For those who enjoy guessing the future of Paizo products...


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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You know, it’s a good time to put up a book/class pitch thread with PaizoCon in 2 weeks. I have to head into the office shortly, but I’ll put something up by 12 pacific if no one else has by then.

My 3 or 4 most wanted books haven’t changed, but I’ll update the guesses and order based on what we now know.

Rulebooks come in 3 broad categories (Campaign Theme(GG, Dark Archive), Option (RoE, TV), and Bestiary (BotD)), so I’d love to see what everyone else wants for each!


BookBird wrote:

Do you think there's a possibility they'll make such targeted bestiaries in the future, such as your proposed Dragon and Aberration ones? I'd love to see a "big book of dragons" to bring back all those dragon types we're currently missing from 1e as well as some new ones, or to cover the abominations hanging around in the Dark Tapestry, but Paizo have said they're not gonna make further bestiaries past 3 like they did with 1e.

Something I think as quite likely however is another book like "Book of the Dead", which was a mix of bestiary, rule options, and lore. I'd love to see the equivalent for Aberrations and Dragons.

Well, Book of the Dead happened, and to my understanding was received very well. Indeed, the primary response that I saw (and gave) was "Well. That was awesome. Now can we get it for X?"

Paizo's not dumb. They pay the bills by offering the customers thins that the customers will want to buy. Unless the sales numbers on BotD were very different than I expect they were, I'm guessing we'll see more books in more or less that form. It's really a matter of where they fit in the roadmap.

...and, seriously, RotE is arguably "Book of Elementals", pretty much in that same style, so....


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Personally, I'd love one focused on fey and/or plant creatures. Maybe with some new character options, like the long-awaited fey druid!

Liberty's Edge

Animals (and rather Animal-like Ancestries) it is.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
"Spirits" in religion and folklore have always been tied deeply to material things--be they ghosts haunting their ancestral swords or little gods of rivers and bridges. I am all for making the shaman's rituals close to the thaumaturge's esoterica. Little offerings, manipulations of the space, preparing meals and drinks and gifts and mood-setting music.

Kind of like setting up an alter and fish head sacrifice to the ice spirits so they don't freeze the fields for ten years? ;)


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Howl of the Wild is our new rulebook, a study of Golarion’s varied and mythical animals conducted by an older Baranthet on an airship! There’s six new Ancestries in it, with Centaurs (yay!) and Minotaurs (YAY!) already confirmed.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I wonder what the other ancestries might be.

Part of my really hopes for a Satyr/Faun ancestry but that might just be a bit too much greek myth inspo, + they might be better suited for a fey-focused themed book.
Maftets maybe?

It woulf also be cook to see some more non-mamalian themed aninal ancestries.


With a clear beast and wild theming on the new rulebook, as well as the Centaur and Minotaur already revealed as two of six (!) new ancestries coming with it, I wonder if what people's predictions may be for the remaining four. Obviously we can't anticipate anything completely new that Paizo may reveal, but I have a few inclinations of those that already exist in the lore. Bearing in mind that the theme of the book is a travelling zoological expedition, they really can be from anywhere in Golarion. With that in mind, the first ones that come to mind for me are the Stheno and the Harpy, with the Maftet less so. I also remember hearing of insect people in Arcadia, and that might be a fun nod to that continent.

Sidenote, the new art for both Baranthet and the new ancestries is GORGEOUS. I can't get enough of it. This book can't come out soon enough.


I always get nervous when new ancestries get announced lately. I really need to finish that supplement. I'm genuinely excited! I just hope we learn the ancestries soon so I don't have to be nervous. X3


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Centaurs and Minotaurs are both animal-y critters out of Greek myth, so I feel goods about the odds of Stheno in this book. Similarly myth-inspired, Maftets - who we’ve seen pop up in weird places across 2e lore - might sneak in here as representatives for desert environments.

Look a little further beyond that, and things get really exciting. Is this where Rougarous find their footing, giving us some canine Arcadian folk? Maybe we hear more about the Kitsune-related Adlets of the frozen north? Bugs are wildlife too; is this where Formians or Klinkois get to shine?

Lots of exciting possibilities.

EDIT: I had no clue Formians are OGL! They’ll need a rename if my hopes of a Castrovel campaign are ever gonna see daylight.


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Since it's Greek-themed so far, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Thriae-esque beepeople ancestry, which I'm sure plenty of people will be thrilled about.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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keftiu wrote:
EDIT: I had no clue Formians are OGL! They’ll need a rename if my hopes of a Castrovel campaign are ever gonna see daylight.

It's more complicated than that. They're in the same category as dero, which were originally introduced not quite 100 years ago in plup/post-pulp sci-fi magazines, and inspired Gygax and others working on D&D to translate them into the game.

