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Personally for a first time I’d steer away from Wizards

They’re the most unforgiving of mistakes and that’s not what you want in a first try.

And if youre starting at level 1 I’d advise against an Arcanist too. I think the Arcanist stays the weakest for the longest of all the arcane casters. Which might not be much fun for a first timer.

People have already talked about the strengths of Sorcerers.

But I would say the most fun first time arcane caster is the witch.

First of all, hexes are amazing at early levels, like, easily blow all the other classes class features out of the water, you can go all day from very early levels and that’s got to be worth it.

Also people say they’re limited by mind effecting but I think that’s a bit of a weird take, there are none mind effecting spells on their list so take a few and stop worrying.

And you can always chuck out fortune and misfortune and just cackle the day away, they don’t care about mind affecting.

The real weakness is defence, I’d recommend looking into patrons to fill that gap.

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That’s actually a really fun suggestion and the more I look at it, the more I don’t think I’m gonna achieve what I’m aiming for with startoss.

Feels like it’d also possibly play nicer with divine weapon. What about

1) Weapon Finesse
1) Weapon Focus (dagger)
3) Extra lay on hands/slashing grace
5) Slashing grace/extra lay on hands
7) Deific obedience
9) Piranha strike
11) Spell Penetration
13) Quicken Spell
15) Steadfast Personality
17) Greater Spell penetration
19) Improved initiative


I think based off the very good point of the 10ft range and as you mentioned how difficult it is to do a full round of attacks, it’ll be easier to jump ship on the dagger throwing concept.

Leaning bad touch, I could skirt the evilness, by reserving it for when she’s fighting confirmed evil creatures. A bit like a smite.

And sadly no I’ve not managed to sleep through 2020.

I’ve been writing and not yet successfully publishing a novel, and I got more into 5e for a while, but it is a very shallow pit lol.

And I keep finding myself wanting to homebrew a lot more with 5e.

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avr wrote:

My comparison for an omdura is an inquisitor who can share their judgements, but I can see the bard comparison.

You're clearly feat starved so I'd drop the quick draw. You can get wrist sheaths to have a couple accessible as swift actions, but mostly you'll use just one in melee or throwing as a standard action with startoss (i.e. you can draw as a move action combined with a normal move). If startoss isn't good enough to use that's three wasted feats, drop those instead of QD. Extend spell is cheap as a metamagic rod. There are plenty more feats to take the place of whatever you drop - more ranged feats, encouraging spell, spell penetration etc.

Hey AVR long time no see.

Wrist sheaths is a good shout. Startoss style is great in general for spreading damage, but part of the reason I invested in it is to give me a damage boost since you can’t use slashing grace on thrown weapons.

I would like to try and work out a way to do a full round of attacks with the dagger.

What ranged feats would you suggest if we drop quick draw and extend spell. I’m not too familiar with thrown weapon feats.

Spell pen might be a shout, and maybe slashing Grace just for a better melee full round.

I’m not super enthused by encouraging spell. I’d rather extend heroism then buff it slightly I think.

No worries, you’re welcome and I’m glad you enjoyed it.

I think if you’re setting means magic itself is rarified as a substance I would make the investigator and the alchemist the most common and perhaps swap innate vs learned for arcane and psychic.

Since innate magic to me implies it’s just coming from the aether or the weave or whatever. If there is just physically less of it, that would be much less likely to happen.

For faith magic I wouldn’t swap it since it’s coming from the gods still and I’m assuming they’re still there. So the same logic applies to faith magic as before.

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Hey! I'm very late to the party lol, but I think Omadura seems like a fun class, it kind of feels like a divine bard that's a bit fighty.

So I (obviously) love Pharasma and decided to do a Pharasma one and just saw where it would take me and this is where I end up.

This is where I ended up.

Class: Omadura
Race: Human

Cha: 20 (2)
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Str: 10
Con: 14 (1)
Dex: 18 (2)

God, Pharasma

Fates favoured

1) Weapon Finesse
1) Weapon Focus (dagger)
3) Point blank shot
5) Startoss Style
7) Quick Draw
9) Startoss Comet
11) Deific Obedience
13) Quicken Spell
15) Extended Spell
17) Startoss Shower
19) Steadfast Personality

Inside you will find the final spell list.

Now the theory is primary function will be as a buffer, with secondary functions being a fighter/offensive caster. With the ability to fight in melee or ideally throwing daggers (cause Pharasma) from range. Also stylistically I wanted to lean into being a cloth wearing character, so I figured it'd go chain shirt, into mithril, into eventual bracers of armour. Hence dex based.


0) Read Magic, Create Water, Daze, Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Enhanced Diplomacy

1st) Cure Light Wounds, Protection from Evil, Divine Favour, Obscuring Mist, shadow trap, Stone shield, Disguise Self

2nd) Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Lesser Restoration, Burst of Radiance, Blistering Invective, Hold Person, Spiritual Weapon

3rd) Cure Serious Wounds, Dispel Magic, Resist Energy Communal, Magic Circle Against Evil, Heroism, Litany of Entanglement, Vision of hell

4th) Cure Critical Wounds, Aura of Doom, Blessings of fervour, Divine Power, Hold Monster, Litany of escape, Invisibility Greater

5th) Cure light wounds mass, Flame Strike, True Seeing, Breath of life, Air Walk Communal, Plane Shift

6th) Cure moderate wounds mass, Cold Ice Strike, Heal, Dispel Magic Greater, Overwhelming Presence, Roaming Pit

Inside you will find backstory in case you give a s~##.


