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wotc sowing: its good to be the king
wotc reaping: ah man heck me dude


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Leon Aquilla wrote:

The only reason I've ever picked up an EvilHat Productions game was to see what all the hype for Blades in the Dark was. Played it a few weeks. Thought it was okay. And put it down in favor of something that the writer put more effort into fleshing out.

It's a good (what we used to call) "beer and pretzels" game, but it's not Pathfinder.

For you, based on your single interaction. I've played campaigns of comparable length and complexity to Paizo APs using Fate and Apocalypse World and Monsterhearts andandand. Don't confuse market dominance for depth of play. Fine to not like it personally but you don't need to diminish its value.


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Xyxox wrote:
If Paizo is going the route of its own Open license, I will be a Pathfinder player forever and never again go back to ANY Wizards product.

The lesson is "don't rely on any private company to do good long-term, especially in a position of market dominance." The lesson shouldn't be "find a new private company to be loyal to."

And there are certainly better and worse ways they could build a license. Build it with community input as an open license that explicitly states no single entity can claim dominance over it? Probably better. Build it with Paizo as the sole caretakers based on the hope that this business will be better? Maybe less good.

A lot of Paizo people rule, but businesses gonna business.


Shisumo wrote:
TemporarySanity wrote:
I really believe all the big developers like Paizo, Kobold, AAW, etc need to get together and build a new generic game system that anyone can use. And so they can divorce themselves from the SRD.
Unfortunately, this whole debacle has also proven that "we promise to forever play nice" is not something that can be relied on. That's going to lead basically every publisher with the means to do so to turn to solely rely on stuff that is already entirely under their control, like a proprietary game system. I don't think this is going to mean the end of open gaming in general, but to say that it's had a chilling effect on the concept is to commit grave understatement (Monte Cook has already commented on this element with regard to the Cypher open license).

Even outside Cypher System, there's a whole world of games out there with more permissive licenses. FATE and Powered by the Apocalypse (and many of its own hacks-turned-full-games). Open gaming hasn't ever fully relied on WotC's generosity. Maybe its just time people learned more about the other options out there.

All this exist entirely outside the combination of WotC torpedoing their own environment and the games that have grown from its legacy and the lives of the people behind those myriad games being upended. That nonsense (as portrayed thus far) is pointlessly cruel to do in a game (money) they are already winning by a large margin.


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keftiu wrote:
Not the most surprising reveal, but exciting nonetheless - this new interview confirms that the Elemental Lords will be getting full deity writeups in the book!

The deity write-ups have been some of my favorite PF2 content.


Hope all is well!


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Wolf Munroe wrote:

How much of this book is mechanics and how much of it is setting/lore?

What I'm trying to find out is how much of this book is useful to someone who uses the Pathfinder setting but doesn't use Pathfinder2e mechanics?

You will find a wealth of goodness.


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I don't see the above concept as even a particularly unpleasant person to be around in a moment-to-moment sense. Doesn't need to be bitter or jilted or anything.

They just have to be the "Say Yes" friend. Should I date the hot-but-problematic person? Say YES! HE'S HOT! Should I try these potentially problematic intoxicants? Say YES! It is a party and you are too UPTIGHT! Then watch the drama unfold. But never in a way that harms your ability to enjoy the fallout.

Maybe not literally the above, but the same vibe. Your cruelty is not in the specific act, but the callous disregard for the consequences to others for your own amusement.


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aobst128 wrote:
There's also possible desecrators of Naderi. A goddess of love. That one's a bit harder to justify. Although not impossible. Any ideas?

Someone who encourages toxic and destabilizing relationships?


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How did I forget that book existed. Huh.


