Two gods decide to go to war. They recruit from the Outer Planes to fill up their armies. Do they instruct their worshippers on the material plane to go to war as well, or do they not bother to involve them? I think the answer to that depends on how important material plane worshippers are to the godhead. What I mean is, if the god's power, whether material or political, amongst the other gods depends on how many mortal worshippers he has, he's likely (IMO) to involve those worshippers in such a war. If mortal worshippers are a "nice to have, but who really cares", he probably won't bother.
We know that it's entirely possible to be a god with no worshipers, and still be fine. The way the Test of the Starstone has worked makes that one pretty clear. Also, there was certainly a period where the gods existed and they didn't *have* any worshipers.
We know that demons and devils feed on souls and sin. It is certainly *possible* for entities that are very similar to gods to derive useful resources from mortal worshipers.
We know that at least some deities actively seek mortal worshipers, and don't appear to be using them as pawns. We can assume that the gods do gain some value from them.
I do think that mortal worshipers will be involved in a Godswar. I mean, if you're fighting a war to the death against a peer opponent, you leverage whatever resources you've got, and mortal worshipers are such a resources.
I don't think that "form them up into armies and have them do army things" is necessarily going to be the way that hey are used. There are a number of things that might make that inefficient. I mean, maybe it is? I just don't think there's any sort of guarantee on that one.
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I'm not someone who wants it all that much but I have to say mythic rules does make some sense. If we're going to maybe be directly involved in the death of a god (assuming pc characters will be involved and not just hear news of it or something) then we might have to get a little more juice to our characters.
While I have little experience with 1e pf I've heard mixed things about mystic rules there. Some really like it but high level play was already unbalanced, where 2e is totally fine at high levels so it does feel more doable. Not to mention a lot of aps do go all the way to 20.
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I'm pretty sure that "power = # mortal worshippers" is a DnD trope. I'll dig around but I think I remember someone (James Jacobs?) saying explicitly that in Pathfinder that isn't true.
Then it seems like the gods "going to war" won't affect what happens on Golarion much -- unless the folks running the various organized religions decide to make it affect things.
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So I decided to bulletpoint what was said in stolen fates about the “possible” future adventure paths here in a spoiler. Keep in mind all of these refer to heroes rising to challenge them.
2. They see great legacies reclaimed where they were thought lost.
3. They see the return of great evils thought lost to time.
4. They see the sun destroyed.
5. They see some deities laughing in delight at beloved mortal entertainers, while others consume them and choke them with cruelty.
6. They see countless spirits shrieking in agony.
7. They see old gods fall and new gods rise in their place.
8. They see a pale cataclysm ravage the lands, leaving only corruption and tangled thorns in its wake.
9. They see a humble village grow where there was nothing before.
10. They see an immense red bird raining fire down upon a small town.
11. They see ultimate power within the grasp of almost countless hands.
12. They see new lands rise from ashes of ancient civilizations.
13.They see a crowned phoenix with the tail of a peacock, its return presaging vengeance upon the world.
That’s possibly 13 future APs, some of which may be red herrings.
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I'm pretty sure that "power = # mortal worshippers" is a DnD trope. I'll dig around but I think I remember someone (James Jacobs?) saying explicitly that in Pathfinder that isn't true.Then it seems like the gods "going to war" won't affect what happens on Golarion much -- unless the folks running the various organized religions decide to make it affect things.
It will have the impact required by the story.
Northern and Southern Arcadia rising.
Camazotz. Consumes. The Sun.
Or something symbolic or divinely representative of the sun’s power.
Maybe Camazotz will be based off of an amalgamation of multiple night or darkness related, ancient-American deities.
https://youtu.be/wbIoa4zA9Vg?si=OFv-oZ5Sn3KPhb8w
Harm font clerics celebrate! :I
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I think the second class pic on the blog looks Arcadian. They’re wearing no metal armour. There’s a ?llama on the pack and a ?bat or something ?South-American inspired on the wooden lower armour covering their crotch.
In the real-world, Mayan myths, Demigods Hunahpu and Xbalanque encounter Camazotz during their trials in the underworld of Xibalba. One gets beheaded.
We know Camazotz will be featured again soonish- what if this is a tease for more Arcadia content?
Edit: hero-gods?
I wonder if there a plan to kill off one of the Core 20 gods from the start?
I wonder if there a plan to kill off one of the Core 20 gods from the start?Aroden's case? or "Pathfinder and Starfinder are separated".