I'm stuck on the name, I've not got there yet but aside from that I have a pretty clear idea.

She grew up in a family devoted to the church of Pharasma and from an early age showed signs of being one of pharasma's chosen. Whippoorwill would often be sighted near her and sometimes even land on her body. (hence fates favoured).

Showing an aptitude for curative magic she was taken to be privately tutored by the sisters of their nearest temple to Pharasma, where she would be tutored in the arts of fortune-telling, midwifery and dressing the dead.

As an adolescent, she started to receive visions of the 'Those Who Remain' in her dreams. which is when her training took a turn for the military (hence fencer). Teaching her knife play and to turn her magic towards combat means and routing out followers of the gods of the outer sphere.

Now as a fully realised Omadura, she feels driven to route out those followers, but she often regrets her life taking such a strong turn towards violence. She yearns for the days of playing with the whippoorwill and being taught the art of fortune-telling. To this day she still collects Tarot Cards decks and sometimes paints her own, with limited success.

What's exciting about this character to me at least is its utility as a buffer, its invocation Aura's are great combat buffs, especially once they get access to blessings of fervour to work in random.

On top of which they get great cleric utility spells, (their spell list, in general, is really lit), being able to combine offensive castings of litany's with useful out of combat spells like disguise self, resist the energy and eventually, communal airwalk, not to mention it can do all this whilst playing a grat face roll.

Also, I'd like to mention a high level stand out is Greater Invocation purify, equating to a +5 to all your parties saves, all day. That's massive at high levels.

Here is the level 5 plan. For proof of concept.


Action: Invoke Justice

Action: Spiritual Weapon/Blistering Invective/Hold Person/Burst of Radiance

Action: Shadow Trap/Attack +9 (1D4+4) (assuming a +1 weapon)

Here is the level 12 plan.


Precast Heroism.

Action: Blessings of Fervour
Move: Invoke Destruction & Justice
Swift: Divine Might

Swift: Litany of Entangling
Action: Vision of Hell/Hold Person/Attack +26/+26/21 (1D4 + 14) (assuming a +3 weapon, blink belt, +4 Dex belt, 4 Charisma band and +2 dex from level)
Move: As required.

Here is the level 20 plan.


Pre Cast Heroism.

Action: Blessings of Fervour
Swift: Improved Invocation (Destruction, Justice)
Move: As required

Swift: Divine Might
Action: 38/38/33/28 (1D4 + 35)
Move: As required

Swift: Quickened Divine Favour
Action: 42/42/37/32 (1D4 + 39)
Move: As required


Action: Blessings of Fervour/Roaming Pit/Overwhelming Presence/Hold Monster
Swift: Improved Invocation (Destruction, Justice)
Move: As required

Swift: Cold Ice Strike/Litany of Entanglement
Action: Flame Strike/Aura of Doom/Heal
Move: Move/Roaming Pit

Swift: Cold Ice Strike/Litany of Entanglement
Action: Flame Strike/Aura of Doom/Heal
Move: Move/Roaming Pit

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Low magic to me, means how common magical items and magical schools/learning is within the setting.

It doesn’t mean limiting what spells can or can’t be known. And what classes can be played should be agreed in session 0.

Also there’s not much point categorising classes below 4th level casting.

That said here’s my system.

9th level casting > 6th > 4th

Self explanatory

Learned > innate

Innate just happens, learned requires schools to teach, learning and research. In a world without those things learned should be the rarest.

Psychic > arcane > divine

Faith is common even in low magic world and psychic is just much less common than arcane so that’s default. I also consider nature more common than straight religion as nature is self taught and religion usually requires an institution.

Science based magic is a bit tricky and depends on the setting, generally I think low magic settings should lean into alchemy so I’m saying that’s more common.

Here’s the ranking. I’m ignoring none casters with magic from archetypes, the above system should make it relatively easy to workout where they fit.

Kineticist and shifter were also weird and tricky to fit. For the sake of argument I treated the kineticist as a nature based 6th level caster with innate power. And the same for a shifter only a 4th caster.

Also I don’t see the logic of acting like each one class must be rare than another. Some could be equally as common as others.

1. Arcanist/Wizard
2. Witch
3. Psychic
4. Sorcerer
5. Shaman/Druid
6. Cleric
7. Oracle
8. Occultist
9. Summoner/Magus
10. Mesmerist/Spiritualist
11. Bard
12. Inquisitor/Warpriest/Omdura
13. Skald/Hunter
14. Kineticist
15. Investigator/Alchemist
16. Medium
17. Paladin/Antipaladin
18. Bloodrager
19. Ranger
20. Shifter

Also I think the main use of this information should be to be used when creating NPCs to populate the world. And also to inform how NPCs react to player characters.

