Alurad Sorizan

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 8,199 posts (8,201 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 alias.


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Gorbacz wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Hm, shouldn't by that logic this be the entry product for Golarion in 2E and they should sell it at a loss (like their $10.00 PDF's for hardcovers?). This should be the book which hooks new players to use Golarion as their main campaign setting, after all.

You can't say that without knowing what's the sales of CRB compared to the setting book. And I can hazard a guess that CRB is multiple times a bigger seller, because everybody wants one, while the setting book is really of interest only for GMs (a subset of the market) who want to run Golarion (a subset of a subset).

The number of reviews of ISWG (34) compared to the number of reviews of CRB (130) is likely a good indication of how one compares to the other in terms of number sold.

Sure, that makes some sense. I'd say that probably quite a few players would like to have the setting book as well, but overall you're right.


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Hm, shouldn't by that logic this be the entry product for Golarion in 2E and they should sell it at a loss (like their $10.00 PDF's for hardcovers?). This should be the book which hooks new players to use Golarion as their main campaign setting, after all.


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As am I.


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Same thing happened in Wrath of the Righteous, only there you had the added mythic tiers to that as well. ^^


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Yeah, there are some schools which are just more easily countered than others, Illusion and Enchantment foremost between them.


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Sure, but I wasn't talking about those other spells or other means of finding the guy, I was talking specifically about See Invisibility and True Seeing. Of course parties have many resources to circumvent Mind Blank, but a lot of players will go the lazy approach and just run around with See Invisibility and/or True Seeing. Of course if you got the paranoid type who runs around with Echolocation on all the time or something like a Dragon Disciple in the group, who has Blindsense, then bad luck for Xanderghul.

There's a reason why I've invested maximum ranks into Stealth for my Sorcerer (Sage bloodline, so I got the spare skill points). ^^


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Erm, Xanderghul has Mind Blank memorized. See Invisibility and True Seeing simply don't work.

From the Mind Blank description:

"The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible)."

and

"Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to gain information about the target. "

I'm sure someone will try to argue that True Seeing surely will work, since it is not mentioned explicitly. However, True Seeing is a level six spell vs. a level eight spell, where both spell descriptions contradict each other (i.e. "see all things as they actually are" vs what I quoted above). Normally the higher level spell takes precedence in those cases.

I quoted the second part of Mind Blank specifically to indicate that actually even a level nine spell like Wish or Miracle is foiled by Mind Blank, hence it logically would foil a level six divination like True Seeing as well.

There's a reason why I took this as my first spell for my Sorcerer when we reached level 16 in the Way of the Wicked campaign one week ago. :p It makes Mirror Image and Invisibility once again truly useful.


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Well, that probably *would* be the side-effect on low-wisdom arcane caster nerds. :p


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Jason Keeley wrote:

Hey folks,

Just want to hop on here to reiterate that the Starfinder team does pay attention to these forum posts and we are hearing you! As has been stated previously, our data suggests that higher-level content doesn't sell as well as lower-level adventures, but that doesn't mean we haven't completely dismissed the idea. Of course, I can't announce anything at this time (as there is nothing to announce).

Alright, then please enter another data point into your survey data: I won't be buying any Starfinder material unless there are high-level AP's to play with. I was pretty damn keen on buying the adventures and sourcebooks after the CRB release, but after learning about the level cap of level 13 in your AP's, I've abandoned the idea completely.

My group and myself simply are not interested in only playing to mid-levels and since I am pretty well occupied with my full-time job, I don't have the time nor energy to write my own stuff.


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Yeah, I'm good. I'm pretty much plastered after coming from work and doing these long debates after getting out of bed ain't working out too well, either. Let's call it a draw.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
No they aren't. Per the Adventurer's Guide, they aren't a part of the state at all. The Lord-Mayor incarnates the state in Kintargo, and is apparently acclaimed by the people then ratified (or not) by the Board of Governors. At best the SRs are a political party to which the Lord-Mayor might owe some allegiance.

Yet they still wield significant political influence, given that a Silver Raven (Jilia Bainilus) is Lord-Mayor.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
They also aren't completely depopulated by abortive counter-revolutionary reprisals, nor have they suffered any major political shakeup. The capital might be in Kintargo; power is not.

