Remaster Previews: Dragons Most Diabolical

Loving this so far! I am really looking forward to seeing what the occult dragons look like.

Mini Render up next please?

Nice!

Funny that the tag in the center of the image says "Arcane Dragon" when it is a Divine one, but seems like a copy paste error from a previous design doc?

Either way, looks great. Is there a higher res version of the concept art? Would love to be able to zoom in and get the details clearly.

Is this the same as the Infernal Dragon from 1e's Bestiary 6? If so, is there a possibility that the rest of the planar dragons might make an appearance eventually? I'd be over the moon for an Edict dragon. If not, is the Infernal still canon, or has it been written out to make room for this new one?

I still wonder whether the Chromatics and Metallics will simply be renamed or removed entirely (hoping for the former as I quite like them), but I suppose it's wait and see.

Looks like a pleasant fellow :D

That detail is really neat. I'm looking forward to more previews

...Wait so what about infernal dragons?

Is this literally just planar dragon infernal dragon renamed for some reason or did paizo accidentally come up with same dragon twice?

I love this

8 dragons in Monster Core divided by four traditions of magic = 1 good and 1 evil dragon per tradition, I would think?

I'm all for new dragons, especially if they can be melded into the setting in a more integral way that the current chromatics/metallics

It looks cool, I'm excited to see what the art looks like once color is added

This is looking awesome! I hope we can get some nice, high resolution versions for the desktop and such :)

I know that Summoner isn't in the reworked books, but I'm curious if dragon eidolons will become available to every magical tradition at some point as a result of this.

In any case, looking very cool!

I loved seeing the full anatomical sketch. Very nice indeed.

Is this the same as the Infernal Dragon from 1e's Bestiary 6? If so, is there a possibility that the rest of the planar dragons might make an appearance eventually? I'd be over the moon for an Edict dragon. If not, is the Infernal still canon, or has it been written out to make room for this new one?

...Wait so what about infernal dragons?

Is this literally just planar dragon infernal dragon renamed for some reason or did paizo accidentally come up with same dragon twice?

While the two are similar, they are meant to exist as separate entities. Hell is a place all about hierarchy and order, so look forward to see where diabolical and infernal dragons fall within that structure.

Due to very limited space with 1E's Bestiary 6, there wasn't really a good chance to explore the stories of infernal dragons, which might be contributing to why they feel so similar at the moment. (Mind, there are a lot of similarities, since both dragons are derived from Hell!) If and when we get a chance to bring infernal dragons over to 2E, we'll be making sure that both dragons have their roles obviously carved out.

As a note, the arcane tag on this piece is in error. This is from an early draft and we corrected that later on.

BookBird wrote:

Is this the same as the Infernal Dragon from 1e's Bestiary 6? If so, is there a possibility that the rest of the planar dragons might make an appearance eventually? I'd be over the moon for an Edict dragon. If not, is the Infernal still canon, or has it been written out to make room for this new one?

CorvusMask wrote:

...Wait so what about infernal dragons?

Is this literally just planar dragon infernal dragon renamed for some reason or did paizo accidentally come up with same dragon twice?

While the two are similar, they are meant to exist as separate entities. Hell is a place all about hierarchy and order, so look forward to see where diabolical and infernal dragons fall within that structure.

Due to very limited space with 1E's Bestiary 6, there wasn't really a good chance to explore the stories of infernal dragons, which might be contributing to why they feel so similar at the moment. (Mind, there are a lot of similarities, since both dragons are derived from Hell!) If and when we get a chance to bring infernal dragons over to 2E, we'll be making sure that both dragons have their roles obviously carved out.

Are some of the "weird" Dragons from 1e past (Bliss, Dream, Vortex etc) still in consideration for future additions or other lore stuff, or have they been mostly disregarded given their very limited presence in their prior release? I remember being glad to see Cloud Dragons in the Mwangi Expanse, but the revamp of 2e and the introduction of new dragon types dims the hope for some of those more "out there" options.

8 dragons in Monster Core divided by four traditions of magic = 1 good and 1 evil dragon per tradition, I would think?

While I would expect one unambiguously good dragon in this upcoming batch, I think the rest will either be various forms of what we now call neutral, or else they won't be tied to current ideas of alignment. That would allow them to show up and have their character revealed by their actions. We can still do this with current Chromatics and Metallics, but player expectations can be a problem.

Are some of the "weird" Dragons from 1e past (Bliss, Dream, Vortex etc) still in consideration for future additions or other lore stuff, or have they been mostly disregarded given their very limited presence in their prior release? I remember being glad to see Cloud Dragons in the Mwangi Expanse, but the revamp of 2e and the introduction of new dragon types dims the hope for some of those more "out there" options.