Not to police character creation.

Some classes come with a lot less baggage than others and sometimes a classes name could be a profession. I could see a monk who actually introduces themselves as a monk.
Bards are often bards

For example.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Cavall wrote:

Yeah I agree with chells logic there.

Theres 5 of them and you're aiming at one then closing your eyes. Hows that help? You had sight when you picked your target out.

You target the square, not a specific creature in it. The mirror images are all in the same square.

No you target a creature in a square, hence you roll against a creatures AC

Squares are 5ft by 5ft

Targeting that you miss most of the time before you even get to AC.

If you’re looking at a guy with 5 mirror images, close you eyes and shoot where you we’re looking you have a 5/6 chance of hitting an image, cause you had a 5/6 chance of looking at an image before you closed me.

My issue is “cheese”

By cheese do you mean invest more in charisma as it’s your main stat in a sadder class and invest more skill ranks because you have more to invest?

Cause that ain’t cheese.

Also some of these roles are dependant on the roles already filled

For example knowing how many damage dealers and of what kind dictates how many buffers you need.

If you’ve got three a bard is great, if you’ve got only 1 then a bard probably isn’t going to get as much mileage as some other classes.

1) the only one of those classes that is even arguably best at said roles is wizard

Oracles make better healers
Barbs make better beatsticks
Investigators make better skill monkeys.

That’s a couple examples. My point being, please for the love of god don’t stick to those classes.

That aside any charisma class is really good as a 5th member to that party

Paladin, bard, mesmerist, Oracle, Sorcerer.

EDIT: actually scrap that. None of them are best at there specified roles.

The party doesn’t have any Wisdom or Charisma or much Divine Spell casting

I think anything like a battle Oracle/Cleric, a Druid or an inquisitor would be great.

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LordKailas wrote:
deuxhero wrote:
For Ragathiel, I remember there's a dev comment that his obedience kicks in after making an appropriate kill rather than needing do the killing as part of a ritual. Makes it not terrible if you have an aura of good to use litany of righteousness.

I suddenly have images of a justice system where they execute you and then use the results of your execution to determine your guilt. If you are found to be innocent then you get resurrected.

The witch trials

Only you get eternal life in heaven instead

But he did give Cr and Krampus CMD isn’t remarkable for his CR. Most the average CMD for CR21 falls roughly between 55-62 range. So knowing it was Krampus doesn’t give us a specially low or high CMD to aim for. This build would beat the CMD of every pretty much CR21 creature reliably.

I would agree. A bunch of evil santa’s little helper type opponents would be fun.

I never denied that GMs should have fun.

I just think it’s a dick move to set a challenge for your players then move the goal posts when they meet the challenge.

The OP didn’t need me to tell them it was krampus to know the AC and SR of the monster they were facing. The Dm wants them to know that information they got given it.

So why when the OP meets those figures would it be okay to just buff them, why even tell them that in the first place.

I can only think of one reason I can see why you’d tell someone the target they were aiming to hit if you were planning to move the goal posts if they hit it anyway.
That would be you assumed it would be impossible for them to hit that target to begin with.

For all we know the DM was pretty confident there players couldn’t do this, the fact they turned to forums supports that theory.

I personally think DMs setting goals they assume are impossible and then moving the goal posts when it turns out they’re not is not great

And really if you set a +CR8 target for your party and gave them prep time, would you expect them not to do some research?

Your player is right, it’s not broken, let them use their class features.

If you tell players to prepare for an overtly difficult encounter and then don’t enjoy it when they do, you dug your own grave.

And if you start artificially buffing your monsters cause you think your players might actually win I’m not convinced you want them to have fun either.

Prepare for X
Oh you actually prepared for X

Well make that X squared.

I’d wonder why I even bothered preparing if my GM did that.

What’s the point of running a Christmas one shot 8 levels above CR if you’re going to further buff your 8 levels over creature if the party has an answer for it.

I think I’d change cost or action, not both personally I’d probably go cost.

Meirril wrote:

And maybe your big martial beat stick researches and finds a Swarmbane Clasp. Stranger things have happened. Like a GM including one in their treasure before they encounter their first swarm encounter. It is almost like the GM controls things and could prep the party for what they are going to encounter.

You realise the point I’m making is that GMs should be doing exactly this and the objection I’m making is to them not doing this... right?

I’ve gotta say I’ve never had this problem in a good group.

In a bad group I have actively not enjoyed the game but that wasn’t my doing.

And I spend a lot of time on forums so I’m not convinced you can blame them in this case,

Are you a nartually cup half empty person?

Set wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
1) Have you ever given an Oracle a try?

I play a lot of low levels, and Oracles, like Sorcerers, really turn me off for that whole extra level of just 1st level spells... At higher levels, when they have more revelations than the Domain abilities a Cleric starts with, I might like them more, but I tend to play beginning characters and prefer my immediate gratification. :)

That’s a shame my games tend to start at about 2-4 region but we don’t spend long there.

