How to defend against no save spells?

[Zephyre14]

I am sure this is somewhere in the depths of the forums, but I can't find it.

How do you defend against spells with no save?

In this particular case I am looking at Power Word Blind/Stun/Kill spells?

I know they have the HP threshold that you should just try to stay above, but if being used against PC's by a monster that is APL+2 or 3 or worse, the PC's may not even be high enough level to be above the HP threshold unless they are a CON monster Barbarian or if they were enough higher, one AOE (fireball or something of the sort) will take them below the threshold.

I also know that power word Kill inparticular can be defended with Death Ward at least allowing a save, but what about the lower two? Stun inparticular makes you useless and it doesn't even allow you to undo it yourself with a potion/wand/spell/cure item since you get no actions.

Any advice against no save spells? Power Word Stun/Blind being prime examples?

[Tarik Blackhands]

Spell resistance is your only option but in my experience SR is more of a hassle than its worth since your buddies need to roll against it to buff you.

Basically other than that have lots of HP and have contingent items to mitigate the bad stuff, there's no real preemptive ways to handle it. Welcome to rocket tag basically.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

Spell Turning works. As do Rod of Absorption and that Ioun Stone that does the same thing.

[Louise Bishop]

Spell Resistance (terrible option but is option)
Spell Turning (A Favorite of mine)
Spell Absorption, Greater (only up to 6th level spells.)
Globe of Invulnerability

You can get clever and do other things. Like Break line of sight of Caster with a well-placed wall or sending them to another plane/place.

You can look for spells that give you Immunities.

You can preempt with a contingency.

You can try to counter those types of spells in various ways.

[Rysky]

Ready an action to attack them when they cast something.

[Gallant Armor]

Given that Power Word Kill is an enchantment [compulsion] spell, protection from evil (or other alignment as appropriate) would block it. Clear Spindle ioun stone in a wayfinder gives you this effect constantly.

[Balkoth]

Nope.

"Protection From Evil: Does this work against all charm and compulsion effects? Or just against charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as charm person, command, and dominate person (and thus not effects like sleep or confusion, as the caster does not have ongoing influence or puppet-like control of the target)?

The latter interpretation is correct: protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person; it doesn't work on sleep or confusion. (Sleep is a border case for this issue, but the designers feel that "this spell overrides your brain's sleep centers" is different enough than "this spell overrides your resistance to commands from others.")"

[QuidEst]

Temporary hitpoints count against Power Word X spells.

[wolaberry]

Globe of Invulnerability only stops 3rd or 4th (lesser and normal) so the Power Words are too high to stop.
Spell Turning has a random element for how high it will block. Works great otherwise.
Greater Spell Immunity (Cleric 8) will stop Stun and Blind. If you have access to 8th level cleric spells there are probably better options. Antimagic Field comes to mind.

[Louise Bishop]

wolaberry wrote:

Globe of Invulnerability only stops 3rd or 4th (lesser and normal) so the Power Words are too high to stop.

3rd Level touch spells like vampiric touch with no saves as well as lower levels like Shocking grasp...suck on one Maguses.

4th Level- Enervation

there is a hand full of them at lower levels that you can negate in a 10-foot radius.

[Dave Justus]

The best defense is a good offense.

[Gallant Armor]

Balkoth wrote:

Nope.

"Protection From Evil: Does this work against all charm and compulsion effects? Or just against charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as charm person, command, and dominate person (and thus not effects like sleep or confusion, as the caster does not have ongoing influence or puppet-like control of the target)?

The latter interpretation is correct: protection from evil only works on charm and compulsion effects where the caster is able to exercise control over the target, such as command, charm person, and dominate person; it doesn't work on sleep or confusion. (Sleep is a border case for this issue, but the designers feel that "this spell overrides your brain's sleep centers" is different enough than "this spell overrides your resistance to commands from others.")"

That's a shame. Emergency Force Sphere would be a good option in that case.

[David knott 242]

Bumping up your touch AC is a defense against spells that require touch attacks. I do realize that most characters do reach a point where getting a high enough touch AC becomes impossible.

[Zephyre14]

Thank you to everyone who has replied. Let me consolidate what I have seen so far.

