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One thing that would be cool (assuming it hasn't changed from the playtest) is 10 minute long focus powers. For example at spell level 7 dragon wings lasts 10 minutes; that means sorcs basically get permanent flight if they don't use focus for other powers in that 10 minutes period.


Lucas Yew wrote:

I decided to post some questions for the lucky ones who got the books already (with a secondary purpose of providing myself a link to here since the forum's gone haywire today).

1. Is there any additional RAW method other than the Philosopher's Stone or Timeless Body (if they stayed at all) to gain safe effective immortality?

2. Other than the Wish-esque spells, what and how do the 10th level spells fare for each tradition?

3. How many and what kind of 20+ level foes have stat blocks in the Bestiary?

I would personally very much like to know the answer to the first question. So bump on that! But I should say that in the playtest at least, philosophers stone doesn't get you immortality, it does nothing to 'cure' old age.


I read somewhere you can choose between the 4 elements with elemental bloodline, but only fire deals fire damage. The others deal bludgeoning.


ikarinokami wrote:
Gaulin wrote:
Can anyone give a bit more detail to the elemental bloodline? Also is reincarnate in the book?

primal spell list

very good blaster type focus spells.

some people will quibble with the granted spells. but I think its that way, because your focus spell is blaster oriented. so they probably wanted to give you some diversity in the granted spells.

Hmm interesting. Maybe it'll itch my kineticist itch a little.


Can anyone give a bit more detail to the elemental bloodline? Also is reincarnate in the book?


Can general feats upgrade proficiency?


Is shield proficiency the only combat proficiency that can be gained through a general feat?


I really really hope reincarnate is in the final version. It's possibly my favorite spell.


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I would love something like the adaptive shifter, spending an action to grow spikes or wings or grow large or regen, etc, etc. Could just be a druid order though I suppose.


Dragonstriker wrote:
I’d just like to point out that kineticists are not psychic casters (unless using the overwhelming soul archetype) and are absolutely not psionics. Several of the concerns raised above appear to be based on the misapprehension that they are psionics.

I don't pretend to know everything about kineticists but they're kind of in a wierd place. I don't blame anyone for thinking they're psychic casters. They came from occult adventures where almost all the classes use psychic rules (as far as I know) and even the esoteric Knight prestige class caters to kineticists.


In a lot of ways kineticists are like sorcerers. In the description of the class it says something along the lines of the characters powers awakening during periods of high stress. Makes me feel like their powers are something they're born with. But I have no problem with the origin of classes, if I had a player who wanted to get their powers from some freak accident that's fine with me.

Don't really mean to derail the thread, sorry.


Yeah Void and Wood weren't part of the core kineticist, they were added later. They might make it into core in 2e but I doubt it. Though I personally wouldn't be upset or anything if they were added, never hurts to have more options. More power to those who wants to be that sort of a character.


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I'm happy there's so much kineticist support. I would be so happy if it was one of the first added classes!!


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The framework for 2e is really great. Not as many options, but due to the nature of character building, you're not as limited on what you can build (and still make a functional character). There are a lot of things in pf1 that are a baaad idea, a lot of traps. But due to less math and more flexibility there are a lot less bad ideas.

I personally feel like in pf1 you make a build that works and then develop a story off of that. In pf2, I feel more able to think of a character concept and the framework of the game can support what I can think of better and still have a viable character, even though there are less options.


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My favorite classes are the occult adventures ones, but I do doubt they'll be the first added.


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It's too bad there aren't a set of universal feats that characters could take instead of a class feat. Things that aren't integral to the substance of a specific class. Bows shouldn't be limited to rangers or fighters, but they can keep their own unique actions for them. Make some feats that allow any character to be good at a thing in place of class feats.


AnimatedPaper wrote:
Gaulin wrote:

I mean I'm down with infusions being class features, but it would be hard to do right in my mind. There was multiple infusions to choose from each odd level to customize your playstyle. If everyone got a set one every odd level (and a separate track for each element) it would be a little disappointing but they probably have to cut corners somewhere I guess.