Quite honestly, I was more than a bit surprised to see that Vyre has more populace than Kintargo. How do they feed all those people, given that they are on an island where everything surrounding the city wants to kill and/or eat the populace? And if power is in Kintargo or Vyre is, once again, your tea leaves reading. Already didn't work out on slavery.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
So? Again, while the Eagle Knights are the arm of a state, the SRs are not.

You've already been proven wrong by James.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
No it wasn't. The entire point was separatism for its own sake while maintaining as much of the status quo ante as possible.

That's your interpretation, not shared by many others here.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
And if the BoG doesn't ratify a Lord-Mayor, Thrune can act against Ravounel with impunity. That is what gives the BoG its power. If they fail to ratify a Lord-Mayor, Thrune can do as it likes and probably reward its supporters handsomely.

Yet Thrune still has a huge stake in preserving the compact. It's a stalemate, hence why there is no leverage which wouldn't carry huge reprisals against the potential blackmailer.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Secret's out, it can't be kept.

That's, again, your interpretation, not a fact.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Oh, that's not true. Thrune had supporters throughout the Civil War and still does.

Yes, I imagine LE opportunistic noble houses wouldn't jump at a chance for political advancement. That's be reaaaally uncharacteristic for LE noble houses.

Grantedly, though, that works in both directions.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
It's been 70+ years since 4640. The nobility isn't going to just regenerate itself automatically after that long a consistent set of attacks by the central, absolutist regime. And that regime will have gained at least some mortal support over the generations.

Sure, and a significant part of the populace still worships other non-evil deities, the state has enemies or potential enemies all around them and the only thing propping them up all this time is that they can call on the support of actual Hell. If you think that the Thrunes just shrug at losing their most important military support, that sounds like a really bad strategic reading of the situation. I mean, the entire point why they let Ravounel go was that they felt there was no option but to do so.


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BTW, not sure what happened at the end of my last post, sorry.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Because of the CG government. Because nothing says "CG" like slavery, right?

Ravounel doesn't have a nation write-up, so this "CG" business is pure speculation on your part. The country's most populous city is in fact CN, and permits slavery on laissez-faire/consent-as-panacea grounds.

Kintargo is CG, the Silver Ravens are CG. They are the governing body of Ravounel, so far Vyre is more along for the ride. The Adventurer's Guide makes it clear that the Silver Ravens have slavers as their explicit enemies and are making common cause with the Eagle Knights.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Sure, it's a prediction. It is also the most reasonable one, because it doesn't posit a radical change in social policy.

Which was the entire point of Hell's Rebels. Don't hold your breath in finding a slavery paradise.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
How so? Picture the situation. You're an aristocrat who is trying to cling to your inherited power in a situation where popular acclaim seems to be a viable path to power. Holding the threat of foreign intervention over the people is a means to maintaining your power in the form of a veto over the popular acclaim. It's not like calling in foreign interventions is unprecedented, either in real history of in Golarion's.

The problem there being that House Thrune doesn't want the Kintargo Contract to end, so who are you exactly blackmailing? And this, again, presumes that anyone was stupid enough to tell the five families about their role in the whole thing.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The nobles who wanted Thrune off its throne were presumably purged in the counter-revolution of 4717-18, either because they threw in their lot with their best chance in decades, or because the regime took the opportunity to do away with wavering elements. In any event, the Chelaxian nobility is consistently portrayed as decadent, hollowed-out, and powerless in the face of the absolutist regime, which is true enough to life to be believable.

That would "all the other noble houses in Cheliax", so quite a purge. And that depiction of the Chelaxian nobility depends on the overwhelming power of Hell. If Hell's support would suddenly be withdrawn, at the very least House Thrune would have to make huge concessions, more likely they'd get murdered very quickly.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Cheliax's neighbors likewise were not strong enough to take advantage of the regime's internal troubles when it was having internal troubles. They're supposed to be better placed against a regime that has quashed its internal troubles and consolidated itself? This is a fantasy.

The other neighbours stood back to see how the situation developed. With House Thrune deeply weakened by the Glorious Reclamation and the complete withdrawal of Hell's support, the opportunity to take out the diabolists would be better than at any other point in Cheliax history. And if you think that some of Cheliax vassal states wouldn't want to take the opportunity to free themselves when such an opportunity pops up, I don't know what to say.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
You seem to have conflated the republican form of government broadly conceived with the liberal republic in specific. Oligarchies are republican, as are military dictatorships, as are communist states. But whether you approve of particular republics is hardly the point. The point is that republicanism is not inconceivable in setting, quite the opposite.