--Prevent the attack with an AOO or readied action

--Not be a valid target (ie too much health, temporary health counts)

--High touch AC in the case of touch attack based effects

--Contingency Spell to immediately remove the effect

-SR (probably not going to work for how low what you are able to get is and how high the caster check these guys will be throwing is likely to be.)

-Spell turning (10 min/level or till used whichever less, Just make sure you roll high enough on the D4, is only one use)

-Rod of Absorption *Must be in hand* (50 total spell levels)

-Lavender and Green Ellipsoid Ioun Stone *Requires prepared action*(lvl 8 or less spells, 50 total spell levels)

-Lavender and Green Ellipsoid Ioun Stone Cracked *Requires prepared action*(lvl 2 or less spells, 10 total spell levels)

-Lavender and Green Ellipsoid Ioun Stone Flawed *Requires prepared action*(lvl 6 or less spells [and take damage], 50 total spell levels)

-Pale Lavender Ellipsoid Ioun Stone *Requires prepared action*(lvl 4 or less spells, 20 total spell levels)

-Pale Lavender Ellipsoid Ioun Stone Cracked *Requires prepared action*(lvl 1 spells 5 total spell levels)

-Pale Lavender Ellipsoid Ioun Stone Flawed *Requires prepared action*(lvl 3 or less spells [and take damage], 20 total spell levels)

-Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (lvl 3 or less spells)

-Globe of Invulnerability (lvl 4 or less spells)

-Spell Immunity (lvl 4 or lower, 1 SPECIFIC spell per 4 caster levels, 10min/lvl, spell must be effected by SR)

-Greater Spell Immunity (lvl 8 or lower, 1 SPECIFIC spell per 4 caster levels, 10min/lvl, spell must be effected by SR)

Of these the only ones that would work in the specifically brutal case of Power Word Stun would be AOO's/Readied Actions, not be a valid target, spell turning (need at least a 2 on the roll), Rod of Absorption *must be in hand*, Lavender and Green Ellipsoid Ioun Stone *must ready action*, and greater spell immunity *must put into effect on exact correct spell*

[Noir le Lotus]

Nobody mentionned the ring of counterspells ? It's a decent defense against a specified threat.

[Lady-J]

immunity to blindness, death and stunned would help

[Zephyre14]

Lady-J wrote:

immunity to blindness, death and stunned would help

That could help, how would you propose going about that?

[Lady-J]

Zephyre14 wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

immunity to blindness, death and stunned would help

That could help, how would you propose going about that?

become undead or a construct will net you those immunities

[Nixitur]

Being an Occultist with Globe of Negation would also work. It's like Globe of Invulnerability, but instead of negating only spells of certain levels, you can negate all spells, but have an upper limit on the total number of spell levels it can negate. It's also stationary instead of centered on you.
Since it's a class-specific option, it's not too useful for most characters, but it's a pretty damn good class-specific option.

[Volkard Abendroth]

Cast Obscuring Mist, Sleetstorm, or an equivalent spell/effect.

Greater Blind Fighting + Sleet Storm wrecks most encounters, caster or not.

[Cavall]

Bards adding hit dice would help vs power words too. Not always about courage.

[ZenithTN]

An illusion where a fake version of you walks into the room to soak up the alpha strike?

Or turn the closed door invisible, such that there is line of sight, but not line of effect?

Readied action to break line of sight or line of effect? The humble obscuring mist should work?

[Chromantic Durgon <3]

Abomination psychics end up with impressive SR. If anyones interested.

[Scrapper]

Simply avoid being a valid target, step behind a wall/full concealment, cast a wall of Iron/Stone/Ice, Cast Secure Shelter*(this one gets over looked a lot)*edit* sorry, Tiny Hut

[Mystic_Snowfang]

Kill the one in the dress

[avr]

The power words have close range. Being 100' away works unless the caster also has and uses reach spell.

If the one taking the hit is disposable - summons, simulacra, whatever - defending hardly matters.

[NoTongue]

Unless you specifically know you are going up against these spells you can't prepare for all of them, the only one you should really be worried about is power word kill and there should be no adventure that put's you up against someone with PROPER 9th level casting in the first 12 or so levels.

