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Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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CynDuck wrote:
Gaulin wrote:
Just checked out the picture, yeah that could be our remaining 4 ancestries, but also could be some Beastkin for the insectoid/badger. Pretty likely we're getting merfolk and locathah though. Gonna be a great book
All six members of the crew besides Baranthet are supposed to be the six new ancestries, so those two wouldn't just be beastkin.

Yeah, the crewmates minus Baranthet are all meant for the new ancestries introduced by the book, and I highly doubt they'd add extra people inside that were unrelated. If the image is legit I'm fairly confident those are our 6 ancestries. Now if the bug person is indeed a Klinkoi, then that means that the badger one is the new one, as I believe it was confirmed one of the ancestries is brand new. Locathah being introduced here would actually pair well with Tian Xia, as they're the ancestry who lives in Xidao, and they've confirmed the remaining three Tian Xia ancestries are brand new, meaning Locathat couldn't fit in that book.

I remember it being said they used this book to expand on what they could get away with in ancestry design, and I'm curious now which of these characters it most relates to. Obviously Centaur and Minotaur are large, and Merfolk are aquatic (no idea how walking will work), but I'm wondering what the deal is with the remaining ones. Really excited for Merfolk though, I'm so curious as to their mechanics and lore.


BookBird wrote:
I remember it being said they used this book to expand on what they could get away with in ancestry design, and I'm curious now which of these characters it most relates to. Obviously Centaur and Minotaur are large, and Merfolk are aquatic (no idea how walking will work), but I'm wondering what the deal is with the remaining ones. Really excited for Merfolk though, I'm so curious as to their mechanics and lore.

Centaur is not only Large, but particularly rideable. Like, my understanding is that there are going to be feats that are specifically designed to make the "players riding on other players" thing a viable option.

For the badger... a dig speed, possibly?


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The bug ancestry could have something with more than two arms. That being said, just because they're messing around with the limits of ancestry design doesn't mean they'll do that for all of these.


Sanityfaerie wrote:

Centaur is not only Large, but particularly rideable. Like, my understanding is that there are going to be feats that are specifically designed to make the "players riding on other players" thing a viable option.

Really? Omoshiroi... I think I'd be happy if there were feats for making actual cavalry and mounted archers viable...the existing rules seem murky, especially with regard to the latter. Like if I spend an action to command my mount to move us and then shoot a bow, am I stationary or moving? (IRL, this kinda has a huge impact on accuracy...)


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The bug ancestry sort of reminds me of the Trox, although a bit smaller. Could be a 2E reinvention of that creature.

Badgerfolk would be pretty cool, and have a folklore precedent. Just like Tanuki and Kitsune, mujina are badger yokai, although more withdrawn and shy than the other yokai.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
BookBird wrote:
I remember it being said they used this book to expand on what they could get away with in ancestry design, and I'm curious now which of these characters it most relates to. Obviously Centaur and Minotaur are large, and Merfolk are aquatic (no idea how walking will work), but I'm wondering what the deal is with the remaining ones. Really excited for Merfolk though, I'm so curious as to their mechanics and lore.

Centaur is not only Large, but particularly rideable. Like, my understanding is that there are going to be feats that are specifically designed to make the "players riding on other players" thing a viable option.

For the badger... a dig speed, possibly?

Does this mean my dreams of recreating Master Blaster might finally happen?


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I would also read that art as Centaur, Klinkoi, Locathah, Merfolk, Minotaur, and [badger]. It’s an exciting spread!

Wayfinders

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The insect person being a klinkoi would make further sense as they're portrayed (best as I can tell) as the airship's machinist, and klinkois were namedropped in the context of Arcadia's industrialized Three Craters area.

The maybe-locathah's design feels very different from all the past portrayals though, closed to an ulat-kini almost. That said, Paizo has been getting very divergent with some of the PF2 ancestries' designs, and they would pair very well with Tian Xia and Xidao.

The badger person is a complete mystery, but would track for the brand-new ancestry, if we treat klinkois as already-existing on account of that brief lore teaser.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I cant decide if I should spread the word of this new art or if it was a mistake and devs wouldn't be a fan of that.


Gaulin wrote:
I cant decide if I should spread the word of this new art or if it was a mistake and devs wouldn't be a fan of that.

Personally I'd keep it here, partly just in case this somehow ends up not being a genuine leak (although I strongly doubt it's fake).


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RiverMesa wrote:
The insect person being a klinkoi would make further sense as they're portrayed (best as I can tell) as the airship's machinist, and klinkois were namedropped in the context of Arcadia's industrialized Three Craters area.

