So it seems like Kelldor knew about Tar-Baphon returning (he ordered the Mercenary League to double recruitment and train specifically for undead and orcs). It makes sense, as he's noted as being a powerful diviner (I seem to recall that he's a level 15 oracle). The only problem with this is that he started this operation two years before Tyrant's Grasp.
Any theories on how he got this information two whole years in advance?
(Of course there's always the option that I'm just looking too hard into things)
Honestly, if you're okay with events that result in our poor Earthling ending up on Golarion occurring before the start of the AP, any of them. I highly recommend checking out these two CampaignJournals.
The backstory of Kyle O'Halloran in particular should be of use.
So long as you can contrive a reason the character ended up on Golarion, and the GM is willing to work with you, it could work with any AP.
Carrion Crown would be the hardest, since everyone is supposed to have known Professor Lorrimer, and it might be difficult to explain how you can be from another planet and his friend.
I have read both of those, great stuff. I'm mostly looking for an easy way to do it with events already in the story though, largely to prevent me from having to burden a GM with an excessive amount of extra work (and thus making it less likely to be accepted).
I'm less talking about fitting the theme, and more about ease of justification. Strange Aeons has a built-in plausible way for someone from Earth to wind up on Golarion.
Reign of Winter would be interesting, but I just can't really think of an easy way to insert such a character.
Which AP is easiest to work in a character from Earth?
My first thought is Strange Aeons, since the PCs are assumed to have been captured/enslaved by a denizen of Leng, who could feasibly have gotten someone from Earth.
Are there any others that particularly lend themselves to this idea?
Carrion Crown ran from February to July 2011, Strange Aeons August 2016 to February 2017. That a 5.5 years gap that we could transpose in universe and go from there. So what was Count Lowls up to, 5.5 years before Strange Aeons?
Based on the Thrushmoor Terror, that would have been just before he acquired the PCs (which was 5 years before the AP starts). So probably that would have been when Lowls got tired of being ridiculed in Ustalav's academic circles and started becoming obsessed with his occult research and the Star Stelae.
Aside from the comics, are there any other sources of fiction that the iconics appear in? Trying to get a better idea of their personalities that just the little blip given in their blogs.
Hell's Rebels (so Ravounel, so right on Citadel Enferanc's region) has Ithanothaur, a CN mature adult umbral dragon (so CR 15) living in the North Plains on the Cheliax-Nidal border.
Correct. IC (in character) is used to denote things as perceived by the inhabitants of Golarion (so for example the transcripts from Golarion books) and OOC (out of character) is used to denote things as perceived by us (such as the mechanical rules).
I am also now realizing how incredibly off topic this has become. I apologize for derailing the thread.
Ah. I guess that's a difference in perspective then, I don't see that as being as important as you seem to.
It's rather centrally important to how relevant Asmodeus is in cosmological terms.
Why? The other deities can also do it. It still would have happened, just differently. All his power and influence comes from the fact that he is older than everyone else. The multiverse would function largely the same with or without him.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
Read the Cycle of Souls excerpt on page 22 of CoR. It states exactly that they were the first, the strongest, and that they (or really Ihys) created the Cycle of Souls.
Ah! It does indeed. Still IC text and not well supported by the OOC stuff we have, which was my initial point anyway.
