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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber. 7,383 posts. 1 review. No lists. 1 wishlist.


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Right now, I really want a Darklands Hardcover. We haven't gotten a dedicated book since 3.5, outside of the revisited volume that covered the creatures that dwelled down there. It would be a good place to put more lore on the various subterranean civilizations and adventure sites, character options centered on adventuring down there including new ancestries, feats, etc. Also, we it would be an opportunity to sketch out exactly what the Darklands are like outside of the Inner Sea. I wouldn't expect detailed information, but just a page or two with the key points. So far that information is only available for Tian Xia. What sort of weirdness lies underneath Casmaron, Southern Garund, or Arcadia? Lots of potential cool possibilities. Bonus points for the last bits in that it would also give some fun stuff to people who want that region.

For the surface world, Casmaron and Garund would be my priority. Both have the most direct connections to the Inner Sea and make sense to flesh out more first. Not that I don't like Arcadia, but I think the direct neighbors should be dealt with first.


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keftiu wrote:
Luis Loza wrote:
Would you (and everyone else here!) find a Lost Omen book that has more encounter maps, short adventures, and the like useful? I don't know if a book that is just adventures is the best fit for this line, but there might be a way to give it the Lost Omen spin, as it were, and make it a book that features content for players and GMs of all kinds, not just 128 pages of adventure.
I wouldn't personally like this, no. Pathfinder has hundreds of enemies and hazards I can use to build my own encounters, but the Lost Omens line is where I go for my direct injection of delicious setting lore.

I'd agree with keftiu. I enjoy the the campaign line books for lore and monsters (especially monsters). I'm not that big into little mini-adventures being plugged in, because between the APs and other materials that seems well-covered. If anything, I wish the Dark Archive book didn't have the adventures and replaced that with more specific lore and thematic monsters.


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James Jacobs wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Sea Monsters Revisited was the book I always wanted us to do but we never got around to it. These books were a lot of fun to write and create, but... the more we did, the less they tended to sell, alas, so we shifted away from doing them to do other stuff.

We did (and still do) continue to do articles like this for monsters relatively often in the Adventure Paths though!

Sea Monsters would have been a fun addition to the line!

I understand why there was shift away from the line. At some point you are bound to run into a situation where you it's harder to find enticing themes anyway. Hopefully, besides APs, we can get more monster love in general in some of the future hardbacks, even if they are not dedicated entirely to monsters. I usually read the monster related stuff first in APs, but it's nice to have things concentrated rather than scattered through multiple random books.

Finding enticing themes was not an issue. I had several ideas for more volumes in the series. Sea Monsters Revisited was just my number one. But after doing Demons Revisited, that pretty much opened up the potential of doing a revisited book for all of the outsider types, just on its own. A few others I'd been hoping to do at some point include things like "Arctic Monsters Revisited" or "Mythos Monsters Revisited" or "Legendary Monsters Revisited." This one really did come down to the harsh reality of sales numbers, alas.

Here's hoping that our latest version of this book, "Monsters of Myth" does well enough to warrant more! (And if you like the old revisited books and haven't checked out "Monsters of Myth," you really should!)

I did actually...really enjoyed it! I would not be opposed to seeing some books similar to this dealing with other creatures cough mythos cough...


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magnuskn wrote:
Excellent news. Of course it'll be interesting to see if the ORC goes anywhere now.

I think even if the OGL is safe, that doesn't mean WotC won't find other ways to milk the DnD brand dry. I'd expect it to be more likely that a 6E will be less backward compatible, and they probably won't allow any other company to make 6E products. I'd imagine there are also some other future business plans (They have almost certainly thought about Microtransactioning DnD via virtual tabletops) which might hurt the market.

I think its still probably better for everyone to sign onto the ORC effort and keep doing what they are doing, rather than potentially tie themselves to a sinking ship or worry about what the next clueless executive has planned 5 years down the road.


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James Jacobs wrote:

Sea Monsters Revisited was the book I always wanted us to do but we never got around to it. These books were a lot of fun to write and create, but... the more we did, the less they tended to sell, alas, so we shifted away from doing them to do other stuff.

We did (and still do) continue to do articles like this for monsters relatively often in the Adventure Paths though!