That is a very broad definition of "Republic", sounding about as realistic as communist countries calling themselves "democratic". But you do you, boo.

Quote:
Absalom gets ruled by an
...


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Name: Flavian Ejiadiel
Race: Aasimar
Classes/Levels: Fighter 6 / Heritor Knight 6
Adventure: Beyond the Doomsday Door
Location: E7. Lights of the Dead
Catalyst: Zapped to near death by Will o'Wisps, then life sucked out by an Animate Dream.
The Gory Details: The party had been progressing well in the dungeons under Windsong Abbey, but after resting one too many times, they ran into an ambush which combined about six encounters (Sinspawn rangers, Zolerim, Baraghera, Animate Dreams, Ricle Peaks and the Will o'Wisps) into one.

The fight was progressing okay for the party, since the Sorshen-clone Wizard managed to Dismiss the Baraghera right at the beginning of the fight. However, Flavian had advanced too far ahead and got mobbed by four of the Will o'Wisps, which burned down his HP over two rounds (he actually had the advantage of absorbing five damage from each attack, but still down the HP went.) Since all the healers were too far away, he finally was at deaths door and the Animate Dream didn't let that opportunity pass.

He got ressurected from the scroll found further back in the dungeon the same evening and will continue on the next day toward Ardathanatus.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
I'll presume that the slavers are not openly plying their trade but are rather a criminal organization.
Why would you presume that? Nothing in the HR AP actually states that slavery is abolished in the country.

Because of the CG government. Because nothing says "CG" like slavery, right?

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
There's "not being perfect" and then there's "having to rely on a posse of 7th-level foreigners who teleport into your country to solve your endemic problems." Assuming they even are problems - the Bellflowers and the Age of Ashes party might be acting against government policy in fighting a slaver cult.

Not likely. And calling it an "endemic problem" is tea leaves reading of the situation.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
I am not ignoring it, in fact I am centering it. It is the most important thing. It is what gives the Board of Governors its veto power over who becomes Lord-Mayor. Put another way, the Board of Governors gets its power from terror - holding the threat of foreign invasion over everyone's heads.

In your fantasy how things are going, maybe. I think the reality will be quite different.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
I highly doubt it. They just managed to put down an insurrection with fire and blood, after all. Who has the power to try again, even absent Hell's support?

Maybe all the nobles who want the Thrune's off the throne? Or maybe Cheliax neighbours, some of which probably want to throw of their yoke. The candidate list is pretty long.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
Golarion is hardly medieval, it is consistently portrayed as early-modern, with Age of Exploration-style mercantilist colonies, a developing factory system of production, and a well-girded system of world trade. Feudalism is consistently portrayed as an empty shell in the countries where it exists - and Taldor isn't one of them. In any event, the republic is not a pie-in-the-sky project, but an accomplished fact in numerous countries: not just Galt and Andoran, but also Absalom, Bachuan, Goka, Magnimar, Molthune, Nirmathas, Rahadoum, and probably others I'm forgetting.

Absalom gets ruled by an oligarchic council, so does Magnimar. Bachuan is a communist nightmare, the USSR on steroids. Molthune gets ruled by powerful noble houses, it's basically the Holy Roman Empire. Nirmathas is a bunch of Robin Hood's doing their own thing. I don't know enough about Goka and Rahadoum to make an informed statement.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
I don't know, Hell's Rebels leaves it pretty open who holds the levers of power on the end. There are some players who appear to be set in canon (which is what will happen in a few months with the Lost Omens guide, anyway, for all AP's), but it could well be PC's who end up ruling Ravounel.

Who formally rules Ravounel is immaterial. Ravounel's constitution depends on the Cheliax Covenant, which enshrines five families as the permanent power brokers in the country.

Hell's Rebels' limited impact is made even more clear by the Age of Ashes campaign, which features slavers operating in Ravounel. Which means either the institution has not been abolished, or the government hasn't the power to enforce abolition.

I'll presume that the slavers are not openly plying their trade but are rather a criminal organization. That means that the Silver Ravens and their allies are not perfect in maintaining a crime-free realm (then again, that goes for any real nation on Earth as well), but not that the freedom on Ravounel had a "limited impact", IMO.