Almost every ooc reference to Asmodeus that I have ever seen (see the books I read through above) directly says that he is one of the oldest and wisest beings in existence. Since the gods don't have stat blocks, nothing ever explicitly says anything about how powerful he is in comparison to other deities, but given the fact that he is the only full-deity devil and is opposed by the entirety of the celestial planes (which are chock full of true deities) without losing or dying, it can be presumed that he is something of a heavyweight. I agree that nothing ooc says that Ihys created the cycle of souls, but the cycle of souls is almost never ooc discussed to the best of my knowledge.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
Well, we know that there's no real timeline, but the above-referenced page indicates that mortals predate Heaven itself. So it seems the timeline is:
1) Asmodeus and Ihys (and later the other deities) create life
2) The outer planes are formed from the actions of the mortals
3) Ihys creates free will, starting the cycle of souls. Asmodeus displeased
4) Asmodeus and Ihys (and their various supporters) fight (I'm assuming this is what the books refer to as the Rebellion, but don't believe that it is explicitly stated anywhere)
5) Asmodeus kills Ihys, takes his followers to Hell (this is explicitly called the Exodus)
You're right in that CoR and BotD both seem to gloss over the intervening time between each event, but they do not give any span of time at all, so it's not really contradictory, just misleading. My take is that that's simply due to the face that Tabris is an immortal and thus has a very different concept/perception of time than we would (and ooc, that would drastically increase the page count if they tried to include too much of the intervening time for something that is relatively unimportant).
There's zero OOC text supporting the first part of #1 being the case (or, indeed, most of #3, though I personally find that one more plausible). And the huge gap there needs to have been between #3 and #4 for the OOC stuff we have to make sense is a bit of a timeline problem given Asmodeus's demonstrated character....
Not sure what you mean by the timeline problem given Asmodeus character...?
Other than that I seem to agree with you, just don't find most of it to be as important as you do. I think our different perspectives are largely procedural in nature. You are looking for IC and OOC references to explicitly support each other, thus holding the lore to a higher degree of rigor than I, who am content with a lack of explicit contradictions or mutual exclusiveness, am.
That's not what I got from reading it. BotD specifically says that the other "motes" learned how to use the power of the Seal the same way Asmodeus and Ihys did, Asmodeus and Ihys were just the first to do so. As you said, other than that they were the first and strongest, there's nothing particularly cosmologically important about them.
It literally says 'Ihys and Asmodeus created the foundation of reality.' and other statements like that. Basically, the BotD version, as Asmodeus's party line, exaggerates his importance quite a bit. Which is the primary thing I was objecting to.
Ah. I guess that's a difference in perspective then, I don't see that as being as important as you seem to.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
CoR goes into a bit more detail about how the planes and outsiders were created (and has a more detailed, but still incredibly vague timeline), but other than that they appear to be the same.
At no point in CoR does it even imply that Ihys and Asmodeus are the first deities, nor that they 'created the foundation of reality.' or similar claims.
That's a pretty big difference, actually.
Read the Cycle of Souls excerpt on page 22 of CoR. It states exactly that they were the first, the strongest, and that they (or really Ihys) created the Cycle of Souls.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
I agree that the rebellion happened after Ihys created free will, but am not sure how that's a discrepancy? That's the catalyst that started the war/rebellion.
My issue is 'how long after that did the war occur?' CoR And BotD make it sound like very soon after, while the Archdevil articles and the like make it seem like a lot more time passes (I have a hard time believing the Heresy Ovens predate Pharasma as such, for example).
Well, we know that there's no real timeline, but the above-referenced page indicates that mortals predate Heaven itself. So it seems the timeline is:
1) Asmodeus and Ihys (and later the other deities) create life
2) The outer planes are formed from the actions of the mortals
3) Ihys creates free will, starting the cycle of souls. Asmodeus displeased
4) Asmodeus and Ihys (and their various supporters) fight (I'm assuming this is what the books refer to as the Rebellion, but don't believe that it is explicitly stated anywhere)
5) Asmodeus kills Ihys, takes his followers to Hell (this is explicitly called the Exodus)
You're right in that CoR and BotD both seem to gloss over the intervening time between each event, but they do not give any span of time at all, so it's not really contradictory, just misleading. My take is that that's simply due to the face that Tabris is an immortal and thus has a very different concept/perception of time than we would (and ooc, that would drastically increase the page count if they tried to include too much of the intervening time for something that is relatively unimportant).
Might check out a Phantom Blade spiritualist. Nice stat synergy and goes well with their whole sword thing. Also generally a very versatile and well rounded class.
