On the one hand: an LO: Darklands book would mean a lot of work would have to be done to purge some major Darklands elements of OGL material. On the other hand: Paizo has already started to focus on their own material so less work might be needed than one might think. On the gripping hand: a lot of OGL scrubbing is underway right now, so they may well be done with that in time for mid-to-late 2024 Darklands book.
TL;DR: I suspect a Darklands book is coming, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that didn't happen.
I think in some ways the fact that they are purging OGL stuff makes a Darklands-related AP and/or Campaign setting guide all the more important, and more likely.
Second Darkness was the second AP, and I could see a "nostalgic" AP referencing elements of that.
I don't know if Second Darkness is well-liked enough to have much nostalgia behind it, but I'd be quite happy with this happening - and if it could somehow give us a trip to Kyonin (perhaps as a counterweight to our impending Highhelm jaunt), even better!
Plus, there's the note in 2e that the new Silver Ravens vanished into the Darklands chasing some unknown threat...
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It starts out being about drow reformers in the Darklands, but then in Book 3 they go to Riddleport and get kind of derailed.
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We're just under 10 hours from the panel. We'll know the announcements in 12 hours. My final thoughts? Between Highhelm and Rage of Elements, I am expecting a Darklands book. At the same time, Howl of the Wild is a book about nature, which (to me) means various biomes. That definitely supports the Darklands idea, and it also makes an aquatic book possible. That could be an undersea book, or it could be LO: the High Seas. We're getting Tian Xia next year, so a book about the oceans and ocean travel fits even though it will come afterwards.
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On the one hand: an LO: Darklands book would mean a lot of work would have to be done to purge some major Darklands elements of OGL material. On the other hand: Paizo has already started to focus on their own material so less work might be needed than one might think. On the gripping hand: a lot of OGL scrubbing is underway right now, so they may well be done with that in time for mid-to-late 2024 Darklands book.
TL;DR: I suspect a Darklands book is coming, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that didn't happen.
I think in some ways the fact that they are purging OGL stuff makes a Darklands-related AP and/or Campaign setting guide all the more important, and more likely.
Second Darkness was the second AP, and I could see a "nostalgic" AP referencing elements of that.
I don't know if Second Darkness is well-liked enough to have much nostalgia behind it, but I'd be quite happy with this happening - and if it could somehow give us a trip to Kyonin (perhaps as a counterweight to our impending Highhelm jaunt), even better!
Plus, there's the note in 2e that the new Silver Ravens vanished into the Darklands chasing some unknown threat...
It has a casino and moon doggos and dark elves.
That's all I remember.
But I like those parts.
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In Pathfinder AP #200, we will finally find the path!
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It starts out being about drow reformers in the Darklands, but then in Book 3 they go to Riddleport and get kind of derailed.
So, the opposite of Extinction Curse.
...FOURTH DARKNESS
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On the one hand: an LO: Darklands book would mean a lot of work would have to be done to purge some major Darklands elements of OGL material. On the other hand: Paizo has already started to focus on their own material so less work might be needed than one might think. On the gripping hand: a lot of OGL scrubbing is underway right now, so they may well be done with that in time for mid-to-late 2024 Darklands book.
TL;DR: I suspect a Darklands book is coming, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that didn't happen.
I think in some ways the fact that they are purging OGL stuff makes a Darklands-related AP and/or Campaign setting guide all the more important, and more likely.
Second Darkness was the second AP, and I could see a "nostalgic" AP referencing elements of that.
Second Darkness was the third AP. Curse of the Crimson Throne was the second.
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It starts out being about drow reformers in the Darklands, but then in Book 3 they go to Riddleport and get kind of derailed.So, the opposite of Extinction Curse.
...FOURTH DARKNESS
Fifth Darkness is just the entirety of Starfinder then
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Third Darkness: We swear it really is just about running a casino this time.