I see what you’re saying though a level 3 cleric is more appealing than a level 3 Oracle. But I think I’d rather be a level 6 Oracle than a level 6 cleric.


I *want* a completely viable Mesmerist built around Tricks *or* a completely viable Mesmerist built around Stares, but instead I got a weird mix of partial spellcasting, Touch Treatments, Stares and Tricks, none of which are all that snappy on their own. I'd frankly give up spells entirely for a really kickass Stare-focused Mesmerist (perhaps synergizing with the Nexian Third Eye feat, and the ability to Stare at two or even three (when the 3rd eye is open) different targets at once!). Ditto, I'd love a Mesmerist who could implant Tricks all day long, multiple Tricks at once, and multiple times per combat, even if that replaced Stare, Touch Treatment *and* spellcasting. Both just feel like they *almost* were an awesome thing to build a class around, but instead were just sample platter size portions that left me hungry for more.

To be honest they feel to me to be built around being a support caster and I think it would all mesh (tricks/stares/touch treatments) if they had something to do with there standard action.

But they don’t get enough spells to rely on them at low levels and they get basically nothing to buff them in melee (to hit or AC wise).

Which means at low levels you’re left in this weird floundering position for a lot of combat where you’re good at preparing for the fight but don’t contribute much when you’re actually fighting.

If you could start at say level 7 they’d be fine probably.


(I felt the same way about the PF1 Alchemist. He wasn't a great Mutagen user, or an unlimited Bomber, or a full spellcaster, or particularly amazing with the actual Craft (alchemy) skill, or able to really use poisons in any breathtaking manner. Just a whole barrel-full of possibilities. That turned out to be a great place for Archetypes to come in and focus the class into a pure Bomber AT or a pure Mutagen-user, but the Mesmerist, IMO, hasn't quite gotten that sort of AT love yet.)

To be fair I’ve never had much trouble making an alchemist make sense (besides the poison stuff which is crap).

To me making a bomber who self buffs with mutagen and buffs others with infusions he hands out has always been pretty user friendly and made sense.
The alchemy crafting is more a downtime thing for me.

Archetypes came in and gave us a lot of new options but I don’t think the alchemist was ever floundering without them in quite the same way the mesmerist does.

Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

I’ve never played wrath but I feel like there are some obvious items you could take out/alter from Mythic to unbrake it.

Make sure Mythic vital strike multiple by the same amount as the none Mythic counterpart, not the number of dice rolling.

That is a very flawed interpretation to begin with.


Gain half Mythic power after a rest, not full Mythic power.

Remove the extra standard from amazing initiative and half the initiative bonus.

I prefer the idea from Mythic Solutions. Make Amazing Initiative a tier 3 mythic power.

Seriously change how recuperation works (seriously, the most powerful Mythic ability in my opinion. Like make it that you gain back one spell slot for each level of spell you can cast or something like that.

The most broken mythic power is Undetectable.

The second most broken power is Wild Arcana, which literally creates Schrodinger's wizard, after that is Foe Biter and all the abilities that change action economy.

Titan's bane is the one I am looking closely at right now.


Seriously alter unstoppable immortal and legendary hero.

Then as your PCs take paths and feats take them case by case. Work with your players.

Or just embrace the crazy.

From a DM perspective, I just view it as interesting to try to balance encounters without turning everything into rocket tag.

I also implemented a lot of the changes from Mythic Solutions and banned Undetectable.


The danger I feel with Mythic is some players can really make full on God’s whilst others produce things no stronger than a well made regular character.

It seriously raises the optimisation ceiling massively but the floor doesn’t change all that much.

I look at this as managing table expectations + learning curve for the players.

Even with Mythic, I have yet to have a player start thinking they a full on God. Just last month I had a level 11 tier 2 party get nearly crushed by a bunch of non-mythic CR 2...

Undetectable I’ll give you. It’s stupid frankly that it exists I ignore it and subsequently forget about it. Lol.

That aside I think you’re seriously under representing how powerful recuperation is. Wild Arcana costs a Mythic power for every single spell you cast. So you’ve got shcrodingers wizard for what like 5, 7, 9 spells a day? Frankly I think it’s much better on a Sorc.

Recuperation on the other, a high level cleric or a Oracle with recuperation may as well just cast miracle and mass heal every round of every encounter.
High level blaster Sorcs just meta magic the s@!% out of their blast of choice and cast that every round over and over again.

The only limiting factor on a full caster at these levels is Spell slots, recuperation basically removes that.

Foe biter at Mythic levels is just overkill there’s no benefit beyond a certain point for how much damage you can do. It’s no-where near as abusable as Recuperation or Wild arcana or Mythic initiative.

Set wrote:

Clerics. Sometimes I play them because no one else is. But really, I kind of wanted to play one anyway. They are just so darn versatile. I can play a whip-specialist bug-summoning cleric of Calistria who is *nothing* like my buff-happy caster cleric of Nethys who is *nothing* like my undead-loving negative-energy-channeling cleric of Urgathoa who is *nothing* like my longbow-using bear-companion-having cleric of Erastil. It's just crazy how much variance there is, between the various gods.