You may have one tricky fight where a specific monster has a one off use of power word blind at level 7 but it's not something you will ever truly need to worry about.

In his adventuring career the wizard should be far more worried about the blindness/deafness spell, it's only 2nd level.

[justaworm]

Antimagic Field

[Ryze Kuja]

The best defense you can utilize vs any caster that you don't want casting something at you, such as a No Save spell, is Readying an Action.

"When 'Caster A' begins casting a spell, I want to Ready an Action to cast 'fireball' or shoot an arrow at Caster A."

So your turn gets delayed, but if that Caster A performs the pre-requisite that triggers your Readied Action, you get to go first, and then the Caster A must overcome a Concentration Check of (10 + total dmg dealt + lvl of spell to be cast).

Also, if you have a good idea of what the caster is capable of, abuse the terrain of the scenario. Get concealment or cover to prevent line of sight from rocks, trees, buildings. You can even get cover from an Ally or an Enemy through good positioning.

Lastly, you can get items that save you from these things. Like others mentioned earlier about Ioun Stones preventing death, for instance.

No Save spells suck, but there are ways of dealing with them. I would establish a combat protocol with your group to ready actions vs. dangerous enemies in order to thwart their casting (but the entire group doesn't need to ready an action to make this work, only one person in your party who can deal a big dmg hit, preferably from range, will lock that caster down forever). Trying to do this with a melee vs a dangerous caster is less ideal, because of fly, invisibility, teleport, etc.

[Crayfish Hora]

There was another thread where people told stories. One was about a wizard who became the target of several readied actions from guys with bows. So he told the DM, "I wave my hands and chant." The enemy fires, thinking he's casting a spell, but he didn't and now they're dead. The end.

The moral of the story is make sure the caster doesn't fool you into attacking him too early. Pick up Spellcraft and educate yourself! And know your DM! My DM doesn't know nor thinks he needs to know concealment rules. So we don't play with them. This means everyone has line of sight all the time, unless another wizard specifically casts something that obscures vision.

If your DM is a joker, like me, I'll totes have the wizard wiggle his fingers at the PCs and they will waste their readied actions, not knowing that he wasn't casting at that time. Moving your hands and speaking is a free action!

I mean, if all else fails, just bring more wizards in to fight whatever is casting those no save spells at you. It's a vicious cycle.

[ShroudedInLight]

The question is, what kind of action is waving your hand and chanting?

[John Mechalas]

Crayfish Hora wrote:

If your DM is a joker, like me, I'll totes have the wizard wiggle his fingers at the PCs and they will waste their readied actions, not knowing that he wasn't casting at that time. Moving your hands and speaking is a free action!\

First of all, this sounds an awful lot like a feint which would require a Bluff skill check and a standard action. There is no way this should be a free action. And even if I, as the GM, were feeling generous in that regard, there's absolutely no way I'd allow you to do it and then follow it up with actually casting a spell. That is clearly a feint, which is a standard action, which means you can't cast a spell with a casting time longer than a move action. If your GM is allowing you to get away with this, then you are deep in house rule territory and abusing the action economy.

Using a closer-to-the-rules interpretation: If you succeed, you get shot at and take no meaningful action. If it fails, you don't get shot at but take no meaningful action. So I don't really see the point of it (unless you are deliberately trying to draw fire towards yourself, and away from someone/something else).

[Wultram]

Well I would personally say it depends on if the opponent has spellcraft ranks if it would work anyways regardless of action the fake out takes. Still there are ways around readied actions of that sort. Quickened cantrip(this works better on spontanous casters), followed by the actual spell you were going to cast.

[John Mechalas]

Blindness sucks and is debilitating, but it doesn't take you out of the action. A caster can still use touch spells or spells that don't require targets, for example summoning.

Counter blindness, arguably including Power Word Blind, with Countless Eyes. You get new eyes that last 1 hour/level. Though of course you can be targeted again.

If your GM rules that Power Word Blind would apply to those new eyes (because it's a mind effect), then choose Echolocation, Beast Shape III or IV, or Form of the Dragon III, to get something with blindsense. Need something better? With Beastshape IV you can get tremorsense, too.

