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A primal themed book with the Shaman and/or the Shifter is very possible, but I don't think they'd use Droon for that. They certainly wouldn't have been so coy with the hints. I'm leaning towards Lost Omens: Southern Garund.
ETA: That said, PaizoCon is coming up fast, and GenCon not too long after that. We could get a bunch of classes the way we did the last time D&D had an edition change.
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A primal themed book with the Shaman and/or the Shifter is very possible, but I don't think they'd use Droon for that. They certainly wouldn't have been so coy with the hints. I'm leaning towards Lost Omens: Southern Garund.
ETA: That said, PaizoCon is coming up fast, and GenCon not too long after that. We could get a bunch of classes the way we did the last time D&D had an edition change.
We're apparently getting two rulebook announcements - one at Gencon, one at Paizocon. Paizo is pretty good at metering out their available community resources, including level of playtest enthusiasm. It's possible that said resources will have meaningfully improved with the recent OGL/ORC-based influx, but they haven't had a playtest since then, so they won't have a way to judge for that. Strategically, I see relatively limited upside and potentially notable downside in trying to push this new playerbase too hard, especially before they've actually had a chance to see them in action as playtesters.
So, given that, I figure they'll have been planning off of old numbers. Old numbers say that they'll have playtesting resources refreshed enough to handle two standard classes, or one kineticist-style extra-complicated class. I can't see any real reason to split the classes up if they're going to have two? As such, I'm going to make a pretty safe prediction that one of the rulebooks is not going to have classes in it. I'm pretty sure that we'll get classes in the other one, though - I don't think Paizo wants to waste this year's crop of playtesting resources by letting them rot on the vine.
One interesting question that this brings up, though, is whether Shaman counts as an extra-complicated class. I mean, if we're including a whole new subsystem for cashing in spell slots in return for bennies from the spirits, then it might. I think I don't expect it to, though. That kind of complexity is expensive in pages and dev time, and while the results might be kind of cool, I don't see them being enough cooler than what could be achieved with a more reasonable page count to be worth that kind of investment. Still, I allow of the possibility that Paizo might disagree with me on this point, and if they do disagree, I expect that they're correct.
A primal themed book with the Shaman and/or the Shifter is very possible, but I don't think they'd use Droon for that. They certainly wouldn't have been so coy with the hints. I'm leaning towards Lost Omens: Southern Garund.
ETA: That said, PaizoCon is coming up fast, and GenCon not too long after that. We could get a bunch of classes the way we did the last time D&D had an edition change.
We're apparently getting two rulebook announcements - one at Gencon, one at Paizocon. Paizo is pretty good at metering out their available community resources, including level of playtest enthusiasm. It's possible that said resources will have meaningfully improved with the recent OGL/ORC-based influx, but they haven't had a playtest since then, so they won't have a way to judge for that. Strategically, I see relatively limited upside and potentially notable downside in trying to push this new playerbase too hard, especially before they've actually had a chance to see them in action as playtesters.
So, given that, I figure they'll have been planning off of old numbers. Old numbers say that they'll have playtesting resources refreshed enough to handle two standard classes, or one kineticist-style extra-complicated class. I can't see any real reason to split the classes up if they're going to have two? As such, I'm going to make a pretty safe prediction that one of the rulebooks is not going to have classes in it. I'm pretty sure that we'll get classes in the other one, though - I don't think Paizo wants to waste this year's crop of playtesting resources by letting them rot on the vine.
One interesting question that this brings up, though, is whether Shaman counts as an extra-complicated class. I mean, if we're including a whole new subsystem for cashing in spell slots in return for bennies from the spirits, then it might. I think I don't expect it to, though. That kind of complexity is expensive in pages and dev time, and while the results might be...
Do you remember where you heard that about the two rulebooks? I can't quite recall something like it.
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Do you remember where you heard that about the two rulebooks? I can't quite recall something like it.
Michael Sayre teased the two book announcements (one at PaizoCon, one at GenCon, and neither being related to the PF2E Remaster Project) in this forum post found HERE.
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Do you remember where you heard that about the two rulebooks? I can't quite recall something like it.Michael Sayre teased the two book announcements (one at PaizoCon, one at GenCon, and neither being related to the PF2E Remaster Project) in this forum post found HERE.