After that, Druids take second fiddle, along with a smattering of Wizards, Bards and Rangers. I don't play much non-base-class stuff, but I am intrigued by the Witch, pre-errata Summoner, Shaman and Mesmerist (although, like the Alchemist, the Mesmerist sometimes feels like it tries to be two or three different classes, jammed into one, and does all of them somewhat unsatisfactorily, IMO).

Two things,

1) Have you ever given an Oracle a try? If you’re a fan of clerics mechanically you’ll probably like Oracles too, you can produce similar mechanical relevance with a different theme and potentially character archetype I.E a super charismatic one.

2) I am a big fan mesmerist and have spent a lot of time thinking about them. Basically I think they don’t really work at low levels on there own. They want to be a full caster, most closely comparable to a witch, but don’t have the slots to handle it sufficiently.
They have half a tool kit to be a middling martial striker but if they dedicate the resources to do it they will sacrifice any real hope of using their caster based tools effectively.

Generally I think the best road to go down is multiclassing. The most fun I had was with a inspired blade swashbuckler 1/Vexing daredevil and made a character that presented herself as a swashbuckling striker. Using her magic more subtly for manipulation and social situations.

That said staying single classed I think the thing to do would be to do an intimidation build. Feats would be medium armour prof, with he feats to do the hurtful combo, alongside manifold stare to get two blasts of painful stare,

Use the debuff from shaken alongside hypnotic stare to allow your spells to remain effective.


I pretty much agree with you, it should be something your either skip or warn them about prior to it happening.

My whole argument in this debate is that, to just kill an otherwise reasonably balanced party for not being prepared for super niche swarms because of a random encounter generator is not great GMing.

I think the only thing I’ll point out is that running away works, so long as you don’t have players with heavy armour small and/or size who end up being too slow to effectively run away.


The fact that one can optimise a cantrip doesn’t really change that fact that doing basic cantrip damage at higher levels isn’t really worthwhile.
That’s again not being prepared for anything, but in fact being built to do a certain thing.

This is the first I’ve heard about being swallowed whole, before we were talking about simply being grappled. Wear doing 10% is not gonna cut the mustard.

The barbarians main defence against the crocodile is probably escaping on the intervening turn before it’s swallowed. And it just dying between T1 grappling, t2 swallowing and t3 he finally gets to try and brake free. The rest of the party should probably have killed it but then. But yes against being swallowed a dagger is good

EDIT: pressed enter to early

Still editing

Regarding the entangling bag. Youre right that is a good use for a turn, but you’re again describing a particular character build, not something any old character is just gonna be prepared to pull out.

I would call taking a multiclass is a pretty significant and expensive expense to pay mechanically. Not to mention thematically it could be a massive sacrifice.

Meirril wrote:

This is like asking who writes a character to deal with traps. Every wizard I've ever run has Burning Hands ready at first level because its a brutally effective spell at that level. Oh, and it is good against swarms.

But the problem isn’t first level swarms, alchemist fire is fine for a fire level swarm, the problem is when we randomly encounter a hellfire swarm or a plague of locust.

Plenty of parties won’t have a dedicated blaster at all and I’d be surprised to see a wizard prep more than one fireball at that level unless he was a dedicated blaster. Or what if your Arcane caster is a witch and there’s not much blasting at all?

Or do we now think every party needs someone running big blasts because I’ve never seen that consensus before.

Suddenly your party of alchemist fire could be doing literally nothing and unless the wizard, you might not have, preps loads of Blast spells, which is rare in my experience, you’re screwed.


Swarms, traps, invisibility, darkness, social situations and even chase mechanics aren't something everybody in the party needs to be able to handle. They are things that the Party as a whole needs to be able to handle. As long as at least one person can, it should be fine.

And when you notice that nobody can, you need to talk to your party members and see what you can do to cover it.

That’s exactly my point, but what I’m saying is if you happen to know as a GM that your random encounter generator has spat something out that’s so niche you know it will kill your party, is it still your duty to honour the generator and kill them?

Like say hellfire wasps against any party without a dedicated blaster.

The odd burning hands and a fireball won’t cut it
Alchemist fire does basically nothing


At first level you can end up facing enemies you can't fight in melee. Swarms, flying creatures, or just guys standing on top of a cliff or on the other side of a chasm. The answer to all of that is as easy as carrying a bow. As long as you are proficient with it you aren't helpless. Dealing with situations you're character isn't prepared to handle is very, very common in adventuring. If you aren't use to that sort of thing, your GM hasn't been challenging your group. A large portion of the enjoyment gained from adventuring has to do with devising a strategy to overcome obstacles. Not just picking from the 3 things your character is built to do or rolling high enough on a d20.

Why are we fixating on first level when it’s not where the problems are.

Plinking away with a bow at first level is fine even if you’re not built for it.
At level 10 it’s completely pointless.
Pulling out alchemist fire at first level will work, but not forever.