Sea Monsters would have been a fun addition to the line!

I understand why there was shift away from the line. At some point you are bound to run into a situation where you it's harder to find enticing themes anyway. Hopefully, besides APs, we can get more monster love in general in some of the future hardbacks, even if they are not dedicated entirely to monsters. I usually read the monster related stuff first in APs, but it's nice to have things concentrated rather than scattered through multiple random books.


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Yep...I think I have practically all of these as pdfs if not hardcopies. They were my favorite series and sad to see it end, even if I do understand they covered a lot of low-hanging fruit as it were.


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Storm Dragon wrote:
Flumphs to my knowledge were never actually OGL-compatible, much like Illithid and Beholders.

Flumphs are open content due to I believe Tome of Horrors, along with a bunch of other less popular things. Hence why they exist in Pathfinder 1E at least

Whether or not they would be if WotC goes through with there deauthorization plan would be the question.

The name Drow also is from folklore, although the depiction of them is a DnD creation.


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For Tieflings, I would just have it be societal. They aren't born evil, but there is a high probability they are going to have pretty unhappy childhoods and face a lot of discrimination from their peers. You are a walking reminder to your parents that they survived some horrific black magic event or ritual, or that they dabbled in things they shouldn't have, or that some ancestor in there past did and brought shame on them. People you meet will assume you are evil or even that you are a demon.

And you are likely to be sought out by disreputable folks you want to use your reputation and scariness, so on top of all of that there is also the "fall into a bad crowd" problem.


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I like it in moderation. Reign of Winter and Iron Gods are some of my favorite APs, as I generally prefer the more experimental paths. I probably wouldn't like it as much if the elements were used more commonly. Tech and such wouldn't feel special if it was common.

I'd love to see a full AP focused on the Dominion of the Black. I think that would be a great place to put more science fiction elements in.


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Leon Aquilla wrote:

I think some people were easily bait and switched by the proposal of CC-BY release of the core rules. I don't own the books so I don't know the text of what's being referenced, but the impression I got was it was dumb crap like falling damage, asphyxiation, and other things that aren't really worth worrying about.

Spells, Monsters, subsystems, etc., all still walled off in the SRD.

The fact that some people are throwing up their hands and screaming "We won!" just goes to show you that some people are more about pushing their pet distribution license (CC) than actually changing anything.

Yeah that was my impression as well. It sounds like they are making a big generous concession when really they are giving away the elements that people could already use, as you can't copyright game rules. I mean from online chatter it seems like it has helped them, in that folks who don't much care about 5E but thought WotC's new policies were too draconian, now feel justified in continuing to support the company. Those folks would have probably found some reason to come back anyway though.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Here's an ENworld blog post about the latest(?) WotC/Hasbro position. I think Princessmaker explained it best in comment #7: "It looks like the lawyers took extra care to separate what parts of the SRD would make them lose a court case against the "you can't copyright game mechanics" and they just closed the rest of the SRD."

Yeah that seems to be the case. Stuff like "experience points" are so prevalent across gaming outside of DnD that they couldn't really claim exclusivity, while concepts like Vancian casting are just straight up stolen from pre-existing fantasy literature.

Even then, pretending that things like classes or many of the races and monsters are somehow exclusive DnD ideas is still bs.


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keftiu wrote:

Human, Elf, Gnome, Goblin, Orc - everybody in the corebook has a name that stands as a self-label other than these two, which describe them relative to the height of a 'normal' humanoid. We've seen a bunch of other Ancestries advance their endonyms recently, but do these two really stand alone?

One way around this might simply be that the term Dwarf for the ancestry/species was the original term for the word, but then it began to be applied to everything that was a bit shorter and stouter than others. There is a history of this phenomena in the real world origin of words, so it makes sense for Dwarves. FYI In my own non-TTRPG setting I use Dverg, which is the German word for Dwarf.

Alternatively, going with Norse language, maybe they used to all be called Duergar, but regular dwarves don't like to be associated with that name now for obvious reasons.

Halfling for me has always been a silly name, so that is something I wouldn't mind seeing an alternative version of.


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I'd like a focus on ancestries different from what is present in the Inner Sea region. I like Dwarves, elves, and gnomes as much as the next person, but ultimately they derive from European folklore and inspired fantasy. I think the areas away from Avistan should draw from the regions of the world they are based. Although to be fair Little People are a pretty common feature of NA lore.

