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I agree with Avr
Also what would you be building to with your feats otherwise?


Aren’t other characters investing in other feats to make their fighting styles better than their base too?

Like this seems like the shield bashing character slowly builds into a stronger character through acquisition of feats. Which is the point?

So what are the other characters doing with their feats?

For example, the dual wielding character could be building to a crit fishing/crit passing/crit debuffer, or any other sort of build that brings something additional to the basic concept of a dual wielding character?

The two weapon guy could be going into a hurtful, intimidation build for example.

Basically it seems like you’re looking at what a sword and board character can do with heavy feat investment to broaden the power of the style.

And comparing it to two handed fighter and a two weapon fighter without considering what feats they could be investing in to do the same, to elevate that style of fighting so that they don’t become obsolete.


Oh cool :)

Although I’d probably pick different spells, slay living isn’t doing very relevant damage at level 18 and although destruction is a big hit, for that DC you could be doing more terrific things.

Chains of light to target reflex, this one is particularly nice.
Waves of Ecstacy is strong for Will saves
Implosion is a stronger version of destruction (also wale of the banshee has its upsides)
And plane shift can be a really effective method of killing too :)


I honestly never paid any attention to new releases I just get suddenly caught by surprise when there’s a cool new spell or something.

The reason I’m sad is because a small circle will get smaller as people leave PF1 for whatever reason.

I also tried making a PF2 character and I got overwhelmed again. Although I do have a habit of doing all from 1-20 when I make a character.

Perhaps when I get the book, it’ll work.


MidsouthGuy wrote:

What I'm really feeling down about is that my group will soon be disbanding, and now I will have to struggle to find a group playing the game that I actually want to play. Finding people that played Pathfinder instead of 5e was difficult when I had to do it a few years ago. Finding a group that plays PF1 now is going to be next to impossible. Sure, there are groups still playing older games, but they are usually made up of friends who have been playing together for years and generally aren't looking for new players. The lack of content, limited customization, number caps, and arbitrary restrictions in PF2 and 5e kill any hope of having fun for me if I try playing those. Jumping ship to a different system that I actually enjoy just puts me back in the same boat of struggling to find people who want to play something other than 5e. So now I will have to spend an unreasonable length of time seeking a new group that's playing what I like the most, play/run a system that I genuinely don't enjoy, or stop gaming altogether.

And that SUCKS.

Living in the UK I have literally never found a game of pathfinder or group pre-existing

I only get to play if I’m GM and then I’m not playing.

For a brief glorious 6 months at uni I had a group and gosh what a joy that was. But even then it was only because I reached out to several gaming societies at uni and asked if any knew of pathfinder and a couple people turned up.


Could you set a little bit of time aside to work out what happened to each character? Possibly with the player, make it fit certain personalities.

Could one have got side tracked on the journey home and saved some other people/be saving some other people.
Could some of them have found a family and settled down.
Is it possible any of them could have fallen? Or turned Tyrant (the anti paladin archetype) for Cheliax?
And have some of them die in the reclamation?

Give each there own mini story in collaboration with their player?


Wow how did you manage that? :)


Well yeah I honestly find Arcanist probably the least attractive caster class to play.

With Sorc Spell progression speed and wizard spell slots they just seem so painful to play and I think that blasting is probably the way to most easily display that problem. They’re more spell slot poor than any other full caster. Blasting is generally more spell slot hungry.

+you can take orc bloodline for more fun :) or + havoc on a Sorc is how I’d make a battering blaster caster.

Human

1st feats Spell focus and spell specialisation (magic missile)

From first level you can do 2d4+6 with magic missile,

You don’t need to pump charisma crazy high cause magic missile into Battering blast doesn’t require spell saves

So from there you build into point blank and precise shot, pick up spell pen and build towards perfect spell.


Meirril wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Spell specialisation and varisian tattoo work too.

It’s a bit tricky to get +10CL but +5 is easy enough the highest I can think is as follows.

1 ioun stone, 1 varisian tattoo, 2 Spell specialisation, 2 potent magic, 3 perfect spell for 9CL.

Prayer beads of karma can provide a further 4 to make 13.

