Shinigami02's page

Ravingdork wrote:

Squark wrote:

Unlike property runes, fundamental runes are considered a single item. That's why property runes get called out as different on page 61 of the GM core.

Interesting.

So could my champion sorcerer get, say, a +3 major striking staff of arcane might and still have it treated as a single item?

Staff of Arcane Might is a special item, meaning you would have to pay for the increased fundamental runes separately. This rule only applies to basic equipment, like Longswords and Full Plate.

Theoretically you could (GM permitting) do it with 2 items and some of the Pocket Change though. One item for a +3 Major Striking weapon, one item for the Staff of Arcane Might, then pay the Rune Transfer fees and say you did the transfer with downtime before joining the party.

Or just go for the classic "Oops, that was a load-bearing wall. The entire dungeon starts collapsing on top of you and you take..." /rolls an arbitrarily large number of dice "...enough damage to kill you."

This game has a level 9 spell, Atomic Blast, it is quite literally dropping a Nuke but as a spell. It deals a total of 10d12 damage, for an average of 65 damage, and being a level 9 spell is generally first available at level 17.

A Vesk Soldier who went hard on Con (Every possible bonus at level 1, one bonus at every advancement level, and possibly an Artificial Immortalizer since they're a level 17 item) has a total of 282 HP (10 Ancestral, 170 Soldier, 102 Con Bonus). And as we know, you are operating at full effectiveness until you lose your last Hit Point. So, even assuming they Fail (but don't Crit Fail) every save, this Vesk can, on average, take four nukes to the face without even being slowed down.

Heck, a Skittermander (6 Ancestral HP) Operative (8 HP/Level) with a moderate +2 Con, at level 17 will have 176 HP, and with the higher Dex focus of an Operative will be a lot more likely to pass the Atomic Blast Reflex save for half damage. But even still can take two nukes to the face without slowing down. Three if they succeed even a single save.

So what's Starfinder's justification for why Melee is still viable in a sci-fi setting? Because your bullets won't stop them getting to you.

Personally I love Dubious Knowledge, and don't know why people have such an issue with it. Like, the simplest and easiest way to deal with it is take an actual piece of info and just... hotswap it. Like a White Dragon's infamous weakness to ice-shattering Bludgeoning damage. Or tossing out an incorrect save information, like the spindly Wyvern's horrible Fortitude, or how a Cave Giant's sheer stubbornness makes trying to break its Will a foolhardy exercise. Bonus points if the thing you're swapping in is the exact opposite of reality (but is still believable, people are unlikely to believe a White Dragon is weak to Ice). Or if you want to be creative then do so, like just "give" the thing an ability it doesn't have but looks like it could, like an Adult Red Dragon's hooking jaws making it easy to swallow targets whole, or a Cloud Dragon's natural ability to call forth Lightning Bolt spells akin to the bolts of the storms it lives in.

As a personal anecdote, GM once used the hotswap on me to devastating effect when my Dubious Knowledge told me about how a particular fungus reacted poorly to Fire. Turns out Fire made it expel spores explosively, and it was *Cold* it was weak to.

That said, if it's not your cup of tea, just tell your players so. Good players will probably be okay with it. Rule 0 is what it is for a reason after all.

Don't have a lot of skin in this game (I tend to play more human-esque ancestries), but just wanted to throw an observation or two in:

A quirk of the Active Hands setting is that it actually allows a level 18+ Soldier Skittermander to hold more weapons than if all hands were active at once. Thanks to Damoritosh's Grip's wording Explicitly only allowing you to wield one two-handed Melee weapon in one hand and one two-handed Area or Automatic weapon in the other, if you could use all of your hands at once you would either have to forego using anything in your other hands at all, or ignore this feat. With this method though, you can hold three two-handed melee weapons (say, a Slashing one, a Piercing one, and a Bludgeoning one) each in one hand, and three two-handed Area/Automatic ranged weapons (say, a Fire one, a Cold one, and an Electric one) in the other three, and since there's no rule against Holding a two-handed weapon in one hand, and you'd only ever be Wielding one of each at a time, you could technically be battle-ready with 6 two-handed weapons at once, compared to the max 3 you could get without this combo.

Not that that's intended to be a selling point, again just an observation.

Now for an observation on "but what actually happens if they can just use all their arms" because I just wanted to experiment:

From personal testing, looking at a single round, when dealing with two-handed Unwieldy weapons that aren't Area weapons (and thus don't need the extra action to use), even with all hands available a 4-armed Kasatha's advantage over a 2-armed Human basically comes down to just the flexibility of their third action. Both can attack with 2 Unwieldy weapons each turn, the Human just has to spend an action to swap in the middle while the Kasatha could just hold them both and have their third action free. The real... quirkiness comes in when you get to 6+ (like the Skittermander) as they can now wield 3 Unwieldy weapons at once and fire all 3 each turn. That said... if you use ranged Unwieldy weapons (e.g. Snipers) this does not hold true across more than one round.

Once you have more than 1 round, assuming your goal is just unload as many bullets into the enemy as possible, the two-handed human basically just matches the Kasatha the first round, then basically just spends every turn reloading and shooting their one weapon, with one spare action for... whatever. At this point swapping is a waste of time, because unless they basically spend an entire turn to reload a weapon, swap without firing it, then reload the other weapon (or have some other action economy compressor, e.g. Instant Reload), they would just swap into an empty weapon. Meanwhile across a 4-round cycle the Kasatha and Skittermander even out, spending half the time firing and half the time reloading. In fact, if anything the Kasatha might actually be better off than the Skittermander here, since they would functionally have two attacks and 1 reload per turn, never dealing with worse than -5, while the Skittermander would alternate 1 turn of full/-5/-10, and 1 turn of just reloading.

Now when it comes to Melee Unwieldy weapons (of which there is currently only the Doshko), Human with 2 Doshkos will always match Kasatha with 2 Doshkos in attacks (though the Kasatha can move if need be) while the Skittermander can literally just be a blender, constantly whirling their three Doshkos every round. Yes the third attack is at -10, but even -10 attacks can hit sometimes, and when they do that's an extra d12 with full Strength hit on the enemy. And if they do need to move or something... they're still just as effective as the Kasatha, and have that mobility over the Human.

