WatersLethe's page

One of PF2's strengths was the siloing of many options to reduce the cognitive load of making selections. The different feat buckets is the main example.

However, item selection is not siloed, and the reduction of slot based itemization from PF1 means you don't generally shop from a selection of rings, then a selection of boots, then a selection of cloaks, etc. It's easy to get lost looking into what you should buy.

If things were categorized better, and with a more clear reference to the ABP chart that tells you what you're supposed to have when, it could make the itemization much more approachable.

As far as food, the inner bark of certain trees, such as pine, birch, and willow, is edible and contains carbohydrates, fiber, vitamins (e.g., vitamin C), and minerals (e.g., potassium). At 500-600 calories a pound, you'd only have to make @5 pounds per person. So 2 uses of Base Kinesis covers 1 person.

LOL! Adventurers listening are absolutely sweating bullets right now.

"They're asking us to eat eat 5 pounds of tree bark now? I thought the jerky was bad enough"

Wouldn't PF2 classes being options unlocked via whatever their play credit system is called an ideal solution?

I'd like to reiterate that the "Pay to get the new version that actually works" isn't a solution to the problems a lot of people are raising. It seems like those saying that we just need to make sure there are enough upgrades throughout the level range are ignoring this.

Players will *still* disdain items without scaling DCs because they don't want to get on the stupid upgrade treadmill. It doesn't matter if there are plenty of upgrade steps along the way. It's the same reason lots of people don't like consumables, a non-scaling item is just saying "Don't get attached."

Pouring money into a hole doesn't feel good and it's not weird that people prefer items that don't require you to do that.

Even if full automatic scaling isn't desirable, there are ways to give DCs that are at least relevant. Like my earlier suggestion, or like: "Use the item's DC or an Easy DC for the Character's level, whichever is greater"

One decision point I think really kind of sucks here is how SF2 sort of silo'd off melee builds into their own space. The fact that you can't be a melee ghost operative because Paizo decided to make your abilities not work unless you took the melee quarantine subclass hurts build variety a lot, and maybe contributes to that feeling of restrictiveness.

I loathe it when they do this. It's easily my biggest pet peeve when they design new classes.

Let the options breathe!

If you want resource consumption to matter, you could just work with the players to come up with a suitable explanation for why it doesn't work. Maybe the effort required to summon the elemental energy burns enough calories to make it a wash.

If I had to wait another got dang year to get SF2 out just to have a couple extra classes on launch I would have rioted. The starting lineup is plenty to get started, and that's not even considering the PF2 compatibility. I am quite impressed with what we got, and could see myself playing every class multiple times.

Either way, getting the system launched earlier rather than later was such a good call that I will forgive a LOT of foibles.

I could see some kind of Starsinger/Xenoempath type class that communes with creatures and environments in a kind of druid way, but ends up being like a space Steve Erwin / Bear Grylls who uses a deep understanding rather than magic. With the amount of handwavium it might be similar to thaumaturge.

We've been trying to reach you about your starship's extended warranty.

WatersLethe wrote:

They probably wanted to leave open a means for reloading to be a part of the game that matters.

It's possible, but that just makes it weird that laser weapons get bigger rather than the other way around.

I speculate that they wanted it to matter for some weapons so you can engage with that fantasy by choice of weapon. Also in my games so far, laser weapons were the "idk just give me something to shoot between spells" weapon type.

Not saying that's a super compelling design choice or not.

I love the Wiki map!

They probably wanted to leave open a means for reloading to be a part of the game that matters. I would speculate that we might see some interesting bullets that make the lower number of shots more worthwhile. They may have just wanted to hang onto the idea that bullets take up physical space.

I treat hard anathemas like for clerics, druids, champions and barbarians as roleplay guidelines. If the player is following their character concept they're mostly irrelevant.

They have yet to come up in any meaningful way in my games.