I know it'll probably be a good while before we get more classes and kineticist will be more work than most to get right. But it's my favorite class and I won't be able to fully make the jump until it's in! Still going to dabble in 2e though.

I didn’t mean you’d get a set infusion progression. I meant you’d get a choice between several every time you get a new one, much like sorcerers pick new spells.

Oh gotcha. I mean that would be great, just seems like a huge amount of work for one class. Don't want to get my hopes up too high. Most classes only get feats to choose from but I suppose infusions are kind of like spells.


I mean I'm down with infusions being class features, but it would be hard to do right in my mind. There was multiple infusions to choose from each odd level to customize your playstyle. If everyone got a set one every odd level (and a separate track for each element) it would be a little disappointing but they probably have to cut corners somewhere I guess.

I know it'll probably be a good while before we get more classes and kineticist will be more work than most to get right. But it's my favorite class and I won't be able to fully make the jump until it's in! Still going to dabble in 2e though.


Lanathar wrote:
Gaulin wrote:
One thing I was wondering about is how kineticists will select their wild talents and infusions. They can't just be kineticist feats, since that would be barely any of either. It would be cool to have feats be actual feats that change the way the class plays instead of selecting infusions or wild talents. But that would be a ton of work for one class.

What do you mean barely any of either ? They would be every other level

They are absolutely guaranteed to be Kineticist class feats. It is how the system is designed . Perhaps they will cover more than the current ones do. And maybe wild talents might get some special Kineticist skills feats (but that seems too much )

Infusions might be an in built class feature but that would remove the choice

This thread brings up an interesting point - I wonder when Kineticist makes it to print for 2E? I know it is baby of one of the main designers but I wouldn’t count on it before 2021.

I would expect the 2020 book gets oracle and witch for definite. Absolute max new classes I would guess at 6? And I think they would like 2-3 of those to be completely new early on rather than all being 1E conversions ...

Sorry I posted that on my break at work, probably didn't do the best job of explaining what I meant (probably still won't!).

Just looking at kineticist as it is now, you get an infusion every odd level, and a wild talent every even one, on top of other class features like metamagic and such. But if you had to spend every feat in 2e on an infusion, giving you the same number as you'd get in pf1, you'd have no wild talents, no pf1 class features (I'm sure some you'd get as default, but others like metakinesis don't really seem like something you'd get by default), and no room for other talents.

In my mind it would be like if a sorcerer had to spend feats to learn spells.


One thing I was wondering about is how kineticists will select their wild talents and infusions. They can't just be kineticist feats, since that would be barely any of either. It would be cool to have feats be actual feats that change the way the class plays instead of selecting infusions or wild talents. But that would be a ton of work for one class.


A level one druid could have 18 strength if they took drawbacks, could they not?


Fumarole wrote:
Gaulin wrote:
I definitely get what you mean op. In pf1, you had choices more often

Are you sure about this part? Just going by the Playtest rules, when creating a human wizard, you will make 4 ability boost choices, 5 ancestry feat choices, 8 wizard feat choices, 5 general feat choices, 10 skill feat choices and 9 skill increase choices by level 20. That's 41 choices made without taking into account spell choice. Not one single level is devoid of a meaningful choice to develop your character.

If second edition follows the Playtest in this manner there will be no more dead levels.

I'm not sure about it, but it's how I understand it. And I suppose I phrased it wrong. While you have a huge amount of choices in pf2, they're separated a lot more than pf1. I don't think ancestry, general, or skill choices are that impactful on most combat oriented builds. For me personally they're more flavour


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I definitely get what you mean op. In pf1, you had choices more often, with feats every odd level and class features every even level. And while you get class features normally in pf2 like you would in pf1, feats are class based now. So it's almost like feats in pf1 are gone and instead all we have are class features.