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keftiu wrote:

Continuing to act as a courier for Reddit commentary: some very interesting notes from James Jacobs here in a discussion about 3-part APs. While the insights in the OP and JJ's further replies (including about how things were pretty bumpy recently), there's a curious tidbit I figured the speculation fiends here might enjoy:

Quote:
2023's upcoming Adventure Path schedule as us experimenting a bit with the formula. Stolen Fate is a 3 part high-level Adventure Path coming out in that year, and we're rapidly approaching Pathfinder 200 in early 2024 that we're going to do something unusual and special with. After that... the goal is to try to do a much more balanced mix of low and high level Adventure Paths each year, with a stronger bit of support from the standalone Adventure line to provide additional adventure options.
I admit, I'm at a loss to imagine what getting "unusual" in terms of AP format might look like, but it's certainly something to chew on.

Maybe a year-long interconnected event ala Drift Crisis? Not literally that, but ya know. Mix of books, APs, standalones, PFS Scenarios. Just go bananas.

If we keep doing faction books, a big LO: Pathfinder Society book would be pretty cool and might fit somewhere in there.


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Aaron absolutely crushing it with drumming hype.


Smurf: Always


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I've said all edition that Edicts and Anathemas are a much more interesting morality system than Alignment. They care about what you believe rather than how you believe it.


Fancy Harrow deck. Wayfinder. Holy symbols. Reproduce a bunch of stuff from Grand Bazaar and Travel Guide.

Evil Hat did some fancy Fate Point tokens. Something similar for hero points could be cool that could double as in-universe currency examples.


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I think Alignment is pretty unnuanced, so I basically block it out outside of basic concepting.


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thorindale wrote:

I believe the redditor's name is u/SlayerCookie

Thanks for the tip! Found the Github Project for the effort.


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We doing a Dynasty Warriors?


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Sanityfaerie wrote:

Well, Spider does have a very Drow feel to it... which goes along with another thing that I've been noticing, where we've been covering territory that has ties to the Darklands. Like, Geb literally has trade links with that ghoul city. We've recently heard about Lost Omens: Highhelm, which definitely has ties as well. Like, the entire place was under the dominion of Droskar for a century or two a while back.

Dark Archive and Book of the Dead are pretty obviously important for Darklands stuff too... though I feel like if they are going to give us a full-on Darklands book... well, that hopeful part of me suggests that they'd want a book of aberrations first, yes?

"Worm" sounds pretty aberrationy to me too... though, again, I'm biased.

Reading up on the structure of the Darklands a bit, there's definitely structure there for a campaign that consists of slowly travelling down through the layers until you hit the enormous vaults at the bottom. It's pretty obviously baked-in, really. You'd need a framing device that made ti worth doing, though, and I don't know that we actually know much about the deeper vaults. "Murder and intrigue in the drow lands" seems like a more likely form, at least at the moment. That's *probably* better as an AP than a standalone, though, if only because it seems like it would be harder to weave into a continuing campaign.

I'll agree that "rust" seems like the sort of thing that might have some cool Rage of the Elements tie-in potential... and for that one I'd expect a standalone, unless they want to have rust and corruption be a real ongoing theme for the Plane of Metal, and they're wanting a full AP to really explore it.

All of this lines up really well with what Michael Sayre tweeted the other day about subtly setting up future stuff.

Edit: Tweet


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Thinking about Eberron has again made me crave more magitech.


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Sure, but you don't have to debate that here. Just say "sounds cool! I'd like X, myself!" Or whatever.


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Yeah. I think d20-based stuff just isn't for you, at least in a way that mass market games are likely to serve.

Anyway, to the skill feat topic: I'd love more higher tier feats that do weird things, like the Consult Spirits line. Medicine has some really neat things. I don't know what that'd look like but really anything where you might pause the game and try to figure out how to represent a thing.


I think I prefer Razmir as an ultimately pathetic failure who abused and killed countless people to finally die in some pitiful and unimpressive way. Consumed by his own ego and failings.


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Get keftiu in here. She'll lose her mind.


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aett wrote:
keftiu wrote:

Ha, that might be cute! Could throw in pig-faced Orcs, too.

It's a little cheeky for my tastes, but there's way to play both ideas completely straight.