Also, not sure if this has been brought up anywhere, but I recall in one of the PF1E books a mention of a Sasquatch/Bigfoot ancestry (different from the already established Sasquatch monster. So I am hoping those are still around and might get detailed as a main ancestry.


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Going with some of what was said in the beginning, Thuvia seems the most underdeveloped. Given that their main export is a product of alchemy, I would just double down on Thuvia being the leader in Alchemical research in the inner sea. Give them homunculi and super-soldier armies, transmutation factories that turn desert sand into valuable materials, alchemically treated castle-walls hard as diamond. Go crazy. I'd love to see what Paizo and folks could come up with a theme centered on alchemy.


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I actually own Age of Ashes already...It was my last AP before I went on hiatus.


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Shoonies of Golarion...Give me 300 pages of Pugfolk goodnesss.

More seriously, I do feel that the less common ancestries do need more support. PF2E with its requirement of ancestry feats does make playing anything that isn't a major race kind of difficult.


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The Monk isn't so much the "Asian" class as it's obviously the "Wuxia" and "Hong Kong Martial Arts" class. Just like Barbarian is the Conan class. I don't know if you can really fully divorce the modern monk from those origins and still have something people would be fine calling a monk.

It does make me wonder, if DnD and TTRPG were something whose origins dated to now, what sort of basic classes would be created to emulate today's popular genre fiction. We probably wouldn't get a Monk but I suspect we might get something drawn from the over the top action movies out of India, which I feel like are starting to fill that niche.


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TheRabidOgre wrote:


I've seen a lot of people dismiss Druid, but they really have nothing to do with their real world counterparts and I've seen that lead to a lot of weird confusion and misrepresentation in the modern day because of how pervasive the...

We really don't know anything about the historical druid, since most of what we know comes from the Romans and other foreign chroniclers. And their descriptions were often so heavily tinged with propaganda to justify the Celtic conquest that a lot of it is just probably straight fiction.


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Well, this probably isn't the way WotC were hoping 6E would unite the tabletop community...


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Antony Walls wrote:

Paizo have already shifted the presentation and mythology of many creatures away from legacy tropes. For instance, drow in the bestiary are described as

"The hues of their eyes became sinister red or bleached white, and their flesh adopted an unearthly lavender sheen that made the drow instantly recognizable."

This serves the, welcome, purpose of shifting them away from real-life analogies and moves them away from their previous trade dress.

There are close comparisons in Scots and Norse mythology.

Yeah...I am aware of the shift in coloration (although I think that was less to do with DnD comparison and more about some unfortunate implications of having evil elves turn dark-skinned).

There are dark elves in Norse Mythology, however their never really described, and at least some scholars think they are the same thing as Dwarves. I'd still say the PF version isn't terribly dissimilar to the DnD version.


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So, here is the question I have been having since the whole OGL 1.1 ruckus has started. My apologies is this has come up and been dealt with in another thread...but there is a lot of conversation out there about this stuff.

I know game mechanics (rules) can't be copyrighted. And it is legally dubious anyway that WotC can actually legal revoke the existing OGL and content published under it. Obviously stuff not in the SRD and WotC property can't be used. Hence no Mind Flayer or Beholder.

And then you have things like Dwarves and Elves. Both derive from folklore and fantasy literature, and the DnD version is generic enough that WotC can't really make a claim to them, and at least in the case of Elves, the Pathfinder version is pretty distinct, what with the whole "aliens from Venus" thing they got going.

Now here is the more complicated situations.

Take Drow. Drow are in the SRD. The name Drow also is from folklore (being an alternative spelling of the more common Trow). However, the description of Drow is basically something that DnD came up with and is fairly unique (even if derived from Black Martians in Burroughs's Mars fiction). That is, Drow being "dark"-skinned, white-haired subterranean elves who are also sadistic chaotic evil and matriarchal, with an association with arthropods. So even if you can't copyright their mechanics, could WotC target Drow for IP/Trademark reasons?

Doubly so with...say...owlbears, or flumphs, or Mimics, which as far as I know are a complete DnD invention. Can WotC claim trademark and IP for them?