The AP is pitched as a deep exploration of the Darklands. You instead spend 5 volumes running a casino :P
Second Darkness was the third AP. Curse of the Crimson Throne was the second.On the one hand: an LO: Darklands book would mean a lot of work would have to be done to purge some major Darklands elements of OGL material. On the other hand: Paizo has already started to focus on their own material so less work might be needed than one might think. On the gripping hand: a lot of OGL scrubbing is underway right now, so they may well be done with that in time for mid-to-late 2024 Darklands book.
TL;DR: I suspect a Darklands book is coming, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that didn't happen.
I think in some ways the fact that they are purging OGL stuff makes a Darklands-related AP and/or Campaign setting guide all the more important, and more likely.
Second Darkness was the second AP, and I could see a "nostalgic" AP referencing elements of that.
Whoops...my apologies. I only got into following Pathfinder after they moved on from 3.5, so the order of those early APs sometimes gets mixed up in my brain.
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First Darkness, set directly before the fall of the Starstone. Our first historical AP. At the finale, rocks fall, everybody dies.
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All-investigator whodunnit AP opening when an actor playing Aroden is killed under mysterious circumstances.
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Putting into writing before it actually hits but my guess for 200+ is Runelords, Xandergul, Varisia, and probably some other callback to early APs. While another trip to the darklands is needed, I suspect they want to de-OGL a lot of what's there even before the OGL fiasco and I suspect that will happen after whatever 200+ is. I think it is also somewhat telling New Thassilon has barely been touched in nearly 5 years.
I'm also pretty sure the AP will take us back to Varisia. We're either getting involved with the Runelords again, or we're going to Korvosa.
All-investigator whodunnit AP opening when an actor playing Aroden is killed under mysterious circumstances.
Honestly an AP that actually lets players solve that mystery would be extremely interesting and cool. Pretty sure it's one of those things we're never going to know though.
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I do hate repeating the same things as everyone else, but I'm betting on the AP being something either Runelords or Darklands related. I'd prefer another Tian Xia AP personally though, it would feel a bit weird to me to leave it behind this quickly.
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"Who killed the actor who played Aroden?" is kind of a core setting question, yeah.
I do hate repeating the same things as everyone else, but I'm betting on the AP being something either Runelords or Darklands related. I'd prefer another Tian Xia AP personally though, it would feel a bit weird to me to leave it behind this quickly.
A Jade Regent sequel would count as "nostalgic", I think.
I do hate repeating the same things as everyone else, but I'm betting on the AP being something either Runelords or Darklands related. I'd prefer another Tian Xia AP personally though, it would feel a bit weird to me to leave it behind this quickly.A Jade Regent sequel would count as "nostalgic", I think.
I'm not sure there are early-Pathfinder APs that you can count on a large cross-section of the playerbase having read/played other than Runelords, Crimson Throne, and Kingmaker.
Like Carrion Crown was before Jade Regent, and we've been waiting a while to check in on old Tar-Baphon, so maybe that? But do people other than me remember Carrion Crown fondly?
Rusthenge sounds like it will touch on a couple of Varisian locales.
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Seven Dooms For Sandpoint was just announced at the end of the Keynote as AP #200. It’s a double-length volume, Aaron said it’s levels 4-9 but might be misremembering, and it stands alone, rather than being part of a longer AP.
The pitch… is that it’s an adaptation of the original Paizo office campaign! It sounds very cute and classic; the whole announcement had me grinning.
EDIT: Oh! Rusthenge is a 1-3 Adventure, so it perfectly leads you in and is nearby. I bet that’s intentional! PF2R having an onramp with Runelord stuff and dear old Sandpoint is a clever nod.
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Seven Dooms For Sandpoint was just announced at the end of the Keynote as AP #200. It’s a double-length volume, Aaron said it’s levels 4-9 but might be misremembering, and it stands alone, rather than being part of a longer AP.
The pitch… is that it’s an adaptation of the original Paizo office campaign! It sounds very cute and classic; the whole announcement had me grinning.