If you can convince your opponents to take a 1 to 10-minute break in the heat of battle, there's always Eagle Eye and Arcane Sight. ;)

Or, have your party cleric place Remove Blindness/Deafness in your Ring of Spell Storing.

Recovering from the stunned condition is a lot harder. You have to either phone a friend, or have a contingency of some sort. Ring of Counterspells doesn't go high enough for Power Word Stun, so for that you'd need a Ring of Spell Turning (which will eliminate the variability in Spell Turning's effect). Options here are limited, but PWS is an 8th level spell, so, yeah.

[Gilfalas]

Have a caster in your party ready to counterspell either using the same spells or by using Greater/Dispell Magic.

[Vatras]

All of them are mind-affecting. Something that defends against that would help. The easy solution used to be Mindblank, but it lost the "immune to mindaffecting" clause.

The power words have also another weakness: they are all single target. They won't take out your group, only one person at a time.
They also have the usual targeting requirements. If you can somehow remain unseen, you cannot be targeted (unless the enemy has special senses). Invisibility, illusions or polymorphing for an underfloor approach can help, as can darkness, fog or other forms of cover.
Then those spells are verbal, and silence will foil the caster. Maybe putting the silence on an object and standing with it next to the caster will shut him down.

Everything else was already said.

[JDLPF]

Don't dump Con.

[claymade]

Zephyre14 wrote:

Of these the only ones that would work in the specifically brutal case of Power Word Stun would be AOO's/Readied Actions, not be a valid target, spell turning (need at least a 2 on the roll)

Just a note: in the case of Spell Turning, while you'd need at least a 2 on the roll to get a guaranteed deflection of that particular spell, even if you only get a 1 your odds are still pretty good. Per Spell Turning's wording:

"When you are targeted by a spell of higher level than the amount of spell turning you have left, that spell is partially turned. Subtract the amount of spell turning left from the spell level of the incoming spell, then divide the result by the spell level of the incoming spell to see what fraction of the effect gets through. For damaging spells, you and the caster each take a fraction of the damage. For nondamaging spells, each of you has a proportional chance to be the one who is affected."

So even if your luck on the initial roll is bad, you're still only shy of perfect deflection by one, and for a high level spell like that you've still got a much greater chance that it'll be the opponent who'll end up on the unpleasant end of that "proportional chance to be the one who is affected".

[VRMH]

Zephyre14 wrote:

How do you defend against spells with no save?

In this particular case I am looking at Power Word Blind/Stun/Kill spells?

Silence.

[RDM42]

ShroudedInLight wrote:

The question is, what kind of action is waving your hand and chanting?

If you are doing it enough to mimick a spell, then it takes the sort of action a spell would.

[Kayerloth]

- Use range, distance
Specifically vs Power Word variants at 20th level without metamagic the maximum range is 75ft.
- Sanctuary
Protects against any directly targeted attack including targeted spells, further they cannot attack you directly for the duration of Sanctuary. Use many of the same DC boosting tactics you might use for your offensive spells to help Sanctuary remain effective at high (and higher) levels.

As for your DM faking it, all it takes is Spellcraft by pretty much anyone in the group to counter such shenanigans without your GM investing actual feats and skills for the npc to do so. Spellcraft vs his faking is a no action 'action' followed by verbal communication of his silliness assuming you can't do yourself.

That's all I can I have that hasn't already been covered.

[RealAlchemy]

Gunslinger : "I ready an action to shoot the enemy wizard using vital strike, deadly aim, etc when our wizards says `Go!'"

Wizard : "I shout `Go!' when my spellcraft tells me the enemy wizard is casting offensive magic."

[Plausible Pseudonym]

RealAlchemy wrote:

Gunslinger : "I ready an action to shoot the enemy wizard using vital strike, deadly aim, etc when our wizards says `Go!'"

Wizard : "I shout `Go!' when my spellcraft tells me the enemy wizard is casting offensive magic."

Going out of turn requires an immediate action or a standard action to ready a free, immediate, move, or standard action. Since the wizard has to ready his "go" he might as well just cast a damaging spell and let the gunslinger take his regular action.