---

All that out of the way though, I do support either the "pick your active arms each turn" or "1/turn can swap arms as a Free Action", and would also support making "All Hands on Deck" be usable once per ten minutes (aka, 1/encounter usually) rather than 1/day. And allowing spare hands to do simple check-less actions (e.g. opening doors, retrieving items, and all the other stuff that prehensile extra limbs can already do in PF1e).

Also would support a specific Multi-Armed Combat Archetype, allowing stuff like just unleashing with every weapon you're wielding (possibly as a Cone attack like I swear was a feat in SF1e, or possibly just as a 3-action Flurry on a single target... though that might be limited to 4 guns rather than "All Guns" just to keep it a bit more balanced across all comers).

Also supporting additional limb augments. Bonus points if it's not limited to "hands". Let me have my artificial prehensile tails dang it. Even if it isn't a fully functional limb but just like PF2e's Prehensile Tails, I just want my tail grafts....

The ritual takes a day, in my game anyone who decides to wish for divinity is going to have the most powerful servitors of others gods coming to say hello during the 24 hours you have to perform this ritual.

And honestly, with Wish being a rare ritual, I'm just not going to let players access it all honesty. Or outright tell them that certain kinds of wishes, like divinity, are more likely to get them killed before the wish can be completed.

It's purely DM fiat territory.

Honestly, attempting to Wish for Divinity seems like the kind of thing that would get you Achaekek's attention, one of his big things is Gatekeeping Divinity. And to quote his Major Curse from Gods and Magic, well...

The Mantis God doesn’t waste his time toying with or tormenting those who truly anger him, or those who dare to consider themselves divine. He rips open a portal to your location, kills you, drags your soul to judgment in a way that prevents resurrection magic, and then leaves.

Emphasis mine. Unless you've got another Deity sponsoring you or something, you're probably not making it that full day...

Okay, I'm confused. So We Can make so many items per day. Then we also have versatile vials which can make so many items/ 10 minute rest, then we also have some spammable vials?

If you want to think of it another way, think of Alchemist like a caster.

Each morning you can pre-make X many items during Daily Prep (don't have the text, so with the changes to General Crafting IDK if you need to have the Recipe in your book or not for these). These are full potency items, all the bells and whistles, full durations, etc. These are your Spell Slots.

Then you have your Versatile Vials, which regen 2 every ten minutes. These can be used on the fly to create any item in your recipe book (spellbook), but it has to be used by the start of your next turn, and if the effect has a long duration that duration caps at 10 minutes. These are your Focus Spells.

Then you have the Quick Alchemy instant Vials. These are infinite, but have to be used by the end of the turn they're created, and can only be used for either really basic bombs or your Field's unique ability. These are your Cantrips.

And then there's the secret fourth option, items you spend downtime and money to Craft. These last forever, function at full potency, may or may not be limited to their Item DCs (depending on how things get phrased), etc. These are your Scrolls.

I didn't remember to get this into the survey, but hopefully other people mention it: free actions without triggers wait until the character's turn to activate under baseline rules; if the Commander granted free actions are meant to trigger on the Commander's action, then they need reference to the Commander's action being the trigger. And if not, that needs to be more clear in the class/feature description.

Given it's not their own thing giving them the Free Action, but someone else actively giving them the ability to take the Free Action, that probably innately counts as the Trigger. Which to be fair has Precedent going all the way back to the original PF2e CRB, with Liberator Champions' Liberating Step. Unless you'd argue that doesn't let the ally Step when it goes off, and instead they have to wait for their turn, in which case... I think you're the minority opinion on that one.

Now I really want to combine the recent Awakened Animal Ancestry and the new Swash Style to have my very own Rascally Rabbit character.

Okay, I know the correct term is Charge, but I misremembered it once as Ward (like Robin (all however many of them there are at this point, and the other sidekicks for that matter) is Batman's Ward) and now that's just stuck in my head.

So, to sum things up really quickly: Bodyguard is cool. Mobile Protection is even cooler (and a nice answer to the 15-foot radius of Champion's Reactions). Only ever being able to have 1 ally you can actually move to cover, with a 10-minute time to change which ally that is is less cool. It basically means the entire party has to be bunched up on you except that one special someone, or you just can't use your main feature.

So the easiest way around this would be to just separate Mobile Protection from Bodyguard, and just make it a thing you can do any time you Intercept Strike (kinda like Get Behind Me! has). But that's also kind of the too-easy answer, and still leaves Bodyguard itself super limited in usability. So I figure my alternative would be to just upgrade Bodyguard (either as part of the feat itself, or a later follow-up) so that you can just designate more than one Ward at a time. When? Well personally I'd probably go for level 8 (same time as when Group Taunt comes online, so you can favor either drawing more ire or guarding more allies. Kinda fits with the whole "Offensive vs Defensive" lean of the Threat Techniques even.)

I mean, I'm pretty sure it's Canon (or at least used to be) that dragons can reproduce with anything, even better than humans can, I think because of their magical nature. Pretty sure that would easily extend to other variants of dragons.

Would even be a fun way to introduce an unexpected twist to an otherwise straightforward encounter if it pulled out a surprise ability from a different type of dragon.

An Adventurer? No. A single Adventurer isn't a problem for a dragon, usually. That said, you rarely encounter just a single Adventurer, they're pack hunters. And a full pack of Adventurers fell Dragons all the time.

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

I'm gonna respectfully disagree, actually! It would be terrible for ramming things as big as you, but if you're a dragon, you're probably mostly aiming for littler creatures, and your main problem is going to be aiming that big horn of yours. A long neck gives you more maneuverability.

Although, most creatures with horns don't use them for hunting. They use them for defense and fighting others of their kind for territory and mates.

TBF the same thing that makes it better for hunting smaller creatures also makes it ideal for self defense for a dragon. After all, a dragon's greatest natural predator is Adventurers, who tend to generally be size Medium. Lot more likely to need to fight a pack of those than another Horned Dragon.

So I just got Isekai'd to our favorite (maybe second favorite for some, depends on how attached you are to Earth) Death World, Golarion. Dunno how much of a Character Creator Truck-kun gives, but yeah.

First thing I do is check my body. If I'm still human, that's lame, but if I have any influence, hoping for Kitsune. Probably Celestial Envoy for memes (it's an Isekai), probably getting Fox Fire for starting Ancestry Feat.