EDIT: Oh! Rusthenge is a 1-3 Adventure, so it perfectly leads you in and is nearby. I bet that’s intentional! PF2R having an onramp with Runelord stuff and dear old Sandpoint is a clever nod.
That's just plain AWESOME :-D
Seven Dooms For Sandpoint was just announced at the end of the Keynote as AP #200. It’s a double-length volume, Aaron said it’s levels 4-9 but might be misremembering, and it stands alone, rather than being part of a longer AP.
The pitch… is that it’s an adaptation of the original Paizo office campaign! It sounds very cute and classic; the whole announcement had me grinning.
EDIT: Oh! Rusthenge is a 1-3 Adventure, so it perfectly leads you in and is nearby. I bet that’s intentional! PF2R having an onramp with Runelord stuff and dear old Sandpoint is a clever nod.
Given that Sandpoint links to so many APs though... that makes sense. 4-9 is also what the live writeups on Reddit said, so I think you got that right.
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Given that Sandpoint links to so many APs though... that makes sense. 4-9 is also what the live writeups on Reddit said, so I think you got that right.Seven Dooms For Sandpoint was just announced at the end of the Keynote as AP #200. It’s a double-length volume, Aaron said it’s levels 4-9 but might be misremembering, and it stands alone, rather than being part of a longer AP.
The pitch… is that it’s an adaptation of the original Paizo office campaign! It sounds very cute and classic; the whole announcement had me grinning.
EDIT: Oh! Rusthenge is a 1-3 Adventure, so it perfectly leads you in and is nearby. I bet that’s intentional! PF2R having an onramp with Runelord stuff and dear old Sandpoint is a clever nod.
Aaron said that he may have been misremembering on the level range, to be clear.
It also sounds like 7 dooms will be a good move from the beginner's box.
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Seven Dooms for Sandpoint starts at 4th level, which was 100% a choice to make it work well as a move from the Beginner's Box, but also as a move from Rusthenge. There's even a stealth plot link between Rusthenge and Seven Dooms for Sandpoint if the GM wants to do that!
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Given that Sandpoint links to so many APs though... that makes sense. 4-9 is also what the live writeups on Reddit said, so I think you got that right.Seven Dooms For Sandpoint was just announced at the end of the Keynote as AP #200. It’s a double-length volume, Aaron said it’s levels 4-9 but might be misremembering, and it stands alone, rather than being part of a longer AP.
The pitch… is that it’s an adaptation of the original Paizo office campaign! It sounds very cute and classic; the whole announcement had me grinning.
EDIT: Oh! Rusthenge is a 1-3 Adventure, so it perfectly leads you in and is nearby. I bet that’s intentional! PF2R having an onramp with Runelord stuff and dear old Sandpoint is a clever nod.
Seven Dooms for Sandpoint is a 4–11 adventure, with potential for some 12 play at the end.
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Seven Dooms for Sandpoint is an adaptation of the original Paizo office campaign—the campaign played at Paizo before Pathfinder first edition was even released, what Paizo staff used to playtest Pathfinder, and most importantly the adventuring home of Ostog the Unslain!
Oh my gosh, is this from that campaign journal I feel like y'all used to update in the other subforum? Or did I dream that??
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Seven Dooms for Sandpoint is an adaptation of the original Paizo office campaign—the campaign played at Paizo before Pathfinder first edition was even released, what Paizo staff used to playtest Pathfinder, and most importantly the adventuring home of Ostog the Unslain!Oh my gosh, is this from that campaign journal I feel like y'all used to update in the other subforum? Or did I dream that??
It is! If you dreamed about it I'll take that as a RAD compliment! :)
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It's also built up from a lot of the plot points in the 1E Sandpoint softcover book, so players who've read that will have pre-adventure spoilers. That said, there's plenty of new stuff as well! This adventure at one point was going to be the 2nd 2/3 of a proposed 320 page Sandpoint hardcover that was at one point in the making, but got shrunk down to just Sandpoint with no adventure in that softcover.
