one for Valkyrie descended ("Arise, Ye Worthy!"), both also from ancestry guide. I wonder how much of the nephilim feats will just be bringing all that to the remaster. While not exactly new, it would be very good to have those lineages and feats officially brought to the remaster. If we include all those tiefling and aasimar lineages from the ancestry guide, ganzi divided into two lineages (The protean descended and de valkyrie/einherji descended) and aphorites we are already talking about 10 new lineages.
The only one amongst those I'd be worried about not coming back in the same way is the Beastbrood, since Rakshasa are now Spirits instead of Fiends. I'd expect them to more like be Remastered into their own Versatile Heritage, much like what has happened with the Hungerseed. The other assortment of lineages, I'm more comfortable expecting some to come back.
If I buy the Pre-Master version of the Guns & Gears, then when the Remaster comes out in January, it will automatically update to the Remastered version?
If you get the .PDF, you'll get the Remastered .PDF as well. They've done the same with the Beginner Box.
The one thing I would love to get for the Wizard is the ability to pick a 2nd Wizard school. That would allow the Wizard to expand their 4th slot's access to more spells, and would theoretically allow the Wizard to pick up a feat to snag a 3rd Focus Spell (and thus, a 3rd Focus Point) within the class itself instead of needing to pick up an archetype or multiclass.
It would also make sense within the class' fantasy, too. There's plenty of people who go back to college and pick a new major, and that major can be wildly different from the first one. Why can't the Wizard learn from one Wizard school, then later in their career, go back to a different school and expand their knowledge base? Seems like a no-brainer to me.
Yeah, I've been wanting to do write-ups of the new info dropped for both Pathfinder 2E and Starfinder 2E at GenCon, and now it's been a month and a half since the con has happened. Like what Andrew said, it'd be nice if we can be told wherever or not those panels are still happening.
I'll drop off this little spoiler Michael Sayre shared a couple days ago on the r/pathfinder2e Discord server. In response to this user's comment:
Cool Discord User wrote:
when all the coolest guns for bullet dancer are martial 😭 I want to double barrel flurry man
...
Double barrel flurry even introduces needing to upkeep two loaded barrels but the idea of mixing shots and stock butts and reload actions is so cool, I'll probably ask the player in my group who GMs if I can play that in our next one shot despite BD limiting to simple
He said this:
Michael Sayre wrote:
Michael Sayre — 09/11/2024 5:18 PM
Remember how we've been doing a lot of replacing bespoke proficiencies with familiarity and then making more stuff reference familiarity?
I think people will be generally pleased with bullet dancer's remaster.
There's a confirmed new orc deity, so bloodrager (which has an orc iconic) makes sense in this book.
Honestly, seems like we're getting several new orc deities, if the fabled "orc challenges orc god to take their seat" is gonna be showcased for War of Immortals/Divine Mysteries. Mike Sayre had this fun little tease he gave on Discord about the very same thing:
Michael Sayre wrote:
Michael Sayre — 09/06/2024 12:54 PM
These are excerpts from one of my favorite pieces of lore in War of Immortals. They are not the whole piece of fiction and I have removed the most spoiler-ific spoilers but there's probably some stuff in there a few people on this server will squee about.
War of Immortals Spoiler from Mike Sayre:
Long did the old gods sit upon their thrones of bone and blood. Verex the Despoiler. Zagresh the Destroyer. Lanishra. Sezelrian. Their cruelty and power spoke to our strengths and our failings. They marked what we had been and sought to claim what we could be. But we are orcs. We bow only on broken knees. When battle claims us and our lungs fill with blood, we warn the gods of our coming.
Verex was weak. The Despoiler became the despoiled, taken by Rovagug’s power. No one seeks the unworthy’s empty throne and no death rite shall free him from his torment, only a true and final death.
Zagresh fell to XX’s blade, and then XX planted that blade between Torag’s ribs to show the dwarves our wrath. Let Torag take the lesson learned as penance for pushing his children to harm our own, penance made full in his duty as YY’s second.
The old ways crumble beneath us. Dromaars play a song of new beginnings on drums that echo across Belkzen, our trial and our home. The weak gods fall. The strong rise. A new era for orcs begins. Let tyrants who whisper in crumbling towers tremble. We have not fallen and we have not forgotten. This age is ours.
Reading these comments and others out there over the years, it really does feel like "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't" when you are a creator. The past week I've seen people say, "Paizo needs to stop making classes and focusing on what they already have," but also see "these class archetypes should have been full on classes." I think sticking to what feels right and what inspires the creators and supplementing that with data and feedback from structured things like polls is the only way to really go about things without getting overwhelmed.
Now don't get me wrong sharing opinions or thoughts is fine, especially when done respectfully. I know we certainly have in the past about wanting Bloodrager as a class, but we are excited to see what the creatives do with this class archetype version. It does feel inspired and just enough like the based barbarian to be a part of it while being it's own thing. Never gonna appease everyone, so you have to be proud on your work on your own and ask, "did I feel good doing this."
I certainly agree with that. One week we have had posts and threads asking why there are only 5 class archetypes in the entire game after 5 years of active development, and another (read: this) week we have people wanting these new class archetypes as full classes instead. There's simply no pleasing everyone.
And that makes sense, given the group of people talking during Week B are likely not the same people who were talking in Week A. After all, people are typically more likely to write up a complaint or negative feedback than they are to simply leave a compliment or positive feedback. There's a reason Paizo keeps asking people to leave positive reviews. They simply aren't many being written most of the time.
Paizo basing their developmental decisions on the data they have at their disposal to attract and satisfy the widest range of players and GMs possible is a fine metric to measure their success. There will always be detractors, and each detractor will probably have their own problems and solutions of the system in their minds. Better to make a good game for many people than to strive for an impossible "perfect" game for some.
Cool mechanics. Guess I have to stop referring to e.g. Alchemist, Rogue, Sorcerer etc. archetypes as 'class archetypes,' otherwise this is going to get confusing.
Those archetypes have always been referred to as "multiclass archetypes" since the game came out. So that lexicon is right there for you to use.
Doesn't the current playtest end in December 31? We know mechanic and technomancer are going to be playtestede in early next year, so I think its easy to assume that once this playtest ends we will get that one next. If that means we will get the playtest for starships in that same batch or if we aren't going to get a playtest at all I don't know, but I would find really weird if we had to wait a full year to have something so basic like starships in the system.
Unless, space combat won't be part of the Starfinder 2E core rules.
Or they will be in the SF2E equivalent to Player Core 2, and contain the starship rules in there.