I can't believe I forgot pig Orcs (or "porcs", which I always think of when I see them). That would definitely be easier to explain than a mammal-like version of a reptilian ancestry, haha.

We have a nagaji heritage with human torso and snek bottom. "Ease of Explanation" is out the window and I love it.


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I'm gonna cheat a bit and give an Ancestry AND a Versatile Heritage.

Ancestry: Anadi.

I love our spiderfriends and the one I'm playing in SoT is so so much fun. They already have some cool stuff, but I'd like more feats that allow specialization and expansion of their shapeshifting, natural weapons, and spiritual nature. OH! And some stuff to lean into the Grandmother Spider connection.

Likewise, there are many many many different types of spiders. That just screams opportunity for Heritages.

Versatile Heritage: Changeling

I want more of basically everything. More types of Hags represented. Types of changelings that aren't quite so directly related to hags. Types that lean into or push against the Call. Feats, lineages, etc. Whole thing. More more more.

A more general desire: Feat lines that build and expand on earlier features, as I mentioned for Anadi. I've complained that a lot of Ancestry-based natural weapons feel underwhelming for, imo, little meaningful balance payoff. So, if we're going to have kind of underwhelming features, let us feat into them. Let's get weird. And crazy. And crazyweird.


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keftiu wrote:
I wonder if any Azer might sneak into this - they're not technically dwarves, but their Bestiary writeup mentions some having arrived nearby as refugees recently. A timely inclusion with Rage of Elements around the corner!

I've always loved Azer! There's something about our stout burny bois that really calls to me. I've been building them as Ifrit-Dwarves, but a bespoke Ancestry/Heritage would be fun. Certainly more cultural information is welcome, too. The LO books have been some of my favorite gaming guides in several years.


pixierose wrote:

One mythic idea i've had for awhile is.(to help bring it back to the original subject)

Cayden Cailean and Abadar have made a bet. You(the players) have been chosen to represent Cayden. The goal...Successfully pull off a heist in abadars vault.

and Low-level mythic to me, is about progress and potential. Mentors recognizing that one day you might surpass them. Or having unique abilities that make you excel in one way(incredible healing factor or durability but only average strength). Low level mythic would be like street level heroes in comic books. They are capable of incredible feats, sometimes in a very specific way stronger than someone who is overall more powerful. (I hope this makes sense)

Divine heist sounds like a ton of fun.


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VestOfHolding wrote:
...and they're going on a bit of God of War path with sprinkling some Mythender into things.

Ah. A gentleman of culture. /tips-monocle

More seriously... :)

"WatersLethe wrote:
One way to mechanize the narrative powers implied by mythic is having a Mythic currency like hero points that you acquire at a steady rate and spend to let you do something that defies logic from then on.

I'm a big fan of metacurrencies to affect narrative, so this sounds pretty great. My Fate RPG background is showing. What you're describing sounds a lot like how Iron Edda and Scion RPGs handle Scale (different specific mechanics, but similar concepts).


PossibleCabbage wrote:

My thing with the "Mythic as a parallel advancement system" is that I can't really imagine what a "Mythic" level 6 person gets up to.

While mythic heroes do run the gamut from like Beowulf to Achilles to Gilgamesh to Rama, I can't think of any very low level people who could be considered mythic.

I dunno. Punch weirdo cultists in Leng on behalf of some other Dark Power (tm)?

If we take the CRPG system somewhat literally, "Mythic" in the context of PF2 comes to mean "imbued with power outside of the normal class bounds". So, you can be a wizard AND an angel (or whatever). Could you represent that with Free Archetype and Blessed One with an Aasimar Heritage? Sure. But that's just one mechanical representation of it (see the aforementioned magus <=> fighter w/ wizard archetype). I trust the people who make games rules and write stories for a living to think of a neat way to do that in a bespoke way.

Story Idea: Ascendant beings respond to the failing of Rovagug's prison and ultimately become the powers that forge it anew.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Considering how few PCs ever reach high-level, I feel Mythic accessible from level 1 has more potential than if it is restricted to level 20+.