Neither. I was talking about narrative. I'm leaning on that it does, especially since we seem due for a new person to achieve divinity through the Starstone.
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Neither. I was talking about narrative. I'm leaning on that it does, especially since we seem due for a new person to achieve divinity through the Starstone.I wonder if there a plan to kill off one of the Core 20 gods from the start?Aroden's case? or "Pathfinder and Starfinder are separated".
Razmir is currently waiting for the proper time to reach the Starstone. In his own words : "Soon".
Come to think of it, maybe he knows a divine war is coming and he aims to make his attempt while everyone's eyes (especially divine ones) are on the war.
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Today is Playtest Announcement’s Eve, and I have a conspiratorial guess from the feverish fires of my sleep-deprived brain (moving sucks!)…
Tian Xia is our next big setting stop, the far side of the world from the Inner Sea. Howl of the Wild is adding, among other Ancestries, Centaurs and Minotaurs - two peoples thoroughly tied to Iblydos, Iobaria, and other locales in Casmaron. A war between gods is coming, with a lot of bets that Sarenrae is potential in the crosshairs, and there’s a chance the new classes are somehow related to all this.
What does it mean? I don’t think it’s a Lost Omens: Casmaron (there’s been no build-up to that, and I think staff interest is currently elsewhere in the setting outside of a few spots), but we might have a high-level AP on our hands. Fists of the Ruby Phoenix was our introduction to PF2 Tian Xia, so perhaps we’re taking these new Ancestries and Classes out for a spin on some kind of Iblydos or Vudra storyline?
If the predictions about something to scratch the Hero-God itch are right, I think one of the two is suuuper likely, though they’re also documented as an Arcadian phenomenon.
So, this one is a bit left-field, but...
Started out, there were martials (relatively low-flexibility, high-consistency all-day damage dealers) and casters (high-flexibility, with meaningful daily resource limits - lots of utility and ability to nova in large areas, but runs out of gas over extended times).
Now we have kineticists, which take some from each with consistent all-day flexibility and area effects.
...and there's one more corner on that square that's not yet been explored, and one of the available pictures is of some guy who's pretty obviously both very physical and probably somewhat mystical. Still, you expect this one to be up front dealing out the beat-down. So maybe it's time?
Punchcaster.
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So, this one is a bit left-field, but...
Started out, there were martials (relatively low-flexibility, high-consistency all-day damage dealers) and casters (high-flexibility, with meaningful daily resource limits - lots of utility and ability to nova in large areas, but runs out of gas over extended times).
Now we have kineticists, which take some from each with consistent all-day flexibility and area effects.
...and there's one more corner on that square that's not yet been explored, and one of the available pictures is of some guy who's pretty obviously both very physical and probably somewhat mystical. Still, you expect this one to be up front dealing out the beat-down. So maybe it's time?
Punchcaster.
I cast Fist it was super effective.
Nah but serious, aren't you talking about the current Magus? A few high power spells, not very consistent, but can deal a lot of damage if lucky.
TBT, True Strike and Hero points help with being lucky.
I cast Fist it was super effective.
Nah but serious, aren't you talking about the current Magus? A few high power spells, not very consistent, but can deal a lot of damage if lucky.
Magus is close but isn't quite what I was suggesting. They still have full access to Caster Stuff, and that gives them a lot of extra flexibility/utility, and a lot of ways to leverage the spellcasting system in general.
This would be someone who did not have spells, but had some other daily resource pool to play with that offered boosts more directly tuned to direct martial-style combat stuff. They'd probably have the same sort of basic martial chassis that the Magus does, and then they'd have the ability to temporarily juice themselves in various ways
I'm not going to go into detail on this one, because I personally have zero interest in ever playing such a thing. It's pretty much the exact opposite of the Kineticist, and thus the exact opposite of my own interests. I'm not sure there's enough interest for it... but I have seen some interest, and it's an unfilled niche, and it occurred to me that that might be what they were going for.
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I cast Fist it was super effective.
Nah but serious, aren't you talking about the current Magus? A few high power spells, not very consistent, but can deal a lot of damage if lucky.
Magus is close but isn't quite what I was suggesting. They still have full access to Caster Stuff, and that gives them a lot of extra flexibility/utility, and a lot of ways to leverage the spellcasting system in general.
