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Are you responding to me or something else? I’m not sure how anything you said has anything to do with what I’m saying. Sorry if I’m not communicating clearly.


25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:
if ancestor magic require soul of actual ancient to be trapped in material world

That’s not what I’m suggesting. My proposition was that the souls get judged as normal, but their judgement involves them going to some communal area (a “room” in the Spire, a demiplane in the Astral/Ethereal, a shared dreamscape in the Dimension of Dreams, or something along those lines) where they do not become outsiders or petitioners, but rather keep their original soul and memories, with the restriction that they aren’t able to act outside of that area unless called upon by a shaman.


25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:


wouldn't most soul reincarnate and ancestor magic run on the memory left behind be a more elegant lore about soul

My personal preference would still be that ancestor worship involve the actual souls, rather than just the Akashic copy/Astral memory of a soul. Worshipping (and more importantly getting power from) a memory just doesn’t seem as satisfying to me. Preferences vary of course though, so I am curious to see how they handle it.


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I’d absolutely love for shaman lore to include info on how ancestral spirits/worship work, and preferably in a way that doesn’t depend on deities.

My current headcanon until actual lore comes out is that the shared practices/beliefs of a group allow a room to be created in the Spire that judged souls from that group can enter in, retaining their memories and forms, but preventing them from leaving unless specifically called by a shaman (as opposed to normal outsiders, who usually lose their memories but can more or less act freely as they are able).


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D&D specific stats (also from 2020)


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Statistics from 2020


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I believe this was a starting premise for Curse of the Crimson Throne.


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Pathfinder Core Rulebook Clarifications (4th Printing) wrote:
Don’t worry about doing all the math of average damage, just follow your heart to which seems most severe.

I will Paizo, I will follow my heart.


I might suggest Erecura. Hell adjacent while still not being Asmodean. Is all about surviving dangerous people/places, and helping or at least allowing others to do the same. LN, but tends towards good rather than evil (allows LG followers, doesn’t allow LE).


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It makes sense to me to tie this into aps and make pertinent items/relics/artifacts alongside the adventure release.


pixierose wrote:
an adventure path where the pc's are bumbling actors doing a play about legendary heroes who get mistaken for actual heroes by a small village and through a miscommunication think they will be putting on a show at the village. The actors must rise up to fight the villians and truly become heroes.

Haha “A Bug’s Life”, the ap.


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keftiu wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
My two current obsessions have been theorizing what happened to the Hellknight Order of the Vise and what happened to the Forsaken (the shadow plane demigod pantheon).
I’d welcome either theory, but especially that latter one! The Forsaken seem so cool.

Shadows at Sundown revealed that Zon-Kuthon destroyed the big strigoi nation in the shadow plane. My current headcanon is that after he was released from his prison, he went on a big conquest of the shadow plane to remove anybody that could significantly threaten him, which included the strigoi and the forsaken.


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My two current obsessions have been theorizing what happened to the Hellknight Order of the Vise and what happened to the Forsaken (the shadow plane demigod pantheon).


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Thanks so much, that's what I was looking for!


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In the original, Savram was Sharvaros' human son, and now Savram is Sharvaros' dhampir daughter. Is this a retcon, and if so, how does it interact with Sharvaros' backstory (specifically involving Amele, who is presumably Savram's mother)?

EDIT: To clarify, I'm trying to determine if Amele is actually Savram's mother, and if so, whether she's a vampire or not.


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I personally would love this.


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Similar to Morhek, my headcanon had always been that it was dwarven influence and the geography/climate more than anything else that led to the cultural aesthetic they have.


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There's always Draghignazzo who is both devil and dragon.


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I don’t think that’s the case for several reasons, but the most relevant of which is that no other shadow plane inhabitants are noted as being particularly predisposed towards self-mutilation. It seems to be a uniquely velatrac thing.


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Also IIRC Wood is growth while Metal is decay. So positive and negative damage could be a thing for these.
I personally dislike this idea, but it could be done. I'd rather these ideas be represented by what kinds of invocations each element gets, like wood going heavy on healing and creation, while metal going heavier on destruction.