Yep - and after seeking a bit of clarification I found them more or less saying that this was basically SOP - announce one rulebook at Paizocon, one at Gencon. It's not a guarantee or anything, but it sounds like they consider to be good business practices.
Derp. I completely forgot Sayre said they’d announce another rulebook at paizocon. Thank you Sanity for that reminder.
I did say I had a bad headache that morning…
Oh wow it was just a few posts above my first comment, I can't believe I missed it. Thank you for pointing it out to me. Now I'm seeing the new classes angle in the grandmother teaser a bit more. If I had to guess I'd say that Baranthet would be either a Shifter iconic, or a new class entirely. I don't really get the inclination for any other class from him.
A primal themed book with the Shaman and/or the Shifter is very possible, but I don't think they'd use Droon for that. They certainly wouldn't have been so coy with the hints. I'm leaning towards Lost Omens: Southern Garund.
ETA: That said, PaizoCon is coming up fast, and GenCon not too long after that. We could get a bunch of classes the way we did the last time D&D had an edition change.
The focus of these posts seems to be more on setting up these new Wardens of the Wild rather than Droon, and I doubt they'd be tied to one specific region of the world. I would love a Southern Garund book, but I really think it needs more time to get set up.
Also, my guess earlier about Baranthet being our next iconic was originally just a wild guess, but the last couple lines from the latest post are making me really start to lean towards it more. I'd really love to see another less human looking iconic too since there's only two so far.
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Is Baranthet taking the forms of all these creatures, or speaking to all their spirits?
As a hypothetical Iconic, I mean.
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Is Baranthet taking the forms of all these creatures, or speaking to all their spirits?
As a hypothetical Iconic, I mean.
At first I was thinking he'd be a shifter, but framing it this way made me realize something
Maybe he's learning from Grandmother's stories how to commune with the Wardens of the Wild themselves, much like what each of these creatures are doing? Or in other words, him gaining the ability to channel magic from them as a shaman.
The fact it has been Sayre teasing it makes me pretty excited for a shaman playtest very soon. The only thing that feels off to me about a shaman/shifter purely primal focus is doing 2 primal focus books in a row? Although maybe a decision was made, especially with 2 new elements and it being a major point of departure for the D&D-inspired fantasy lore, to really run with filling in primal magic specifically as it’s own thing. Like Dark Archive covered as much as they needed for a while with occult magic, but maybe primal needs two books to cover the elemental side, and then the more natural world side.
Arcane magic is maybe in a place where they want to wait on it until Golarion’s other traditions are more fully integrated. It is a rough space for wizards, my favorite class, but is maybe justifiable since wizards have sat at the top of the pecking order in so much of previous editions that they just don’t feel like pushing arcane magic feels unique to their world right now.
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Is Baranthet taking the forms of all these creatures, or speaking to all their spirits?
As a hypothetical Iconic, I mean.
At first I was thinking he'd be a shifter, but framing it this way made me realize something
Maybe he's learning from Grandmother's stories how to commune with the Wardens of the Wild themselves, much like what each of these creatures are doing? Or in other words, him gaining the ability to channel magic from them as a shaman.
The Warden of Forests and Meadows inspires the little elephant to cleverly become more intimidating. The Warden of Caverns and burrows sparks a lovely snake song with the dance she performs. I think all of us can attest to how useful a bonus to Intimidation or Perform is when you really need it.
The Warden of Peaks and Skies grants a humble worm wings to fly with. The Warden of Oceans and Rivers has the much more direct gift of gratuitous violence against those who would harm the fish they watch over... but we're told that the lesson is how wild beasts "will defend their realms with tooth and claw, spark and venom and even magic." A Fly speed in PF2 is precious... but a boon of temporary flight might be something one could ask for; all of this stuff could work as Primal magic and/or animal forms.
Grandmother's stories may well be telling us about all the favors an aspiring Shaman can bargain with the Wardens for, which would be a lot of fun, and track with some of Michael Sayre's past 2e Shaman comments! Now, do I actually think this? I'm not so sure... but trying to imagine patterns is fun.
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The fact it has been Sayre teasing it makes me pretty excited for a shaman playtest very soon. The only thing that feels off to me about a shaman/shifter purely primal focus is doing 2 primal focus books in a row? Although maybe a decision was made, especially with 2 new elements and it being a major point of departure for the D&D-inspired fantasy lore, to really run with filling in primal magic specifically as it’s own thing. Like Dark Archive covered as much as they needed for a while with occult magic, but maybe primal needs two books to cover the elemental side, and then the more natural world side.
