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Shouldn't Evil Eye go first to guarantee they fail to save against the curse?

Also the Hex feat to get another try would just wreck these target.

Target: "Yes! I passed my save it's only for 1 round"

Hexcrafter: "Hahahah, nope." *punches the guy and it fails the save due to all the other penalties/curses.*

So why can't it be an on spell-hit effect? If there is problem of it hits too much than it can just not work on: summons (not really there), undead (do to negative energy), constructs (not alive), and/or mass/AoE spells (too spread to channel currectly).

Otherwise just treated it as a Vampire/Succubuss Mechanic. Aka it only works on direct contact through blood drinking/touching.

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Oh right I just remember the Maverick could handle/use Duel and Performance Combat feats. This separates them from Fighters by being more focused on putting a show and looking good then mastering how to use a weapons or armor.

Competitive athlete vs Battle hardened warrior.

So things like, improving crowd friendliness, using flourishes to distract the enemy, Smack talk & low blows (debuffs), rallying cry and cool displays (buffs), etc.

The signature skills would be some combination: Acrobatics, Atheltics, Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidation, Performance, and Society.

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What it is::

An Acrobat, a Dancer, a fake Magician, a Daredevil, a Desperado, a Stuntman, a Trickester (in some ways, Ex: feint), a Debonair, the Fool, the Gambler (see Gambit), the Clumsy yet capable/lucky, the Capable Airhead/Cloudcuckcoolander, a Musketeer, an off-beat Samurai (Ex: Samurai Champloo), a James Bond type Spy, Han Solo (maybe it's hard to tell with him), the Eccentric person, the Loose-Cannon.

What it is not::
a Weapon Master, an Armor Master, an Archer, a Shield Master, a Rogue, a Pirate, a Bard, a skilled Warrior, a Brawler, a Heavy Gunner, a Sniper, a Bombardier, a Mercenary (at least not dedicated/trained as one), a Combat Officer, a soldier, a Monk (of any type), a Ruffian, a Sneak, a Bouncer, a Hammer Thrower, a Charger/Lancer, a regular (aka serious) Samurai, a Knight, a Vaulter, a Valkyrie, a Legionare, a Commando, an Assassin, a secretive Spy, a Tower Shield Specialist, the Obvious Hero, etc.

* And as always, there will be tropes that are shared between classes. Its literally impossible to railroad classes enough to prevent that (specially with multiclassing), without ruining the game and becoming the exact opposite of Pathfinder.

* * This lists are not all inclusive or definitive, just a bunch of things I noted down as I though of concepts.

That was a necro.

But to answer your question, it depends. The feat lowers the effective handedness of the weapon by 1. So a 1 size larger 1-handed sword remains a 1-handed sword instead of becoming 2-handed.

As for Jotungrip, the FAQ says that you treat weapons with that type of ability as however you are holding it at the time. The feat itself wouldn't work because Jotungrip only works for weapons "created for a creature of your size". So you could dual wield medium greatswords, but not large greatswords.

In other words, lighten weapon is the combination of Jotungrip and Titan Fighter, with an upgrade to work on any weapon (not just 2-handed).

Well there are rules to not use the feat,
But it's a very very vague rule that in simplest most average way amounts to: You may try if you really really want, but you have absolutely no say what so ever and the roll is just a placebo.

You didnt even touch all my other examples that are in fact unique as far as PF2e is concerned. You didnt talk about the mobility options, the mix with skill options, the

There exists already two different Parry feats, so having a different version for a different class is not a problem. Using your burger example, the game has a Hamburger, a Double Hamburger, and with this we can have Lamb-burger; sure they are all burgers, but they arent the same burger.

You cant call 2 totally different mechanics the same thing just cause they share a name. That's like assuming both Football games are the same when they couldn't be more different.

We talked about giving the new class a new resource, and the response was "that should be for everyone".
We talked about giving new mechanic and the response is either "fighters can do that" (even though they can't) or "we dont need that".
We talked about concept and the response was "everyone should be able to do that" (but apparently no one else can get weapon abilities).
We talked about it having out of combat uses and the response is "those are skill feats".

I gave you examples of abilities a swashbuckler type character can get and you keep dismissing them as being "fighter things". While saying that because something is different doesn't make it different, seriously what does that even mean. Why does Fighter Parry Define what any other type of Parry for any other class do? Isn't that the point of the new edition new abilities for every class?.

Adding more options is never a bad thing, we never stated we wanted classes to be bad, or that fighter should lose thing. I literally has seen no one ever have this view no one.