I'm the opposite. Obviously we still haven't seen the lore yet, but I think it'd be cool if metal and wood were the elemental representations of negative/positive energy.


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Two random things I noticed (have not thoroughly perused it yet). Ravounel doesn't have borders, so it looks like it's still part of Cheliax. And the capital city symbol for Cheliax is on Westcrown instead of Egorian.


It has come to my attention that (aside from Summon Lesser Servitor) there's no summoning spell for psychopomps (or any other true neutral monitor/outsider that may exist).

This post is intended to double check that I am correct and am not overlooking something, and if so to draw attention to the deficit so that it might be added.


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Night hags have ac 28, 170 hp, +20 attack, and do 2d8+8 or 2d10+8 damage.

I'm assuming you were also level 9 (since you said that next level was 10), so you should have around ac 26, 120-140 hp, +18 attack, and do ~2d8+6. (I don't know your exact build, but those numbers should be close at least)

The hags average damage would be 16/18 per hit (32/36 on a crit), and you said that she took you down in two rounds. She would have had to land all 6 attacks (or just roll EXCEPTIONALLY high damage/get a few crits) in order to do that, which would also mean she wasn't moving anywhere or attacking anyone else.

It sounds to me like you just got really unlucky. A night hags melee is slightly better than yours, but that's offset by the cold-iron weakness (though admittedly that's useless if you don't have any cold-iron). If you were flanking and hasted and still got wrecked that badly, then luck is pretty much the only thing you can realistically put that down to.

On the other hand, you took up 6 entire actions of an on-level enemy, allowing the other 4 party members to use their ~12 actions in relative safety. That seems both acceptably tactical and heroic to me.

All that being said, I'm contractually obliged to point out that there's no reason to end a turn near an enemy when you're hasted. I know you felt like it was an acceptable risk, but it's just not unless you're an AC focused champion/monk or an hp focused barb.


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I don't typically play religious characters, but I do have a few deities that I like.

If I had to pick a number one favorite, it'd probably be Kazutal, though very closely followed by Tsukiyo.

I also like pretty much any deity that has an edict/anathema of help/do not harm children. So deities such as Andoletta, Chamidu, and Mother Vulture definitely get a thumbs up from me.

Nalinivati and The Lost Prince are my favorite neutral deities.

I intentionally avoid evil deities regardless of how much I may or may not like them, but I do have a certain appreciation for Moloch, as he is noted as being one of the few deities to reliably answer prayers in an active way. I was really hoping he'd be like Dispater in being an archdevil who allows LN followers.


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Travelling Sasha wrote:
The Measure not being defined itself gives writers room to pull whatever from whenever — which is both good and bad, I guess. Maybe there's a hidden line somewhere about excessive cruelty or whatever.

I'm not so much worried about what the Measure actually says, as I am how it's prioritized. Like when Queen Domina invited the Hellknights to Korvosa, it seems like they don't actually uphold Korvosan law, but instead hold up the Measure and Chain. Which I don't mind at all, and actually like, but it leads into several problems that to the best of my knowledge haven't been addressed in text before.

How are criminals prosecuted? Is it possible to be charged for the same crime by both the state and the Hellknights? Can you appeal to the state/Hellknights if you've done something that breaks the law for one but not the other? How does sentencing work if the different laws/judges have the same crimes but not the same punishments?

This seems like it'd be a significant issue specifically in Cheliax. While I recognize that the Measure is based on a combination of Chelish, Taldan, and Hellish law, that still leaves a LOT of chances for significant differences to come up. How are those differences resolved?

I'm just very curious how having an extra-governmental agency that polices an entirely different law set works in practice, and how that differs between orders and countries.


As far as Hellknights go, what I most want to see is a clear definition of what laws they actually enforce. They have the whole Measure and Chain thing, but they also seem to enforce the laws of whoever hires them, but they can also be hired by non-governmental officials. It's just really hard for me to see them as lawful when the underlying structures that should inform their decision making process are so unclear/undefined.