All of the dragons from Pathfinder's past are definitely in consideration for updates. Some of them, like the chromatic and metallic dragons, will require additional considerations to "remaster" them and make them a good fit for the game going forward. We're also excited to create new "weird" dragons, too. There's one I can think of that we're adding to Monster Core that feels very weird and creepy, at least to me, so hopefully it scratches that itch a bit!

Beautiful artwork, kudos to Kent Hamilton.

With such awesomeness and power, I find myself a bit disappointed that the description says they serve the archdevils of Hell...instead of the archdevils serving them. Or maybe they serve the archdevils in the "To Serve Man" sense. Sounds like a good high-level AP plot to me...I can dream, I can dream... :)

With the remaster, I feel like the Pathfinder butterfly is breaking out of its chrysalis.

BookBird wrote:

Are some of the "weird" Dragons from 1e past (Bliss, Dream, Vortex etc) still in consideration for future additions or other lore stuff, or have they been mostly disregarded given their very limited presence in their prior release? I remember being glad to see Cloud Dragons in the Mwangi Expanse, but the revamp of 2e and the introduction of new dragon types dims the hope for some of those more "out there" options.

All of the dragons from Pathfinder's past are definitely in consideration for updates. Some of them, like the chromatic and metallic dragons, will require additional considerations to "remaster" them and make them a good fit for the game going forward. We're also excited to create new "weird" dragons, too. There's one I can think of that we're adding to Monster Core that feels very weird and creepy, at least to me, so hopefully it scratches that itch a bit!

As a dragon lover of old (*mumblemumble* years, if you must know), everything about this makes me a very happy boy.

With the remaster, I feel like the Pathfinder butterfly is breaking out of its chrysalis.

Praise be to Desna

Hell yeah!

Gisher wrote:

With the remaster, I feel like the Pathfinder butterfly is breaking out of its chrysalis.

Praise be to Desna

That is the vibe I feel from the Editorial team. They are excited and making Pathfinder more Pathfinder than ever. Not my best slogan though. ;)

...is there a possibility that the rest of the planar dragons might make an appearance eventually? I'd be over the moon for an Edict dragon.

Here here

As a big fan of void and vortex dragons, I can’t wait to see our Occult pair soon!

I can't deny that I do like this but at the same time I can't help but feel sad that the classic chromatics are, at least seemingly, forced to be retconned away. I liked greens and blacks.

I'm very curious to see how the dragon changes are going to impact Apsu and Dahak lore though.

Will the existing primal dragons be reclassed as something else or will they remain as what they currently are?

Traditions has been one of my favorite innovations to 2E.

Adding dragons just adds so much sexy cool.

I can't deny that I do like this but at the same time I can't help but feel sad that the classic chromatics are, at least seemingly, forced to be retconned away. I liked greens and blacks.

I'm very curious to see how the dragon changes are going to impact Apsu and Dahak lore though.

These new dragons are additions to our dragon portfolio, not retcons meant to replace current dragons.

I can't deny that I do like this but at the same time I can't help but feel sad that the classic chromatics are, at least seemingly, forced to be retconned away. I liked greens and blacks.

I'm very curious to see how the dragon changes are going to impact Apsu and Dahak lore though.

Some of them, like the chromatic and metallic dragons, will require additional considerations to "remaster" them and make them a good fit for the game going forward.

They aren't getting retconned away.

Sooo...is this gonna be a complete retcon of all the True Dragons from 1st Edition Pathfinder? I ask as I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'm already unsure about Pathfinder Second Edition Remaster as it is.

Sooo...is this gonna be a complete retcon of all the True Dragons from 1st Edition Pathfinder?

Nope

These new dragons are additions to our dragon portfolio, not retcons meant to replace current dragons.

I am looking forward to playing the Pathfinderiest Pathfinder that has ever Pathfindered.

Sooo...is this gonna be a complete retcon of all the True Dragons from 1st Edition Pathfinder? I ask as I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'm already unsure about Pathfinder Second Edition Remaster as it is.

Literally the two posts above yours tell you the answer to that.

This looks amazing now, and the potential to mix and match for some truly bonkers dragons is tantalizing.

As a big fan of void and vortex dragons, I can’t wait to see our Occult pair soon!

I suppose you meant outer dragons, if you're talking about the alien ones.

Amazing! Really looking forward to this Remaster.

Looks like something I'd fight in DOOM, by which I mean it looks metal as heck.

Looks like something I'd fight in DOOM, by which I mean it looks metal as heck.

I was looking for a good word to describe them, and there it is: they indeed do look so METAL.