From everything I've read, the rebellion against Heaven/the Exodus and the war against Ihys are the same thing. They are explicitly called out as the same thing in several out of character text descriptions. There's also not really a timeline, but what vague one we have doesn't seem to contradict itself that I can find.
The thing is that the original BotD story portrays Ihys and Asmodeus as the sole creators of reality, as older than the other Gods and fundamentally more important. And that's the part that really doesn't fit.
If you'll recall my objection was to him being cited as 'one of two primal deities of the Great Beyond'. Indeed, I specifically noted that I totally bought him killing his brother (which, indeed, looking this over once more, there's a wealth of evidence for).
The CoR version is actually pretty divergent in regards to their importance, with them portrayed as just two among many (Ihys is still noted as having discovered free will, but that's the only reason either of the two is important in a cosmological sense).
That's not what I got from reading it. BotD specifically says that the other "motes" learned how to use the power of the Seal the same way Asmodeus and Ihys did, Asmodeus and Ihys were just the first to do so. As you said, other than that they were the first and strongest, there's nothing particularly cosmologically important about them.
Book of the Damned pg. 260 wrote:
The First were not alone during this age, though, for while they were the first, others followed their paths. From the ranks of the younger motes grew vital forces synchronous to the things Ihys and Asmodeus created, majestic and wild beast spirits, and new personalities akin to the First. These beings gathered upon the islands the brothers created, the greatest of them even learning to shape the power of the Seal themselves.
CoR goes into a bit more detail about how the planes and outsiders were created (and has a more detailed, but still incredibly vague timeline), but other than that they appear to be the same.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
The timeline still doesn't seem to quite work out because the rebellion against Heaven seems to have occurred long after free will was a thing (Moloch was explicitly an Archon who ran the Heresy Ovens immediately prior to the rebellion...that seems like something that is unlikely to predate mortals), but it's a lot closer than the BotD version.
I agree that the rebellion happened after Ihys created free will, but am not sure how that's a discrepancy? That's the catalyst that started the war/rebellion.
The same story is in CoR, which was written before BotD and also doesn’t involve devils.
Who tells it is sort of irrelevant to my main point, really. It's a story told in-world, while the 'rebel angel' theory is one with actual non-IC textual support.
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
I don’t understand your reasoning for the timing incompatibility, and I don’t recall enough of the rebellion to comment (I will refresh myself tomorrow).
The timing incompatibility is that he was one among many angels when he rebelled (as is demonstrated by him recruiting others) and you pretty much don't get to be an angel after murdering your brother for exceedingly Evil reasons. Meanwhile, the murder story happens right at the dawn of creation, possibly before angels even existed.
Multiple Asmodeus's is totally possible. As, technically, is him having conned Heaven for a prolonged time, though the latter seems unlikely in context.
Ok, so I finally finished reading through all the books I had access to (Book of the Damned, Chronicle of the Righteous, Concordance of Rivals, and the Bestiary 6 entries for the archfiends). Books that might be pertinent but I don't have access to are Faiths of Corruption, Gods and Magic, and that one article about Asmodeus from Mother of Flies (Council of Thieves part 5).
From everything I've read, the rebellion against Heaven/the Exodus and the war against Ihys are the same thing. They are explicitly called out as the same thing in several out of character text descriptions. There's also not really a timeline, but what vague one we have doesn't seem to contradict itself that I can find.
Also: something that you've said several times is that Asmodeus is a fallen angel, and while I seem to remember that being the case as well, I cannot find anything that actually says that. Do you know where that is stated, or is that just something we've all collectively just assumed?
Sure, but he explicitly got that one in Hell from Devils. It's the official story.
SOLDIER-1st wrote:
And either way, those are not mutually exclusive viewpoints.
They really are. Tabris's story is that Asmodeus was one of the first two beings in existence and that he murdered the other while they were still the rulers of all and just after they created everything, while the 'rebel angel' story clearly indicates that as pretty blatantly untrue timing-wise (since his rebellion happened much later than that), and power-wise (since he was not the highest ranking angel around).