And you are ignoring that breaking the Cheliax Covenant would also mean that the government of Cheliax would be stripped of the support of hell. Hence, the five families hold not that much power in Ravounel, but rather in Cheliax. And that's only if the players are stupid enough to make them aware of their importance to that magical construct.

Sure, Ravounel would probably be re-integrated if the Cheliax Covenant were to be broken, but shortly thereafter the Thrune government would probably go down as well.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:


Quote:
As for War for the Crown, while the AP assumes a fixed goal, the PC's play a significant role in shaping how that will play out. There's leeway for another person to sit on the throne, however abolishing the entire system is clearly not in play and would be very difficult against the ingrained power structure, anyway. The proactive part is in modernizing Taldor for a new age.
Aye, there's the rub.

Eh, if you think that abolishing monarchy and feudalism in a medieval fantasy setting is a realistic goal, be my guest. I think Galt stands as enough of a bad example for most nations on Golarion (and Andoran as the good example, of course) that even most normal citizens would be leery of that prospect, doubly so for Taldans, given their proximity to Galt.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
It's that you are not ushering in a glorious communist revolution, is my guess. ^^
Well, that would always be nice, but more specifically, both APs have you surrendering your project, whatever it is, to dead-hand control, and force you not to let it play out to the end.

I don't know, Hell's Rebels leaves it pretty open who holds the levers of power on the end. There are some players who appear to be set in canon (which is what will happen in a few months with the Lost Omens guide, anyway, for all AP's), but it could well be PC's who end up ruling Ravounel.

As for War for the Crown, while the AP assumes a fixed goal, the PC's play a significant role in shaping how that will play out. There's leeway for another person to sit on the throne, however abolishing the entire system is clearly not in play and would be very difficult against the ingrained power structure, anyway. The proactive part is in modernizing Taldor for a new age.


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Yeah, you're probably right about that.


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I'll be honest, what I've read so far about this AP reads a bit like "Golarion: World Tour", where the point of the AP is to show as many locations as possible. Not that I don't appreciate a return to Ravounel, though I'd have rather seen what's going on with Ameiko. :p


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It's that you are not ushering in a glorious communist revolution, is my guess. ^^


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Yeah, I was already buying this, now I'm stoked to. Since I'm not switching to PF2E, having a solid basis from where to either write my own stuff or retroengineer new PF2E AP's is excellent.


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Ah, two of the best AP's ever produced by Paizo.


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Here, here. Well said.


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As long as the NPC's have it, I'm fine. ^^


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You are trying waaaay to hard here, Zimmy. Blast some Linkin Park to take off the edge or something.


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Maybe because he worked with the system for a decade and wants to help out fans who still love the first edition?


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The next module probably will have more about that.


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Well, still crossing my fingers, then.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Also: when I GM Return, I will include a bit where Sorshen makes public apologies (probably abstaining from using a Magic Mouth or Mage's Decree for them) for all the evil stuff she did, and will sentence herself to ten thousand years' of solitary confinement, followed by community service.
So, basically she can then immediately say "Already did the solitary confinement the last 10k years and providing a realm for exiles and outcasts is "community service" if you look at the term from the right angle". ^^
Yes, that's the joke.

It was a bit obtuse so I thought it could need some clearing up.

zimmerwald1915 wrote:
And now for something completely different: how does New Eurythnia sustain itself? Artists make art, of course, but you can't eat art (well, I guess you could, but it wouldn't keep you alive). The boheme is characteristically unproductive, and putting them to work on farms or in workshops is hardly libertine. Is Sorshen planning on making a Tippy-realm, where food production is handled by create food traps?

Presumably she'll take care of the amenities of life the same way she does take care of unclimbable mountain ranges: With magic.


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The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
Also: when I GM Return, I will include a bit where Sorshen makes public apologies (probably abstaining from using a Magic Mouth or Mage's Decree for them) for all the evil stuff she did, and will sentence herself to ten thousand years' of solitary confinement, followed by community service.

So, basically she can then immediately say "Already did the solitary confinement the last 10k years and providing a realm for exiles and outcasts is "community service" if you look at the term from the right angle". ^^


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Marco Massoudi wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Just saying, but looking at Arazni's statblock, Tar-Baphons actual physical form would be toast (literally) in one round, if she'd actually use her feats and metamagic feats correctly and memorize one Quickened Fireball. Not really credible that they'd battle for several minutes, if she literally can toast him in one round twice for 20d10 + 20d5, no resistances, no immunities.