[JDLPF]

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

Going out of turn requires an immediate action or a standard action to ready a free, immediate, move, or standard action. Since the wizard has to ready his "go" he might as well just cast a damaging spell and let the gunslinger take his regular action.

Nope.

Combat Rules wrote:

Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than a few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.

Spellcraft against an enemy occurs off turn as a reaction to their spellcasting. Speaking is a Free Action that you can perform even if it isn't your turn. The strategy is completely RAW legal.

[Volkard Abendroth]

Mystic_Snowfang wrote:

Kill the one in the dress

Bum russing the guy is the dress is a mistake.

He's the kensai with Greater Blind Fighting and Sleet Storm.

[Scrapper]

VRMH wrote:

Zephyre14 wrote:

How do you defend against spells with no save?

In this particular case I am looking at Power Word Blind/Stun/Kill spells?

Silence.

I was thinking Silence as well, but the Power Word line of spells ignores Silence. "whether the creature can hear the word or not." So being inside a silence spell area would not help.

[RealAlchemy]

Scrapper wrote:

VRMH wrote:

Zephyre14 wrote:

How do you defend against spells with no save?

In this particular case I am looking at Power Word Blind/Stun/Kill spells?

Silence.

I was thinking Silence as well, but the Power Word line of spells ignores Silence. "whether the creature can hear the word or not." So being inside a silence spell area would not help.

Silence the caster and the word is not spoken. Can't cast a spell with verbals if you can't talk.

This means lipstitch is also an option.

[Tusk the Half-Orc]

The players in my ROTRL campaign are particularly terrified of Maze. Find the Path will get you out of it, if you can cast it, and Fox's Cunning can give anyone a +4 enhancement boost to intelligence to help with the checks to escape (but unless you're able to cast it yourself, you had better get the wizard to cast it on you in advance, or a carry a potion on you wherever you go.).

[Kayerloth]

Tusk the Half-Orc wrote:

The players in my ROTRL campaign are particularly terrified of Maze. Find the Path will get you out of it, if you can cast it, and Fox's Cunning can give anyone a +4 enhancement boost to intelligence to help with the checks to escape (but unless you're able to cast it yourself, you had better get the wizard to cast it on you in advance, or a carry a potion on you wherever you go.).

Note that pretty much any planar travel spell will allow you to escape including Plane Shift (specifically mentioned) though at least within the CRB it's a pretty short list.

Silence on the caster is a very short term solution typically as either you've given the caster a saving throw (in which case may as well hit them with something more disabling) or they move a short distance and you are still well within range for a Power Word or most anything else they might do that isn't touch or requires you to hear it. Silence around yourself is rather a mixed bag and rather dependent on what your foe(s) can do and if you know about it. But it will protect you from spells with the sonic descriptor as noted in the text of Silence. Not sure just how many such spells exist that are both no save and have those descriptors. On the other hand that moment might be all the party needs to put a better solution in place.

In the a bit off the wall category Repulsion might work against touch and Close range spells. Can't say I've ever seen it used or memorized but that just says 'Scroll!' to me if you're a wizard.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

Kayerloth wrote:

Tusk the Half-Orc wrote:

The players in my ROTRL campaign are particularly terrified of Maze. Find the Path will get you out of it, if you can cast it, and Fox's Cunning can give anyone a +4 enhancement boost to intelligence to help with the checks to escape (but unless you're able to cast it yourself, you had better get the wizard to cast it on you in advance, or a carry a potion on you wherever you go.).

Note that pretty much any planar travel spell will allow you to escape including Plane Shift (specifically mentioned) though at least within the CRB it's a pretty short list.

Almost any planar travel spell would make you much worse off. The problem with being Mazed is generally that you're separated from your companions and can't assist them while they're killed more easily through divide and conquer. Plane shifting within 5-500 miles or undertaking an hours long Shadow Walk to get in the vicinity doesn't help much. You're better off rolling that Int check until you succeed, unless you're a Cha/Wis caster who has both Plane Shift and Teleport Without Error and would rather blow those spells and lose those rounds rather than take a chance at succeeding on the DC 20 check.