Second thing I'm doing is testing if I have any Magical ability, because it's that kind of world and I want magic. Stat-wise I'm an Int Main, Dex Secondary, and personality tests tend to tell me I'm a Wizard. But the thing is... I'm also experienced with blades (I have a whole collection of swords at home, and while I'm mostly self-taught, I feel like I have at least the very basics down) so instead I'm going Magus. A weird Magus that has Int higher than Dex, but still a Magus. For reasons that will come up later, specifically Starlit Span Magus. And, because I loathe normal Prepared Casting, I'll gladly sacrifice my level 2 feat for Flexible Spellcasting.

So I have my foxy body, I have magic, I even have martial proficiency. Next, of course, is starting skills. Of course, as I landed as a Magus, I automatically get some basic insight into Arcana. Carrying over my IRL skills, Stealth and Deception are my two strongest skills, I've got a fair bit of experience in various types of Crafting (and Theoretical Knowledge for more, but not the facilities to actually apply them), and some basic functional knowledge in Survival techniques. Knowing me, any spare Skill slots after that are probably getting dumped into (seemingly) random Lores.

Now I have my self, I have my class, I have my skills, time to actually start living. Very first task... is shift into Tailless form, don't know how accepting people would be of a Kitsune right off the bat, we can ease them into that later. Then, after getting my bearings, is finding the closest town. There I will do whatever I can to try to get an apprenticeship with the local blacksmith. Assuming I can succeed at this (hey, you roll that die enough times you're bound to get a nat 20 eventually... right?) this gives me a source of income, and hopefully a roof and possibly even some food. Don't want the apprentice dying after all. But most importantly, it gives me access to a forge... and I'll need that for... reasons.

See, I mentioned I have theoretical knowledge of some crafting stuff, but not the facilities to practice it. One of those, is blacksmithing, which I will be working into trying to get the apprenticeship. Another is at least the basics of mechanisms, which blacksmithing tends to go hand-in-hand with. The last... is more Alchemy, than Blacksmithing, and relatedly my level 2 Skill Feat is probably going into Alchemical Crafting. Specifically though, I have at least basic knowledge of the ingredients of Gunpowder. I also am a massive Final Fantasy nerd, and have Isekai-meta knowledge of certain Uncommon weapons in Golarion. And I now have access to a Forge. You can probably see where this is going now, and might understand why I went Starlit Span. Three Words: Gunblade Red Mage. My Dex focus will keep me restricted to either the Dagger Pistol or the Rapier Pistol unfortunately... but then I always preferred the one-handed Gunblades anyways, and if I make my Dagger Pistol a little bit... larger... than normal, well, that's just aesthetics right? It's not like I'm going full Arming Sword (Longsword) with it, just maybe to Short Sword-like proportions. I'd say I'd probably Forge myself some nice armor, but unfortunately the metal armors tend to be Medium Armor, I'm not sure my Strength is as high as 14 (12 maybe, but probably not 14), and I'm not sure I'll have time to reach level 5 to bump it up. And leatherworking is not really one of the Craftings I have much knowledge for, so I'd have to find a teacher to learn that, as well as getting all the materials for it... it's honestly probably easier to just buy some Light Armor at that point. Besides, being the Final Fantasy nut, how can I not go for a nice suit of Buckle Armor.

So now I've got my Self, my Magic, my Gunblade, and some Armor. Now it's just a matter of living well as a Blacksmith, and keeping my gear close at hand until the inevitable Plot catches up to me. After all, I got Isekai'd, there's no way I'm not now a Major Character in some Major Plotline, and the Plot will always eventually come knocking.

So for Primal dragons we now have the bestial Horned Dragons, and the rocky/metallic Adamantine Dragons previewed back in January. And if we look back at Bestiary 2 (or B4 for PF1e if you really want the origins) we have the Zomok (canonically a Dragon in PF2e), so truly we have Primal Dragons for all 3 starting options of 20 Questions: Animal, Vegetable, and Mineral.

Corruption, in our Golarion?! Why I never. We just have...

And that's just to name a few. So yeah... maybe we have a little bit.

Seriously, Skittertech Scattergun sounds cool, but a scattergun is a category, not an weapon name. It also does nothing for world building, or context. Who makes scatterguns? Why are the all the same? There is a game called Crying suns, it has robots that make everything. People can't make stuff. That would then make sense. Every scattergun is just a 'scattergun' as they are all made by the same 3D printer. I doubt this is the same situation in Starfinder. Unless I missed a chapter where Triune took over manufacturing.

The thing here is, at least as I understand SF1e (having mostly interacted early in the lifecycle, maybe things changed over time), is you actually pretty much answered your own questions with the latter half of that first sentence. "...scattergun is a category, not an weapon name."

You have your weapon, which is a weapon of x category, and then the details are up to you and the GM. Take your basic Utility Scattergun. Maybe it's a Human Shotgun, Maybe it's a Vesk Scaleburster, maybe it's an Abadar Corp Pellet-hurler 9000, heck maybe it's a Skittertech Skitterscatterer. Each of which has their own unique design aesthetic, unique firing mechanisms, unique sights and stocks and what have you. But ultimately, they all will roughly hold 4 shells, and deal an approximate 1d4 damage in a 15 foot cone. That spec is what gets it added to the general category of Utility Scattergun, so you know what you're dealing with when you're considering weapons. So why do all of these manufacturers, from various different cultures, all produce very different guns that ultimately have the same basic stats? Because book space is at a premium, and "here's the basic stats, you and your GM can come up with the aesthetics yourself" takes up a lot less book space than a dozen/hundred/thousand guns that are only minor variations on the same theme.

So, just from a personal view, I think a good way to figure out what makes a magic, is to look at what gives Arcane magic. Now obviously there's the easy looks (Wizard and Magus) which I'll come back to in a second, but first I want to look at the Pick-a-List casters (at least as we have them right now, just because that's what's available), Sorcerer, Summoner, and Witch.

Starting with Witch, because at the moment it has the least routes to Arcane magic. The Arcane Patron Theme for the current Witch is the Rune theme. Sigils, Symbols, Tomes and Texts, Words and Wisdom. Okay, that's one datapoint.