I'm curious to see the other ones. The one in the cover of GM Core seems to be so alien that I really thought it was an outer dragon, a time dragon to be more specific.

Diabolic dragons that can unleash the fires of Hell.
That is a big step up from its red so it breathes fire.
New dragons are looking great!

Squeakmaan wrote:

Looks like something I'd fight in DOOM, by which I mean it looks metal as heck.

I was looking for a good word to describe them, and there it is: they indeed do look so METAL.

I'm curious to see the other ones. The one in the cover of GM Core seems to be so alien that I really thought it was an outer dragon, a time dragon to be more specific.

Nah, by the description they're explicitly supposed to be scaley and maybe a bit fleshy, not metal.

They do look really cool though. A part of me feels like they feel more abyssal than infernal, but that may just be me.

Super looking forward to the Occult and Primal Dragons though, though a part of me wonders if one of the Primal families could just straight up have the elemental dragons. For Occult I'm really hoping for something Tulpa-esque though, a living story given draconic form, since Bards are our iconic Occult casters after all.

There's one I can think of that we're adding to Monster Core that feels very weird and creepy, at least to me, so hopefully it scratches that itch a bit!

That said, a part of me is expecting this to also be an Occult dragon so we'll just have to wait and see.

Removed a post for language.

Very cool! The mention of a dragon who is pretty weird and creepy has my friend thinking of Vaal Hazak from Monster Hunter World.

BookBird wrote:

Is this the same as the Infernal Dragon from 1e's Bestiary 6? If so, is there a possibility that the rest of the planar dragons might make an appearance eventually? I'd be over the moon for an Edict dragon. If not, is the Infernal still canon, or has it been written out to make room for this new one?

CorvusMask wrote:

...Wait so what about infernal dragons?

Is this literally just planar dragon infernal dragon renamed for some reason or did paizo accidentally come up with same dragon twice?

While the two are similar, they are meant to exist as separate entities. Hell is a place all about hierarchy and order, so look forward to see where diabolical and infernal dragons fall within that structure.

Due to very limited space with 1E's Bestiary 6, there wasn't really a good chance to explore the stories of infernal dragons, which might be contributing to why they feel so similar at the moment. (Mind, there are a lot of similarities, since both dragons are derived from Hell!) If and when we get a chance to bring infernal dragons over to 2E, we'll be making sure that both dragons have their roles obviously carved out.

Are any dragons being cut from this content/not making a first pass through of the dragons already released to 2e? And are there going to be relevant sorcerous origins - i.e if I want to emulate a primal dragon, say a Cloud Dragon, am I going to have abilities appropriate to that?

Luis Loza wrote:

BookBird wrote:

Is this the same as the Infernal Dragon from 1e's Bestiary 6? If so, is there a possibility that the rest of the planar dragons might make an appearance eventually? I'd be over the moon for an Edict dragon. If not, is the Infernal still canon, or has it been written out to make room for this new one?

CorvusMask wrote:

...Wait so what about infernal dragons?

Is this literally just planar dragon infernal dragon renamed for some reason or did paizo accidentally come up with same dragon twice?

While the two are similar, they are meant to exist as separate entities. Hell is a place all about hierarchy and order, so look forward to see where diabolical and infernal dragons fall within that structure.

Due to very limited space with 1E's Bestiary 6, there wasn't really a good chance to explore the stories of infernal dragons, which might be contributing to why they feel so similar at the moment. (Mind, there are a lot of similarities, since both dragons are derived from Hell!) If and when we get a chance to bring infernal dragons over to 2E, we'll be making sure that both dragons have their roles obviously carved out.

Are any dragons being cut from this content/not making a first pass through of the dragons already released to 2e? And are there going to be relevant sorcerous origins - i.e if I want to emulate a primal dragon, say a Cloud Dragon, am I going to have abilities appropriate to that?

That sounds more like a question you should ask during PaizoCon. Good news, though: They're doing a Q&A on 2 of the 3 days this year, so if you can't make one of the days (or if your question isn't picked during the first one), you can try for the other one!

There's also the Discord channels where you can ask questions as well. I usually do a Google document copy-pasting all the questions and answers there. And I'm planning on covering it again this year.

keftiu wrote:

As a big fan of void and vortex dragons, I can’t wait to see our Occult pair soon!

I suppose you meant outer dragons, if you're talking about the alien ones.

I’m a fan of the Outer Dragons, which makes me excited for the two Occult Dragons (whose vibes I hope will be similar) coming soon.

I try to say what I mean!

Diabolic Dragons sound like they would make incredible Villains, and I could imagine their place in the world. Like I can imagine Thrune having some on the pay roll hoarding/protecting very important documents. Perhaps a large bulk of recently made contracts..