Another thing that I would enjoy, but should probably be handled via story rather than background is unifying the Hellknights more. Right now the Orders are more like begrudging rival allies rather than a cohesive unit, which is another thing that makes it hard to see them as lawful. Ideally the Scourge would head this (possibly as a way to help survive/combat Abrogail), but I wouldn't even really mind if it was a different Order, so long as they all were unified.


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Oh man Uluk is super cool. I like that one a lot.


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This is now reminding me of Dave the Commoner.


For similar reasons as keftiu, I am really only interested in the Ethereal and Shadow planes, as they directly overlap the Material. I super love the trope of parallel but invisible worlds. So for me the thing I'd want most is more info on overlapping locations (e.g. Absalom and Shadow Absalom).


keftiu wrote:
I think it's silly that the notion of Sarkorian descendants living in Mendev never seems to have come up, with its pre-Worldwound past instead being vaguely Iobarian. You could get some interesting character tension there - what does it mean to be of Sarkorian heritage, when the Worldwound opened over a century ago and your family's been Iomedean for three generations? 2e has gestured some at Mendevian folks adopting Sarkorian traditions, but that bleed over happens both ways.

I do recall that Sarkorians and god callers play a role in several pfs scenarios. Not a ton, but still notable.


CorvusMask wrote:
Assuming that is real post, that is cool small arg :D

It's real. It also specifically requests that unlike the others, people solve it individually. It's not super hard though, particularly if you've been keeping up with the rest of it. The first person figured it out literally less than 10 minutes after I posted it to the discord.

This was fun, I hope they do more thematic little things like this in the future.


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And KHW posted in the Dark Archive thread.


My guess is an Oolioddroo.


There are a lot of in-world myths of creation of course, but we know for a fact that the gods created the material plane, as that’s non-narrative description. Which gods did it is unknown, but largely irrelevant.


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Temperans wrote:

Yeah no, that isn't how the major planes work. The gods aren't CEOs most aren't even managers, the closest thing to those ranks are: Pharasma which has to make sure the boneyard run smoothly and no one is skirting death (pesky liches) and Asmodeus who has a lose grasp over hell.

Only those two are really the "final decision makers" of their major plane, and they are that because of their...

The non-theistic religions don’t take part in the cycle of souls (or at least on any significant scale) and don’t have a ton of power (at least in comparison to the gods). The gods created the universe, it is “their world” both literally and figuratively.

On a macro level, that pretty objectively makes them more important. We have a few examples of non-theistic religions being more important on a micro/personal level, which is nice, but it’d be really cool to see a non-theistic religion gain importance on the same scale as a theistic one. The closest we have now I think is the Green Faith, which is still pretty limited in scope.


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Temperans wrote:

I think you might be misunderstanding something. The universe of the Golarion setting is not a "world of the gods" any more than it is a "world of spirits" or a "world of mortals" or whatever someone might think off. Most of the gods are off in their corner of the universe doing their own things just as much as the mortal are in theirs doing the same thing. If you are calling the various elemental, alignment, and other miscellaneous planes "divine realms" you are using the wrong term.

The various planes are not "divine realms". Divine realms are effectively demiplanes and sections of other planes that specific gods either created or took for themselves. They are hardly relevant to most people or purposes.

As for the "theistic religions dominate the narrative", you literally listed a bunch of religions that are not "theistic" all of which have a decently large part of the game. Which btw God Callers are theistic they just worship eidolons...

I mean, the gods canonically created the material plane, and the overwhelming majority of souls that die go to their realms (or planes, if you prefer), and they are infinitely more powerful than anything that the non-theistic faiths worship. That's like saying that a large company is not the world of the CEO. Sure, the majority of people aren't ever going to interact with the CEO, and there are (hopefully) rules limiting what exactly the CEO can do, but the CEO is still more or less going to be the one who is the final decision maker and generally one of the most if not the most important people in the company.