Arcane magic is maybe in a place where they want to wait on it until Golarion’s other traditions are more fully integrated. It is a rough space for wizards, my favorite class, but is maybe justifiable since wizards have sat at the top of the pecking order in so much of previous editions that they just don’t feel like pushing arcane magic feels unique to their world right now.
I don't think those two books being right next to each other is as big of a deal as people think honestly. From what I've heard from developer comments before, Paizo's not looking at the different traditions of magic and figuring out which one to add options for, they're trying to find places where they can add new content to the game to improve it. Rage of Elements just adds more elemental options, there's a lot of space for a nature themed book to work with, including areas outside of primal magic.
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I don't know. Folks love to pigeon hole the shaman into the primal realm but spirits seem more divine to me. YMMV.The fact it has been Sayre teasing it makes me pretty excited for a shaman playtest very soon. The only thing that feels off to me about a shaman/shifter purely primal focus is doing 2 primal focus books in a row? Although maybe a decision was made, especially with 2 new elements and it being a major point of departure for the D&D-inspired fantasy lore, to really run with filling in primal magic specifically as it’s own thing. Like Dark Archive covered as much as they needed for a while with occult magic, but maybe primal needs two books to cover the elemental side, and then the more natural world side.
Arcane magic is maybe in a place where they want to wait on it until Golarion’s other traditions are more fully integrated. It is a rough space for wizards, my favorite class, but is maybe justifiable since wizards have sat at the top of the pecking order in so much of previous editions that they just don’t feel like pushing arcane magic feels unique to their world right now.
More to the point, I think they seem that way to Sayre, based on his comments in other threads.
maybe primal needs two books to cover the elemental side, and then the more natural world side.
Another possibility to consider: they feel they are covering Arcane at least somewhat with Rage of Elements. Elemental magic is arcane too, after all.
Partly why I hoped that they’d do kineticists as arcane instead of primal, though I’ll concede the PF2 iteration is strongly primal, much more so than I felt the PF1 version was.
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I don't know. Folks love to pigeon hole the shaman into the primal realm but spirits seem more divine to me. YMMV.The fact it has been Sayre teasing it makes me pretty excited for a shaman playtest very soon. The only thing that feels off to me about a shaman/shifter purely primal focus is doing 2 primal focus books in a row? Although maybe a decision was made, especially with 2 new elements and it being a major point of departure for the D&D-inspired fantasy lore, to really run with filling in primal magic specifically as it’s own thing. Like Dark Archive covered as much as they needed for a while with occult magic, but maybe primal needs two books to cover the elemental side, and then the more natural world side.
Arcane magic is maybe in a place where they want to wait on it until Golarion’s other traditions are more fully integrated. It is a rough space for wizards, my favorite class, but is maybe justifiable since wizards have sat at the top of the pecking order in so much of previous editions that they just don’t feel like pushing arcane magic feels unique to their world right now.
Well there's already the Consult the Spirits feat which shows spirits can at the very least be from the divine, primal, and occult traditions, so I could see a shaman class falling under any of those or being able to choose which tradition to use. Plus, occult and divine casters can still be tied to natural forces, I don't think the possibility of the shaman appearing in a nature themed book inherently means it has to be a primal caster.
Is Baranthet taking the forms of all these creatures, or speaking to all their spirits?
As a hypothetical Iconic, I mean.
At first I was thinking he'd be a shifter, but framing it this way made me realize something
Maybe he's learning from Grandmother's stories how to commune with the Wardens of the Wild themselves, much like what each of these creatures are doing? Or in other words, him gaining the ability to channel magic from them as a shaman.
The Warden of Forests and Meadows inspires the little elephant to cleverly become more intimidating. The Warden of Caverns and burrows sparks a lovely snake song with the dance she performs. I think all of us can attest to how useful a bonus to Intimidation or Perform is when you really need it.
The Warden of Peaks and Skies grants a humble worm wings to fly with. The Warden of Oceans and Rivers has the much more direct gift of gratuitous violence against those who would harm the fish they watch over... but we're told that the lesson is how wild beasts "will defend their realms with tooth and claw, spark and venom and even magic." A Fly speed in PF2 is precious... but a boon of temporary flight might be something one could ask for; all of this stuff could work as Primal magic and/or animal forms.