Then we can look at the Sorcerer. Now, I'm gonna set aside Draconic for the moment, because that feels mostly a legacy thing, and we also already know Dragons are going multi-Traditional in the Remaster anyways. So that leaves us with Imperial from the CRB, and Genie from the APG. Imperial is your ancestor mastered magic, and you inherited their ability. And then Genies are notoriously the Wishcrafters (though I'm not sure how well that's gonna carry over in the Remaster, but again going by what we have right now). Anything you want, but it must be in the form of a verbal wish. Even a couple of the PreMaster Genie Bloodline's focus spells directly reference Wishing.

And finally we have the Summoner. Again, setting aside Dragons, that leaves us with only one Arcane source: the Construct Eidolon, Magically Empowered Machinery. Gears and Pistons, Wiring, or some other form of mechanism given life.

So what am I getting at? Well, the Summoner and Witch both have Arcane granting options that are very Structural, very Mechanical. Sorcerer might be a bit of an oddball, but then again, Genies are most known for a very structured form of magic (it must be a Wish, which itself requires a specific set of trigger words to happen), and while it's just one interpretation Imperial would be the best bloodline to represent something along the lines of a "Seventh Son of a Seventh Son" situation, as well as family trees themselves being, ya know, pretty rigid. I don't think Imperial bloodlines show up in adopted children very much.

And then we have the Wizard and Magus themselves. Magi conjure their magic through martial arts, up to and including channeling the magic straight up through their weapons. And Wizards quite literally attend schools to learn specific forms of magic, the most structured way to learn spellcasting.

So in conclusion: To me, Arcane Magic is the Tradition of Magic through Structure. Occult Casters typically pull on the power of superstition, the power of the unknowable, in a way they could be seen as pulling on the power of Belief. This works because the stories say it will work, or (in the case of Psychics) because I believe it will work and my Mind can manipulate reality. Divine Casters are frequently granted their power by another being, and even when they're not they are still generally tapping the Domains, the Concept of something, to draw on their power. Primal Casters channel the ambient energy of the Planes, frequently the Elemental ones, or the Forge or Void, conducting that raw energy into someone. Arcane Casters though...

As someone else said, Arcane Casters are the Casters of Mind and Material. They pull a little bit of the Tradition Occult uses, and a bit of the ambient Planar Power that Primal are tapping, and they shape it through developed, tried and tested structural forms to create the desired effect. They know that if you draw out this sequence of runes, pull on this thread of reality with this amount of force at this angle, or say this line of Old Diabolic with just this accent, it'll produce this desired ball of flame that far away in that direction. But it doesn't do that just because they believe it will hard enough like an Occult caster, oh no. It has been tried and tested, over and over, by many generations before them. And if you don't draw that rune just right, if your angle is a little off, if you pronounced it LeviosAh instead of LeviOhsa, well, the power just won't come. And that's why not just anyone can be an Arcane Caster, you need that eye for detail, and the memory for all the minor minutiae to make sure you get everything exactly right.

And then Magi are Arcane Casters, because see, Martial Arts are also actually very structural. A couple degrees off in your stance could be the difference between that blow deflecting off your sword, or sliding down into your arm. The difference between your own blow landing in the shoulder or the neck. Not that big a leap from their to adding in strikes that draw the right runes, a stance that draws those threads of reality with you, a battlecry invoking the right term as you swing, bringing those desired effects into your blow. Magi are likely going to be using a lot of particular fighting styles blended with particular casting styles for their blending.

If you'd rather have a more loose style, the idea that surely something about this fighting style is going to invoke the right magic... that sounds like an Occult angle, might I introduce you the Thaumaturge whose effects work because they can will it into being hard enough. Or if you really just want to have faith that you will be enough of a Hero, might we direct you instead to the Champion for that true Faith-based fighting. Or maybe the Exemplar if you have more faith in your own ability than the Gods. Or maybe the Monk if you want less Hero and more Spiritual. And if you just want to take Raw Magical Power and use that to blow people away, that sounds like you want to be Primal, so for you we have the Kineticist. But the Magus is the one who has Trained in their arts of magic and war both, perfected the details of each, until they can blend the structure of Arcane Magic and the precision of the Warrior.

Kinda reminds me of a character I had back when Inventor was in playtest. I'm expecting/hoping Human with Mixed Ancestry Amurrun or Kitsune will be a new alternative for my catgirl/foxgirl needs than the old Versatile Human > Adopted Ancestry hack I used then. Heck, maybe even get really crazy and do Human with MA Kobold for some Dragon Girl shenanigans, especially if I go Dragon Disciple for eventual proper wings...

Edit: The lore would be... interesting... to justify, but Human + Leshy = Makeshift Dryad Aesthetics.

I have a lore question. How can a leshy be a grimspawn?

Besides the options others have already mentioned, what is a Leshy at their core?

Leshies are immortal spirits of nature temporarily granted a physical form. Leshies are “born” when a skilled druid or other master of primal magic conducts a ritual to create a suitable vessel, and then a spirit chooses that vessel to be their temporary home.

So going off that, say a Druid changed the ritual ever so slightly, infusing the vessel with just a touch of Abaddon, so instead of a Nature spirit hopping in, instead a Daemon did. This could be intentional (an evil and heretical Druid spreading Daemonic corruption, or even a less-villainous Druid using the Leshy ritual to seal a Daemon away in a form where it would forget its nature) or unintentional (an arrogant but unskilled young Druid trying a ritual far outside their skill level, and screwing it up in just the wrong way). Either way though, you could still wind up with a Leshy, but one with Daemonic energy infusing it. AKA a Grimspawn Leshy.

That's the fun thing about stuff like this, you can create your own stories for it, and with enough creativity anything can be made to sound lore-plausible.

Also, RE: whether or not Artificial Nephilim are a thing or not... Not necessarily the same thing but there was at one point a book (can't remember which off-hand, just that it was a thing) that mentioned experiments with fusing fire elementals and human souls resulting in artificial Naari, which is a concept that I've used for a character (planning on rebuilding her in PF2e at some point), so if it works for the Elemental planes why not the Outer Planes?

It may not work for everyone, but as someone who works better in mechanics than storytelling and is obsessed with PF2e's variety of Ancestries, I follow what I call an ACDC system (in part because lol-references). Ancestry, Class, Details (Background, Feats, Gear, Skills, etc), Completion (Name, Token, other minor details like that). Ancestry defines who they are, Class defines what they do, then I basically flop between the various Details in whatever order (usually around here is where I actually attach a story to the build), then finish with the finishing details like a name (usually the last thing I add).