Never used items with set DCs. Never will I ever touch items with set DCs as I do not wish to be stuck in the loop of liking items then it becomes useless then I see it then buy a new one and repeat. It feels sooooooo useless to me.

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Also... Banana phone.

Take-a-look o' sire
Your market's all on fire
Ashes! Ashes!
All across the town!

The King has sent his daughter
To fetch a pail of water
Ashes! Ashes!
All across the town!

Fire burns the thatches
Pockets full of matches
Ashes! Ashes!
All across the town!

etc

99 phials of fuel from the haul, 99 phials of fuel

hear that sound? burn it all down!

98 phials of fuel from the haul!

Just as a heads up, the actual scaling of DCs by level "skips" levels every so often.
So this formula to +1 for each gap level does help, but all item DCs would still fall behind. This could be seen as an issue, or a good thing to encourage upgrades (but that's often not possible).

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2627

It looks like these DCs are skipped:

17, 21, 25, 29, 33, 37,
and last that should be player relevant is DC 41 being lost between levels 20 & 21.

So exequiel759's mention of looking at the base item's "On level DC comparison" to then apply to the scaled level is the best for being accurate.

Basically, look at your item and compare to that chart. If it's +1 for it's base level, than it should always be +1 for its scaled level.

It falling behind is intentional, I mathed it out to ensure higher tier versions usually give a boost in accuracy at minimum.

A level 7 item has a ~35% chance to land against an at-level enemy at level 20. A level 17 item has a ~55% chance.

35% is a hail mary, 55% might be worth the actions.

If Shifter gets spell slots, it's already failed.

Justnobodyfqwl wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Individual responses to everyone

To be honest man, if you can argue against everyone in the entire thread at once like this, I don't really know what anyone is supposed to do to change your mind. Do you, like, WANT to argue about it? Or do you think someone has an answer that will satisfy you, and it just hasn't been said yet?

Making controversial topics and then argueing them to death seems to be one of RD's favorite pasttimes.

To be fair, sometimes it feels like Ravingdork is carrying forum engagement on his back.

Auto succeeding on an athletics maneuver against a foe is like finding out a cheat code. It's such a rush to be able to bully enemies with impunity.

It's a great tool for a smaller party. It's easy to fall behind in skills when you only have 3 non-skill-monkies in a party.

I would like to point out that "upgrading to level appropriate DC at an appropriate gold cost" has it's own issues. It's a bunch of annoying book keeping just to make items not suck, doesn't help in low down time situations, and still frequently results in unsatisfying stories. It makes loot sheets not only a list of expiry dates, it also asks you to reup your subscription to keep using them.

I recommend the [New DC] = [Old DC] + [Char Level - Item Level].

Then warn players not to try to cheese old low cost items.

The lack of 1h weapons is bizarre.

Designated Operative Rifle
Range: 100, 1d10P, Deadly D6, Volley 30ft, Unwieldy, Tech, Magazine: 5, Expand: 1

Not yet familiar with the feel of SF2 weapon balance, but this statline doesn't seem out of place to me.

I think it turned out quite well, especially as a base class that beginner players will be interacting with.

An area weapon that can shoot farther than you can throw things by hand.

Come on, be realistic

I'm just now building my first operative sniper in response to the comments about sniping in SF2e.

Am I doing the math right here?

A Commercial Assassin Rifle in the first range increment does 1d10 + 1 Kickback + 1d4 precision damage from aim, for a total of 3 to 15 points of damage.

On a crit hit vs a target that is off guard, a Commercial Assassin Rifle in the first range increment does (1d12 + 1 Kickback + 1 precision damage from Backstabber + 1d4 precision damage from aim) X2 +1d12 Fatal damage, for a total of 9 to 48 points of damage.

If this is right, then it looks like the sniper operative is all about setting up the perfect shot. To get the off-guard condition on the target will likely take teamwork. Off-guard only gives you +2 damage on a crit, but also lowers the target's AC by -2, which helps getting the crit.