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I'm so glad we always come back to Sandpoint in the end. I'm running an Age of Worms game in Golarion right now, and writing Diamond Lake as Sandpoint's "sister town" is just a wonderful contrast between "the nicest town you could ever live in" and "the cult-infested company-town-with-twenty-different-warring-mine-companies".
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A couple useful tidbits from the event Discord for all of us prediction-makers:
-James Jacobs is very interested in Numeria and doing a “semi-sequel to Iron Gods,” but it’s not happening this year or next.
-Erik Mona says something with “big picture overviews of the current political scene” in the Inner Sea is being announced at Gen Con.
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A couple useful tidbits from the event Discord for all of us prediction-makers:
-James Jacobs is very interested in Numeria and doing a “semi-sequel to Iron Gods,” but it’s not happening this year or next.
-Erik Mona says something with “big picture overviews of the current political scene” in the Inner Sea is being announced at Gen Con.
Please give us the Spy/Inquisitor. Please.
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Please give us the Spy/Inquisitor. Please.A couple useful tidbits from the event Discord for all of us prediction-makers:
-James Jacobs is very interested in Numeria and doing a “semi-sequel to Iron Gods,” but it’s not happening this year or next.
-Erik Mona says something with “big picture overviews of the current political scene” in the Inner Sea is being announced at Gen Con.
Potentially related, though I don't dare read too much into this:
Doctrines have to scale a variety of proficiencies (Fortitude, spellcasting, weapons, etc.) so they're not really expandable the way some people think they are. They're really just a toggle between "white mage" and "classic TTRPG fighting cleric". Something like e.g. the inquisitor couldn't really be done satisfactorily in that space without creating an issue somewhere. Much more likely to see e.g. a cleric class archetype that overwrites the doctrine space completely and swaps some other things out alongside adding a bunch of archetype-specific feats to achieve a new idea or theme.
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From the office of expectation management, an Iron Gods semi-sequel is maybe not happening ever. It's something I've wanted to do for YEARS (even predating 2nd edition), though, and have a pretty robust plot worked out that could go either direction (from a large standalone adventure to a full Adventure Path of however many installments).
Please give us the Spy/Inquisitor. Please.A couple useful tidbits from the event Discord for all of us prediction-makers:
-James Jacobs is very interested in Numeria and doing a “semi-sequel to Iron Gods,” but it’s not happening this year or next.
-Erik Mona says something with “big picture overviews of the current political scene” in the Inner Sea is being announced at Gen Con.
Potentially related, though I don't dare read too much into this:
Doctrines have to scale a variety of proficiencies (Fortitude, spellcasting, weapons, etc.) so they're not really expandable the way some people think they are. They're really just a toggle between "white mage" and "classic TTRPG fighting cleric". Something like e.g. the inquisitor couldn't really be done satisfactorily in that space without creating an issue somewhere. Much more likely to see e.g. a cleric class archetype that overwrites the doctrine space completely and swaps some other things out alongside adding a bunch of archetype-specific feats to achieve a new idea or theme.
Probably a common question he fields, given it was very similar to a response he made in this thread.
Clerics have 43 level 1 focus spells spread across over 200 deities. Second place is Sorcerer with 15.Very much this. Deities are the main subclass for clerics; all doctrines do is toggle where you place yourself on the battlefield, with cloistered being the back to mid-line option and warpriest being the mid to front-line option.
Doctrines don't actually have the mechanical weight to do something like offer a previously unsupported character archetype; it's the deity that sets your font, spells, favored weapon, extra skill, etc.
If you were going to build something like an inquisitor using the cleric chassis, you'd likely need to do it as a class archetype so you have enough room to support the concept by trading out more and different things than a doctrine is set up to affect.
Of course, that could mean there's something around behind the curtain. Could also just mean he put some thought into how he'd solve this particular problem. Guess we'll find out.
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I think Michael Sayre is the project lead on some really cool, really secret rules book that is going to be announced maybe later this weekend.