Hmmm.

If so, that would be another bit of support for the Gencon Shaman into Saga Lands into Arcadia predicted arc.

Hmmm.

Does anyone recall who the lead on the upcoming Gencon rulebook is? I think I remember that it was mentioned, but I don't remember who. If it's Michael Sayre, then that's extra support for the idea of it being the Shaman book. (He was the only dev who replied to the Shaman speculation thread back when we were doing that, and he certainly seemed personally invested to me.) Flipside, if it's not Michael Sayre, then that gets less likely.


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We know the other 3 Tian Ancestries are new, so if Locathah are coming, they aren’t in that book - which makes them with a redesign feel pretty likely for the fishy friend here. I think Wanshou and Xidao are two of the most underrated spots on the continent; having some more aquatic player options will help them thrive.

The timeline between hinting at Klinkois in G&G to Howl releasing feels about the same as how long the new Mwangi options arrived after being teased, so I feel pretty confident about them here. It does make me wonder why they weren’t saved for a LO: Arcadia - maybe they have multiple arms, and don’t want a complex Ancestry in a setting book?

As for the art: I wouldn’t worry, I’d assume Paizo gave them the art in a press kit.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I do kinda wonder, how will locathah be renamed to distance itself from OGL?


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I imagine an Arcadia book would have room a lot of new ancestries, it could just be that they're getting a few out of the way first so they have more space for new ones.


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CynDuck wrote:
I imagine an Arcadia book would have room a lot of new ancestries, it could just be that they're getting a few out of the way first so they have more space for new ones.

Yeah... I'd expect this. It's somethign we see a fair it of - stuff that could fit into an LO book, but gets slipped in earlier (or only slightly later) to open up space in the LO book for other things.

I feel like that's at least half of what this whole "prepare the ground" stuff we've been tracking is.


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Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
CorvusMask wrote:
I do kinda wonder, how will locathah be renamed to distance itself from OGL?

They will all be named "Dave".


keftiu wrote:

We know the other 3 Tian Ancestries are new, so if Locathah are coming, they aren’t in that book - which makes them with a redesign feel pretty likely for the fishy friend here. I think Wanshou and Xidao are two of the most underrated spots on the continent; having some more aquatic player options will help them thrive.

The timeline between hinting at Klinkois in G&G to Howl releasing feels about the same as how long the new Mwangi options arrived after being teased, so I feel pretty confident about them here. It does make me wonder why they weren’t saved for a LO: Arcadia - maybe they have multiple arms, and don’t want a complex Ancestry in a setting book?

As for the art: I wouldn’t worry, I’d assume Paizo gave them the art in a press kit.

The new look could also be attributed to a heritage option, like monkey goblins are for Goblin. Or just a redesign for the new edition and/or ORC. But I definitely feel like that's a Locathah. Putting them in this book also has the side-effect of freeing up the spot Locathah would've taken up in Tian Xia for one of their new ancestries.

As for the Klinkoi not being in Arcadia, it could be the complexity as you said, but it could also be them slowly introducing Arcadian ancestries into the game so that there's some foundation for when they finally do a LO book there, and more room to include other ancestries, old or new. Tian Xia did the same thing, with Kitsune, Tengu, and Nagaji all arriving before the LO books. I feel like if that ends up being true your theory of Shaman->Saga Lands->Arcadia is all the more likely.


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I'm really excited for badger folk. Honestly, I kind of hope they're, like, less on the "anthro" side of things? Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against people who just wanna play ratgirls and stuff (in fact, I generally think ancestries should veer more humanlike with the art, as it makes the ancestries more versatile), but badgers, for me, occupy a very specific genre of furry media. C.S. Lewis, Beatrice Potter, Kenneth Graham, Brian Jacques--badgers are kind of fixtures of the kind of furry media where the animal people are basically just animals in human clothes. I love this art.

Also, my loose guess for the round bug person is an isopod, but I genuinely have no idea. Not a lot of bugs are that round. Maybe a cockroach or a scarab beetle? Water beetle, even? I almost thought "tardigrade", but those don't have antennae. Playable ORC-friendly rust monster successor?

A little disappointed we probably aren't getting a "talking animal" ancestry, unless that's the badger, but hope springs eternal.


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CynDuck wrote:
I imagine an Arcadia book would have room a lot of new ancestries, it could just be that they're getting a few out of the way first so they have more space for new ones.

Much like Nagaji being in LO:IL and not the Tian Xia books, this makes good sense!