ETA: Also I say Token falls under Completion, but as someone who does online games, I have an entire folder of character art that is often enough part of what defines an Ancestry for a character.

Heck, I'm pretty sure having access to all Elemental spells regardless of originating Tradition was the point of Elementalist getting its own spell list in the first place.

Critically, even if they go that route, the oracle isn't any degree of god and they also have close to no control over the matter. There doesn't even have to be a god involved, divine power can come from any outsider. Then there is the whole crippling curse thing. Comparing that to the Exemplar claiming a divine domain at the start of their entire career is a stretch.

The two narratives are night and day.

Splitting up because a good amount to say here.

"they also have close to no control over the matter."

Says who? "Mortal who reached out and grasped a Primordial Divine Essence, with intentions of Ascending" seems just as valid an Oracle backstory as anything, and if anything seems like it would fit well with the source of their power being (again, this is a direct quote as a potential source of the Oracle's Mystery feature) "a direct and dangerous conduit to raw divine power".

"There doesn't even have to be a god involved, divine power can come from any outsider."

There doesn't even have to be an outsider involved. Again, I quote "a direct and dangerous conduit". Emphasis mine this time. Oracles tapping directly into the Divine Juice that Gods themselves pull from is as valid as one being bestowed their power by a God or lesser Outsider.

"Then there is the whole crippling curse thing."

Well yeah Oracles get more backlash. They're pulling Reality Warping levels of power through their conduit (again, 10th-level casting), the Exemplar's getting some fancy toys and maybe a little juicing. If anything this brand of Oracle is coming closer to God-like power.

"Comparing that to the Exemplar claiming a divine domain at the start of their entire career is a stretch."

Exemplar, level 2 feat: "While domain spells usually come from a deity, you’ve learned to tap the properties of your own divine spark to manifest domain magic."

Meanwhile the Oracle (who again can by RAW be tapping a direct conduit to raw divine power) can manifest that same level of Domain magic right out of the gate, and with their level 2 feat can do the same thing with a second Domain. The only difference is that Oracle is forced to be on theme while Exemplars can pull any domains, but frankly I'd be as disappointed in Exemplars who ignore their own thematics in the name of just power-building as much as I would be seeing the same thing from any other class.

So in conclusion...

The two narratives are night and day.

I disagree.

ETA: On revisiting the text again, the class description of Oracle also mentions Circumventing the Gods, Oracle's Divine Spellcasting feature states clearly that their power comes directly from their Mystery, and the first line of Mystery (so just before the second line I've been quoting part of) explicitly states that "An oracle wields divine power, but not from a single divine being" so it's definitely not just being fed to them by "an outsider" as you implied being an option in your second sentence.

Unfortunately as both would be applying Resistance to a single source of damage they don't stack, you just apply the higher one (which at 2+Champion's Level would be the Champion's Reaction). That said, if the 2+Champion's Level is enough to negate, since the Reaction explicitly gave you Resistance, that should still meet the "your resistance would be enough to reduce the damage dealt to 0" clause, but that's still not particularly likely.

And if that was all there is to it I wouldn't be worried. That is an awesome backstory and theme. But having your innate divine angel (or in this case demon) power isn't even close to having your own divine god power.

...

The difference is purely one of degree and I don't see how that doesn't make a difference. If one person is framed as tapping a decent size generator and the other their personal nuclear reactor, how is that not significant?

Counterpoint: Oracle, a common class, as described in the APG (and honestly I'm hoping they don't actually get rid of this in the Rework, it's actually one of my favorite bits of flavor from Oracle): Legitimately the second sentence of the Mystery feature lists "a direct and dangerous conduit to raw divine power" as a potential source of their magic. Now maybe it's just me, but this seems like basically the exact same thing as the Exemplar's Divine Spark is providing. It's just rather than getting phenomenal cosmic power (10th-level casting) but with some drawbacks (a curse) like the Oracle, their channel just gives them some relatively smaller perks (Body Ikon) and conducts the rest more safely through some gear (Weapon and Worn Ikons).

I highly doubt I'm gonna actually get to play during the Playtest, but Animist really wanting to play one as a Tien priest of Tamashigo. It's the perfect Cleric alternative for that belief system IMO.

I don't suppose the idea of just using alternate stats is off the table? Add 1/2 your str (or 100% of whatever mental stat) to AC and reflex saves in place of dex and you neatly sidestep most or all of the pressure on your starting stat array or need to take sentinel for bulwark. You'd need to give something to dex too, but anything to encourage more diverse builds imo.

Unfortunately this kind of thing is something they've explicitly wanted to avoid since PF2e was first in development (outside of some exceptionally rare specific exceptions) so highly unlikely.

As someone who saw this class and instantly wanted to build some kind of Shield Hero if you would, I agree we need more Shield support. It would be interesting to have it be a more Support-y Weapon Ikon choice at that.

Nah, see, the Immanence explicitly affects both weapons as long as one is empowered. Think of it as the one that's Empowered has a magnetic effect on the other one, so regardless of which one you throw the magnetic pull will bring reunite them, and the one that got thrown has reduced resistance to being pulled. Likewise with the Transcendence, it's an effect of the Empowered one that just happens to affect both Ikons at the same time. Similar to how your Worn Ikons manage to affect your allies, despite them not being directly imbued with your Divine Spark.

Beyond just these two, it (at least to me and my group) feels like Twin Stars, Hurl at the Horizon, and Mated Birds in Paired Flight are intended to be a chain letting you turn any one-handed melee weapon into a dual-wielding thrown combatant.

Page 22. The overview of Ikons lets you change your ikon "to the new object by spending 1 day of downtime." I'm assuming this can be done with weapon and worn ikons, but [u]not[/u] body ikons. Would this be correct?

Given that as far as I can tell the only thing that changes is the Vessel of the power, and not the Type of Ikon it is... it's arguably not gonna come up much, but at the same time if you do wind up somehow being body swapped, being able to transfer your Body Ikon over to your new Body might still be useful.