This feels like less of an issue with Paizo doing 10-20 APs and a number of high-level adventures. They'd just put out "Mythic AP" or "Mythic Standalone".

That said: My preference remains a parallel advancement or a more-broad subsystem.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Spiderman as a drow.

Drowderman


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D3stro 2119 wrote:

One idea I could think in terms of playing with an existing cosmology perhaps involving interacting with and altering the very structure of the cosmology itself, starting with bits and pieces and then possible full blown change to the cosmology.

PF2 Mythic created the Gap. RIP.


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Fun Mythic Hook: What happens when a goodly god needs something done under the table?! Start with something simple and escalate from espionage to skirmish to taking part in a war between divine (or quasi-divine) powers.

No need to fight 1v9001 to feel epic. You just have stakes and challenges that fit whatever. In this hypothetical, Paizo is writing both the mechanics AND the adventure. Tangling with gods (or, more realistically, their high up servitors)? Maybe you need something akin to godly power, whatever that form takes.

Like. We have countless non-mythic adventures that can be atomized to "enter dungeon, fight dudes, get the thing" that somehow remain distinctly remembered. Just...think of a "normal" adventure and then raise the stakes to cosmic levels.

Another thing I could see as suitably mythic: Kicking in the doors to Zon-Kuthon's mind palace of torture to rescue the fraying remains of Dou-Bral's essence (or whatever). Explore what happened to him and challenge those what did it.


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The APG has the following in the Consult the Spirits Skill feat:

APG 204 wrote:
Nature allows you to contact the spirits of nature that form leshies, who are born of pure life essence rather than spiritual energy and can answer questions about natural features like the location of nearby water or plant life. Religion reveals the presence of angelic, demonic, or other spirits in service to divine beings, who provide information about sources of powerful positive or negative energy, sacred or profane influences, or the presence of undead. Occultism allows you to contact lingering spirits, psychic echoes of the departed dead, and spirits from beyond reality, who tell you about things like strange auras, effects, or the presence of unnatural occult beings.

No Arcane spirits defined. Nature seems to be in the kami/leshy space. Religion seems to imply there are divine servitors around that you can contact. Occult seems to own the space we would conventionally think of a ghost-like things/hauntings and maybe Old Gods.

Doesn't do much to make a list so much as gives some descriptive context.


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CorvusMask wrote:
Sidenote, not sure how I like nagaji apparently having snake tail ancestry. I think I do like it, but I do kinda feel like its also saying "And we are never having another snek ancestry ever again, see the niche is filled" xP

I somehow doubt it is saying that. Maybe not until we get serpentfolk or something, but yeah. Probably gonna depend more on what makes sense for the region.


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Gisher wrote:
VerBeeker wrote:

My copy went out so I got my copy, and I have to say, loving the art in this book.

** spoiler omitted **

I had thought that my love of reptilian characters was satisfied by Lizardfolk and Kobolds, but what I've been hearing about PF2 Nagaji is really appealing.

All the snek love in Impossible Lands has been great. An incredibly solid book.


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keftiu wrote:
I have a certain weakness for LE martial types, folks like Diomazul and General Susumu. I'd kill for the chance to play a very classic Tyrant someday.

Diomazul is so fun.

"am snek. leave lone. go way. fine. you bugged me. now i will ANNIHILATE YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY LINE AND THE MEMORY OF YOUR NAME WILL BE A CURSE!"

EDIT: Your tyrant comment inspired me to spec out a character.

Surya grew up an orphan in a monastery to Irori. A ganzi elf, he is an exercise in self-loathing. Rejecting what he sees as his soft features and the chaos inherent to his heritage, he chooses to make it everyone else's problem. Projecting a calm, if stony, exterior, Surya knows that fury lies underneath. He has turned to Diomazul to help him master his rage and the chaos in his soul.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Unicore wrote:
I want a blast that is loaves of bread
I see no reason the phytokineticist shouldn't be able to bludgeon you with grain...