It's why we went with the original spelling of dero with one R in Pathfinder... and why we shifted back to formians being aliens from another planet rather than outsiders from the lawful neutral plane, which was a D&D thing.

The same kind of goes for the displacer beast, for that matter, which is lifted from an older sci-fi story and renamed from the couerl.

There's a fair amount of monsters in D&D who don't really belong to D&D, but that in the modern era are so associated with D&D that they might as well belong to them, in other words. Which makes these things extra complicated and tricky to sort out for something like the ORC license.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Then there are monsters that aren't from D&D, where brought up in D&D once, and then never reused again, but old school people recognize them while new school have never heard of them :'D

It sounds like pain to untangle all that


James Jacobs wrote:
There's a fair amount of monsters in D&D who don't really belong to D&D, but that in the modern era are so associated with D&D that they might as well belong to them, in other words. Which makes these things extra complicated and tricky to sort out for something like the ORC license.

It sure would be nice if WotC would just be clear about what they are -- and aren't -- asserting is their intellectual property. It's almost like they're trying to obfuscate matters...

*cough*


Huh. Okay. So "Book of Dead, but Animals" is the paizocon rulebook. That's cool. We're also seeing a lot of stuff

...and for ancestries... what about Harpies? They look pretty bird-themed to me. Also, "friendly harpy" is definitely one of those things that it's handy to have on an airship, especially for managing stuff like rigging and repairs.

Even withotu the harpies, though, this book is a pretty hard-core unlock for Iblydos... so maybe we're headed towards Casmaron (and Vudra) after all? We do apparently get a panel specifically on the Darklands coming up.

At the same time, it helps a fair bit for any heavily wilderness-themed area... so it's not like the Saga Lands are out of the running.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Oh we would adore a harpy ancestry.


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A harpy/siren ancestry definitely has plenty of room to expand away from strix.


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I've been kind of craving an intelligent/uplifted animal ancestry, which could fit in pretty well here. +1 for Harpies, too. Sphinxes could also be cool.

With the animal book being announced and a tease from Aaron that we might be getting a class playtest announcement for GenCon, I think I agree with the Shaman expectation (if they go with a connecting-with-nature-spirits angle) and potentially Shifter. I'm a big fan of shapeshifting and it could be a nice opportunity to get some updates/clarifications to the battle form rules (or build off the clarifications in PF2R).


keftiu wrote:
EDIT: I had no clue Formians are OGL! They’ll need a rename if my hopes of a Castrovel campaign are ever gonna see daylight.

The obvious starting point, at least for me, would be to start looking at words like myrmidon, myrmex, and similar. I'm sure that Paizo can come up with something more creative than this bar napkin etymology stuff I'm spitting out right now though.

Actually, combining formian and myrmex into formex sounds kind of neat, the Formex. That also does sound like some kind of Starfinder-esque clothing material though.


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I guess to go back to the original message that started this thread, I feel like Howl of the Wild could help to "unlock" just about any region of the game since nature is, well, a part of everywhere. Southern Garund and Casmaron/Iblydos both could make sense since they often have the narrators of a book come from the region they're heading towards like in Book of the Dead and Treasure Vault, but I feel like those areas also probably need more work to get set up, and I'm not sure if they'd be heading towards them right after something as big as the Tian Xia books.

I think I'd probably lean towards this setting up a Saga Lands book, the Mammoth Lords could use some more animal companion options for players, and the area as a whole has a lot of wilderness throughout it. I don't feel too strongly about this since I think you can justify this leading to a lot of areas of the game, and I may be wrong about Southern Garund and Casmaron too, but there is also a lot of other stuff pointing towards it.


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It was mentioned a while back that Stolen Fate would offer some hints to where PF2 is going in the next few years, and I figure that's worth making explicit.

Stolen Fate #1: The Choosing:
Book one takes us to seven locales, all of which are interesting. The Halana Theocracy is in Arcadia's Deadshot Lands, profiled in Guns & Gears as a place in service to wicked avian divinities like the demon lord Pazuzu. The Terwa Uplands are in Garund's Mwangi Expanse, where we briefly see a local Mbe'ke dwarf and Cloud Dragon. The Open Bridge in Vudra is menaced by a ceaseless tide of aberrations (one of my favorite dangling plot hooks of 2e). Nagajor hosts a group of undead-slaying Scaleseed Order warriors, who I'm certain we'll see more of in the two Tian Xia books. Egorian in Cheliax, the wilds of Iobaria, and the Storval Stairs in Varisia offer some more familiar Avistani offerings.

Let that inform your guesses as you will.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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The BIG hints don't show up until the "Beyond the Campaign" article in the 3rd book.