The thread was about talking about what could hardly be called a weapon master, that uses light armor and and feints. A Dex/Cha based character, capable of inspiring allies and possessing a unique resource to power its Acrobatic, Inspirational, and Luck-like abilities. That doesnt use: a nature/caster theme, sneak attack, AoO, rage, shields, stealth, or gain access to many skills. The type of character that dashes across the battlefield excelling in 1v1 mobile combat and skirmishing; but crushed when standing still or fighting long drawn out battles.

My homebrewing new feats is a direct response to "fighters can already do everything a swashbuckler can do so we dont need a new class" and "there isn't enough to make a unique class". I dont believe anyone asked to get identical abilities; and none of the feats I made were identical to the original deeds (except maybe Dodging Dance).

Also using a clearly broken feat to say not everything is needed is a clear strawman argument. And people keep asking for examples of "unique mechanics" to "not mess with the fighter", which you are now denying because "I made them up"; By similar logic, devs shouldn't make any new rules, mechanics, or feats ever after all "Fighters already do it".

If you say I can't use examples, rational reasoning, emotional reasoning, conceptual/philosophical reasoning, hypotheticals, pls tell me why is your side debating?

I mean there is literally no humanly possible way to present arguments without the goal post being moved and having to restart from 0.

The Parry attribute and the Dueling Parry are not the Swashbuckler's Opportune Parry or the Opportune Parry I wrote down and you shut it down. But Twin Parry which is double the benefit of Dueling Parry (but at a higher feat level) is okay?

How is block 1 attack using your weapon vs get an AC boost anything alike? If anything my feat is closer to a shield block.

The Kip-Up I wrote is mechanically superior to the skill feat version, by both getting it, and the ability to pick up weapons and feint simultaneously. Can Fighter really do that with one feat?

Other Swashbuckling/Guise/Maverick type feats:
Dodging Panache: as reacting move 5-ft and gain a circumstance bonus to AC. Rogues (not Fighters) get a circumstance bonus to AC called Dodge.

Derring Do: when making some check you can pay X resource to treat the success as 1 higher (Ex: Crit fail is Fail, Fail is Success, etc.). Which class does this?

Swashbuckler's Grace: stance, when you use tumble through add this effects: on a crit success get a circumstance bonus to strike the enemy you avoided; on a crit fail get a circumstance penalty to AC vs the enemy you failed to avoid.

Dodging Dance (new from Chronicles of Legend): 1 action spend X resource, move half your speed. If you get attacked roll Acrobatic to tumble through, on a success you may use a reaction to strike. You may repeat this check for every enemy attack with a -Y penalty for every additional enemy.

1/4 to 1/2 of all vigilante social talents work really well for a "Guise" or "Maverick" class.

While that makes sense, you are suggesting that there can't be other ways to do things.

Fighters have parry, therefore no one else can parry using a different technique (wait Rangers get Twin Parry so that's clearly false).
And everyone can get Kip Up, so no class can do Kip Up differently.

For example PF1e had two versions of Kip Up. Swashbucklers could as a move action stand up without provoking, and as a swift action pick up their weapon and get a bonus to feint. They also had like four/five different versions of Parry, all with different conditions and benefits.

A PF2e possible Swashbuckler Kip Up feat?:
Kip-Up: Passive; at turn start if you are prone, you stand back up without triggering reactions. 1 action; must have a free hand and still have X resource, pick up an unattended weapon or object from the ground and perform a feint action using Acrobatics (Dex).

A PF2e possible Swashbuckler Parry feat?:
Opportune Parry and Reposte: 1 reaction and spend 1 point of X resource; when attacked you may parry the attack, roll a Strike vs the enemies Strike roll.
Crit Success: You take no damage and you may roll weapon damage vs the enemy.
Success: You take no damage.
Crit failure: You take damage and drop your weapon.
Failure You take damage.

May I ask why do we have to design the class that we want the dev's to design? That's like putting the cart before the horse.

(It is also discarded if the group just doesnt work well together. But yeah, its partly a theorycraft thing.)

Conductive requires 2 uses only for abilities that have limited uses (Ex: Channel Energy). Its why things like Warlock or Kinetic Blast is so good with it.

Question how good would an Ashtifah dip be? I feel like it might be yellow or green do to basically at will lesser invisivility.

Umm Widened/Extended Overloaded Magic Missile with Extort just sounds broken (if it were a thing).

I wonder what would had happen if they had named/marketed it as "WoW trpg" instead, kind of the reverse of Pathfinder: Kingmaker crpg. What do you all think?