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I think that’d be an awesome premise. Additionally, I can see them slowly having to develop a number of countermeasures for dealing with the outer gods/great old ones/demons/qlippoth, as the runelords were known to heavily associate with them and almost certainly left behind a number of artifacts of theirs.

Though at that point I guess they’re just a remake of the Vise. Hmm


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keftiu wrote:
Do we have a firm definition of what counts as a Spirit in 2e? AoN's definition of the Spirit Trait only really says it means they usually lack a physical form, and most creatures with it are incorporeal undead.

It’s much firmer than it was in 1e, now that they’ve introduced the 4 essences. Spirits are entities that are entirely (or at least predominantly) made up of spirit essence (as opposed to being a more balanced combo of spirit and matter essence).


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keftiu wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
snip

We’ve had a few sources gesture at Amurrun beliefs surrounding vague “spirits,” and I’d love a fuller look at what exactly that means and looks like to them. I was bummed the Mwangi book didn’t say more on them.

What’s up with the Nidalese, Orvian, Palatine, and Mana Waste Shamans? Those are unexpected pulls.

Thanks for compiling this list!

Nidalese shamans have very little info “Shamans in the shadowy kingdom of Nidal learn to speak with the spirits that live in shadow.”

The Orvian shamans are called crystal tenders. “The crystal tenders of Orv meditate within the Crystal Womb, often near the churning vortex that makes up the heart of the Vault. They learn to focus the cavern’s energies through ley lines in the stone, and they study the birth of crystals within the Womb in order to mimic the process.”

The Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye shamans are called True Silvered Thrones. “ Members in good standing who have risen to a prestigious rank within the Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye, true silvered thrones have managed to discover rituals and occult secrets within the lore of their order. They are scholars of ancient mysteries and keepers of forbidden secrets who go beyond simply learning eldritch traditions to make the occult a part of their very souls.”

Notable for being heavily occult leaning and having a grimoire instead of a spirit animal.

Mana Waste shamans are called Primal Wardens. “The influence of primal magic extends beyond what is visible and material. Spirits that linger in areas where primal magic reigns can become warped, losing touch with their former selves and experiencing random surges of power. A shaman who communes with such spirits learns to stabilize these erratic energies and draw upon them to her benefit. Such shamans gradually learn to guide their spirits toward coherence and lucidity, and in the process learn to bend chance and fortune in their favor.”


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From 1e Advanced Class Guide and Origins, we know the following places/people are noted for their shamans:

  • Crown of the World, Erutaki sky readers
  • Five Kings Mountains, rivethun dwarves
  • Icemark, Varki
  • Mwangi, Zenj, Iruxi
  • Nidal, shadowcasters
  • Realm of the Mammoth Lords, Kellids
  • Varisia, Shoanti

    Additionally, by perusing the archetypes for shaman, we see that the following have noteworthy types of shaman:

  • The Vault of Orv
  • Devotees of the Green Mother
  • Pathfinders
  • Lands of the Linnorm Kings
  • The Mana Waste
  • Murraseth Ammaruns
  • Esoteric Order of the Palatine Eye

    I think that gives a pretty diverse place to start from.


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    I definitely enjoyed the cybernetics. I wish they would add projectile firearms in addition to the elemental guns. Still future tech, probably some sort of helical rail gun or something.


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    Ed Reppert wrote:
    Leon Aquilla wrote:

    The sea routes hug the coast a lot more tightly, which makes sense if you don't have a compass.

    Three essential tools for open ocean navigation (at least until you get GPS): chronometer, sextant, compass. Of these the compass is least important. Knowing which way you’re going won’t help much if you don’t know where you are. Astrolabe was an early substitute for the sextant. Not sure where Golarion’s tech is on these things.

    Golarion has astrolabes, sextants, and a variety of time keeping devices.