Things that take place before then aren't as much intended to be previews, but this adventure DID let us get a little bit more work done on other parts of the world for sure. That was as much us wanting to give tasty little sips from all over rather than sneaking a peek at an upcoming menu, though.


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James Jacobs wrote:

The BIG hints don't show up until the "Beyond the Campaign" article in the 3rd book.

Things that take place before then aren't as much intended to be previews, but this adventure DID let us get a little bit more work done on other parts of the world for sure. That was as much us wanting to give tasty little sips from all over rather than sneaking a peek at an upcoming menu, though.

Thanks for the clarification - and the reason to be extra excited next month!


AnimatedPaper wrote:


The rulebook product page specifies they try to do 3 rulebooks a year. Which they have generally done since releasing PF2, with the exception of last year.

Lost Omens are the line they try to do 4 a year.

Having said this, it completely passed me by that the AP titles up to December have all been announced, but the next Lost Omens product titles that we know about will be in 2024. While I'm excited for Tian Xia, I am a little sad that it looks like 3rd and 4th LO 2023 books might have been pushed back to accommodate remasters.

I am absolutely not criticizing Paizo or any member of the staff or management for that decision, if that was the case. Like I've said, I assumed something would have to give, but I had been assuming all along it would be the Rulebook line that would see delays.

But hey, at least High Helm didn't have to be pushed back. That's definitely good news.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
pixierose wrote:

I wonder what the other ancestries might be.

Part of my really hopes for a Satyr/Faun ancestry but that might just be a bit too much greek myth inspo, + they might be better suited for a fey-focused themed book.
Maftets maybe?

It woulf also be cook to see some more non-mamalian themed aninal ancestries.

While I doubt its going to happen, you know what would be really cool? Getting the Derhii as a playable ancestry.


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I'm still totally stumped by this "nostalgic" AP after Season of Ghosts. There's gotta be some kind of Varisia/Runelords element, which is an embarrassing blindspot of mine, but I also don't know what would be flashy enough to celebrate the big #200.


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It's gonna be set during the fall of Thassilon, far back in Golarion's past. That's right, James Jacobs has totally reversed his preference on "it's very unlikely and we're probably never going to do that". Each PC will be playing one of the Runelords, two of whom will be revealed to have been beautiful kobolds all along. He confirmed it on this twenty-hour podcast. Sorry, I forget the exact link and timestamp. It's from Canada. You probably haven't heard of it.


Kobold Catgirl wrote:
It's gonna be set during the fall of Thassilon, far back in Golarion's past. That's right, James Jacobs has totally reversed his preference on "it's very unlikely and we're probably never going to do that". Each PC will be playing one of the Runelords, two of whom will be revealed to have been beautiful kobolds all along. He confirmed it on this twenty-hour podcast. Sorry, I forget the exact link and timestamp. It's from Canada. You probably haven't heard of it.

Twenty-four hours Canadian podcast? Yeah right!

Obviously you snuck into Paizo headquarters and read some top-secret documents.


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They can't prove anything if I never come out of this cabinet.


Kobold Catgirl wrote:
It's gonna be set during the fall of Thassilon, far back in Golarion's past. That's right, James Jacobs has totally reversed his preference on "it's very unlikely and we're probably never going to do that". Each PC will be playing one of the Runelords, two of whom will be revealed to have been beautiful kobolds all along. He confirmed it on this twenty-hour podcast. Sorry, I forget the exact link and timestamp. It's from Canada. You probably haven't heard of it.

Also KC's uncle totally works for Paizo for real.


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Actually, I do. I'm their secret operative. I'm not supposed to tell anyone, but I trust [the girl reading this].


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
keftiu wrote:

I'm still totally stumped by this "nostalgic" AP after Season of Ghosts. There's gotta be some kind of Varisia/Runelords element, which is an embarrassing blindspot of mine, but I also don't know what would be flashy enough to celebrate the big #200.

I also think Varisia. If it's Runelord related, we'll probably get sucked into the New Thassilonian cold war. James Jacobs has also revealed that Xanderghul isn't as out of the game as we had previously believed, hence his being on the GM Core cover. We could get sucked into his machinations as well. Or, for someone only tangentially tied to the Runelords, Shadows at Sundown revealed that Ileosa is back as a ghost. There's no shortage of options.

ETA: If it's Ileosa, a trip to Korvosa could finally get us the Grey Maiden archetype. That would be a very cool addition #200.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think Shadows at Sundown was implying:
that at conclusion of module, Ileosa came back as vampire like in that crimson throne continuing the article idea :D


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That would be even better.


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PaizoCon draws near, looming on the horizon... this very weekend, in fact!