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:

I'm really excited for badger folk. Honestly, I kind of hope they're, like, less on the "anthro" side of things? Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against people who just wanna play ratgirls and stuff (in fact, I generally think ancestries should veer more humanlike with the art, as it makes the ancestries more versatile), but badgers, for me, occupy a very specific genre of furry media. C.S. Lewis, Beatrice Potter, Kenneth Graham, Brian Jacques--badgers are kind of fixtures of the kind of furry media where the animal people are basically just animals in human clothes. I love this art.

Also, my loose guess for the round bug person is an isopod, but I genuinely have no idea. Not a lot of bugs are that round. Maybe a cockroach or a scarab beetle? Water beetle, even? I almost thought "tardigrade", but those don't have antennae. Playable ORC-friendly rust monster successor?

A little disappointed we probably aren't getting a "talking animal" ancestry, unless that's the badger, but hope springs eternal.

I want awakened animals. I love round things in general and isopods in particular. Everything here is good.


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CynDuck wrote:
I imagine an Arcadia book would have room a lot of new ancestries, it could just be that they're getting a few out of the way first so they have more space for new ones.

They seem to be taking a slow drip approach to Arcadia. I remember way back in the day some of the Paizo folks regretted their approach to introducing Tian Xia, where they had to create everything at once. This seems to be an intentional attempt to avoid it.

Every Arcadian ancestry we get now also frees up more room for an Arcadia book to have other options.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I just wish Casmaron would start getting this sort of love x'D

At least Southern Garund has gotten some hints, but all we know about Casmaron is still from the qadira book and distant shores :'D


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CorvusMask wrote:

I just wish Casmaron would start getting this sort of love x'D

At least Southern Garund has gotten some hints, but all we know about Casmaron is still from the qadira book and distant shores :'D

Playable Centaurs and Minotaurs 100% counts as Casmaron getting love.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah but I also want to know hints of what countries and new ancestries we haven't ever seen before exists there x'D

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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CorvusMask wrote:

I just wish Casmaron would start getting this sort of love x'D

At least Southern Garund has gotten some hints, but all we know about Casmaron is still from the qadira book and distant shores :'D

We can't do everything all at once. We can try to do everything eventually though.


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MMCJawa wrote:
They seem to be taking a slow drip approach to Arcadia. I remember way back in the day some of the Paizo folks regretted their approach to introducing Tian Xia, where they had to create everything at once. This seems to be an intentional attempt to avoid it.

Ah! and I'm now realizing one of the other benefits of taking everything slow drip - it's a lot easier to have it all integrated. Like, if you have to cram all of the Iconic Tian Xia ancestries into the Tian Xia book, then you don't just run out of page space, you also run out of the kind of time you'd want to make sure that they fit into place that aren't Tian Xia. Trying to cram too many things in at once limits the space that you have to Inject More Flavor, but it also limits the time that you have to make sure that stuff makes sense in other contexts. It also lets them work with the inspiration they have in the moment.

Like, oh, hey - we have some cool ideas for centaurs now. Let's get those out there and designed and tested and in people's hands and see how they work... and then when comes time to actually write Casmaron, we can use that as a root to build off, rather than another branch to be balanced. It makes the world in general a bit better blended, and a bit more structurally sound.

...and, delightfully, it's a competitive advantage that D&D simply does not have. Like, sure, Hasbro would probably screw it up out of shortsighted money-chasing even if they were positioned for it, but the way that Golarion is a Thing for PF2 allows a much richer mesh between rules and lore than is possible in systems that are trying to be more setting-agnostic.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:

I'm really excited for badger folk. Honestly, I kind of hope they're, like, less on the "anthro" side of things? Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against people who just wanna play ratgirls and stuff (in fact, I generally think ancestries should veer more humanlike with the art, as it makes the ancestries more versatile), but badgers, for me, occupy a very specific genre of furry media. C.S. Lewis, Beatrice Potter, Kenneth Graham, Brian Jacques--badgers are kind of fixtures of the kind of furry media where the animal people are basically just animals in human clothes. I love this art.

Also, my loose guess for the round bug person is an isopod, but I genuinely have no idea. Not a lot of bugs are that round. Maybe a cockroach or a scarab beetle? Water beetle, even? I almost thought "tardigrade", but those don't have antennae. Playable ORC-friendly rust monster successor?

A little disappointed we probably aren't getting a "talking animal" ancestry, unless that's the badger, but hope springs eternal.

Looks like you're getting your wish, in a way, as the badger is actually an Awakened Animal!