Grandmother's stories may well be telling us about all the favors an aspiring Shaman can bargain with the Wardens for, which would be a lot of fun, and track with some of Michael Sayre's past 2e Shaman comments! Now, do I actually think this? I'm not so sure... but trying to imagine patterns is fun.
I hadn't seen it that way (I expected all the animal stuff to be more referencing a shifter's aspects), but bargaining with spirits such as these wardens of the wild actually makes a lot of sense as well. The Shifter iconic has also showed up in an illustration in Mwangi Expanse, so it's possible they wouldn't replace her. I'd still prefer to see Shifter over Shaman, but it'd make a lot of sense.
Shaman feels more Occult/Primal than Occult/Divine to me, personally.
Really the only vibe I don't get from shaman is arcane. Spirit is a strong part of divine and occult, and while it's not an actual part of primal magic, when whole class definitely have a primal vibe.
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I feel like it might be valuable to link to this thought exercise Sayre did a few months back about the minds of wheels he was spinning in regards to Shaman. This was *not* a serious proposal, but more just some thoughts he had at that moment.
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43o8y?What-do-you-want-from-a-2e-Shaman-class# 15
Not linking because mobile, so sorry about that.
Really I found the whole thread interesting, definitely including the parts where everyone in general and Sayre specifically disagreed with me personally, but that post seems pretty valuable to look at. I agree that the PF1 shaman had strong primal flavor, but what he was talking about seems to be a horse of a very different color.
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I'm increasingly sure we're getting a dragon bestiary, between recent forum chatter and remembering that Highhelm is neighbors with a number of infamous magma dragons.
Shaman feels more Occult/Primal than Occult/Divine to me, personally.
My read would be Primal/Divine. The Shaman is about Spiritual+Material essences (i.e. "the spirits that are in things") and Primal and Divine each have one of those two essences plus Life.
You could also combine spiritual+material through the link that Occult and Arcane share (mental) but that doesn't really make sense for the Shaman.
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The way I see it, haunts are Occult/Divine, nature spirits are Primal/maybe Elemental, and Weird Stuff is Occult.
I could see an argument for Arcane in the sense of "cataloguing all the spirits' names and the incantations for communing with them", too. Really, the shaman feels as close to the witch as to the druid--communicating with mysterious powers of dubious origin.
The way I see it, haunts are Occult/Divine, nature spirits are Primal/maybe Elemental, and Weird Stuff is Occult.
I could see an argument for Arcane in the sense of "cataloguing all the spirits' names and the incantations for communing with them", too. Really, the shaman feels as close to the witch as to the druid--communicating with mysterious powers of dubious origin.
That idea for Arcane makes me think of the Earthsea books, I'd love to have an option for magic that works like that.
Shaman feels more Occult/Primal than Occult/Divine to me, personally.My read would be Primal/Divine. The Shaman is about Spiritual+Material essences (i.e. "the spirits that are in things") and Primal and Divine each have one of those two essences plus Life.
You could also combine spiritual+material through the link that Occult and Arcane share (mental) but that doesn't really make sense for the Shaman.
I would agree with Primal/Divine. That lets you handle nature spirits, cosmic beings, and the (un)dead, all of which seem within a Shaman's wheelhouse... while Occult Aberrations fit a little less, IMO.
Oh, I definitely wasn't thinking aberrations. Occult is actually pretty broad! It concerns ancient mysteries, spirits and other "creatures of occult significance", and the Shadow/Ethereal Planes. Occultism specifically mentions spirits, in fact.
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The Shaman just seems fundamentally more concerned with "the spirit that motivates the sunflower to turn towards the sun" than "the spirit moving the planchette around on the spirit board."
Occultism, to me, seems more interested in spirits in the vein of "victorian occultism" than "traditional practices."
I'd personally lean towards shamans as a divine class, the primal spell list doesn't feel very fitting for the type of spells a shaman would use. Also, there's already precedent for divine spellcasters drawing power from primal beings with the Elemental Lords, and I think the way a shaman uses their magic is closer to that than how a druid does.
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I think that there has to be a materialistic part of "what the Shaman does" that isn't true of the cleric or another divine class.