Ah, I just saw that her plan was to make him use a certain thing on her, so now it makes more sense.

20d10 is 110 damage average.

20d5 does not exist in Pathfinder.
You probably mean 50% more damage (empowered), which would be 30d10 and average at 165 damage. ;-)

But doesn´t she want to be killed by the radiant fire?
CR wise she isn´t far below TB if i remember "Mythic Realms" correctly.

Yes, you correctly surmised the entire intent of my post. ;)


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Just saying, but looking at Arazni's statblock, Tar-Baphons actual physical form would be toast (literally) in one round, if she'd actually use her feats and metamagic feats correctly and memorize one Quickened Fireball. Not really credible that they'd battle for several minutes, if she literally can toast him in one round twice for 20d10 + 20d5, no resistances, no immunities.

Ah, I just saw that her plan was to make him use a certain thing on her, so now it makes more sense.


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James Jacobs wrote:

I don't count those potential characters at all because I've never run or played Wrath of the Righteous and thus those characters don't exist in my headcanon. And since they're player characters, they CAN NOT exist in the actual world canon. Their existence is of course implied because the events of all Adventure Paths are assumed to have taken place, but we don't get to make the decisions about player characters—the only ones that matter in the end are the ones at your table who survived their adventures.

Sorshen is more powerful than the Whispering Tyrant though, that's for sure.

That all gets my thumbs up in all regards. I made clear to my players that their WotR characters would not be running around on Golarion but rather be drawn to other planes, because they kind of present the Superman problem ("Well, if the world is about to end, why don't characters X,Y and Z come in to save the day? They easily could!").

And since Sorshen and Nocticula together with Ameiko, Shalelu and Arueshalae are my favorite female characters in Pathfinder, I thoroughly approve of them kicking ass. :p


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Well, I don't own that book. At CR 26 he's almost there with Sorshen.


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Phillip Gastone wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Man, Sorshen chose about the worst real estate, unless almost all the inhabitants are people who enjoy climbing. A lot.
Unless she was hoping to establish a nation where persecuted artists and exiles and those marginalized by society could go to find safety from those who are after them, in which case she chose about the best real estate.
Come to my new city! First 100,000 get free Slippers of Spider climbing!

She better take a lot of apprentices, that's (at least) 300.000 man-hours of crafting, probably rather 500.000. ^^


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James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:

Good point. Still, I hope she added "bring climbing kits!" to the news item she spread around to get the attention of all those artists and outcasts. ^^

As potentially the most powerful living wizard on the planet, I'm sure she's got resources to help prospective exiles flocking to her nation out.

Well, unless you count a mythic character from WotR who is a Wizard/Sorcerer/Arcanist, who presumably took the archmage mythic path. :p But since that is unspecified due to you guys not knowing party compositions of everybody who played WotR to the end, she probably is the most powerful arcane caster on Golarion. Although we still have to see the Whispering Tyrant's stat block. :)

That's still a lot of Disintegrates and Stone Shapes to cast, to get a decent road up to Xin-Shalast. ;)


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CorvusMask wrote:

Plus all city states had sent expeditions to Xin-Shalast to try to loot it/claim it for themselves, so they are probably bit annoyed that additional party appeared out of nowhere to win that race for them :D

Even if all outcasts want to move to New Thassilon, just accepting outcasts and exiles in general is also gonna add some Ire. So I'm kinda interested in knowing whether Sorshen's mythical charisma is good enough that she is well liked even though she has bad reputation.(both from the past and present)

If we go by stats alone, she's equally as charismatic as Nocticula was as a demon lord.

CorvusMask wrote:

But yeah, I still gotta say that I guess I could see LN party to be like "Nah, you need to pay for your crimes that happened thousands of years ago!" and I wouldn't think they are exactly wrong for it since if that happened in real life(genocidal dictators appearing out of nowhere in future) people would want to punish them, but this is fantasy and Sorshen is bit too powerful to be punished. Not just because of "who could take take her on?" factor, but also because she has lot of ancient knowledge that would be useful in modern day, so from pragmatic sense lot of folks would want to benefit from that.

I do however find it questionable if people who redeemed that old lich named Alderpash want to really hard to punish Sorshen :P

Yeah, good point. I really do wonder if the mythic heroes of WotR will have a canon part in second edition Golarion. Because let's keep it real, they could probably each individually just establish themselves as overlords of any nation they like. Well, minus New Thassilon. :p

James Jacobs wrote:
Unless she was hoping to establish a nation where persecuted artists and exiles and those marginalized by society could go to find safety from those who are after them, in which case she chose about the best real estate.