(So if that theory holds true, the fault lies in Hasbro not letting WotC build 4e properly, trying to catch up to the MMO trend. Much like companies were trying to catch the MOBA trend, and lately the Battle Royale trend?)

Arcanists actually did/do have a way to change enhantments properties of items as a standard action, but limited duration.

So expanding it and giving casters the ability to change/trade/move enhancements permanently would be nice. Using a 10-min, maybe 1 hour for martials, ritual sounds like a great addition (the time can obviously change as needed to be less or impossible depending on setting/group).

If the rankings are for individual books, I also suspect part of the reason PF1e is not in the top 5 is because all the books it has available. As far as I know, none of the mentioned top 5 have a lot of books to buy from (compared to PF1e).

The end of life thing is also probably a factor. People rarely go for something that is ending, unless they plan to later resell at a profit to collectors (or nostalgia).

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Essence is a term from the playtest, it basically states that each spell list is made by taking 2 different types of magic. For example: The Divine list is Spirit/Vitalitiy, while the Primal list is Material/Vitality; or something to that effect.

A more general view is: What 2 things does the spell list affect most.

Fighter gets bow feats, doesnt mean Ranger doesn't get bow feats.

A swashbuckling character would still get it's relevant Parry/Riposte feats that works for them, and distinct from the fighter version.

Again people dont want general weapon feats, but they also cant accept giving classes other than Fighter their own weapon feats. Its hypocrisy I say.

As for weapon defining classes, there is a lot of versatility in what weapons they can actually use. Gunslinger for example, was also the base for Siege Engine, Crossbow, and Longbow mastery.

Hmm sounds like you lose your kitsune form for sure. But I'm not sure whether Change Shape is an ability based on form.

Maybe he was running out of safe things to leak?

I say it's still to early to count the data, even 4e lasted a while before they called quits. So until the grace period is over and they dont release massive changes to the core rules, then yes customers have deemed it an improvement; how big isn't really relevant.

You could take a trait thats gives a discount, I think the max discount they give is 5-10%. But not sure how that would affect the 1.5 WBL limit.

Possible ideas for modifications:

Btw the Self Repair modification might be nice specially considering you plan on boosting HD. It would also free more extracts from being Cure Wounds.

With Construct Shelter + Movement modification you could make your Homunculus your own personal mobile home in the sky.

Mental Alarm (relatively cheap) means you have an always active warning bell.

Sense modification means you no longer need to worry about invisible creatures (thx mind link).

Armor Modification + Toughened Hide means you can get a relatively high AC Homunculus. Alternatively, it means you can give it some armor enchantment that could be useful.

For magic items, a Chirugeon Cube is a good construct healing item.

There is also the Drops of the Unseen Master ("mundane"), it let's you see through the homunculus' eyes and extends the mind link to 1 mile for 1 day.

Well there is also the option of offering all your gold (or other valuables) to the thief. But yeah, without the feats the other characters have no reason to stop fighting without a really good incentive.

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You know it's funny.

When people say the "guise" class can have a unique mechanic based on luck or something, the others respond with that should be for everyone.

But when people mention getting access to weapons, the other say: That's just a fighter, multiclass fighter, or dont step on fighter.


Unpopular opinion:
There are plenty of feats that a Swashbuckler/Gunslinger/Sleuth/Archeologist could get if you combine all the class and archetype abilities they originally had. I mean just between default Swashbuckler and Gunslinger you have about 24 unique deeds from levels 1 to 19, the remaining being different versions for melee and range. Add in deeds from the 30+ Swashbuckler/Gunslinger archetypes, all the deed specific feats, and any potential new feats they might create; And you get 3 (up to even 5) times more abilities than PF2e classes have feats to expend.

Yes Fighters are weapon masters as so they get all the weapon feats, except all the feats that are class specific due to either mechanics or concept. So why cant there be a class that has a unique mechanic and feats that interact with said mechanic that has "guns" as their weapon?

Otherwise, Ranger should'nt get bow affecting feats (which they in fact do).

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The gravity thing probably has to do with the lore for the negative and positive energy planes. That is center of black hole == negative energy plane, center of star/white hole == positive energy plane.

The shadow stuff is weird thou unless you view shadows as undead, therefore negative energy.

Technically, the Magus and Paladin each had a "soulknife" archetype. And Groomblad Fighter is the shadow version of it, minus spells.

The call truce is basically what you want, it still has a DC 30+ highest enemy Cha diplomacy check. And it only lasts for 1 minute.