To use Prayer beads of Karma you need to be able to cast a divine spell. To do that...you need a class that gives you a divine spell casting class feature. If you as an Arcanist learn a spell off of a divine casting list, it is still an arcane spell when you cast it. So it is possible, but it requires a dip, or really strange circumstances.

DC 20 UMD check to replicate a class feature...

Never tried UMD?

Meirril wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Blood havoc doesn’t blend with an Arcanist

It only boosts bloodrager and sorcerer spells.

Technically correct, but since its from an archetype that says treat your arcanist levels as sorcerer levels I'd allow it in my game. So I think it is worth asking the GM if it would be allowed.

Treating your arcanist level as your sorc level does not mean treating your Arcanist spells as Sorc Spells.

They're entirely different things.

If you allow it at you table thats fine but I'd call it a house rule. And a pretty huge buff to blood Arcanists.


Spell specialisation and varisian tattoo work too.

It’s a bit tricky to get +10CL but +5 is easy enough the highest I can think is as follows.

1 ioun stone, 1 varisian tattoo, 2 Spell specialisation, 2 potent magic, 3 perfect spell for 9CL.

Prayer beads of karma can provide a further 4 to make 13.


Blood havoc doesn’t blend with an Arcanist

It only boosts bloodrager and sorcerer spells.


I have to say I tried to look at PF2 several times and it feels like wading through treacle
Not sure why that it.

I think I’d be more inclined to move over to 5e since it’s so much more played and popular than pf2

And still always start by proposing pathfinder 1 to people I meet who are new. Rather than ever really suggest pf2.


I wouldn’t say that not requiring healing spells means something is wrong.

All that tells me is your party is either good at using terrain and control spells.
Or has high AC and saves

It’s not that hard for well built parties to dominate on CR encounters, especially since variation between the strength of monsters of the same CR is absolutely ginormous. Mind blowingly huge in some cases.

Also have you been using single enemy encounters? Cause it’s a lot easier not to take damage in those encounters.


I made a similar build.

I went down the route of getting a familiar for scouting and character development reasons.

I also went down the line of Deific obedience to pick up some fun powers and again for character development


Divine spark smacks of an Oracle to me, several mysteries would make sense for it dark tapestry for Azathoth for example.


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The idea of getting entangle to help enable your ranged party isn’t a bad idea

But I would say consider taking the swamp grasp hex instead, leaving your patron open.

Thereby allowing you to take the trickster patron, it has some very powerful spells including mirror image, which is good because Witches biggest weakness is defensive casting.

Also, trickster makes sense for an 11 year old.


I think Psychics get a lot of those sorts of spells.


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+ you don’t lose any more BAB from taking a second level


Ability focus can certainly be argued, would require GM approval, but it’s there.


Accursed Hex and Split Hex both exist. They’re feats that improve hexes :) split hex in particular is very strong


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There is absolutely nothing that requires a power gamer to not roleplay. This is a fallacy. Being good at making functional characters does not mean you can’t play the character.

I myself consider myself an optimiser, I pick a concept and I try to make it work as well as possible without picking choices that don’t fit that concept.

I have also acted in the theatre, in lady Windermere fan and the woman in black, I have studied acting and have taken improv classes. I take Roleplay just as seriously.


Oh damn that’s a shame, i guess I’ll have to go with plan B.

The butterfly figment shows him the moon in his dreams


I mean sure but their ability only works like darkvision
It isn’t literally darkvision and explicitly calls out that they can read which means they can see a picture on a page.

If I can see a picture on a page I can see a reflection in a mirror. That’s my opinion on it anyway.

I don’t think we will get to the bottom of that one though
Lol


Pan, definitely not a Kitsune wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
It explicitly calls out that they can read though, so I don’t see how they couldn’t see a reflection.

A reflection is, well, reflected light. Darkvision somehow tells how much light would be reflected if an object was hit by light (how light/dark a surface is) while ignoring the presence or absence of actual light.

And then stops working in supernatural darkness, just because.

Normally, this isn't an issue because everyone else also can see light, but Astomoi explicitly can't - they just have Darkvision, and the effects of that are poorly thought through in my eyes.

Besides, as I said, if reflections are allowed, what's stopping them from carrying a mirror and looking into the distance through that?
If reflections were allowed to bypass their 60ft visual distance limit, it seems significant enough for them to mention it.