Page 23. Noble Branch: The Transcend ability lets you deal spirit damage to a creature you had a successful Strike against. It takes "spirit damage equal to your weapon damage dice." Is this supposed to read the [u]number[/u] of your weapon damage dice, as in 1 spirit damage if you don't have striking runes? Or do they take 1d12 damage if you just struck them with a greataxe?

For starters, outside of the possibility of Shifting rune shenanigans, depending on rulings on that, I don't think you could get this feature on a Greataxe. That aside though, I hope it is the latter because spending an entire action for flat 1-4 damage just doesn't feel worth it, even if it is guaranteed damage.

Page 26. Binding Serpents Celestial Arrow: It says "the arrow" transforms and immobilizes the target. But it also indicates you can use this with thrown weapons. So if used with a thrown weapon I'm assuming it must not return to your hand in order to immobilize the creature...

As an aside to this one, a lot of Ranged Weapon abilities tend to specify Arrow, despite both thrown weapons and just in general other projectiles generally working with them. Can be a little bit awkward sometimes.

Hurl at the Horizon: Does the weapon return to your hand after being thrown? Asking since otherwise it is not possible for a Melee weapon without the Thrown trait initially to ever get Returning.

Unfortunately I'm pretty sure you need the Mated Birds in Paired Flight feat 6 levels later (and also either the level 1 Twin Stars or level 8 Additional Ikon into another Weapon, so you qualify) to get Returning on your Hurl at the Horizon thrown weapon.

People saying that the effect stops stuff of a Spell Rank of half your level... did I miss an errata or something somewhere? Because reading my copy it says you're immune to the effects unless the spell rank is more than twice your level. Meaning at level 1 you're immune to up to Rank 2 effects. At level 2 up to Rank 4. By level 6 it would take Rank 12, which doesn't exist as far as I'm aware.

EDIT: Nevermind, I did miss an errata.

I still think they do sort of want to keep the elements balanced against each other (why else print exactly the same number of impulses at exactly the same levels for every element? It's a lot easier to not do that) so I'd have to disagree there.

I mean, of course they want every subclass (Elements being the Kineticist Subclasses in this instance) to be at least roughly balanced, especially in the class's introduction. Though honestly I think it's more that it is the class's introduction is why every element has the exact same number of Impulses at the exact same levels, thus meaning whichever route you take with it you'll always have options at the same levels as anyone else taking the class. I think that's more just laying the appropriate foundations rather than some over-arching goal to never ever let any element have more impulses than any other element though, and honestly I feel like it would be a bit difficult to write feats for Kineticist that aren't impulses, especially at any level where impulses exist, given they are literally the bread and butter of the class.

Also, even if some core team of Paizo devs did want to never have any other Impulses for Kineticist... Paizo has a good number of devs, even more freelancers, and I'm pretty sure they have a pretty sizeable team of editors too. Plenty of points for someone who happens to like Kineticists to see something they can't do currently that said person thinks they should be able to do, sticks in an Impulse (or heck, maybe even an entire section or if things get really crazy a chapter of Impulses) and it slips past that core team's notice and into an official book. So in short, I wouldn't bet too much on them never seeing another Impulse, any more than I would bet on Monks never seeing another Focus Spell feat, or Fighter never seeing another combat feat.

And that's not even to get into Infinite, which while more iffy on being usable in any given game, also is not beholden to any core team of Paizo devs, outside of Content Guidelines of course.

As they said, but also adding that whenever this is not the case, the source of the Cantrip will always specify what level it casts at. Usually this will be in Cantrips from Items (like breithauptclan mentioned) but also can happen with other cases. The only one I know of at the moment is the Detect Magic cantrip that the Arcane Sense skill feat gives you heightens based on your Arcana skill proficiency rather than your level (starting at 1st when Trained or Expert, then heightening to 3rd at Master and 4th at Legendary).

Another one that just came to me, and this would be an interesting one to actually have as part of the party I think: A Swashbuckling Antipaladin of Cayden Cailean. Going off of what we have from the existing version (noting it might well change, but work with what we've got) as an Antipally of Cayden Cailean, your Edicts and Anathema in order would be (taking Edicts and Anathema from Tenets and Cause as appropriate):

Edicts: drink, free slaves and aid the oppressed, seek glory and adventure, put your Deity's needs before your own, and your own needs before another's (though you can perform acts others might consider helpful, it must be done with the expectation that it ultimately furthers your own goals or those of your master), act dishonorably, take advantage of others, lie, cheat, and steal to get what you want, destroy that which offends you and that which stands in your way, including—and perhaps especially—the forces of Good and Law that oppose you
Anathema: waste alcohol, be mean or standoffish when drunk, own a slave, commit a purely good act (such as giving something solely out of charity, casting a Holy spell, or using a Holy item), bind yourself with any law or oath beyond that of your code

Now, it might not be as easy as some of them, but (setting aside the possibility of being forcibly Holy Sanctified) it would be possible to build a character that meets all those priorities. The kind of character who topples corrupt governments and frees slaves not out of the goodness of their hearts, but because they revel in the glory and celebration, and will undoubtedly profit off those they "helped". And hey, you can be a total jerk who lies, cheats, and steals, without being Mean or Standoffish if you play it well.

This actually got me thinking, and (as someone who is very glad to see Alignment go) some interesting ideas stood out to me. Admittedly mostly based around Champion, since they were more tightly woven with Alignment and thus have more wiggle room now.

First one that's on the lower-end of controversy, Gorum. Formerly Chaotic Neutral, and for whatever reason hard locked out of even Chaotic Good, Gorum could not have Champions on the Good-leaning side. But now, let's look at Gorum's actual Edicts and Anathema as previously printed:

Edicts: attain victory in fair combat, push your limits, wear armor in combat
Anathema: kill prisoners or surrendering foes, prevent conflict through negotiation, win a battle through underhanded tactics or indirect magic

Nothing seems to interfere with Heroic Champion ideology there, and in fact the first Anathema even seems downright Honorable to me. Paladin of Gorum? Makes sense to me.

Now for one that might be more controversial (and I've even had a couple GMs in my own group say they probably wouldn't allow but YMMV), let's look at the (formerly CE, obviously) Demon Lord Dagon.