And as all diplomacy instant combat end, it heavy tells you you will get penalties and DC rises due to circumstances.

You know there is the Brawling Blademaster Samurai. Not exactly Flurry of Blows, but it's quite close to U. Monk flurry. It also does get Monk Unarmed Strike damage.

Some other fun stuff but it requires many many feats. Diabolic Judgment let's you apply Vital Strike to 1 AoO. So combine this with Greater Trip and Felling Smash and you can deal 64d6 damage in one turn as an Attack + Swift action.

You know for 1k gp (non bonus enchanment) you can get the Shrinking enchantment. Making that huge Growing Impact Butchering Axe become the size (and weight) of a dagger until the command word is spoken.

(There are also a lot of spells that require expensive material, so you might be able to trade diamonds and stuff for spell/extraplannar services).

Big Hands/Titan Fighter (large) + Impact (Huge) + Enlarge person (Gargantuan) + Growing enchanment (Colossal) (maybe not sure).

There might be a spell that makes you huge instead of large, if so then:
Big Hands/Titan Fighter (Large) + Impact (Huge) + Hugify spell (Colossal).

The biggest problem is probably the weight of the item potentially skyrocketing. So high strength, mustleback cords, the trait that gives bonus carrying capacity, and I think there is also a feat for it.

That disconnect is in how much work the GM has to do for what's effectively the same result.

For example: Let's say there are 3 stores. At any given point they all sell A, two have a 75% chance to sell B, and 1 has a 50% chance to sell C. Without searching for the item you decide to buy C on day X, can you buy it? If you notice, there is no way to know if the item is available without searching.

Same thing happens with Shrodinger's cat, you know there is a chance the cat will die, but you dont know if it did until you check.

Same thing happens in PF1e. Until a player decides to look for an item, the GM doesn't have to worry about whether its available, just wether it can be.

More philosophical version. If a tree falls in the forest what sound does it make?

Again just to make sure, people can only know as much as they have search for, anything else is a mystery; and might aswell not exist, unless it has an immidiate effect on your surroundings.

No one cares or knows what items are being sold in the next town over unless they live in that town.


Lelomania it just requires either good luck with rolls or to follow this clause: "Players with a particular character concept in mind may consult their GM if they want to select a specific variant ability."


That's a different question and I dont know what the answer would be. Personally, on first guess I would say it works since Enlarge calls out you can continue wielding held weapons as normal.

That's something to discuss with the GM.

I did say anymore, as in they were immune and now they are not.

Anyways, no matter what PF1e concept/class is brought up people will say it messes with X class(es) and so it can't be ported.

Witch messes with Bard. Shifter messes with druids. Hunters messes with both Druids and Rangers. Warpriest messes with Champions and Clerics. Brawlers mess with Fighters and Monks. Investigators mess with Alchemists. Arcanist is anti Wizard and Sorcerer. Vampire Hunter goes against Ranger. Vigilantes goes against every class. Ninjas are anti Rogue. Antipaladin (Anti-Champion?) would be anti Champions. Kineticists would damage sorcerers. Physic casters would go against Regulad casters. Bloodrager and Magus both gone.

Inquisitors might have a chance. Oh wait nope they go against Champions and Clerics. And Oracle would go against Sorcerer and Cleric.

* Good bye.

Really being brave is a fighter only thing now? I guess Paladins can't be immune to fear anymore. Or grant said immunity to others.

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Okay you dont want Fighters to be the the only class to be good with weapons, but you also dont want a class that's specifically good with guns and/or 1-handed weapons (that's what swashbuckler was), because it goes against the Fighter.

So compromise, a class whose whole point is being super lucky and/or brave, which happens to have 1-handed weapon and gun feats as their "combat options". The class feats themselves are deeds and cool tricks people with this class are somehow able to pull off when others can't.

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Wait wasn't the Fighter's thing now that they got a feat for every combat style? Going by the logic you guys are using there shouldn't be any martial classes besides the Fighter cause only he can "master weapons". Ranged Ranger? Nope Only fighters can have bow feats. Big weapon Barbarian? Nope only Fighters can have big weapon feats. Monk? Nope only Fighters can have unarmed strike feats...

See where I'm going? You can't have the Fighter be the sole weapon feat getter and still expect other martial classes to function.

Imagine if the Wizard was the only one allowed to have spells because he is the "Master of Magic".

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Arachnofiend wrote:
Temperans wrote:
Btw the Iron grip gauntlets will deal with the size penalty (if you dont go tiefling or full Titan Mauler/Fighter).