Like you can't just read the holy text and wave your holy symbol around, you have to prepare the environs and provide so that the space is welcoming to the spirit you are inviting, and you treat with them with respect and gratitude more than worship. It's much more about "doing stuff" to attract, appease, or show gratitude towards the spirit who you are welcoming than the cleric. Like Legba is the first Lwa invited to the ritual, because he is the guardian of the crossroads and the facilitator of understanding and you need him to open the gate and make sense what lies beyond, but thankfully he is friendly and helpful and is known to enjoy tasty grilled food and the presence of well-loved dogs.
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"Spirits" in religion and folklore have always been tied deeply to material things--be they ghosts haunting their ancestral swords or little gods of rivers and bridges. I am all for making the shaman's rituals close to the thaumaturge's esoterica. Little offerings, manipulations of the space, preparing meals and drinks and gifts and mood-setting music.
I don't think anyone said it was.
I mean, the thing about the four magical traditions is that "life and mind" and "spirit and matter" are supposed to be opposed forces, so you can't really combine them. But just like the Magaambya are able to emphasize material essence while contrasting vital and mental essences by being both Arcane and Primal, the Shaman class could do something similar hinging on two traditions that share Spiritual essence (rather than Material essence like the Magaambya do.)
So the Divine spell list in PF2 is interesting because no class just gets the Divine list. The divine list always comes with hacks for adding additional other spells to it. That would be one way to have a spirity class that gets a little primal support without getting all the blasty spells that feel different that what Sayre was talking about in previous threads. The trick will be in making sure that doesn’t just end up feeling like a witch. On the one hand less spells would help with that, but if you are trading spell slots for other abilities through out the day, you need more than a wave caster’s worth, or probably a psychic’s.
If the class does have variable traditions, I sort of think it might be better to playtest still with only one and probably the weakest option. I think it would be easier to dial in the class if everyone is playtesting one tradition than for too much time being spent by players getting caught up in comparing the class with itself.
I'm increasingly sure we're getting a dragon bestiary, between recent forum chatter and remembering that Highhelm is neighbors with a number of infamous magma dragons.
A book of the dead type book that spun around Dragons would be very welcome, but I think that's 2025 at the earliest. Probably need some time to settle into the new draconic paradigms.
Plus it would Captain Rellyk at least 2 more years of asking questions; by then I'm sure you could get an entire table of contents just scrapping his posts for ideas (obvious sarcasm here, I enjoy his enthusiasm if not always his delivery).
I would be equally pleased by a book that centered either aberrations or spirits. Spirits in particular seem a little bare; almost all in the bestiaries are undead, and I'd like to see some expansion there.
I would be equally pleased by a book that centered either aberrations or spirits. Spirits in particular seem a little bare; almost all in the bestiaries are undead, and I'd like to see some expansion there.
I'd said before that I'd eat up a big book of aberrations. They're my single favorite enemy type, I love spooky and gross player options, and it's an excuse to see the neatest corner of Vudra? Sign me up!
Do you think there's a possibility they'll make such targeted bestiaries in the future, such as your proposed Dragon and Aberration ones? I'd love to see a "big book of dragons" to bring back all those dragon types we're currently missing from 1e as well as some new ones, or to cover the abominations hanging around in the Dark Tapestry, but Paizo have said they're not gonna make further bestiaries past 3 like they did with 1e.
Something I think as quite likely however is another book like "Book of the Dead", which was a mix of bestiary, rule options, and lore. I'd love to see the equivalent for Aberrations and Dragons.
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Do you think there's a possibility they'll make such targeted bestiaries in the future, such as your proposed Dragon and Aberration ones? I'd love to see a "big book of dragons" to bring back all those dragon types we're currently missing from 1e as well as some new ones, or to cover the abominations hanging around in the Dark Tapestry, but Paizo have said they're not gonna make further bestiaries past 3 like they did with 1e.
Something I think as quite likely however is another book like "Book of the Dead", which was a mix of bestiary, rule options, and lore. I'd love to see the equivalent for Aberrations and Dragons.
A book like Book of the Dead is what we mean when we say a themed bestiary.
I would be equally pleased by a book that centered either aberrations or spirits. Spirits in particular seem a little bare; almost all in the bestiaries are undead, and I'd like to see some expansion there.
Seconding this very hard. I would love to get a huge expansion on spirits, both undead and not.