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    Perpdepog wrote:
    SOLDIER-1st wrote:
    While several of the orders are explicitly biased towards Cheliax societal norms and/or have the approval of the Cheliax government (the Rack, as has been noted, being prominently so), only the Glyph is specifically pro Thrune, and they’re a secret order the others don’t know about.

    They're secret because they aren't actually an order, at least not in the way the Hellknights proper would see it. They're closer to the Order of the Crux--a mercenary company, or in this case black operations bureaucratic body--than they are followers of The Measure and the Chain.

    I might be misremembering but I think the Order of the Coil falls into that camp as well.

    Yes, I agree.


    Ly'ualdre wrote:

    Betobeto-san are created when travelers pass through the Shadow and Material Plane, thereby being created of the same metaphysical material the Shadow Plane is made from.

    Skull Fairies arise as a result of those who die from expose to the energies of the Shadow Plane. This suggests that, most of the time, their inception is likely going to be on the Plane itself. But, for those that maybe die elsewhere, possibly near a Planar Rift, the energies of the Shadow Plane still factor into their creation.

    Alapolo's are admittedly the odd one out here, since nothing expressly states that orongate or are tied to the Shadow Plane. They are, however, described as "Fey creatures with a supernatural tie to shadows", which is still a lot more than what Shadows themselves have. But given the fact they have the Shadow Trait, it can be infered they somehow have ties to the Plane.

    The other two make reference to the Shadow Plane in their sidebars.

    EDIT: Shadows are named for the fact that they look and act like an actual Shadow. According to Undead Revisited, stating "Shadows are incorporeal undead, distorted like their namesakes". Says to me they were named for their similarities, not because they are actual shadows.

    All that is true, but is still deeply unsatisfying to me. However, your mention of Undead Revisited triggered a memory, and upon checking it turns out there are variant shadows that are specifically from or connected to the shadow plane, so that assuages me somewhat.


    It’d have to have some sort of big event to start it off. Hellknights are notoriously factious, but the only order I could realistically see actively tying themselves to Thrune like that is the Rack. Possibly the Pyre, but even then making enemies out of 5 of the 7 major orders doesn’t seem like something Abrogail would do, particularly when she knows that the most powerful (or at least influential) one is right in her capital and has been actively preparing to deal with her doing that exact thing.


    While several of the orders are explicitly biased towards Cheliax societal norms and/or have the approval of the Cheliax government (the Rack, as has been noted, being prominently so), only the Glyph is specifically pro Thrune, and they’re a secret order the others don’t know about.


    Ly'ualdre wrote:

    The Shadow Trait is applied to those creatures who are themselves native to the Plane itself.

    Shadows don't originate from the Shadow Plane, they are simply shadow-like Undead creatures. They can exist within then Plane, thanks to their Undead nature and the Planes proxim to the Nagative Energy Plane; which can result in Greater Shadows.

    At least three of the creatures with the shadow trait are non-natives of the plane (the ones I’ve noted are Alapolos, Betobeto-sans, and Skull fairies).


    1-20 might be too much. The leaders of the major orders are all between levels 10-16, with 3 out of the 7 being 10.


    keftiu wrote:

    Very neat tidbit from the Travel Guide: rumor has it that Mengkare no longer rules Hermea! No further details on what's going on instead.

    It seems like they've gone ahead with what Luis hinted at in a Reddit thread a while back, and are experimenting with 2e APs being canon within the edition as they release, rather than the 1e approach.

    Is there any indicator that that’s the result of an adventure, or are we going to have to be very cognizant of publish dates going forward?


    Ravingdork wrote:

    There is no shadow trait for monsters, only for planes.

    That being said, the planar shadow trait does have verbiage indicating monsters can have it too, and that such mention means they are native to that plane.

    So I'm guessing the developers either forgot, or the monster's in question are not from the shadow plane.

    Yeah, as breithauptclan said, there's a bunch of monsters with the shadow trait.

    The only reason I question that it might not be a mistake is only one description of the shadow plane has ever actually included shadows as notable inhabitants, and even then only in passing. Which is weird to me, and makes me think there must be something I'm missing.

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