If so, does that mean Paizo will have to rework them significantly, or drop them from future products?


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willfromamerica wrote:
I'll also throw out there that Blood Lords is a pretty great time - it's an investigation-heavy campaign to stop a plot against the nation of Geb.

I was curious about that one, as it feels like running a party in Geb would be...difficult. Is this in "Evil" AP or do you play as undead?


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I think Scott will probably get stuck in the Quantum Realm. And I certainly don't see Cassie dying in this film. Given the recasting and everything else in Phase 4, it seems like they are setting up the Young Avengers, and I could even see her being a rallying figure, assembling that team to help fight Kang.


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I don't know if anyone here currently remembers me, but I used to post quite often up to the point of the transition to 2E. Sufficient to say I took a step back from Pathfinder, in part because of a new cross country job which took up a lot of my time, and investing in more non-gaming related hobbies.

At any rate, with the ORC news I have been looking at more PF2E stuff, in part because I am hoping the fallout might convince locals to become more interested in the game (my local region appears to be a pathfinder deadzone).

So folks...as someone who happens to know the lore pretty well up to Age of Ashes, what have been folks favorite PF2E original AP's?


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I streamed both season together...I actually think this show sort of maybe works better as a binge than individual eps?


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If they ever want to bring Ultron back, he is the easiest possible character to do so. Just have someone recover a sentinel drone with some of his programming preserved.

Also, I always thought that Zola had copies himself on that flashdrive when Natasha and Steve were investigating shield. They took that flashdrive with them, so there is a ready source for more Zola if they want.


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If there is anything that can get me off my but and get my account working again, after years of being absent, it's talk of B5

Anyway...I was a pretty hardcore fan of the series back in the day...Hell I even have the box set. I am "mostly" stoked about the idea of more B5, even if its a reboot. My only reservation really is the CW, and that is for budget reasons. While I have watched and enjoyed some of the DC shows, you can't exactly say the effects on them have always been that great. I would feel a lot better if this was an HBO max show. Also...CW seems to be angling for a much younger crowd with many of its shows than the crowd that B5 would work best for. So that makes me a bit apprehensive as well

That said, I will be curious as hell how some of the alien races get updated assuming there are better effects. And I will be curious to see how some elements get re-imagined given the world we live in now versus then.

I just hope they keep all the LOTR influences including the Shadows, which were one of my favorite elements.


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OH yeah, half of these folks will be lucky if they survive the title credits.

My guess is the core team is going to include Harley, Bloodsport, Captain Boomerang, King Shark, Ratcatcher and maybe a couple of others

Well and Waller obviously


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I risked it....our theater opened today for the first time since spring. I figured that the first showing on the first day of opening on a weekday would be relatively safe.

I actually really liked it. Although I was amused after this movie being delayed and delayed, technical problems at my theater meant that the movie ended up playing an hour late.


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2020 Continues to be the worst year ever

‘Black Panther’ star Chadwick Boseman dies of cancer at 43.


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Goblins are french in origin, and early in their history were largely considered malevolent mischievous spirits, many times associated with households. Later they were depicted as more demonic creatures, and considered to be witches familiars.Gobli-like creatures are a very very common archetype in folklore. Most cultures have some variation of goblins, even if the description and the degree of evilness varies.

I've heard the "goblin as "Jewish caricature", but this is solely based off a recent trend in some fantasy works to spin them as a greedy and clever long-nosed mercantile race. I don't think I ever encountered that before the 2000's,


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I like these, although I agree with the other poster that Ares always has felt evil more than anything else. The Greeks (or at least the Athenians) themselves had a low opinion of him, although the Romans were fans.

Hades is absolutely neutral though. In the grand scale of things he is the one god who has probably done the least harmful actions towards others. Even the thing with Persephone, depending on your source, can be read more as a star-crossed lovers scenario than a unwilling abduction.


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Have any of the new monsters been pulled from folklore/mythology/pop culture? I was a bit disappointed to find that, as far as I can tell, the only monsters with those as sources are existing monsters being readapted for PF2E. Which is a shame, as I always like seeing how they interpret those sorts of creatures.


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Ravingdork wrote:


That's kind of the rub, really. The people who are loudest about cultural appropriation often aren't members of the cultural group in question. It's a bizarre phenomenon to be sure!