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On the flip side, the bug-person engineer is a new kind of critter called a Surki, rather than any other kind of bug-person, and thus not an Arcadia reference.

also, renamed Locathath confirmed.

So, this basically gives us some more filling-on-the-blanks on Tian Xia (always nice, but not exactly telling us anything we didn't already know), a couple of significant bricks in the foundation for Casmaron. Any other LO books?

Actually... I notice that this book is giving us two different aquatic ancestries. We're getting Tian Xia, which has that Xidao tie-in. We just got Firebrands in... could we be seeing the lead-in to an Aquatic Adventures book of some sort? Possibly something about the Shackles?


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YES, AND I AM SO EXTRAORDINARILY HAPPY ABOUT IT


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Actually... I notice that this book is giving us two different aquatic ancestries. We're getting Tian Xia, which has that Xidao tie-in. We just got Firebrands in... could we be seeing the lead-in to an Aquatic Adventures book of some sort? Possibly something about the Shackles?

I would love an aquatic themed book. :D


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jacob Jett wrote:
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Actually... I notice that this book is giving us two different aquatic ancestries. We're getting Tian Xia, which has that Xidao tie-in. We just got Firebrands in... could we be seeing the lead-in to an Aquatic Adventures book of some sort? Possibly something about the Shackles?
I would love an aquatic themed book. :D

That thought did cross my mind. I'd love to see LO High Seas that fleshed out all of the underwater stuff that we only got glimpses of in Ruins of Azlant.


Huh. Actually, Rage of Elements is a bit of a feed-in for any sort of High Seas book too, isn't it? I mean, you don't want your oceanic adventures books to neglect water elementals, after all.

For that matter, with Tian Xia, we now have an Interesting Place that's far enough away from our other Interesting Places that braving a long and dangerous ocean voyage to get from the one to the other makes a fair bit of sense... and by the same token, it would be a bit of an unlock for Arcadia.

Huh.

Nothing here is anything strong enough for any sort of guarantee... but it does kind of gesture broadly in the direction of "maybe" while waggling its eyebrows, doesn't it?

There's also a bit of an Alghollthu-shaped crossover between the Oceanic Adventures book(s) and the Aberration book. That gives us no information as to which one comes first, but it does suggest that they might cling together to a degree.

So... we've been seeing some love for Casmaron lately, but... not enough. Like, it feels like you'd need both Mythic and Aberration, bare minimum, and that's one rulebook too many to come out as The Next Thing. On the other hand, an aberration lead-in to a heavily aquatic LO book and AP, followed by Mythic in due time and then Casmaron? That starts looking a lot more plausible.


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I would also remind folks that in an AMA last year, Luis Loza explicitly said sailing rules might be the kind of thing to replace a class playtest within their time budget.


I'm a bit less certain of an aquatic-focused book myself, though that's mostly because aquatic adventures feel like one of those niches that might not sell terribly well. I'm going off hunches and supposition here, not any hard data, but aquatic rules are something of a binary; either you want them because you are running an aquatic campaign, in which case they are useful, or you are running a campaign anywhere else, and they aren't.

That could be one reason we are seeing aquatic ancestries being released piecemeal. The intention is to give those folks who enjoy aquatic stuff a little something while not hyper-focusing the book on that subject so that it has broader appeal, but over time giving aquatic-minded players enough options to feel confident in playing an entirely aquatic campaign.


Perpdepog wrote:

I'm a bit less certain of an aquatic-focused book myself, though that's mostly because aquatic adventures feel like one of those niches that might not sell terribly well. I'm going off hunches and supposition here, not any hard data, but aquatic rules are something of a binary; either you want them because you are running an aquatic campaign, in which case they are useful, or you are running a campaign anywhere else, and they aren't.

That could be one reason we are seeing aquatic ancestries being released piecemeal. The intention is to give those folks who enjoy aquatic stuff a little something while not hyper-focusing the book on that subject so that it has broader appeal, but over time giving aquatic-minded players enough options to feel confident in playing an entirely aquatic campaign.

I don't actually know how well an aquatic rulebook would work... but it doesn't have to be a rulebook. We could very easily be getting it as a Lost Omens book, at which point it's no more specific than any other Lost Omens book. We could easily get it as a heavy focus in an AP as well - APs can be as specific as they want to be.

At the same time, if they turned the "doing things in ships" rules into an opportunity to put a fresh coat of varnish and some touch-ups on vehicular rules in general, I could see that having a somewhat broader appeal. HotW has at least a few references to an airship, after all....


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More low-level vehicles with party-sized seating would be really nice. Please just let us do wagon chases!


wouldn't mind a aquatic book or a lost omens shackles I love pirates!