Edicts: Swim underwater, improve your own strength, encourage the spread of dangerous sea monsters
Anathema: Break a sworn oath, settle in a land-locked area, share Dagon’s secrets with outsiders

So uh... there's only one there I can see that even *might* actually cause an issue with even a Paladin's ideals, and that's the last Edict. After all, dangerous sea monsters tend to be, well, dangerous. But, see, here's the thing: Just because something is dangerous, doesn't mean it's Evil per say. Imagine an inhabitant of the Shackles out there brokering agreements between coastal towns and some of the more intelligent sea monsters, even setting up deals where the coastal town provides food and care for some of the monsters, in exchange for protection. Sea monster gets a safe den where it's not gonna get hunted by every rando with a sword and dreams of grandeur, town gets a guardian that might make the next wandering pirate pause before razing the town (I'm pretty sure pirates, or anyone else who might raze a coastal town, count as Innocents). And imagine they do it successfully enough that they even inspire others to do similarly. Now, to me... that meets that third Edict. The sea monsters are still plenty dangerous, heck that's literally what they contribute to the dal, and through that Paladin's direct actions, they are being spread. And I don't believe that has violated a single clause of the Paladin code. Unless some legitimate authority in the Shackles... I can't even finish this sentence, just that much alone gets me laughing.

And the developers wrote in that 10 minute time limit for what purpose?

I mean, the 10 minute time limit still has a purpose even with the 99% uptime out of combat, and that's "in combat" or "consecutive combats". Between levels 6 and 15 you use any hostile action and your invis goes down, and thanks to that 10-minute clause, unless you happened to enter combat at the perfect time for you (which is highly unlikely), you can't go Invis again until probably at least after combat (though popping it again for Concealed rather than Invis is still valuable, but also resets the 10-minute countdown because you just Used it again). The 10 minute part means that if you have back to back fights (which I know happen sometimes) it has a good chance of carrying over into those other fights too so you straight up don't get Invis for them, especially if you take advantage of the Concealed at all.

Even once you hit level 16 and Hostile actions don't take it down, it's still a Sustained (and Overflow, so re-Channeling is an action cost to keep track of) ability, and there's plenty of things that might get in the way of you Sustaining it. Even with Effortless Impulse, it means you have a trade-off of Sustaining this over another Sustained impulse, and if you for whatever reason really need to Sustain something else instead you can't just do so then re-pop Invis the next turn.

Edit: Heck, assuming Sustaining still has Concentrate (which I wouldn't be surprised) an enemy might even have a Reaction that triggers off that Concentrate and can negate your Sustain.

I didn't, but in my first PF2e game our Cleric did. Cleric of Desna, received Desna's Major Boon for a 40-foot Fly Speed (and 20-foot dim light aura). which actually just brought them up to par with the other three of us in the party, since by that point through various methods 3 of the 4 of us already had constant fly speeds.

Squeakmaan wrote:

Looks like something I'd fight in DOOM, by which I mean it looks metal as heck.

I was looking for a good word to describe them, and there it is: they indeed do look so METAL.

I'm curious to see the other ones. The one in the cover of GM Core seems to be so alien that I really thought it was an outer dragon, a time dragon to be more specific.

Nah, by the description they're explicitly supposed to be scaley and maybe a bit fleshy, not metal.

They do look really cool though. A part of me feels like they feel more abyssal than infernal, but that may just be me.

Super looking forward to the Occult and Primal Dragons though, though a part of me wonders if one of the Primal families could just straight up have the elemental dragons. For Occult I'm really hoping for something Tulpa-esque though, a living story given draconic form, since Bards are our iconic Occult casters after all.

There's one I can think of that we're adding to Monster Core that feels very weird and creepy, at least to me, so hopefully it scratches that itch a bit!

That said, a part of me is expecting this to also be an Occult dragon so we'll just have to wait and see.

In games like these who doesn't hate water? Even aquatic ancestries can suffer in aquatic combat.

Yup. The firing component is integrated into the cost of the ammunition in this edition. Normally for a black powder firearm that's gonna be black powder, but in the case of an Air Cartridge Firing gun the air cartridge replacements take that 'cut' of the cost instead. Since ammo for guns is generally sold in bundles of 5 or 10 anyways, just handwave it as that's how many shots one canister is good for, and replacing it is part of the reload action. Or you could handwave it as a gun with the firing mechanism takes smaller compressed air ampoules that are good for one shot, typically bundled with the individual bullets a la paper cartridges.

also to avoid AoOs, if you're a Melee build and suspect you'll be fighting a lot of them, since Blasts provoke but Weapon Strikes don't.

Unfortunately the method by which I play never facilitates getting any actual-play playtesting in, but it's definitely been interesting lurking around the playtest forum and reading the discussions.

I wonder if Elemental Weapon would get around this, it seems to be the default solution to most of the other Impulse issues.

Honestly if they do like some people have suggested and have multiple Blast options for each element, I could see Fire getting a Bludgeoning "Explosion" Blast. After all, most real-world explosions aren't actually gonna burn you, it's gonna be the pressure wave that gets ya.

once I realized I can spam solar detonation four times every round with each kineticist, I realized the enemies can't avoid being blinded.

This actually shouldn't have worked. As per the ability:

Each of those creatures is then temporarily immune to being dazzled or blinded by Solar Detonation for 10 minutes, but can still take damage from the impulse.

As for the All Shall End In Flames 'bug', I have never seen an activated ability that says "if you [x]" where "you" wasn't the person using the ability.

Well even if Whispering Wind scouting doesn't work out, a Deception-Skilled Fire Familiar with Share Senses Impersonating a fire in a lit fireplace is still a valid spying mechanism. The only flaw I can see in such a plan is if your GM is really against you and rules "The familiar uses your Constitution modifier to determine its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers" doesn't extend using Con to Skilled, but even then that can be worked around.