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With how much is changing about the lore of the world, it is hard to imagine that we are not going to need a "Secrets of Magic: Revisited" book in the near-ish future. A lot of the ideas there feel more like prototype ideas for where the world of Golarion was heading rather than like fully fleshed out ideas for the role of magic in the setting of remastered PF2. At least, it feels that way to me, what do you think?
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Stitching together a few comments from James Jacobs that I found interesting; there's not much point speculating on these with the panel coming so soon, but I know a lot of folks here aren't on the Discord.
The tricky thing now, of course, is SO much of the Darklands is entangled with the OGL, and going forward... we can't and don't want to use those elements. So ... rebuilding the Darklands into a Paizo thing instead of a D&D theme park, but at the same time keeping as much of the Darklands as we can, is a really really tricky thing. That's a part of what I'll be talking about in the Into the Darklands seminar at noon PDT on Sunday, so for now... I'll hold off on saying more. I 100% expect to have a LOT of questions about the Darklands and their future coming my way after that panel though.
Drow are at the heart of it, to be honest.
Drow are VERY D&D, no matter what we do with them. They're popular because of D&D. But there's also some really fraught "black elves are evil" stuff that, even as we've tried to distance ourselves from it for the past several years... just doesn't seem to go away. There's SO much more potential for stories in the Darklands.
It's not going to be very popular, I fear, with some folks, what I'll have to reveal, but hopefully we/I have earned enough trust from Golarion and Pathfinder fans to see where we're going. Tune in at noon on Sunday to find out more, I guess. That's the panel I'm the most nervous about, no contest, not just for this Paizocon but in recent memory.
It sounds like we're potential in for some more post-OGL shocks when it comes to the Darklands, which I honestly welcome at this point. Super curious to see where this goes!
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Stitching together a few comments from James Jacobs that I found interesting; there's not much point speculating on these with the panel coming so soon, but I know a lot of folks here aren't on the Discord.
It sounds like we're potential in for some more post-OGL shocks when it comes to the Darklands, which I honestly welcome at this point. Super curious to see where this goes!The tricky thing now, of course, is SO much of the Darklands is entangled with the OGL, and going forward... we can't and don't want to use those elements. So ... rebuilding the Darklands into a Paizo thing instead of a D&D theme park, but at the same time keeping as much of the Darklands as we can, is a really really tricky thing. That's a part of what I'll be talking about in the Into the Darklands seminar at noon PDT on Sunday, so for now... I'll hold off on saying more. I 100% expect to have a LOT of questions about the Darklands and their future coming my way after that panel though.
Drow are at the heart of it, to be honest.
Drow are VERY D&D, no matter what we do with them. They're popular because of D&D. But there's also some really fraught "black elves are evil" stuff that, even as we've tried to distance ourselves from it for the past several years... just doesn't seem to go away. There's SO much more potential for stories in the Darklands.
It's not going to be very popular, I fear, with some folks, what I'll have to reveal, but hopefully we/I have earned enough trust from Golarion and Pathfinder fans to see where we're going. Tune in at noon on Sunday to find out more, I guess. That's the panel I'm the most nervous about, no contest, not just for this Paizocon but in recent memory.
Hmmm, I'll admit I'm a bit concerned with the above. Makes me think something big is getting removed. I understand OGL stuff is problematic, but I'm quite attached to the Pathfinder lore as it currently is. I'm probably in the minority here, but even stuff like removing the law/chaos angle from the upcoming sanctify mechanic saddens me. Though admittedly I'm also in the minority of not really caring at all for Drow, and that post seems pretty Drow-focused. I suppose as long as the more Paizo angled things in the Darklands (Vaults of Orv, Sekmin, Rovagug stuff) remains, I'll be more ok with whatever dissection happens to the Drow.
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Stitching together a few comments from James Jacobs that I found interesting; there's not much point speculating on these with the panel coming so soon, but I know a lot of folks here aren't on the Discord.