Tragic. Another element relying on bludgeoning. Why can't we just give people bread energy?! They are made of carbs! LITERALLY ENERGY!


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keftiu wrote:

Nocticula's dedicated followers in Zirnakaynin are, interestingly enough, very well-suited for being hidden and on the back foot; House Misraria's areas of expertise are assassins and spies! If they needed to hide the change in their faith (or start purging the unredeemable elements of the city), there's almost no one better suited to the task.

It does, conveniently, allow me to clamor for Drow Inquisitors of Nocticula, which is about as indulgent a character concept as I can manage.

EDIT: Does Lozardyn have any real published canon on it? Abomination Vaults doesn't say much.

Haven't always shared your love for the inquisitor but I'm sold now. THE PEOPLE DEMAND THE INQUISITOR!


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Big fan of our smol, round friends. Hugs.


keftiu wrote:
Do we need a separate lore discussion thread for this, as PDFs begin to hit inboxes, or are folks content here in the product page comments? I imagine I'll have a lot of commentary once my subscriber friend can share :>

If the convo is likely to spin away from the product itself, probably a good call for a fresh thread. I'm certainly down to dish when my PDF shows up.


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I mentioned in the god thread that CE stuff tends to strike me as pretty unnuanced. Drow characters could be the window we use to improve that nuance while still being evil.

We know that CE entities are capable of forming long-lived societies, even if it is more rare than not. If Drow are venturing topside more, for whatever reason, it would make sense for diplomats or foreign dignitaries to visit other countries or host visitors to the Darklands (cultural exchance, woo!).

It might be fun to play one of those diplomats. It isn't uncommon for people in diplomatic positions to also be part of whatever passes for the organization's intelligence service, so it doesn't even have to be altruistic. Just examining potential threats via new avenues that had been previously closed.

Separately: I'm a Nocticula obsessive, so she represents a really cool avenue, too.


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Wow. Neat thread. Wish I had found it at the start! I'm going to follow the alignment bucket grouping because easy.

LG - I've really liked Falayna a lot. It is really rare to see a character written specifically from the intersection of "warrior values" and "femininity".
NG - Toss-up between Kurgess and Arshea. I like Kurgess's "improve yourself, bro I got you" energy, and I'm personally really invested in positive sexual expression and openness as sacred characteristics.
CG - Cayden is my bestie. Freedom fighter? Love it. Friend to all? Love it. Potentially derped his way into divinity and just kept on doing his thing? Love it love it love it. Honorable mention goes to the Black Butterfly for all the reasons keftiu mentioned above.

LN - Probably Irori? I dunno. I find legalism to be one of the least interesting mindsets and there is just so much legalism in LN.
N - Nethys and Shyka are my picks here. Both shattered in their own way. Both brilliant in their own way. Manifests entirely uniquely between them, tho. I like the trope of "ope you saw too much rip your mind". Big cosmic horror fan.
CN - The CN bucket has three big ones that I just love: Calistria, Besmara, and Nocticula. I like Calistria for a lot of the reasons I like Arshea/Falayna but the "sacred revenge" angle is especially interesting to me. That said, I'd love an AP or something that gave Calistria some more dimension/screen-time. Besmara is just a cool af pirate. I mean come on. She rules. Nocticula is up there with Cayden for gods I just really love. How 2e handled her transition into divinity, her semi-adoption of New Thassilon/Sorshen (another thing I want to learn more about!), and her story of self-transformation and rejection of the toxic elements in her life (even those she created herself).