Since real snipers normally work in teams of 2, sometimes 3. I'm thinking of making a sniper support character. I don't think a spotter makes sense in SF2e, but someone who can debuff the target, and or help get or keep them in line of sight, and help get them the off-guard condition. I suppose a spotter could be someone who buffs the sniper, and or uses the Aid another action. So maybe the best way to play a sniper is in a team of 3, the sniper, someone focused on debuffing the target, and someone focused on buffing the sniper. The buffer could also use spells to change the sniper's damage type or help boost the damage.

I have an animal instinct barbarian shirren with Eager Assistant. I also have a Sniper Specialization operative on my team. I am planning on doing some combination of bite, grab, and aid. I'm really wondering what's the optimal combo.

Signed up for the Starfinder 2E Core Rulebook subscription back in mid-July, but this is still sitting in my sidecart. I reached out to CS 3 days ago, but still haven't gotten a reply. I'm fine waiting, but I'd appreciate a response.

I'm not customer service, but my assumption is that you missed the window for the regular Player Core shipment, and thus your sidecarted items are waiting for the regular scheduled shipment for GM Core. I am also in the same situation, but I half-expected it given my prior experience with subscriptions.

I haven't seen it mathed out, and I'd like to see someone do some detailed round by round math before making statements like it does less damage. I'm not the math guy, but it seems like sniper crits are massive and there are a surprising number of damage bonuses (kickback, sniper critical specialization, backstabber, fatal/deadly). Doesn't seem straightforward to me, especially with how few directly comparable weapons there are.

You son of a lich, I'm in.

For what it's worth, during the playtest I gave players plenty of Pathfinder weapons with grades, it worked fine. As long as it's in line with ABP it's no big deal.

The contemplative is all about the brain. The tiny eyestalks that should hang out somewhere around the neck do not equate to a face, and shouldn't be were you would default to focusing for characterization. Doing so kind of misses the point. This is likely why the art neglects adding the eyes from the description.

Most other characters aren't depicted with their head gear active. I think it's fine to just assume a hardlight shield covers their brains.

I played a mystic who threw on resist elements and walked around a laser shootout impervious to harm, being able to regenerate more innately per round than all the enemies focus firing could get through.

There are a lot of situations where that HP pool makes you more survivable than the game necessarily expects.

I think the HP reduction is an attempt to make it feel a tad bit more even.

Really looking forward to finding out more about the project and team! I hope they don't make the mistake of launching the Kickstarter without building up to it on the youtube/reddit interview circuit.

moosher12 wrote:

And lastly, Vanguard is probably not gonna be a Vanguard perse. Frankly, it's name is misleading, and will become especially misleading when Pathfinder classes join the mix, as vanguard does little to invoke its actual abilities. So it would likely be due for a name change. I vote Entropath.

To be truthful, this is part of the reason why Vanguard never "clicked" with me in 1e. It felt like the entropy-related aspects were just kind of "there" in the class without clear guidance on their place within the setting apart from the villain-coded Ataxxea. Were you supposed to be spiritual as a Vanguard? No clue, the class text didn't really offer an opinion the way it did for Solarians. It felt redundant with Solarians narratively and felt like it was more interested in its mechanical role of "tank class" than it was in its narrative role of "empowered by entropy."

Obviously this is more a failure of imagination on my part, because the class seemed to be very popular from my admittedly limited experience, but I just could never really come up with character concepts whose narratives would be best served by being a vanguard...

Same. Vanguard was a giant set of off-putting mistakes to me.

I could easily see something similar mechanically and flavor-wise show up as a Solarian class archetype. Hopefully the name can be reclaimed by a more fitting class fantasy.

Here's one that gets me, though it's more a mechanical frustration than a flavor one (though it also hits flavor too).

Three enemies standing next to each other you have 5 bullets in your gun. You can't autofire unless you can reposition yourself such that one enemy is out of the cone.