Now, he might very plausibly have murdered his brother in both versions, but they are substantively different.
The same story is in CoR, which was written before BotD and also doesn’t involve devils.
I don’t understand your reasoning for the timing incompatibility, and I don’t recall enough of the rebellion to comment (I will refresh myself tomorrow).
There's also that detail regarding Asmodeus being one of the 2 primeval deities in the Great Beyond (the other one having had a fatal case of the stabbings),
This is Asmodeus's story. It's presented in purely in-character text as the story he tells.
It is a lie. Asmodeus was an angel who rebelled and led others in rebellion and went off to conquer and rule Hell. This is stated several places in the out-of-character sections Archdevil deity articles, and is thus canonically supported.
In-universe you can easily believe either, but the latter is correct.
Tabris wrote BotD, not Asmodeus. And either way, those are not mutually exclusive viewpoints.
Fahrauth, a great wyrm umbral dragon. His statblock and lair (with his hoard) is featured in Dragons Unleashed.
Kinda worried if as CR 22 he is bit too high CR for your plans?
Yeah. I’ll probably have it be one of his children or something, sent to scout things out but ultimately expendable. A young adult should be in the cr12 range I think, which is about right.
I checked, the one I was actually thinking of was LG Bronze Dragon.
There is also CE umbral dragon who Nidal rebels are encouraging to attack Cheliax in order to create false flag operation where it seems Nidal is encouraging dragon to attack Cheliax in hopes Cheliax and Nidal go to war
I think it had one chaotic dragon that annoys cheliax regularly
I believe that would be Tyraxalan. Might use him as the mastermind that this other dragon reports to or something, but don't want him to be the main focus.
I'm looking for a chaotic dragon in Cheliax (so likely red/white or brass/copper) that's in the general vicinity of Citadel Enferac (or at least closer to them than any other Hellknight citadel). Does anybody know of one offhand?
I can of course make my own, but if there's one already described that would make my job easier.
You mean your question about how common the forks are?
Common - the 19 major planes (20 counting the material)
Uncommon - major demiplanes and deeper layers of the Big 19 (like Hell’s lower levels).
Rare - obscure, insignificant, or difficult-to-travel-to demiplanes.
Unique - lost, forgotten, or deliberately hard to reach demiplanes.
Prices in a Store:
Common - 100 gp
Uncommon - 2,000 gp
Rare - 20,000 gp
Unique - Priceless
You can “tune your own” by using a 25gp untuned fork. Easy to do for a common plane, but progressively harder and more time-consuming with increased rarity. Past common, the book gives guidelines but essentially the GM is going to have to manufacture a situation where the PCs can turn forks.
Where are you getting your information? I never seen anything like this when reading the plane shift spell.
Planar Adventures goes into great detail about planar tuning forks.
I would be very wary about trying to make a kingdom in the Mwangi Expanse or the Storval Plateau. The temptation to write these areas off as savage lands ripe for conquest is...really not great. If the kingdom model of government worked for these areas and these cultures, they would have done it themselves.
Parts of Mwangi Expanse are thriving under a kingdom-like culture (read the Fireborn Novel for several examples)
Per the title, which APs are most permissible for a large/huge eidolon? For reference, large wouldn't be until level 8, and huge not until level 13. Also; it's an earth elemental, so it will get burrow at level 8 which could potentially mitigate some issues.
Ok, so there's a TON of possible ways that this could have gone, so I'm only going to write up what I think are the things you guys most likely would have done.
You manage to rescue a severely damaged and traumatized Ves (CYBORG WIZARD!), escaping from the pitch black nightmare that is Crowhollow by the skin of your teeth. You flee east across the Numeria/Brevoy border, with an enraged Hellion in hot pursuit. As soon as you feel you safely can, you use your scrolls of teleport to travel back to Lord Vezivo's territory.