Eh I think it could be easily overlooked

Literally all vision relies on reflection

There’s no physical difference between looking at a reflection in a lake and looking at words on a page. As far as I know anyway

So I feel like if a DM wanted to have a problem with that I’d call bull on grounds of arbitrary nonsense.

Also I don’t see how them being able to use a mirror to awkwardly see the reflections of things further away brakes anything really. It makes sense if a creature has physical limitations it figures out ways around em.

Humans can’t kick down trees to we made toothed saw blades. Or whatever.


It explicitly calls out that they can read though, so I don’t see how they couldn’t see a reflection.

My thinking was that as a child he used to marvel at the reflection of a moon in a still lake

Also have you ever seen a moonbeam in the woods? It’s really an amazing thing to witness and I figure it would be more crazy with dark vision.

I did also consider Ammil and Petrichor but he’d tell people to call him pet :)

EDIT: Ooo what if he had a given and a chosen name!

Given Petrichor
Chosen Moonwake


Lair actions might be stalagmites growing out of a cave floor to impale people or lava surging up in a volcanic area.


Holy s*~@ I remember that episode now!

EDIT: luckily I found this list, think I might name him Moonwake

Clickty click.


Because he’s got the warmest heart!


I mean that’s assuming they full understand how this the encounter works.

I could easily see people mistaking “bad manners” for “provoking an attack” as opposed to a minor diplomacy debuff.

I don’t mean to be a Debbie downer negative nelly, but this encounter screams to me:
Players aren’t gonna read it the way you the DM intends. I’m sure it’s happened to most if not all of us at some point and this screaming that.

I just don’t see players feeling inclined to bend over backwards to talk to a b+~%@y monster who is actively damaging them to begin with.

Ultimately you know your group better I do and I may well be way off the beaten path. But I feel like it might help to have a fresh pair of eyes on it.

Regarding adding to an encounter for fighting. Have you thought about lair actions?


That description though, naked mannequin of the night!

I live!

Edit: also pan where did you get the word petrichor from? Did you just know it?

Cause I’m thinking a similar vibe but to do with the road/travelling but don’t know where to start.


@Pan - I would say thats probably a discussion with my GM.

I love your naming convention idea.

@avr - I can see how it might seem difficult on the face, but I don't think its actually all that hard. He can see 60ft in front of him and read a map. What more do you need to be able to do? Going off the beaten path can be tough, but there are easy ways around it. One that occurred to me was leaving a scent marker if he did want to go off path.

Also he can cast Know Direction as a Knack, meaning he should find it pretty f~~#ing hard to get lost.

As an aside I'm planning to get a figment butterfly familiar to use share senses with once he hits 6th level. Also I think it leans into his Desna vibes. Tis gonna be a blue one with little white flecks, cause her colours are blue and white :). After that he's gonna go deific obedience :)

Regarding naming, yeah I'm really feeling Pans naming idea, its very clever. Just gonna think of one that suits. I'm thinking perhaps something that works into the curiosity/traveller vibe.

@blahphers - Regarding language, I'm planning for him to start with 18int, he could easily know, Elvish, Dwarfish, Gnomish, Halfling and Orc. With just one rank in Linguistics.

Meaning they could communicate with all the most common races in their common tongue.

Also do any of y'all have any idea if Astomoi are genderless? cause I'm struggling lol.


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Baba Yaga is also quite possibly the most powerful statted thing in the entirety of pathfinder.

She has the ability, Queen of Witches, meaning she knows all wizard spells, all witch spells, and can create arcane versions of any divine spells she wants. She can also create her own artefacts.

The things she can do are pretty much as far from the standard as a character can be.

A lv20/Mythic10 PC is CR25. She is CR30.

Thats the gap we're working with. And yes CR is a loose marker at best, but she's pretty much the most deserving of the CR30 of any creature.

So my point is, yes perhaps its possible but generally "Baba Yaga can do it" isn't a very compelling argument unless you're a caster, casting 9th level spells already.

Add to that, symbol spells components are poisonous and I kinda feel like any symbol you put on your skin is gonna get rubbed off real quick, cause skin is folded and moving and stretching and bending.