We can expect previews of imminent stuff (Highhelm, Rage of Elements) and recent reveals (the Remaster, Howl of the Wild), at least one new reveal (there's a potential playtest announcement, and I'm very curious about AP #200), and all the usual panel excitement that happens every year. There's the curious note of an entire event dedicated to the Darklands on the final day - any brilliant predictions for that or anything else?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

On the one hand: an LO: Darklands book would mean a lot of work would have to be done to purge some major Darklands elements of OGL material. On the other hand: Paizo has already started to focus on their own material so less work might be needed than one might think. On the gripping hand: a lot of OGL scrubbing is underway right now, so they may well be done with that in time for mid-to-late 2024 Darklands book.

TL;DR: I suspect a Darklands book is coming, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that didn't happen.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

While I would love a new playtest I don't think a class has been released during a paizocon before? Fully expecting a gencon playtest release.

I do think/hope we'll get AP #200, which is exciting. No idea what it could be as I'm not super familiar with all the 1e aps.

My feeling is we won't get a new rulebook, the main reveal was howl of the wild. Not really sure why it wasn't saved for paizocon if I'm being honest.

What I am expecting is maybe more starfinder products than pathfinder. We'll likely get a new AP and another rulebook for early next year, which is great


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Yeah, we've pretty much been told that the class-adding book is going to be a Gencon-proximate reveal.

Pretty sure Howl of the Wild is counting as a new rulebook... and they did the reveal in the run-up to Paizocon rather than cramming the entire reveal into the con itself.


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The mystery of the nostalgic new AP is completely opaque to me. I hope I like it!


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keftiu wrote:
The mystery of the nostalgic new AP is completely opaque to me. I hope I like it!

The real question is, "What would the folks at Paizo consider nostalgic in an AP?"

And I think it's pretty obvious once you view it from that angle.

Spoiler:
Parties dying horribly to the laughter of pugwampis from the top of the cactus-spiked pit.


I imagine AP #200 will be a GenCon reveal, I mean it would be a little weird for the third Stolen Fate book to have hints for it when it hasn't released yet. I'm personally betting on it being something Runelord related though.


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Personally, I'm confident that AP #200 will finally be the PF2 Age of Worms adaptation we've long been clamoring for. I feel like I have my finger pretty well to the pulse of things, and the vibe I'm picking up is that Hasbro is feeling pretty chill about letting other companies use its properties right now. It's a shoe-in.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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AP #200 will be a Paizocon reveal. AKA: I think tomorrow? For sure Saturday.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Flying in the face of all the IP tyrants, I am quite confident that our 200 AP reveal is going to turn out to be an adventure of actual, named, Disney Princesses sitting down to play Dungeons and Dragons. Because we are going full on IP disrupting, we will include all Marvel and Starwars princesses as well. But you really are just playing the princesses, playing D&D inside Rapunzel's tower on Andor before Thanos colludes with Darth King Shark to blow it all up. That is the big surprise reveal at the end. It will be the only Paizo product ever where you get to play characters who get to fight Force Beholders and Micky Mindflayers, finally killing Vecna and Tiamat, all while having a tea party in a fabulous dresses, talking to our pet mice.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

AP 200 will be about planning PaizoCon 24. A very meta story.


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Unicore wrote:
Flying in the face of all the IP tyrants, I am quite confident that our 200 AP reveal is going to turn out to be an adventure of actual, named, Disney Princesses sitting down to play Dungeons and Dragons. Because we are going full on IP disrupting, we will include all Marvel and Starwars princesses as well. But you really are just playing the princesses, playing D&D inside Rapunzel's tower on Andor before Thanos colludes with Darth King Shark to blow it all up. That is the big surprise reveal at the end. It will be the only Paizo product ever where you get to play characters who get to fight Force Beholders and Micky Mindflayers, finally killing Vecna and Tiamat, all while having a tea party in a fabulous dresses, talking to our pet mice.

And then they go fight a big worm guy.

Alternatively: We Be Goblins, The Adventure Path

Paizo Employee Organized Play Coordinator

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Xethik wrote:
AP 200 will be about planning PaizoCon 24. A very meta story.

can't believe you spoiled my first AP author credit like this


just hoping for mythic


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Evan Tarlton wrote:

On the one hand: an LO: Darklands book would mean a lot of work would have to be done to purge some major Darklands elements of OGL material. On the other hand: Paizo has already started to focus on their own material so less work might be needed than one might think. On the gripping hand: a lot of OGL scrubbing is underway right now, so they may well be done with that in time for mid-to-late 2024 Darklands book.

TL;DR: I suspect a Darklands book is coming, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that didn't happen.

I think in some ways the fact that they are purging OGL stuff makes a Darklands-related AP and/or Campaign setting guide all the more important, and more likely.

Second Darkness was the second AP, and I could see a "nostalgic" AP referencing elements of that.


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Third Darkness: We swear it really is just about running a casino this time.

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