Once there, you report to Vicarius Torchia, who commends you on your successful mission and promotes you all. As usual of course, with that promotion comes more work. He informs you that Lady Nought (who you suddenly realize you haven't heard from in some time) has hired the Order of the Gate to remove Hellion, in exchange for future services once she controls the Technic League. To that end, he had Imazi (the varisian seer who most of you met on your first mission) capture Zakat, an extremely potent stormborn sorcerer that would be devastatingly effective against the constructs that Hellion prefers. Imazi struggles to train him and reign in his wild nature.
(As you recall, while she's doing that, you were on your fateful trip to Druma to convince the Kalistocrats to let you keep Zakat.)
Now, your job is to return Vespartius to Citadel Enferac, so that the signifers there can hopefully devise a countermeasure to the modifications that Hellion seems to imbue in his slaves.
Before you can return though, Lord Vezivo manages to restore Vespartius's memories, and Ves hurriedly relays to you that Hellion has almost completed construction of a portal to the Machine Armory, a demiplane filled with thousands upon thousands of machines that Hellion could use as his army.
You inform the Vicarius of this new information, and he orders you to find and destroy that portal by any means necessary. Vespartius says he thinks he knows where it is, and after loading up on as much destructive gear and magic as Lord Vezivo can give you, you all once again travel back to Numeria (you're really starting to hate that place).
You re-enter Crowhollow, though this time any pretense of subtlety is gone, and you tear through the dungeon like a wrecking ball. Unfortunately, you get to the room where the portal is, and see that it's already active, and there's no sign of Hellion. Torn, you eventually decide to follow in, as there is no guarantee that destroying the portal on this end would prevent Hellion from constructing another one. Vespartius uses the portal to amplify his magic and manages to get a message sent off to the Vicarius requesting reinforcements before you enter the portal.
Inside, you note with relief that it doesn't seem like Hellion has succeeded yet, as the rows upon rows of machines still stand silently in their ranks. With no leads on where to go, you decide to head towards the tower in the distance. As you get closer, you start seeing flitting clouds of dust your peripheral, and hearing a muted, buzzing whisper. Vespartius seems to be able to understand it more clearly than anyone else, and after some deliberation you decide to communicate with it. It calls itself Iteration 384 and requests your aid in fighting off Hellion. It has managed to keep Hellion from gaining control of the machines by shutting off certain structures, but in the same vein it cannot control the machines itself either. It instructs you on how to physically block off Hellions access, so that it can work on restarting the shut down structures and gaining control of the machines.
So you run around, avoiding Hellion and breaking things. Depending on how long you take and how successful you are, different things could happen (depends more on dice than your choices, so I'll list them).
1) Hellion spots you and you have to fight him. However, if you distract it long enough, this takes Hellions attention away from Iteration 384, who manages to gain control of the machines and helps you fight Hellion.
2) You manage to break enough access points that Hellion cannot take control of the machines. Iteration 384 takes control of the machines and fights Hellion.
3) You manage to stay one step ahead of Hellion, but just barely. Fortunately, Imazi, Zakat, and a squad of Hellknights (the infamous Dread Wing), arrive and help you fight Hellion.
4) Hellion manages to gain access to a point that you haven't been able to break. It succeeds in gaining control of the machines.
4a) You manage to escape and destroy the portal behind you. Now you have to prepare for a possible invasion.
4b) You manage to stay alive inside the Machine Armory long enough that Imazi, Zakat, and a squad of Hellknights arrive to help you fight Hellion. But with this many different hosts to choose from, Hellion is extremely difficult to pin down, and killing it is almost impossible. You retreat, though Zakat is having the time of his life and refuses to go with you. You destroy the portal behind you, hoping that Zakat is powerful enough to take down Hellion, or at least stall it until you can get an army there.