LE - This is gonna be weird, relative to what I said for LN. The legalism of LE REALLY appeals to me because it is how I see the reality of legalism. It is ultimately selfish. Also... I just really, REALLY like fiends of all kinds. I was a goth kid. Sue me. Asmodeus as the ultimate representation of The Prince, while also being affable in his own way, and I really want to know if/how he leverages what he did with Rovagug to influence the world and other gods into the present. I like Zon-Kuthon because goth kid and cosmic horror. His relationship with Shelyn is fascinating and, again as keftiu said, the spirit wolf father thing is really neat. Achaekek is the last one here because I love assassins and am especially interested in those that are backed by a strict code or belief. His unclear and shifting backstory is also really interesting. I'd love to learn more about him, but I'm not sure we should. I dunno.
NE - A lot to love here. Norgorber is really cool. The Starstone, his multiple aspects, assassins remain cool, I like spy stuff. So much to love in one mysterious package. Urgathoa is really cool because I love the undead and the story of how she rejected Pharasma's design to continue existing is neat. Arazni's tragic story is so fascinating and interesting. In the same way that Nocticula's story of self-transformation really speaks to me, there's something similar happening here with Arazni. I also want to see her and Iomadae sort out their stuff, if even by proxy (adventurers).
CE - This is weird, right? I generally think that a lot of CE stuff is incredibly unnuanced. They do whatever their "kill whatever I feel like" thing is in whatever way they do it. And maybe that's fine. It just doesn't generally appeal to me from a character perspective. I like Nyarlathotep as an aspect of corruption and the rest of the Old/Outer/Great-Old-Gods as a contrast to the more knowable gods of the setting. I really like Lamashtu's positioning as demon-god-mother and I have a character concept for a CN goblin who worships her as Nana. That's not to say the rest of the CE (and particularly Demon Lord) set aren't cool or fun, I just think they serve best as backdrop or van art.


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CorvusMask wrote:
I'm now wondering, what does nagaji/sekmin toes look like

Dude... You can't just say stuff like this online. XD

More seriously: Everything here looks incredible. Can't wait to read up on my new stout rhino friends.


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Zaister wrote:
It seems the PDF importer is no longer maintained after Frozen Flame 1.

And to head off any potential rage...

My understanding is that the individual who was maintaining the importer had planned to stop even earlier due to the sheer amount of effort it took as a volunteer. They had continued longer until Paizo could get their modules rolling.

I imagine that if someone new wanted to start maintaining a similar project, that'd be fine.


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A lot of work goes into making these modules completely separate from the adventures themselves. The people doing that should be properly compensated for their work. If that puts them outside your price point, that is unfortunate but better than stiffing the people doing the labor.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
To be fair, if any class would use a weapon as weird as the flickmace, it is the Thaumaturge.

Flickmace with a weighted incense-ball on the end sounds fun and on-theme.


Saedar wrote:
Errenor wrote:
Saedar wrote:
Elemental Blast crit specializations were fun.

Did you catch it's only one per character even if they're universalist? You must choose one.

I did not, but I don't think it came up except for Earth and Fire (for the Universalist). Player may have caught it even if I didn't. The Earth Kineticist had fun with knocking people down.

Follow-up on this. Talked with the player and they didn't notice either. Benefited from Water and Fire crit effects. I suppose this means that I can at least say that I didn't find open access to be unbalancing in the slightest, so much as Dedicated still feeling like it needs something really special.


Errenor wrote:
Saedar wrote:
Elemental Blast crit specializations were fun.

Did you catch it's only one per character even if they're universalist? You must choose one.

I did not, but I don't think it came up except for Earth and Fire (for the Universalist). Player may have caught it even if I didn't. The Earth Kineticist had fun with knocking people down.

Errenor wrote:

Also

Saedar wrote:
If you activate a lasting effect using an Elemental Impulse, does that effect remain if you Gather a different element? (Example: 'Wings of Air' and then switch to Fire.)
Definitely yes. Because 'nothing says no' is enough. So fly and have auras as much as you like, only you can't support flight with impulses unless you have air.

And that was the player's reasoning. In a normal game I'd have absolutely just allowed it. The thing that gave me pause for the playtest was that all the language around Impulses and such is very "you must have the Element Gathered". Just think it is worth tightening up some of the language around the topic.

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