If something offends a particular cultural group, they tend to let people know about it. If they don't ever bring it up, than it's probably not that big a deal, and people outside the group probably shouldn't make it into one. If I can't represent a given culture because I'm not a member, how is it right that you can do so as a non-member of said culture by claiming cultural appropriation in the first place?

Unless brought forward by a member of the culture in question, it's just hypocrisy. Even then, the lack of clearly defined limitations and expectations often only leads to problems.

While I probably mostly agree with your sentiments, I am not sure this is a good argument. As we have seen recently, even if an affected group complains, if they have little power those complaints have chance of getting media exposure. There are a lot of things going on currently that severely impact Native American cultures, but how often do they make the news?


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I am not a Native American, but I am a bit of a folklore nut. So maybe my words don't matter as much, and I certainly would bow to the knowledge of any posters here from the culture in question. That said...

I have never really heard anything about the name Windigo name being forbidden or taboo...in fact its specifically used as a moral story dealing with the dangers of greed and selfishness (something already brought up here). And I would be curious how many folks within those societies ACTUALLY BELIEVE in windigos as real entities and not simply fictional creations. Reading folklore/mythology and automatically assuming that everyone in that culture believes something is 100% real is a stereotype that can be just as damaging as cultural appropriation.

This isn't the case for skinwalkers, which have a far far more sinister reputation and are less monsters and more evil sorcerers.

Cultural appropriation is a serious issue, but I don't think it translates as "No one is allowed to use anything from any other culture ever". That taken to its extreme will just result in people white-washing settings and excluding minorities from fictional works. What it does mean is that if used, you should try to stay true to the source material. Paizo's take on the Windigo is actually more accurate that a lot of other media representations of the monster, which usually just turn it into a evil bigfoot. About the only thing off from it is the "deer head" thing, which is a pop-cultural development with origins from the early 2000's film Windigo. Even then that is a cosmetic change that doesn't impact the story much...there is actually a fair degree of variation on what windigos look like depending on where you are in the northeast.


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Kineticist followed by Medium

They have unique themes and would be well suited for unique mechanics. And I feel like their uniqueness means that they should really come out earlier than later in the edition, so there is time to give them enough options. Versus characters like shamans and so forth, which I assume will benefit from existing spell lists and options.


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GeraintElberion wrote:

I was really excited to see the Blodeuwedd feature in a Paizo product.

Then I was disappointed when it was described as living in landscapes which do not exist in Wales.

That’s part of the challenge of playing with cultural sources, people are excited to be represented and that makes any disappointments more crushing.

I’ve also always been annoyed by the gorgon. Gorgons in Greek myth are cool, don’t dump the name on something dull.

IIRC, you will have to pin that on the Medieval bestiary scribes, who I think were the first to come up with the DnD style gorgon. That was then the later source of inspiration for Gygax and co.


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I don't know if they would put entirely new classes and rule systems into a specific sub region book, unless the region was large enough and the class specific enough that it made sense. It would be too limiting for the basic character options they would want to apply to a class


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The Greeks put them in India, so perhaps Vudra?


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keftiu wrote:
MMCJawa wrote:
keftiu wrote:

Mwangi Expanse book, Southern Garund book, Arcadia book(s). I wouldn’t ask for much else if we had all those.

I certainly wouldn’t mind a Casmaron book, but that would need psionics and I think 1e would’ve had them if we were ever going to see them.

Why do you think Casmaron needs psionics?
This is the deepest cut imaginable, but in the Legacy of Fire player’s guide, it suggests any psions studied their craft in Casmaron as a PC background. They also fit like a dream for Vudra.

Psionics has been pretty much retconned out of the setting, and replaced with occult magic. A lot of the 3.5 stuff from early on really doesn't apply anymore.


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I think the priority is bringing back the core elements for me...let get the occult classes, guns, summoners, technology and various races into play. And I would like to see them tackle mythic again: I think there is a lot of room to improve and update that system, now that we have years of seeing folks play around with the former rules.

As far as original hardcovers, I think its a shame we never got a hardcover Darklands book. Now would be a good opportunity to rectify it. And if we are going to use some new book models, something like 3E's environment themed books (frostburn, etc) would make good additions.