Good point. Still, I hope she added "bring climbing kits!" to the news item she spread around to get the attention of all those artists and outcasts. ^^


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Man, Sorshen chose about the worst real estate, unless almost all the inhabitants are people who enjoy climbing. A lot.


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Let's not underestimate the amount of plot shielding characters in adventure paths get. I imagine that for every successful adventurer, there are at least a 100 who never make it past level five, be it from death of early retirement.


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TheGreatWot wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
And now she used that choice to help save Varisia and try to be a better person. I don't know how many times you need to save an entire country to redeem yourself. I think "once" is a big enough number, though.

My response was purely to that one claim of adventurers' killings being as heinous than Sorshen's.

I'm not debating that first part of your response. She did help to save Varisia. Becoming a better person is less obvious, but I'm willing to accept that too if only due to her alignment change. All of that doesn't mean she can't be punished. David Berkowitz became a born-again Christian in prison. He was punished first, then was "redeemed". He's still serving six consecutive life sentences. It's clearly more subjective than I first saw it as, but one can argue for both sides. Maybe it's fine to let her free... or maybe, as the book hints, she could backslide to evil due to her guisarme's influence. I don't see punishing her as an evil act, just a lawful one.

Okay, let's talk about the practicalities here, then. Who exactly is going to go "punish" her? There is no central authority in Varisia, it's all city states with some moderate influence on their surrounding area. So there's not even an argument of "She's taken our land!", since nobody has claimed the area she is establishing New Thassilon in (I assume she will be integrating the nomads of the Nolands into her realm). No neighboring state is going to care or have the moral or legal authority to interfere in Varisia. About nobody else on Golarion cares.

I can imagine some group of Hellknights getting a burr up their butts about it, but good luck with that quest. So, basically we'd need a bunch of super-lawful level 20 adventurers caring enough to go and do the deed, at which point they'd discover how outclassed they are even at that level by a mythic tier ten character. Although Sorshen has been built in a way where she isn't even using some of the most powerful stuff available. If she had mythic Fireball with Empower Spell and Maximise Spell, adventurers would just go "poof" as soon as they'd try to apprehend her.

Honestly, I find it much more likely that people would go after Belimarius, who still is openly evil and also does not even have a mythic tier to her name. But somehow she doesn't get multiple threads with people complaining about her status quo after Return of the Runelords.


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And now she used that choice to help save Varisia and try to be a better person. I don't know how many times you need to save an entire country to redeem yourself. I think "once" is a big enough number, though.


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Actually, I was conflating a conversation in a thread from four months ago with a thread in this subforum from three months ago. Man, time passes rapidly. Sorry for the testyness.

Link to the conversation in the AP product thread.

Here's a link to the other thread in this sub-forum.


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We actually had this exact same thread a short time ago. I pointed out in it already that Paizo has given plenty of non "hot female" characters the chance at redemption in their AP's. Of course the people who were pushing this false point didn't accept that fact, but what can you do?


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How edgy.


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I think the main issue is of you believe in the idea of redemption or not. I do. Sorshen helps prevent the end of Varisia (at least) and then actually tries to better herself. That's enough for me.


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Sorshen is fine. If you want NPC's to do your job for you, watch a TV series.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also thanks for that info! I'll have to take a deeper look at the AP in the next weeks, when I get time to read a bit into the story.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thanks, that sounds good. I'll pitch this AP to my players, to see if they are interested in it after we're done with Shattered Star, Hell's Rebels and Return of the Runelords.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That is not necessarily a reason to say it isn't suited to evil characters. Evil fighting evil for selfish purposes isn't unheard of. The question is rather if the AP assumes that the PC's do things for altruistic reasons (which would make it strongly non-evil suited) or if they can be in for themselves (a good enough reason could be vengeance against whomever the big bad is or mere survival of whatever their condition is).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A point which the player's guide does not address at all is player character alignment. So, my question is "is this AP well suited for evil characters?" I mostly GM non-evil parties, but it seems that among my players a good number of them would love to play an AP where they can play evil characters. Since I don't own Hell's Vengeance, this seems to be an AP inherently well suited for allowing evil characters. Am I right in this assumption?

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