Let me introduce you to a little thing called "lying to your GM" /s

But seriously that scenario came up a few times in playtesting and it was THE WORST

Otherwise, it seems weird that you could fire at an enemy for free except if you're aware of its existence.

You're firing an extra bullet for every target. Just justify it as one of those hitting them.

It's really not very hard to sweep under the rug. Much easier than, say, robots and undead being susceptible to diseases.

I'm actually REALLY surprised this is the one that gets you.

I like that it retains the ability to throttle back the amount of ammo spent depending on number of targets. Feels right.

I'd be fine letting a player expend ammo based on the number of targets they intend to hit, and letting the allies and unknown invisible enemies in the area get hit for "free".

I HAVE THE PDF!

Ladies and gentlemen, we have the pdf

Speculation, but I feel like art issues crop up more with Starfinder due to the pool of proven ttrpg artists who have experience with making scifi/modern artwork being quite small.

I've definitely seen a lot of commissioned artwork yoinking gun and ship designs from anywhere they can.

Pretty unfortunate to see.

I seem to recall prior releases being opened for sale closer to noon on the day. Gotta get coffee and have some meetings before pressing the button!

My definition of a shifter is a martial class that is encouraged to take on different forms to suit different tasks inside and outside of combat. They should be a dynamic, bag-of-tricks class with utility and skill challenge tools rivaling casters.

I think taking on a single form and staying in it is better handled by other options. For example, an animal instinct barbarian can already be very closely flavored that way.

I think shapeshifting into other humanoids is fine, but shouldn't be the focus. I think the priority should be to enable becoming: animals > elementals > monsters/creatures > other humanoids.

Was there something beyond the binarian counting down in binary?

WatersLethe wrote:

Just curious, if I added a Starfinder 2e subscription mid-July and I got Battlecry from my Pathfinder subscription delivered already, did my Starfinder books get sidecarted for a ~September delivery?

That's right on the cusp, so I'm not sure off hand, but if you reach out to Customer Service, they can let you know!

I'll probably just buy another at a FLGS on release day.

I'm gonna be out here stuffing SF2 books into peoples' hands like warm bowls of food at a soup kitchen.

Just curious, if I added a Starfinder 2e subscription mid-July and I got Battlecry from my Pathfinder subscription delivered already, did my Starfinder books get sidecarted for a ~September delivery?

What I would like to see in a Shifter class: starting perhaps with the ability to manifest a shape's natural weapons (e.g. claws for a Big Cat shifter), then adding at higher levels the ability to shift into that shape, then later more shapes ending with four or five different shapes from, well, the entire Bestiary. :-)

I'd like Paizo to attempt giving the class a full shapeshift from level 1. I don't want to have to play as an animal instinct barbarian for the first few levels until I have earned the right to play a shifter.

The creator of Pathbuilder has Starbuilder on the roadmap for October

8th level is probably a bad comparison since the comparison of SF2e ranged meta and PF2e was in SF2e 1st level character can fly.

I wouldn't expect a Bulette to be using a gun any more than I would a Rancor from Star Wars. If you want a shoot-out with guns, you don't need monstrous aliens or PF2e creatures; you need intelligent opponents armed with guns (NPCs with bad attitudes)

Looking at 1st-level creatures in the Monster Core, you have lots of the low-level base creature stats for intelligent PF2E ancestries and species. Give them a laser gun, and there you go, they fit into a SF2e ranged fight.

There are plenty of uses for monstrous aliens or PF2e creatures in SF2e. But a ranged-only shootout is not one of them.

I've used so many shortbo- I mean gun, definitely gun- wielding statblocks already

Only 8 days remain... what happed to days after that? If Zoken stops counting, will we even have days after that? Will this become a new adventure "A Cosmic Countdown"? or will this be the end of Days...

Now that the question is asked, I think our safest course of action is to enshrine Zoken inside a Golden Throne, keep him from ever tasting the sweet release of death by any fel means necessary, and ensure that he never. stops. counting.