Kobold Catgirl wrote:
More low-level vehicles with party-sized seating would be really nice. Please just let us do wagon chases!

Or a vehicle modification system that can let us get that party seating, and also increase the operational time of clockwork vehicles.


Food for thought: do we think Rusthenge and Seven Dooms For Sandpoint are the extent of the Saga Lands love in 2024?


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keftiu wrote:
Food for thought: do we think Rusthenge and Seven Dooms For Sandpoint are the extent of the Saga Lands love in 2024?

There's a story they should do eventually about "where are the Stasian Coils coming from?" that will lead back to Irrisen.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hmm. We're going to Tian Xia early on next year. Closing out the year by going where it all started feels thematically appropriate. Both because of the Remaster (not that that was the plan), and because it would be the first LO book that borders the Eye of Dread*. It's about time we started checking on exactly what's going on over there. And New Eurythnia is right up against Belkzen, so Sorshen will be doing all sorts of things both in the Eye and in the Saga Lands proper. And the Lands of the Linnorm Kings are both the starting point for land trips to Tian Xia from Avistan and have ties to Arcadia as well**. And James Jacobs has confirmed that Xanderghul isn't as dead as we had been led to believe. And it's never wise to make assumptions where Baba Yaga is concerned (she may have loosened her grip on Irrisen, but I highly doubt she's stopped pulling the strings from the shadows). And Belimarius making jabs at Celwynvian gets potentially very interesting with the Remaster.

*-- technically Highhelm would be the first as it is in the Shining Kingdoms, but it doesn't sound like it will deal much with that (unlike Sky King's Tomb, which if I'm correct will have Ramifications when The Throwdown finally happens).

**-- Luis will not be contained forever.


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The Saga Lands as the “hinge” between Tian Xia and Arcadia theory has always made good since, but I didn’t even think of how revisiting the classics pairs so well with the Remaster! Doing a bit of a back-to-basics reset (Runelords, Varisia, etc) to go with your new corebooks makes really good sense… and throws fans of more classic fantasy a bone in between these big non-European swings.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I will be very interested to see if that's where they end up going. I listed out most* of the reasons why the I think it's time we took a look at the Saga Lands, and you're 100% right to say that it goes super well with the Remaster. It would be an unintentional masterstroke if that's what ends up happening. (Plus, I really want the first ORC AP to happen in Varisia entirely for the nostalgia factor)

*-- we got a lot of Impossible Lands related material in the lead-up to the LOIL book; Seven Dooms and Rusthenge count, and Howl could as well because the Saga Lands seem relatively sparsely populated.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

(Too late for me to edit, so I'll just have to add it here...)

I was looking at the Pathfinder 2e subreddit and checked out the post for Seven Dooms. Among other things, James Jacobs said that one of the plot threads from the Sandpoint book will not be followed up on here, but he suspects that something will be done with it later that year. That's an awful lot of Saga Lands if we're not getting a book.

In case you were wondering which plot thread I'm talking about:
The Ashen Man


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How of the Wild does also get us those Varisian Centaurs playable, butI’m not sure if any of the other new Ancestries are in the region. Aren’t there some Merfolk off the coast?

Silver Crusade

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Yeah, sorta, the Merfolk of Chosovosei maintain good relations with the elves of Mordant Spire, and the Steaming Sea includes the coast so...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

So James Jacobs and Adam Daigle said during the adventures panel that…

- Adventure paths are moving away from starting at first level
- The level range of APs is chosen very specifically so that different adventures can lead into each other, and that…
- We’ll learn more at GenCon

All of this seems to suggest to me that AP #201 onward is something that can possibly follow Seven Dooms of Sandpoint and starts at level 12/13. I might be reading too much into what was said there, but a man can dream.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think that's a good assumption with two APs ending at 12 in the coming months


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I believe Erik Mona mentioned on the Discord that there's something big for the Inner Sea being announced at Gen Con, which wouldn't surprise me if it was a 12-20 big climactic Something.


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keftiu wrote:
I believe Erik Mona mentioned on the Discord that there's something big for the Inner Sea being announced at Gen Con, which wouldn't surprise me if it was a 12-20 big climactic Something.

Like it's about time Tar-Baphon did something, and whatever he does it's not necessarily something you want to send level 1 nobodies to deal with.

Like the Gravelands are not a place you ought to be if you're liable to just die whenever you run into a Razorclaw Ghoul, a Vrykolakas Elder, or a Skeletal Titan. Since this is the place on Golarion with the most liches per capita.

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