My solution would be some kind of metal or stone or wooden tablets you could incorporate into your armour or cloak or whatever, which house the symbols. If you really had your heart set of this kind of thing.


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Oooo this is exciting :)

0: I kinda find this one annoying because its so strong its better than most of the tailored to class options. Which kinda enrages me!

1: Agree

2: This one just feels terrible, but then I don't know what I'd want to do with the rogue.

3: I feel like this one just depends on the kind of bard you want to be. It feels weirdly close to something a mesmerist would do though.

4: Agreed

5: I kinda find this one boring to be honest, I kind of find clerics boring though. I feel like something to do with making the channel more fun would be better.

6: I agree this is very NPC vibe, I also feel like the +8 bonus is mechanically very strong.

7: I feel like the one is good if your favoured enemy features heavily in a game you're playing. But the +8 again would be a safer bet for consistency (just to re-iterate, I hate that +8)

8: This feels, just worse than mighty rage.

9: I actually felt conflicted about this one to be honest, especially for the unchained monk. I find it hard to pick.

11: Oh I think this is very dependant from Sorc to Sorc. I have a Verdant Sorc and a especially a vestige sorc who could probably find some more use in a secondary bloodline. Some bloodlines have very meh capstones.

In fact I was thinking of taking an Astral sideline for the Vestige Sorc, who is a Shabti, because I think it would fit his combined lore. For this one in particular I think a lot of whether or not I would take it is if it would make sense to the asthetic of the character.

I also have a draconic sorc, who wouldn't want to give up his cap.

Also if you're making a save or suck sorc (enchantment/illusion/transmutation) tell me why you're not taking that g!+ d#+n +8.

12: I agree

13: I feel like I don't know s#&* about the gunslinger so I can't comment haha. Does seem generically good, but is it better than a +8 to dex? cause thats a + to hit as well...

14: This gives me a similar vibe to the paladin one. Its true its good for the unmounted thing for in caves. But its for that reason I never really consider playing a medium race Cavalier, but thats just me.


I have an idea for a cool Astomoi character, the travels around in a full length, raggedy coat with a hood. They would worship Desna, and would enjoy travelling the world being a little bit of distant guardian Angel type person.

It occurred to me that the power to speak to anyone telepathically from 100 ft away really would allow a person to just give people a little positive nudge every now and then without having to introduce yourself. Be the good Samaritan.

Someone about to step into a busy road? just whisper watch out for the rode.
See someone struggling? whisper you can do it
Being pick pocketed? check your pockets
being followed? look behind you
See a traveller on the road looking thirsty? plant the idea of where a nearby water source is

I really like that idea :) and I was thinking of making them a Traquility Dicipline Psychic so she could act as a kind of leveller for the party in times of stress. Like a pillar they can lean on.

Only trouble is, I can't think of a name!

For one thing, I think unless I'm mistaken, that they're genderless?


Why aren’t the PC’s going to just kill this creature using a passive gaze attack on them?


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EldonGuyre wrote:

Well, isn't that lovely. My comment was deleted.

Your opinion is still of no particular value.

You’re being needlessly rude.

On-topic: regarding the Paladin behaviour, is the bullying in or out of character and does he have a firm idea of character?

If it’s in characters it’s potentially a more easy fix.

Optimising does not exclude one from roleplaying by default.


You’re on a public forum in someone else’s thread. I don’t need your permission to provide a constructive comment.

This is a thread about a perceived problem with powergaming and optimisation.

Now that a conversation has been had and some ideas have been drawn out, my opinion is that in terms of optimisation the problem is more to do with a gap, than it is to do with one player operating far outside the typical norms.

It sounds to me, like some of your players are playing at the low end of the expected values and another player is at the high end.

Now in or out of character bullying is an entirely different issue to being an optimiser. And different issues from one another and mostly not something to solved in character.


What about an educated guess ;)


Okay a lot of that is making me wonder what your other players are doing? Remind me what level are you guys?

Because if the paladin is accessing its powerful spells that tells me we’re pretty high levels.

If we are pretty high level and the rest of the party is hitting 40-60 dpr, that’s very low.

Then you tell me he takes significantly less hits than everyone else in the party? Outside of smiting Paladins don’t have anything special built in that makes them exceptionally good at having high AC.