In pf1 we could use our class features to focus on one thing and feats to focus on another. Say to make a gish or the like. In pf2 you will have to focus your feats to do the secondary thing you want your character to be good at and rely on base class stuff to be good at the other. It'll be a wierd change and one we'll have to experiment with in order to see how it works. I do feel like there are some classes that need their feats to be effective, and others that don't really need theirs so it's not as big of a blow to multiclass


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Spell duration is one of the main thing I'm worried about in second edition. I'll really miss casters being able to fly all day or have other utility spells more readily available. I do know that spells needed to be toned down, I just wish it was more damage or debuff wise. I love buffing spells :C


Little late to the party on this one. I reeeeally hope that living monolith gets a way to stop aging as a later level feat!!


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I haven't finished listening to it yet but it seems there are a few new little tidbits. I think the ability Joe's character has to roll skills untrained etc is new? Very possible I missed it in the playtest though.

Also I love the glass cannon guys, when I was unsure whether Pathfinder was for me or not I started listening to them and became hooked.


I think it's that they're a completely different playstyle than most casters. I know cantrips are stronger now but not strong enough to base a class around them. But all day blasting is an extremely cool concept to some (me included) and something not other caster can do well. I hate constantly expending resources


Kineticist is by far my favourite class, and the one that is making it hard for me to get too excited for second edition. I will be ecstatic when (if) it comes to second edition. Personally I've read and re-read class features and such for kineticist so much that the rules aren't confusing in the least to me, but if others feel they were complicated then I understand if they need to be changed.

I'd be fine with burn being changed to something more simple like a seperate pool of resources that refills only on an 8 hour rest.

I mostly just wanted to chime in and say my favourite things about the kineticist in the hopes that they stick around for second edition. So here's a little list, though I'm sure I'll forget some stuff.

- All day blasting with optional utility. A little less dpr than martial classes but with cool optional infusions to inflict status effects, do aoe, target different saves, etc.

- Utility talents. Again something you can do all day, or at least a strong effect at the cost of burn (or whatever resource they end up getting). Something that fits the element you choose.

- Picking elements. Being able to choose an element and your specialization and weaknesses are based on that. I personally don't like in other games where characters are a master of all elements, I like having to pick one and go with it.

- Less dependence on items. This one is hard to do without getting into 'confusing' rules territory like elemental overflow and such. But I love the flavour of not needing weapons to deal damage or use skills.

- Mostly SAD. Kineticists really only need dex and con. Everything else is optional or for flavour. This isn't a huge one but I like it anyway.

That being said, there are lots of things that kineticists do poorly, such as multiclassing and archetyping. I think that will be fixed in 2e just by the normal rules.


I had said in another lost that I'm pretty sure Grant's sorcerer was a new bloodline, some kind of elemental type.


I personally hate it when things are overpowered. Though I don't play pfs I always limit my character building to what pfs allows. If I had a cool character moment with something illegal, it wouldn't feel earned to me. That being said, it does make me sad that so few races are legal. So I hope that going forward with second edition they are able to balance races a little more so that more races are available for pfs play. Or barring that, maybe just select ancestry feats that are too strong and ban them.


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I could be wrong, but listening to the glass cannon second edition podcast that came out today (the session they did at paizocon), it seems that Grant's sorcerer was an elemental themed sorcerer. Unless he was getting terminology wrong, or I am. He was saying things like he was using his bloodline spells to do fireball and hydraulic push and things like that.


It probably won't happen, but I think it would be really cool to have a feat or some such to allow a character to refocus in combat. Like maybe a full turn of spending all actions to refocus.


I thought it was a little more cut and dry, but there seems to be a lot of confusion on this subject. Some say that gnomes don't truly age and instead the bleaching is what ages them, and if they survive it they essentially stop aging and become immortal as they were on the first world. Others say they still age, but they appear ageless like a druids timeless body ability. I personally want to make a character that can potentially live forever, and while there are ways to do this, it would be really cool to be able to make any class and just be a bleachling. I was going to do just this until I saw conflicting information on the internet.