This would be someone who did not have spells, but had some other daily resource pool to play with that offered boosts more directly tuned to direct martial-style combat stuff. They'd probably have the same sort of basic martial chassis that the Magus does, and then they'd have the ability to temporarily juice themselves in various ways
I'm not going to go into detail on this one, because I personally have zero interest in ever playing such a thing. It's pretty much the exact opposite of the Kineticist, and thus the exact opposite of my own interests. I'm not sure there's enough interest for it... but I have seen some interest, and it's an unfilled niche, and it occurred to me that that might be what they were going for.
If we can reskin this as a hero-god using bursts of divine power to bolster their martial attacks, I might end up liking this. Maybe.
Now you are describing a Swashbuckler... or the old way to do Barbarian (with the rage rounds) or Monk (Ki Pool).
It's not a swashbuckler, because swashbuckler doesnt' do daily resoruces. They don't even do encounter resources. There are builds that recharge and then spend their full pool-equivalent every round under the right circumstances.
PF1 did a lot of things with x-per-day resources on basically everyone. They moved away from that a fair bit with PF2, and I'm glad of it, but yes, this concept would be a way to give that back to the players who actually really like that stuff.
I'm not seeing it like the Barbarian, as it's a lot more bursty and a lot less "you probably have enough to last the day". I don't actually know how oldmonk played in PF1, but what little I remember suggests that the Ki Pool was a pretty limited portion of their total build budget. If that's accurate, then that would be a difference there.
Regardless... sort of? I mean, broadly speaking, it's true. I'm suggesting a class that does mostly martial things but also has meaningful daily resources, and I'm willing to believe that PF1 also had these things. That doesn't mean that the concepts are identical, or that "port over Class, as it was, as close as you can possibly get it" would fill the need anything like as well as one that was built from the ground up for PF2.
So like D&D Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords martial?
No. Every one of those was on some manner of at-will refresh. The longest it took to refresh your powers for any of those classes was a single round spent recharging. That's not "much of my power is built as a daily resource pool."
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Tbh since Pathfinder 2e came out we have said that book of 9 swords/path of war style clasz would fit in naturally have the 3 action system and feat systems. Tbh kinetecist remind same of them, with the special stances and action, and getting extra feats for their special actions. Its not a 1 for 1 obviously but it has the same vibe to me, especially with the wacky special names for abilities.
I'm not really sure what martial with daily resources accomplishes. Like what mechanic are you looking for? Why is it a good thing?
I'm not really sure what martial with daily resources accomplishes. Like what mechanic are you looking for? Why is it a good thing?
I've seen people ask for it, and it's an obvious empty spot in the roster. Mostly what it gives you is the ability to hit the button and do Really Awesome Things for a brief span, a few times per day... and then work out a build that will still let you contribute the rest of the time at a lower level. I suspect that athletics maneuvers would be popular, which fits the look.
It lets you play low-budget One Punch Man. Some folks might like the idea of playing low-budget One Punch Man.
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I'm pretty sure that whatever this class is, it's not going to be "beloved PF1 class with the serial numbers filed off".
I mean, if it worked for Thaumaturge...
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The stream seemed to imply that there will be more ways for mortals to become immortal... Now this could just be due to the increased level of divinity in general. But I wonder if Pharasma might be the one to kick the bucket. The deity of death, balance and the afterlife could lead to a metaphysical reasoning for such things happening, and the psychopomps and other deities associated with death may take a bit in order for the machinery of death to run smoothly again or adjust to the new normal.
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Our new rulebook is War of Immortals, with the two classes within the spirit-bonding Animist and the (Rare!) bearers of a shard of divinity known as Exemplars.
The “divine book” is finally upon us!
I can't help but notice... This isn't a book that will have Mythic in it, but it's a heck of a brick for building up to mythic.
It looks like Animist also gives us our shaman-equivalent for the earlier posited Saga Lands to Arcadia path...? Maybe. I didn't hear much about making deals with spirits or placating spirits in general or whatever. The Shaman might still be coming.
The "here's a bunch of ways to be immortal" schtick is definitely a brick for Casmaron, though.
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I'm really keen on seeing what Exemplar played as a trickster is like. Switching up what class is doing for you in combat feels very trickster-y, and high level abilities like stealing sight to fuel your invisibility suit it pretty well. One of the starting epithets is "clever". Looking forward to seeing how it all comes together.
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I can't help but notice... This isn't a book that will have Mythic in it, but it's a heck of a brick for building up to mythic.
It looks like Animist also gives us our shaman-equivalent for the earlier posited Saga Lands to Arcadia path...? Maybe. I didn't hear much about making deals with spirits or placating spirits in general or whatever. The Shaman might still be coming.