Then you tell me he’s getting the most out of leadership.

It’s starting to make me ask, more about what it is that the rest of the party is not doing, than what he he is?

Sure he could have optimised the s%~& out of his AC and there’s could be fine.

But given what I already know about their lacklustre DPR and his not particularly crazy numbers, it does make me think, that probably isn’t the case.

I’m starting to think that this disparity could be just as much about one player optimising as all the other players missing some pretty basic things they could be doing.


I never got to play him but I designed a grippli Mesmerist that rode a peacock


Leadership is one of if not the most broken feat in the entire game, banned by most groups on these boards from what I’ve seen.

A paladin who is good at mounted combat, with decent archery and nice AC is nothing irregular.

I am wondering how he is a paladin who is good at magic.

There should be lost of things he can’t do to do with higher level divine casting and basic arcane stuff.

And any not smitable opponent he shouldn’t be particular groundbreaking at fighting.


Watery Soup wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Bullying out of character is an out of character problem.

Bullying in character is also an out of character problem.

If you're playing with people you want to play again with, there's no scenario in which a player can appropriately make his/her character behave inappropriately. If someone argues there is, I would either vote them off the island or quit.

It's fine to make a strong in game case for your character getting an item. Everyone makes their in character case to the GM, who assigns modifiers based on the strength of their case, and a d20 roll settles it. Or settle it PFS-style and nobody gets permanent items - you turn it all in for gold equivalent at the next town and divide evenly.

People who argue in game until others are uncomfortable out of game are (most charitably) immature or (most likely) jerks.

I’m trying to pose a question

If one player is playing a jerk, why are the other players characters hanging out with said jerk.


Bullying in character

Why do you guys not abandon that character?

Bullying out of character is an out of character problem.


Heroes are meant to win in pathfinder

Yes it’s meant to be challenging, it’s meant to be something you can overcome, it’s about a hero.

Sounds like you’re wanting more of a fighting against the odd desperate struggle game than most people anticipate coming into pathfinder.


The +8 one just annoys me a little bit like it’s hard to justify not taking it


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Level 50 Npc tells me all the basic assumptions we have of pathfinder need to be thrown out for advising on your game


Oh yeah for sure they won’t get much use but then if I valued pathfinder products based on how much use they got I’d think most of it was hot garbage. Some of them seem super fun


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I would miss kinetic form

Do you think the DR would come in handy? I always think it depends mostly on playstyle as to how much value you get.

Force ward is a nice option in almost all cases.

I think the kinetic whisper sage hedgehog is great idea though.

Oh combat reflexes seems like an obvious win.


What do you guys think of them?

Are there any that stand out as too strong/weak?

Do you not think they’re pointless and unattainable or fun to fantasise about?

Anyone got the chance to use any of them yet?

I have to say some of them seem potentially fun on some builds.

I particularly like the Sorc (not for all bloodlines but some of their capstones are hot garbage) and the Spiritualist one seems great. Opens up a lot of builds and things.

What do you guys think? I’ve not seen much chatter about them, so I must assume not much.


Derklord wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
It’s all very well and good to start with a concept and work out, lovely, that’s the idea, but if your concept is to be a competent hero and your highest stat is 9 then something is going to seem off.

OK, I'm confused here. You seem to be disagreeing with me, but you basically say the same things. My entire point was that a character creation method that results in "your highest stat is 9" is bad exactly because you need to make rolls.

If you make crappy choices, that's your fault, but if decide to play a "master swordsman who never lost a duel", and the character generation method makes it so that you can only produce a character who "can’t actually hit anything they fight in a duel", that house rule breaks the core promise of the game, and thus the resulting game is not really Pathfinder.

Sure, it would require very large amounts of optimization to reliably win fair duels, i.e. CR+4, but that's not how the game is supposed to be played ("The value of APL +3 should be a fairly hard limit for difficult encounters", GMG pg. 41). Real life actually matches that - those boxers with a 56-5 win ratio don't get those from constantly doing 50:50 fights.

@pauljathome: Two words: Martial artist. You cannot make a competent martial arts style character with but the CRB. I'd also argue that you can't make a competent "backstab" type character.
Of course, the whole issue is tangential to the thread topic.

I think we agree with eachother and something got lost in translation

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