Does anyone know, officially, what the answer is? Or is this one of those things that people argue about forever without a true answer?


Bleachlings are basically immortal. Gnomes only age and die because of the bleaching, but if they survive it they stop aging.


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Not to derail the thread as it's supposed to be about spell strength, but I'm worried about spell duration. Considering fewer spell slots and that so many spells last so much shorter than pf1, how have people dealt with this? Has there been any indication that it's a problem or being looked at?

I personally like classes that are a bit more reliable and don't need to rest constantly or be stingy all the time. I got around that in pf1 with long duration buffs or classes with a lot of at will abilities. I don't like martials, especially when a lot of their power is tied to wealth. I love the superhero-y feel of magic but I fear that aside from casting weaker cantrips, I'll feel pretty underpowered and with much less utility than pf1.

I totally understand if the demand for nerfing casters was the reason for this, and maybe it is justified. I'm okay with staying with pf1. I do like a lot of the system and I feel like a balancing reset was needed but it couldn't be for everyone!


Little clarification on the wysp; it specifies that kineticists get +1 to attack and damage, not the +2. But it's still a pretty big help as there aren't as many feats that a kineticist can take to up their attack. Also remember that aid another can be used in combat to aid your attack, and I'm pretty sure that doesn't provoke. So if it can hit that DC 10 check you get a big ol +5 to hit.


The heck is refocus?! I must know


Does the universal capstone never stay dead or whatever it was called (sorry just sneaking a reply at work) prevent you from dieing of old age?


Haha Meirril I love that concept! Thematically I don't think it's what I'm looking for but that's absolutely the type of outside the box thinking I was hoping to see. I had no idea about the conductive weapon property. Thank you!

Evilserran it's funny you should say that, blood kineticist is absolutely another option I was looking at. It's near guaranteed damage is something that interests me very much. It's one of the builds I keep going back to to see if I can make it work. It does give up a lot of options, but wrack, blood throw, and gut wrenching infusion are all super good features. I'm also a huge fan of the capstone. Just so hard to give up so many infusions and utilities for it, but I still might make one.

The Raven Black, that is also kinda neat. Part of the reason I like kineticists so much personally is the all day blasting, but it is nice to be able to hit flat footed a few times.


Yeah I get that. The point of this thread was more in the hopes of getting advice on ways to play around high ac. I get that there's no such thing as a character who can deal with any situation, but the more situations that a character can be prepared for, the better. And this is a team game, meant to be played tactically and with different members patching up weaknesses. But I like to build characters that are more prepared for multiple situations, though there are of course going to be weaknesses.

So I think going water is the way to go. Having strong physical blasts and energy will let me have a bit of both worlds, and there are more reflex saving infusions and even a couple forts in there too. Not to mention some touch ac.


lemeres wrote:

...kineticist is pretty much one of the best classes for dealing with high AC enemies without just avoiding their AC altogether (touch AC, AoE stuff that just does saves instead).

This is because it does all of its damage in a single attack that is at its highest BAB, rather than having damage spread across attacks with ever decreasing chances to hit. Particularly when it is this way at level 5 (when the difference in BAB is not that important).

If you can't hit AC with a kineticist, then you are playing a game where you are just hoping for a natural 20 every attack just to get off damage. Really, the thing kineticists should be struggling against are miss chances (such as concealment).

Really, I don't know what you can do. If your GM throws this mess at level 5, then I doubt there would be much hope even if you switched to a save based blast build- the GM probably stacked the enemies' saves too.

It's not like he's pulling it out of his bum, he's making fully legal characters. It's just that they're not monsters or things PCs are really meant to fight, they're the same builds that players could make. I'm not sure what he saves look like but I don't think they're insane. The character is simply built to be high ac above all else.


I suppose there's a lot of different ways of looking at balance, but you can't please everyone. I know some people love that there's so much variation between builds, and hey love that they can make a super armored tank that can almost never be hit. They really know their stuff and love to push things to he limit (though I'm sure not as mush as you and your friends). Teamwork is something we should work on more but I like self reliance personally and having that time to shine on your own. Makes things very exciting.