The iron grip gauntlets and the tiefling racial both simply remove the accuracy penalty for wielding large weapons; they don't do anything to remove the hard restriction on not being able to wield large two-handed weapons at all. Hell, the Irongrip Gauntlets even specifically mention that they don't affect the hand requirements in its text.

As far as I know, the Titan Fighter archetype is the only way to wield a large 2-hander as a medium creature.

The tieflings Big Hands ability has a dedicated thread of people debating whether it works or not. From that thread it was shown that Big Hands is almost a word for word copy of the Redcap's ability (which wields a medium scythe as a small creature).

Redcap: A redcap can wield weapons sized for Medium creatures without penalty.
Tiefling: You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty.

If the GM doesn't want to allow it fine, but by RAW it should be allowed.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:
I was assuming he was just using Enlarge Person or something, but yes you do need a way to wield a large two-handed weapon if that's what you're trying to do.

So 4d6 is better than 2d8: mean damage is 14 vs. 9

What if the wielder was using Enlarge Person and Lead Blades?

Then it's 5d6 vs. 3d8: 17.5, vs. 13.5.

What if the wielder were a Goliath Druid (Huge Giant) or a high level Psychic Warrior (Augmenting Expansion) and had a Wand of Lead Blades?

6d6 vs 4d8: 21 vs. 18.

Then you are talking about Vital Strike, so 42 vs. 36.

Seems like Butchering Axe just does more damage.

Damage dice increase follows a table were every increase after 2d6/2d8 doubles doubles every 2 size increases.

The actual progression would be:
Large: 4d6 vs 2d8 (14 vs 9), 24 vs 18 w/ VS.
Huge: 6d6 vs 3d8 (21 vs 13.5), 42 vs 27 w/ VS.
Gargantuan: 8d6 vs 4d8 (28 vs 18), 56 vs 36 w/ VS.
Colossal: 12d6 vs 6d8 (42 vs 27), 82 vs 54 w/ VS.

Later versions of Vital Strike makes it even more pronounced.

Well the swift is also your immidiate action (aka the pf2e reaction).

Hmm the 3 action economy might be nice. But thinking about it, isnt PF1e action economy 2 actions + 1 reaction? (AoO is a special non-action thing.)

The backgrounds in addition to traits could make for even better backstory creations.

Skill feats as a seperate pool is also good. I would probably have them every 3 levels staggered with general feats.

Also weapon properties and default Dex to attack.

Btw the Iron grip gauntlets will deal with the size penalty (if you dont go tiefling or full Titan Mauler/Fighter).

Well Water Dancer monks gets that is generally mobile and has some stealth.

Warlock Vigilante (seriously vigilantes are amazingly versatile) get a blast that scales in damage (poorly but scales) and can get lots of the normal vigilante goodies.

Aether Kineticists can make great scouts thanks to Invisibility and easy access to "immortal" familiars (potentially with EX invisibility).

Ashtifa Witch also has good access to invisibility, mobility, divination and combat spells/abilities. But they are bad at flanking. They very much rely on save or suck from across the battlefield.

Arcanists are in a similar situation where they are really good at scouting but fail when flanking (although they can easily survive melee thx to Armored Mask).

Butchering Axes are just Exotic orc weapons from Belkzen thou. It was also introduced in Adventurer's Armory (2?), so it shouldn't be tied to any specific scenario or module.

When I played it I had the humonculus look like my "shy" sister and be a frontliner/maid/front desk sales person.

(Dont forget big handed tieflings as a way to hold large weapons.)

The biggest benefit of large Butchering Axe is that each bigger size category adds multiple dice. 3d6 (medium) -> 4d6 (large) -> 6d6 (huge) -> 8d6 (gargantuan) -> 12d6 (colossal)

With Vital Strike (or greater) you are then throwing max 24, 36, or even 48d6 damage on 1 attack. On top of any other rolls for merging things (Warrior Poet or Heritor Knight for example).

For Evolve, it could be some effect that triggers at the start of your turn. Maybe getting a bonus to stats or getting Eidolon evolutions.

For Graft, PF has multiple "graft" related options already. From Fleshwarped creatures, elixirs and poison; Necrografts (uses undead body parts); Possesed Hand/Countananced Carbunkle; and Elemental Augmentations (uses elemental energy).
Just mentioning them since maybe one of those can give you more ideas.

Also ask if you can combine items, if so then you can just combine the stat boosting headband with the headband of unshakeable resolve.

If I remember correctly that's good for about 50% of constructs

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