It sounds like we're potential in for some more post-OGL shocks when it comes to the Darklands, which I honestly welcome at this point. Super curious to see where this goes!The tricky thing now, of course, is SO much of the Darklands is entangled with the OGL, and going forward... we can't and don't want to use those elements. So ... rebuilding the Darklands into a Paizo thing instead of a D&D theme park, but at the same time keeping as much of the Darklands as we can, is a really really tricky thing. That's a part of what I'll be talking about in the Into the Darklands seminar at noon PDT on Sunday, so for now... I'll hold off on saying more. I 100% expect to have a LOT of questions about the Darklands and their future coming my way after that panel though.
Drow are at the heart of it, to be honest.
Drow are VERY D&D, no matter what we do with them. They're popular because of D&D. But there's also some really fraught "black elves are evil" stuff that, even as we've tried to distance ourselves from it for the past several years... just doesn't seem to go away. There's SO much more potential for stories in the Darklands.
It's not going to be very popular, I fear, with some folks, what I'll have to reveal, but hopefully we/I have earned enough trust from Golarion and Pathfinder fans to see where we're going. Tune in at noon on Sunday to find out more, I guess. That's the panel I'm the most nervous about, no contest, not just for this Paizocon but in recent memory.
Hah...it's never too late to speculate!
This really does sound like there might be an event in the near future that just simply smashes Drow civilization apart, possibly an invasion and conquest by a new/already present Darklands Abberation species. Drow refugees having had their power broken and having to survive on the surface world would be an interesting place to take them.
Stitching together a few comments from James Jacobs that I found interesting; there's not much point speculating on these with the panel coming so soon, but I know a lot of folks here aren't on the Discord.
It sounds like we're potential in for some more post-OGL shocks when it comes to the Darklands, which I honestly welcome at this point. Super curious to see where this goes!The tricky thing now, of course, is SO much of the Darklands is entangled with the OGL, and going forward... we can't and don't want to use those elements. So ... rebuilding the Darklands into a Paizo thing instead of a D&D theme park, but at the same time keeping as much of the Darklands as we can, is a really really tricky thing. That's a part of what I'll be talking about in the Into the Darklands seminar at noon PDT on Sunday, so for now... I'll hold off on saying more. I 100% expect to have a LOT of questions about the Darklands and their future coming my way after that panel though.
Drow are at the heart of it, to be honest.
Drow are VERY D&D, no matter what we do with them. They're popular because of D&D. But there's also some really fraught "black elves are evil" stuff that, even as we've tried to distance ourselves from it for the past several years... just doesn't seem to go away. There's SO much more potential for stories in the Darklands.
It's not going to be very popular, I fear, with some folks, what I'll have to reveal, but hopefully we/I have earned enough trust from Golarion and Pathfinder fans to see where we're going. Tune in at noon on Sunday to find out more, I guess. That's the panel I'm the most nervous about, no contest, not just for this Paizocon but in recent memory.
I'm one of those who've vocally shouted out how much I'd love to see playable Drow/Duergar/Svirfneblin in PF2E. If this is what I think this is, and JJ is implying they are going away in this new lore, I'll be pretty crushed.
BUT! As long as there are other cool, Pathfinder-original creative options to take their place? I think I'll be able to quickly recover.
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My crackpot theory is that dark elves are just going to become "elves who happen to live underground", with no meaningful biological differences. Sometimes elves are just lilac-colored. it's not a big deal.
My crackpot theory is that dark elves are just going to become "elves who happen to live underground", with no meaningful biological differences. Sometimes elves are just lilac-colored. it's not a big deal.
Kind of sounds like its a more major shift to that...but I guess we will find out later today?
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Kind of sounds like its a more major shift to that...but I guess we will find out later today?My crackpot theory is that dark elves are just going to become "elves who happen to live underground", with no meaningful biological differences. Sometimes elves are just lilac-colored. it's not a big deal.
Tomorrow (Sunday)