I do wonder if mobile blast can fly. It says it's created in a five foot square and that it can be moved 30ft, but no specifications beyond that. It would be pretty cool to be able to force movement/dex saves on opponents, as a lot of Uber high armored foes probably don't have evasion.


I know it's a little unusual, not the norm for the game. I'm not complaining about the rules/balance of the game nor am I complaining about my gm. I was just hoping there was a work around for the character I was thinking of making, that's all.

Part of what draws me to the kineticist is the all day blasting, not really being able to be disarmed, the versatility. I prefer being a somewhat weaker class that can always contribute than being a class that nukes a limited amount of times per day or is heavily specialized in a certain way.

That being said a lot of the time, just for fun, we do arena fights like I've said. Sometimes it's against characters the gm's made, other times it's against each other. In a lot of these cases I can't rely on party backup to help deal.

I'm for sure going to avoid any third party stuff. Even if it's fairly balanced, if I do end up doing well I'll always have that nagging thought that I'm not using official material. I actually limit myself to using only pfs legal stuff as using anything else makes me feel like I'm using unfair options.

Again I don't mean to make this sound like a complaint thread. Just wondering if anyone who'd played a pure earth build had experience with super high AC and had any neat tactics I hadn't thought of. But I'm perfectly fine going water kineticist, I've been torn between the two for a while now.


It doesn't happen all the time, but it happens. Also like to do arena fights against pcs and some are very well optimized to the sameish point


Yeah I think I'll have to go an element that targets touch. It's too bad, kind of wanted to go pure earth.

And yeah I'm already planning on playing a small race with as much dex as I can, even a wysp familiar to boost to hit further. Still not close to enough though


I have a DM that makes homebrew stuff and likes to make characters as if they were a PC and then have them be enemies. He can make some pretty well optimized characters and some have very high AC.

I am looking at making a geokineticist, but I feel that I'd be pretty useless against uber high AC characters. I'm talking low 30s at level 5. Geokineticist, far as I can tell, has no way of dealing with enemies with AC that high. There's spindle and mobile blast, but it won't be too long before enemies will be flying.

Making enemies this way is against the norm, I know, but I'm not looking to bug the GM about changing. I'm just looking for ideas on how I could get around this problem. If not, no huge deal, I can always make an ice kineticist as it's my second choice, but wanting some input from anyone with experience.


blahpers wrote:
A phantom blade doesn't have a phantom, and it's the phantom that has the emotional focus, not the spiritualist. A fractured mind gains abilities based on their phantom's emotional focus; no phantom, no abilities. You can technically take them together, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Dang. I guess I thought that too but was hoping for a different answer. That's annoying.


So I'm exploring creating a Phantom Blade/Fractured Mind spiritualist. I want to make a gnome and focus more on charisma then wisdom. I love the theme of Phantom blade, and the idea that I'll pretty much never be caught with my pants down in regards to not having a weapon.

But Phantom Blade is a little weird when it comes to rules. It doesn't say anything about getting rid of a phantoms emotional focus, and I can assume it doesn't have one or get one. And while looking at the requirements for both archetypes nothing overlaps so it should be viable, I'm thinking since Fractured Mind needs an emotional focus to pick spells and such maybe they aren't compatible.


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What about something in the middle, like class feats that are only accessible if you multiclassed? Like it would require sorcerer and Barb levels, but there was a feat called bloodrage?


Kinetic blade makes a light or one handed melee weapon. It doesn't get any special features. So whatever you pick is just for flavour. So no it wouldn't work with unarmed attacks. And it lasts until the end of the round; you can full attack with it at no extra cost, but it disappears at the end of your turn. So no attacks of opportunities or anything.

As far as using unarmed attacks with kineticist, you'd be looking at kinetic fist. It seems a lot worse, but I think with the right build it can be okay.

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