I love this idea that because I advocate not TPK’ing with high CR swarms you all act like I’ve never been challenged in game. It’s such a massive leap that seems only to be taken to discredit me.


Firstly I’ll say where I live pathfinder society is not a thing and I have no experience of it so wee are probably coming at this from different perspectives.

But first you highlight that those solutions are about as good as a cantrip, which is my point. Past the very earliest levels they’re worthless, none solutions.

I’d rather the 2handed barb try and brake free than spend the entire fight doing 1D4+7 or whatever he happens to be wasting his time doing.

Paying for it is still prepping for a very specific scenario, not being ready for anything. You’re not always gonna have that NPC on hand to grab a super weird niche spell from.

Heck why are they preparing it or are they just a magical vending machine that can produce whatever you need. My GMs would not in any normal town have an NPC on hand with that weird and almost always pointless spell prepped. And I wouldn’t as a GM either.

Climbing kit out of combat is fine, my problem is when you need to get up there in combat. You probably have characters that can’t and characters that can. Hence I find this “every character must do everything” felicity frustrating.

The DC on that arrow is literally 10, so again I say, where are the solutions for character higher than the lowest possible levels?

I try not to do the same thing twice on my characters and I’ve never heard of that build. Nor do I like the idea of dedicating so much resources to being really good at splash weapons at low levels, but then still being irrelevantly weak at high levels.

Not being prepared for every situation =/= one trick pony.

I’ve never played wrath but I feel like there are some obvious items you could take out/alter from Mythic to unbrake it.

Make sure Mythic vital strike multiple by the same amount as the none Mythic counterpart, not the number of dice rolling.

Gain half Mythic power after a rest, not full Mythic power.

Remove the extra standard from amazing initiative and half the initiative bonus.

Seriously change how recuperation works (seriously, the most powerful Mythic ability in my opinion. Like make it that you gain back one spell slot for each level of spell you can cast or something like that.

Seriously alter unstoppable immortal and legendary hero.

Then as your PCs take paths and feats take them case by case. Work with your players.

Or just embrace the crazy.

The danger I feel with Mythic is some players can really make full on God’s whilst others produce things no stronger than a well made regular character.

It seriously raises the optimisation ceiling massively but the floor doesn’t change all that much.

Firebug wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
What level do you expect a character to be before it has answers to

Dr/various types: Cold Iron Dagger (4gp), Alchemical Silver Kunai(22gp), Durable Adamantine Bolt(61gp) & Light Crossbow(35gp) gets you past most DR and are all simple weapons.

Flying: See Light Crossbow
Invisibility: Powder (1cp), eventually wands of Glitterdust/Faerie Fire
Darkness: Normal Darkness-Light cantrip or Ioun Torch, Magical Darkness-Oil of Daylight(750gp) or better yet: spellcasting service Heightened(to 4th) Continual Flame(330gp)
All terrains: Rope and Pitons (see Kunai), climbing kit, mw tools
Social situations: take a trait if its not a class skill or switch ability score, there are several mundane items that help (clothes, books, mw tools, etc).
Chase mechanics: something to add move speed(scroll of Expeditious Retreat for example), since most chase have +4 to all checks per 10' speed over 30
Swarms: Acid flask (10gp) since generally most people will be taking Alchemical Fires

You can mitigate most just by gold, and just throw it all into your handy haversack.

Hellwasp Swarm is probably a worse CR 8. Slightly lower damage, but Fire Resist 10 and DR 10/good even if you happen to have a Swarmbane Clasp.

How many characters have you made that could contribute effectively to combat with a dagger, a Kunai and a crossbow? I’ve made literally none. Use em sure, do anything worth while with em? No.

For one, pulling out a crossbow or a dagger on 95% of characters is about the same as casting a cantrip damage spell at the target.

Vast swathes of characters I’ve created cannot cast heightened continual flame and prepping that spell is something I’d never even consider unless I knew for certain I’d need it. At which case that’s not being prepared for any situation that’s preparing for one in particular.

Pulling out a climbing kit in combat? Literally never seen anyone do it and don’t think it’s a good idea. What’s to stop whatever you’re climbing to killing you on the way up?

Plenty of classes don’t have any movement speed boosts and builds that incorporate feats that achieve them are rare. Let’s be real, the only reliable used mechanics hear are haste and people who got flight, which a lot of characters won’t get for several levels.

What happens when swarms start to have a decent chunk of hit points, suddenly 1d6x1.5 isn’t going to cut it and there are swathes of classes that don’t get anything better.

I’ll give you social situations, none magical darkness and Invisibility as things you can reliably circumvent with this list.

The rest of the solutions will quickly become impractical or were never practical to begin with. A party carrying round this tool kit would be s*!~ out of luck pulling out light crossbows and kunai and plinking away hoping for the best against pretty much any flying target above say... cr5?

Being moderately successful to bad at everything isn’t really practical or as fun as just having different party members excel in different areas, also using all the tools in your wheel house you still fall short against any high Cr swarm unless you have a caster who is prepping multiple blasts per day.

Which is the very mob that started this thread.

Alchemist with fast bomber could put a serious dent in him seriously quickly.