The "here's a bunch of ways to be immortal" schtick is definitely a brick for Casmaron, though.
The Animist is doing nothing but spirits. It’s definitely the “shaman” of 2e.
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I'm bit spooked of implication that something about war of the immortals involving metaphysical changes on how things work x'D There is at least strong implication of multiple gods dying if nothing else
(this better not be paizo agreeing that "you know, some comments about there being too many gods is true, time to cull them" x'D)
The Animist is doing nothing but spirits. It’s definitely the “shaman” of 2e.
We'll see. If it gets "do diplomacy with random spirits" feats, then I'll agree with you. If not, I think there's still space in the lore for another Shaman class, and there's definitely still space to find interesting ways to build them in the rules.
The Animist is doing nothing but spirits. It’s definitely the “shaman” of 2e.I can't help but notice... This isn't a book that will have Mythic in it, but it's a heck of a brick for building up to mythic.
It looks like Animist also gives us our shaman-equivalent for the earlier posited Saga Lands to Arcadia path...? Maybe. I didn't hear much about making deals with spirits or placating spirits in general or whatever. The Shaman might still be coming.
The "here's a bunch of ways to be immortal" schtick is definitely a brick for Casmaron, though.
As far as I understood, these apparitions aren't really spirits. The class seems to owe much more to 3.5E's binder and the 1E medium than the shaman. At least I prefer to think so, since in my eyes the shaman was a spectacularly boring class.
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The Animist is doing nothing but spirits. It’s definitely the “shaman” of 2e.We'll see. If it gets "do diplomacy with random spirits" feats, then I'll agree with you. If not, I think there's still space in the lore for another Shaman class, and there's definitely still space to find interesting ways to build them in the rules.
Isn’t that the whole point of the Channeler half of the class, hanging out with random spirits? It (and the more devoted Sage) are the two splits mentioned on stream today.
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I'm betting in the next year or two we'll finally get mythic rules . based on the name of that book the upcoming qp and the exmplar now bieng a thing it seems everything is leading to thatOur new rulebook is War of Immortals, with the two classes within the spirit-bonding Animist and the (Rare!) bearers of a shard of divinity known as Exemplars.
The “divine book” is finally upon us!
I feel the Exemplar being so close to PF1 Mythic in concept/origin is a sign that we will NOT get PF2 Mythic rules soon, if ever.
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I feel the Exemplar being so close to PF1 Mythic in concept/origin is a sign that we will NOT get PF2 Mythic rules soon, if ever.I'm betting in the next year or two we'll finally get mythic rules . based on the name of that book the upcoming qp and the exmplar now bieng a thing it seems everything is leading to thatOur new rulebook is War of Immortals, with the two classes within the spirit-bonding Animist and the (Rare!) bearers of a shard of divinity known as Exemplars.
The “divine book” is finally upon us!
And this greatly saddens me because they have effectively made the Mythic martial paths into a class. While the Mythic caster paths are effectively gone.
So now you can play a mythic fighter (I bet it will be compareable to fighter). But no mythic version of any of the other classes.
Well, stop feeling sad. Michael Sayre on Reddit said this:
The exemplar is not a substitute for mythic rules.
I feel the Exemplar being so close to PF1 Mythic in concept/origin is a sign that we will NOT get PF2 Mythic rules soon, if ever.
I still say it's the opposite. We've been talking about how some books are bricks in the foundations of other books. This whole "all sorts of ways to become immortal" thing just screams "part of the foundation that the Mythic rules are built on" to me. At this point, I'd expect Mythic rules to be coming out in one of the rulebooks announced next year.
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I think Michael Sayre is being cagey because the book is so far out but it sounds like the book these new classes is coming out in is going to include a lot of gonzo, mythic caliber archetypes that can fit over any class.
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>looking for new class
>ask a Paizo developer if Animist is a new class or a rehash of the Shaman
>she doesn't undersand >|pull out PF1 Shaman class and explain its core features
>she laughs and says "it's a new class sir"
>play animist
>it's a Shaman rehash
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>looking for new class
>ask a Paizo developer if Animist is a new class or a rehash of the Shaman
>she doesn't undersand >|pull out PF1 Shaman class and explain its core features
>she laughs and says "it's a new class sir"
>play animist
>it's a Shaman rehash
Explain the Shaman’s core features, like… a pet, something the Animist doesn’t have?
I appreciate the “creepy and wet” callback as much as anyone, but it doesn’t sound like the Animist mechanically has anything inherited from the old Shaman. I assume that was a big part of driving the rename.