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keftiu wrote:

Mwangi Expanse book, Southern Garund book, Arcadia book(s). I wouldn’t ask for much else if we had all those.

I certainly wouldn’t mind a Casmaron book, but that would need psionics and I think 1e would’ve had them if we were ever going to see them.

Why do you think Casmaron needs psionics?


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keftiu wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

We're long overdue for a new Tian Xia book.

- Monk styles got a big overhaul and "my school is better than your school" is a very viable adventure premise now.
- Just like in the inner sea region, we need some updates on how things ended up after some of the APs like Jade Regent.

I wouldn't be holding my breath for a Tian Xia book, knowing how the previous Dragon Empires books went down (read: super-popular with the narrow pro-Asian subset of the fanbase, ignored by everybody else).

A "continents beyond Inner Sea" book is likely the best thing we'll be getting.

A Tian Xia book would likely do better if the Tian Xia adventure path had actually been set there.

I too think a Tian Xia book would do a lot better than people give it credit for. The new model going forward is to combine campaign setting material with crunch. Provide a lot of good crunch and the folks into that will buy it (even if it seems Asian themed), while folks interested in the setting will buy it for the lore.


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It's poorly timed for sure, but I don't see this as problematic as many people think it is.

For starters, I doubt the scenarios in the AP will in any way remotely resemble the situations with modern policing. I trust Paizo to steer far away from methods employed by modern police. Also, I expect the antagonists to be the worst of the worst. This is a world where you have cults devoted to demons, multiple gods of murder, and numerous monsters that eat or otherwise violate innocents. I expect those to be the opponents PCs will face, not folks committing minor misdemeanors.

Secondly, this is a fantasy setting that bears little connection to the real world. Even if you think police or the concept of police is pure evil, I don't see how non-evil police in the setting is any harder to swallow than Gods being real or magical healing


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I think a crime AP would be fun, basically Ocean's 8 but in Golarion. Lots of complicated heists, evasion of the law, and dealing with crooked cops, rival gangs, and powerful crime lords

On a related note: an espionage AP would also be great. Play a member of a crack team of spies who are investigating a mystery that involves covertly taking out bad guys and infiltrating nefarious groups.

Something to do with exploring the mystery behind Zon Kuthon and his descent into darkness.


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page length is really only a concern to me in the sense that many campaign setting books might have been smaller in page number, but were more focused, covering a single nation or region, or a very specific topic. I worry that larger format books might also result in less focused books...rather than 60 something pages devoted to Irrisen, we'll get 160 pages for the sagalands, with each region getting a smaller amount of coverage for instance.

That said, there are some campaign setting books that absolutely could have used more coverage, including some of the more crunch heavy books or books covering a very broad topic, like the Dragon Empires CS book.


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Although it's best that Paizo probably doesn't try to do a playable giant race called goliaths, the name is from legend and used to describe a "giant" man. A 3PP could probably create a goliath ancestry or monster as long as they took a different approach than WOTC.


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Kekkres wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Changing the look of the nagaji was, in fact, one of the things I mentioned that we'd be looking at, since the 1st edition look was all over the place.

As long as Nagaji, Iruxi, and other non-mammalian ancestries don't have boobs, I'll be fine with whatever they do.

that only follows if they lay eggs, if they give live birth like rattlesnakes do, breasts are valid.... well honestly anything is valid since these races where made rather than having evolved, but they would be practical in the case of live birth reptiles.

Except reptiles that give live birth (which is pretty different from what mammals do) don't have breasts. And even in mammals, human-like breasts are the exception not the rule...I don't recall structurally similar pieces of anatomy in anything outside of apes. I mean you could just as easily argue they should have udders...


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If looking at the major holes in the system as of right now, I would say the following are the single biggest holes:

Guns
Advanced tech (necessary for Numeria)
Mythic (Necessary to figure out high level demigod threats work)
Mass combat

Guns seems the most reasonable thing in the above list to bring into unannounced hardcover, and you could do so via a equipment book (which PF2E still needs), or a more general book focused on class options. I am not actually terribly convinced we will see the latter options as soon.


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Alahazra was one of my least favorite iconics, so I am more than happy with an iconic Tengu instead.

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