(Of course you could all die at any time, but I'm only including the positive outcomes here)
After the battle, you return to Citadel Enferac to significant acclaim, receiving promotions and some well deserved rest. After a few weeks, you are called into a meeting at Citadel Demain. There you meet the heads of all the major Hellknight orders, as well as finally meeting Lady Nought in the flesh (where she is slightly less intimidating). She has finally taken control of the Technic League, and with your help has eliminated all major opponents to her in Numeria. As part of her agreement, she agrees to allow a Hellknight citadel and order to be constructed in Numeria, and Vicarius Torchia has motioned you all to be head of this new citadel. The rest of the orders agree, and you receive the funding and Hellknights necessary to begin construction.
An enormous enemy of order and lawfulness has been slain, but your work is far from over.
Hey guys. I'm sorry to say but things have finally gotten to the point where I don't think I can continue this game anymore. Work is crazy since we're trying to design several new systems for our show in 2020, and I'm also getting married soon. I just don't really have the time to post even on the incredibly slow schedule we have been doing. I apologize for not being able to finish this out with you. I hope you all managed to enjoy yourselves. If you want I'll post out a generic outline of the way the adventure would wrap up.
You were all great players and I super appreciate you playing with me! Good luck in all your future endeavors!
Knowledge (Religion): You recognize the creature from the book On Spirits and Sufferings, an infernal tome on incorporeal undead. Its name is translated as 'Caller in Darkness'. They are spiritual devourers, a cloud of psychic anguish that seeks to devour the minds of sentient creatures. They live in darkness, and can be warded away by sunlight.
The room is disgusting, blood, rust, and dirt covering the floor, walls, and even ceiling. Standing in stark contrast are the two operating tables, and a workbench. The operating tables are spotless steel, with restraints and trays of tools, small blades, and other unusual implements on them. The workbench contains more and stranger tools, all neatly placed and organized (you presume). Across the room are four doors, with another to your left.
Kizziar:
Hovering in the middle of the room is a roiling cloud of darkness. As you watch, you see screaming, ghostly faces flicker throughout the cloud.
Monster Perception:1d20 + 22 ⇒ (1) + 22 = 23 Wow. Since it got a nat 1 and you're all invisible, I'll assume that it doesn't see you and didn't notice the door opening, so don't worry about rolling Stealth.
Hey guys. I hear you on the procedure, I'll start assuming that. Works crazy atm, but I'll do my best to get something up tomorrow. Sorry for the delay.
Light floods into the room, and everyone can see clearly, though it takes a moment for your eyes to adjust. Nothing untoward happens. The room appears just as Kizziar described.
Right, sorry. Also remember though that blind characters (specifically Urashu and Morvan) take a -4 penalty on Str and Dex based skill checks, and require an DC 10 Acrobatics check to move at more than half speed (not pertinent yet, but may potentially become so).
As you carefully make your way across the room, Urashu stumbles over some debris and shifts an overturned chair slightly. The nearest zombie cocks its head and wanders over to where the sound came from, but by the time it gets there you have moved on. Peck easily opens the door, and you all quietly shuffle through it.
Darkvision:
You find yourselves in a short hallway with two doors, one directly to your right, and one straight ahead at the end of the hall. Nothing else seems to be in the room.
Balancing atop Kallants broad shoulders, Peck carefully disables the first trap, but the second trap proves more difficult, and something goes wrong. A beam of light fires from it, but unlike previously, this is constant, firing against the far wall and gradually causing it to glow with heat.
"Oh s&#&. Ummm... we should probably move out of here..." Peck says quickly and nervously.
GM, how did the trap see we cast light when we are in an Invisibility sphere? Since I'm holding my mace, it shouldn't have been able to see us.
It didn't. According to Invisibility:
Invisibility wrote:
...Light, however, never becomes invisible, although a source of light can become so (thus, the effect is that of a light with no visible source)...
Also: map with tokens is up. You still haven't been noticed, so no initiative yet (though if you know you're going to fight them rather than try and stealth around them then you might as well go ahead).