Assuming rapid shot, haste, heroism. Starting Dex of 16+4 from belt+ from mutagen


Hits on 2/2/2/6

All those buffs an alchemist could provide for himself and all but haste are long term. With a bard in the mix you might not even need them all. He could be hasting for you.

Assuming the bard is willing to haste and inspire courage you could make a pretty terrifying archer Inquisitor.

Assuming a pre cast heroism (very achievable).

Turn 1 activate judgement (judgement and justice) and cast divine power (with fates favoured)

Turn 2 activate bane and full attack

You need rapid shot and multi shot. Also clustered shot to bypass DR.

Assume 18 base Dex, +2 from level up, +4 str and Dex belt. +3 composite longbow with a strength requirement of 16. Assuming a starting strength of 12. So now 16 str.

To hit equals

9(BAB) + 7 (Dex) + 5 (divine power) + 3(judgement) + 3 (inspire courage) +3 (enhancement bonus) + 2 (Bane) +1 (haste) - 2 rapid shot. Total = 31

Attack sequence



5 (judgement) + 5 (divine power) + 3 (inspire courage) + 3 (enhancement bonus) + 2 Bane + 4D6 (Bane) + 1D8 (bow)

1D8 + 4D6 + 19, with double damage on the first shot to hit.

Hitting on 6/6/6/11

That’s all conservative numbers. Given you could have higher Dex and higher strength.

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If this CR21 holiday one shot with AC between 35-40, epic DR, SR30+ Creature isn’t krampus I’ll eat my Xmas tree.

Oh it’s totally f!*+ing Krampus. Duh don’t know how I forgot that.

Bestiary 6, CR21.

He does indeed have see Invisibility.

Ac37, touch 19, flat footed 27

Fort +19, Ref +23, Will +20


What level do you expect a character to be before it has answers to

Dr/various types
All terrains
Social situations
Chase mechanics

Because I can think of several characters that I’ve made and seen made on these boards that don’t tick all those boxes. Also at a certain level lots of traditional ways round those problems stop working.

For example, alchemist fire is not going to work for ever against on CR swarms. Darkness can be made to bypass basic dark vision. There are lots of things like this that can come up.

Heck I’m pretty sure several classes can’t answer all those problems effectively without obscure archetypes being pulled in. Or indeed a case of shrodingers character, where so much of our resources are given over to being an all rounder that if we were to actually do that in game we’d end up average at a lot of stuff. Not good at much and badly behind on wealth by level.

It’s all very well saying every character should be prepared for everything, but when you are a concept in mind sometimes you don’t want to sacrifice that to be meh at a load of niche garbage. Especially when some classes have to bend over backwards to achieve all that.

Isn’t the point of a party that you don’t have to be able to deal with every situation? And if your party happens to have a deadly blind spot are we saying we must kill them with it to maintain the integrity of our world/random encounter generator?

Don’t dragons have it though? I still feel like this thing is a dragon and I don’t know why lol

I suppose my go to classes for what I’d like to play are Sorcs, Witches, Investigators and Oracles,

I guess if I was answering for what characters I gravitate towards.

I don’t really have a go to class, I’ve made somewhere in the region of 40 characters and there’s pretty large selection of classes within that.

I do make Oracles more often than any other class though. A lot of the mysteries are amazing and are very different. There isn’t really anything you can’t do with an Oracle in my experience.

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I think a lot of this got mis-communicated in the previous thread. I’m hesitant to suggest a lot of straw man was going on but this definitely isn’t the point I was making.

I don inherently have a problem with swarms.

I have a problem with the philosophy that if you’re not prepared for them by some arbitrary level, then it’s more important for a GM to maintain the integrity of their random encounter generator than it is for there players to have fun. Ergo it is the job of the GM to intentionally and knowingly TPK his party regardless of if that will be fun at all. Because it is there fault for not playing the game as said GM expects them too.

I have a problem with that.

Yep. Whoops.

Bully for you. If a group sent prepared for swarms they just die.

It’s not fun, it’s not challenging isn’t, it’s punishing players for not playing how you want them to.

If you as a GM can’t have fun without knowingly killing your players then you’re not a GM I want to play with.

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Philippe Lam wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
If the game ends in a miserable boring tpk to a random encounter because the Gm threw an enemy at the party he knew they couldn’t beat, that’s the GMs fault, not the players.
If the GM gives the players a fair chance and still don't properly prep, it's on the players, not the GM. Why the GM should always accomodate the players. Combats are a mix of everything, shouldn't be always tailor-made.

Not forcing players into certain death situations is not the same and presenting them with tailor made encounters.

Why should a GM accommodate players? Because it’s supposed to be fun.

If you know your players can’t deal with a certain enemy there is no difference between presenting them with that and just something wildly beyond their CR.

It’s just punishing players for not playing the game how you want them too.

To be fair in the alchemist has fast bomber they don’t really need to optimise. It’s a very constant , reliable, low effort damage stream.

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If the game ends in a miserable boring tpk to a random encounter because the Gm threw an enemy at the party he knew they couldn’t beat, that’s the GMs fault, not the players.