Ironically for someone who has long been great at math, I'm actually no good at feeling numbers, so much of my discussions has been taking people's word for numerical stuff and just going off my feels. And my feels actually adore much of the class. Here's some of the highlights for me:

> Your basic thing is just... lashing out with elemental matter.
> Every element's blast is unique. It would've been so easy for them to just give a generic "Blast" attack, that the only thing that changed was elemental trait (and that Fire would do Fire damage) like they gave Sorc, but instead they made each Blast unique. And that's awesome.
> Air's ranged blast is a fricken' sniper with that 120 foot range increment.
> Even Air's melee blast is Reach, which I just find a fun way to translate over "your element is the ranged element" even in melee.
> For that matter, Melee is just... a thing that you can do. Now if it can just stop provoking.
> Between the better damage, Propulsive on Range, and Flexible Blasts, Strength-based Earth build is a valid build. May take some extra investment, but possible.
> Honestly, the Blasts in general just have a lot of flavor just in the choice of traits. Air likes to keep their distance, Fire's a general-purpose assault, Earth is strong like boulder with the most Strength support, and Water's melee at least really gives that feeling of flowing strikes with Sweep.
> Adapt Element does give some great flavor. There's something just fun about the fact that if you're at a stuffy dinner party and bored you can just pull a couple flames off the candelabra centerpiece and sit there 'juggling' them. Bonus points for the fact that if you do so and a fight breaks out as they always do in the middle of the event you're now Combat Ready.
> For that matter, Gather Element having some built in utility is fun. The Pyrokineticist Gathering flame to provide light, the Hydrokineticist Gathering water to quench their thirst (more reliable than Cactus Juice, even if it is the Quenchiest). Aerokineticist always having that anime blowing cloak, even a mile underground in a sealed room (and possibly being able to breathe off their Gathered air, GM permitting). And of course Geokineticist just rocks. /shot
> Extract Element, AKA "bringing a Pyrokineticist to the Fire Dragon hunting adventure actually isn't a half-bad idea". Also it's flavorful as heck, just reaching out a hand towards the Dragon/Elemental/whatever and using your greater Claim to just forcibly pull the very elemental essence from their core, just to turn around and smack them back in the face with it.
> Having separate paths for the single-focused Kineticist (always super flavorful), two-element focused (still super flavorful, but now with backup element for utility and Immunities not covered under Extract, probably my favorite path RN TBH), or full Avatar (enough said) all available at level 1.
> Proliferate, an ability that lets you violate conservation of matter that doesn't disappear a minute later. Turn a vial of air into a breathable pocket, throw your cigarette at someone and expand it into a raging inferno, flood the banks of the river to tie up your opponent, turn a pebble into a field of natural caltrops. Also, it'll be really interesting to see how Paizo words this one when Metal comes out, since turning a thrown Adamantine dagger into a 5-foot field of Adamantine Blades might just break the economy.
> Purify. Yes there's the obvious elements, stripping toxins from water, clearing gas from the air, something about plants and earth... but I just love the mental image of a Pyrokineticist who runs into a group of Sarenrite extremists going on about "purifying by fire" and being like "okay but my flames can purify fire itself," and just leaving them speechless.
> Elemental Familiar. Familiars are already cute, but now you can get a firefox, a bird made from clouds, a vaporeon, a carbuncle... the list goes on. They're made all the cuter by being elemental incarnate IMO.
> Elemental Weapon still being able to use appropriate blasts. Give the Aerokineticist a wind-rapier that they can slash through the air to wind-blade an enemy at Reach, or (GM permitting) a cloud Air Repeater shooting real air they can still snipe with. A Geokineticist with a cannon of a Mace Multipistol, smack someone's face in then hotswap to gun form and shoot a boulder at someone. Oh if only there were a one-handed proper Gunblade rather than Dagger or Rapier for some real Cannonblade shenanigans.
> Kinetic Activation, holding up a scroll of Fireball, having it burst into flames in your hand, and you sling a Fireball spell with it. Just gotta get around that Proficiency issue.
> Command Elemental is just cool and flavorful.
> Cycling Blast is super cool, giving that feeling you are actually dual-wielding elements.
> Deconstruct Element. There's something super cool about your enemy shooting something at you and you not only deflect it, you absorb it, and launch it back at them your next turn.
> Fusion Blast. Like Cycling, getting that feeling of actually dual-wielding elements. Also, Fusing one of the high-damage elements like Earth or Water onto an Air Blast to deliver good damage at 120 feet like a boss.
> Gather Amalgamation, or as I like to call it "going full Avatar."
> Maelstrom Blast, while a pain to use when your party is mixing it up in melee, is nonetheless super cool aesthetically. Just unleashing a 60-foot wave of fire, or 120-foot hurricane blast, or even just the simple 20-foot Earth Shotgun.
> A vast majority of the non-Overflow Impulses are super cool, especially the level 1 ones. Ignoring Fall Damage, aura of "stay way from me", exceptionally long-range communication that doesn't even need line of effect, Tremorsense (which even becomes a Precise Sense at 13!), instant stairs (or, GM permitting, ramp for all the wheelchair-using Kineticists), the best Shield Block'ing Shield in the game, Jet Propulsion, multi-use Light (that can even be used to deal Fire damage in an emergency), a pretty effective defensive water block, hydraulic repositioning for your allies (that doesn't even cost them a reaction)... these are all just things you can take at level 1.
> Yeeting Flinging Updraft, something that lets you move enemies without counting as Forced Movement. Finally you can just toss an enemy off a cliff, or into a raging fire. Also later lets you toss your entire party over a gap.
> At Will Flight, with additional benefits, at level 8.
> A lot of the later Impulses have amazing names.

Unless the dungeon you're in is truly massive an Aerokineticist might be one of the few classes that can definitely use their Familiar to scout. After all, they get as a level 1 ability a Message that needs neither line of sight nor effect, and at level 8 has a max range of a mile. Slap some Share Senses on your little buddy in the morning, and use message to command it from a safe place while watching through its eyes. Heck, give it Share Senses and Speech and you can take advantage of the built-in response of Message to only turn on Share Senses when there's actually something to see. And all of this should be entirely within the vanilla options of what Familiars can do.

Also a Pyrokineticist's Elemental Familiar, as per the wording of the feat, both "appears to be... made of [fire]" and "immune to [fire]" so you could absolutely just park it in a burning fireplace to relatively easily bug a room. Or for that matter, what does a creature made of air look like?

A Universalist Kineticist can actually already be a decent dedicated healer. They get 4 separate options for healing in-class (Soothing Breeze and Restoring Mud as level 4 feats, Torrent in the Blood as a level 8 feat, and Circulate Qi as a level 12 feat). Three of those are on a 10-minute cooldown per character. Two of them are AoE heals (one emanation, one a cone), while a third is a 30-foot ranged Single Target. Since they don't start until 4 that also leaves you your level 2 feat for a standard Healer build's Medic or Blessed One archetype.