For my character I carried around a oil lamp dangling on the end of a rod.

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Well to be fair, mithril armour is a call back to lord of the rings so I’d expect it to be well known. And a cyclops helm is a mix maxers paradise.

I’ve never played an AP in my life. All home brew worlds, so niche items being inserted ironically into loote pools wasn’t really a thing for me.

I take the point that it’s just an item I haven’t seen, but my point is, I’ve had a pretty decent amount f time in this game with a lot of groups and to have never seen it means it isn’t reasonable to expect every level 7 party to have it

On encumbrance

Small races gear ways 1/4 so you do have some wiggle room with regards to dropping strength.

I think for skills it kinda depends on who else is in the party.

There are ways to make diplomacy key off of Int if you need to but I wouldn’t go that route if you have a charisma character in the party cause it’s easier for the investigator to outshine people in skills.

I Is probably the best skills class in the entire game. For you focus on Dex and int skills, you should be putting points in every knowledge probably, since int is the rarest mental stat to be a key stat.

I have done a very similar thing in the past (used the lamp lighter investigator archetype, worth a look).

One thing I highly recommend is combat reflexes. You’re Dex focused and you can parry, attacks of opp are treasured things to you.

Also worth considering several investigator talents are worth grabbing quick. Quick study, alchemist discoveries. It’s things worth grabbing. :) worth the feat to pick up quick.

Dasrak wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
A battering blast Sorc doesn’t need to focus Cha to the hilt because it doesn’t have a save to pump so they can afford elf, also the Dex helps with the ranged touch attack.

This is true; you could make Elf work if you want, although since Blood Piercing is Cha-based you only net out 1 point ahead vs SR. Still definitely a viable choice.

Chromatic Durgon <3 wrote:
Also I don’t think intensify does much here cause bblast doesn’t have a cl cap

It does:

Battering Blast wrote:
On a successful hit, you deal 1d6 points of force damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6)

Both intensified spell and blood intensity allow you to increase the maximum number of damage dice you can roll.

Intensified Spell wrote:
An intensified spell increases the maximum number of damage dice by 5 levels.
Blood Intensity wrote:
Whenever you cast a bloodrager or sorcerer spell that deals damage, you can increase its maximum number of damage dice by an amount equal to your Strength or Charisma modifier, whichever is higher.

Oh s@~! I never realised you could increase the cap on each individual orb, I was just thinking that you can get as many orbs as you can pump CL.

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Dasrak wrote:

As already mentioned SR is the bane of casters. If you want to go the caster nuke route you're going to need to push it through the ceiling. Possible ways to boost it include:

* Greater Spell Penetration (+4)
* Dweomer Essence (+5)
* Blood Piercing (+Cha)
* Orange Prism Ioun Stone (+1)
(Note that I'm not including Elf since you obviously want to go Sorcerer with a Cha focus)

Since you'll have 13 caster level and presumably +9 Cha, this gets you to an effective 32 on your caster level checks to beat spell resistance. This should be enough to hit fairly reliably.

Battering Blast is probably your best spell option. With spell specialization, either intensified spell or blood intensity, blood havoc, and orc bloodline you can get 21d6+42 (avg 115.5) damage as pure force damage. You can apply the Empowered Spell Metamagic to bring that up to 173 average damage, and with the aid of a lesser metamagic rod you can quicken it to hit twice per round.

Now, I wouldn't write off a martial, either. Martials are much easier to buff than casters, and if you buff heavily you can get a 13th level martial to around +40 to hit. Some back of the napkin math on a naive greatsword barbarian suggests that with proper pre-buffing it can deal around 100 DPR to AC 40. With a more optimized build you should be able to match a battering blast caster while having much more durability.

A battering blast Sorc doesn’t need to focus Cha to the hilt because it doesn’t have a save to pump so they can afford elf, also the Dex helps with the ranged touch attack.

Also I don’t think intensify does much here cause bblast doesn’t have a cl cap

Philippe Lam wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

[I’ve been playing this game for 7 years and never heard of this item.

It’s not a reasonable expectation that every level 7 party will always carry this random niche item when there are literally thousands of items in the game. Plenty of which players will never have even seen the entry for.

I don't think this is unreasonable myself. Even if not this item, there should be a way to be able to deal with, at that level, especially when the said swarms start to be super ugly (oh, ticks or vescavors). Everybody being able to throw the random alchemist's fire wouldn't be bad either. Level 7 is very different from level 1 in that aspect.

To have a way of dealing with swarms, no

To have that particular item, yes I would say so.

As you say some flasks of alchemist fire or hopefully a caster with a couple blasts prepared would be probably be far more reasonable,

VoodistMonk wrote:

If you want to nova with a blaster, and don't want to worry about Spell Resistance, be a Kineticist.

If you want to win without question, be a Monster Tactician Inquisitor... especially if you have a Bard/Evangelist/Sensei in your party.

A kineticist using an energy blast still has to beat SR if I’m not mistaken.

And one using a physical blast has to beat the ratings AC.

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