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Long story short if you're trying to make a DBZ character this game is a poor choice.

Also Mr Hercule Satan is not a joke he was the G%% d&$n champion of the world, you leave him alone.

I've found the most durable characters are Samurai of the Warrior Order and unconquerable resolve feats. Maybe with Dwarf.

You'll have rerolls on saves, strong saves vs spells, DR on challenges and the ability to gain HP any time you're weakened or vulnerable.

You'll also have full BAB and d10 hp. Not shabby.

Secret Wizard wrote:
One of the foolhardiest follies imaginable is to build a rogue/ninja, which already roll over to creatures immune to sneak attacks, around a mechanic a large number of enemies are also immune against.

It may be more foolhardy to believe one could in the first place.

And I would squash that kind of action (as rare as it would be to come up) immediately, as any reasonable GM would.

But that's saying they a) have the feat b) use the feat c) move with the feat d) get hit with an AoO and e) try to spell cast or some such instead. I'm not seeing this as something that's going to come up much if at all.

It's easier because you apply it at the start of your turn and it applies when people take AoO you dont have to ask questions like how this applies.

Yeah honestly if someone wants to use combat expertise go just stand there, that's basically already full defense that hes paying a feat for. Mazel?
And if they are doing it with the intention of not attacking that's always been an issue with combat expertise so again I'd say not an issue. Announcing you're going to hit an ogre than approaching the ogre should be enough to gain the benefits. Just announce your intentions. It ain't hard. Hell. It's easier.

To me the monk was very set and had clunky rules for fists. Pathfinder was always about having options and monks honestly had so few.

Unchained helped that, so I've no proble there but I'm not a Monk player honestly.

Kaouse wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Being so angry you could fly was stupid in the first place. There. I said it.

AKA "it's not realistic so it breaks my immersion" AKA called it.

IMO, what's really stupid is having no access to flight (or even a decent range option) in a game where a vast majority of later level enemies have flight.

And justifying system abuse by saying not doing it is stopping you from roleplaying is even worse.

How terrible of me, to alter the fluff of an ability like that? I forgot, this game isn't meant for me to use my imagination, is it? Forgive me for playing a character in a way you did not envision. /s

At any rate, like I said before (and even went as far as to bold and italicize for emphasis), this doesn't really address all of the stuff that was nerfed even for people who weren't using your so-called system abuse.

In other words, you constantly pivoting to the "system abuse" argument is just a strawman at this point.

Unchained barbarian is great, and was made for everyone playing tired of system abuse and clunky mechanics.

I'm guessing you consider Flight, Spell Sunder, Strength Surge, Ultimate Clarity and all the other stuff I brought up as "system abuse and clunky mechanics," then?

How terrible those Barbarian players must be, for selecting a rage power and doing exactly what it says that they can do. Such an abuse of the system! /s

You didnt "call" anything of the sort, since it's completely... and I mean COMPLETELY unrelated to any talking point I've brought up about why unchained is just fine. Dont even pretend you know what I like or dont like about gaming. And again, stop twisting it to be something you're talking about since it never was. You're ability to goalpost move is matched only by your ability to pretend closing down system abuse somehow stops you from roleplaying.

And I have no issue with flight, theres a dozen ways to get it. Use one of them.

The check isnt made through the weapon ot simply has to be in hand. I'm tempted to say no.

Well I know someone did a thread on a constrictor snake. But if I had to give advice it would be to think about being a Hunter instead. They can teach their pets skirmisher tricks (as if the pet was the ranger for the tricks) and some of them are decent to hamper people. Like vengeance strike.

Constrictors get Grab, and as early as level 4 get constrict.

That means you can attack and instantly turn any attack into a grapple check. With vengeance strike they don't even have to have it be their turn.

You would also get teamwork feats and hunters focus. With feats like coordinated maneuvers, you gain +2 to grapple.

Now go Fey Killer archetype. Why? Because you get both Bull AND Mongoose focus. By the time you hit 8th level, that's +6 more and a bunch of extra damage.

Downside? Snakes are dumb. Invest in intelligence. You need +2 so just headband it if you can. That allows ot to gain all sorts of other feats.

Dirty fighting feat, improved grapple and broken wing gambit to make those people attacking your pet take strikes from you and allies with the same feat. Done.

Maybe talk about level, gold to spend, and of course what kind of animal

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Being so angry you could fly was stupid in the first place. There. I said it.

And justifying system abuse by saying not doing it is stopping you from roleplaying is even worse.

Unchained barbarian is great, and was made for everyone playing tired of system abuse and clunky mechanics.

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For what it's worth I think the idea of rage cycling being played off as a great RP opportunity is the biggest lie in this entire thread.

It's supposed to be rage, as in uncontrollable anger. Not a guy popping uppers and downers every other round.

It's pure system abuse. Nothing more. There is nothing stopping someone from having the same RP for unchained other than said system abuse.

You've revived a 5 year old thread. Usually anything older that a few months it's best to start again. Why? I dunno, honestly. People get irate at the idea you're late to a party.

For what it's worth, I think working hard to make CE less useful is self defeating. If you're using it, announce it and take the benefits and penalties for the round.

The topic is to summon as a standard action. This allowed a standard action summon. Goalpost moving is a argumental fallacy. Goalpost moving the OP is a rude argumental fallacy.

Also, you can have a T Rex. If you have a space in front of you that's 5 feet away. The trex takes up 20x20 space. It's got reach of 20 feet. That's a lot of feet away to bite someone. A T Rex has one attack, it doesnt need pounce. And it has Grab which is free action. And swallow whole for the next round. None of which gives a damn about being staggered.

Also also, the feats taken are either a) taken anyways as a feat tax so you're getting 2x the use out of a tax, or b) actually useful. They arent some nebulous feat sinkholes that dont do anything. They are good feats. I should take a feat that gives me +1 caster level to something in need to summon longer. Amount of rounds lost to summon at +1 level and then touch? 0 total.

Also also also, I fully understand factually. Hence the correct use of it.

Also also also also, you're really trying hard to be technially right while saying others are, as if that mattered. The OP wanted a way to summon as a standard. Not cast summons, just summons a standard. I gave one.

Also also also also also, its 2 feats to take. Inscribe magic tattoo and tattoo attunement. Which, again, if you're playing a wizard you're given free crafting feats so the actual level you can take it all at is 5 and it costs you 1 feat outside of free class feats. THIS ISNT HEAVY INVESTMENT. But I would likely go with the other tattoo death since I'll be taking it personally anyways. But you can do it in 2 and one is given free by the wizard class.

Its not a route you like that's fine. But it's a great choice. You're original analysis is faulty and now you're coming off poorly trying to redefine the OP to have a second faulty analysis.

Just not worth the effort to keep trying to say it's bad when it's not.

That's hard to say. I rather enjoy taking actions that buff people that still have an effect over "give one of these 3 bonuses", as if it's a check list and you can stop once that's all checked off. I want them to remember haste is different than good hope (to use an imaginary example). So maybe more buff categories is a good thing.

Entirely up to the GM and circumstances.

So... then the issue was fixed when they made unchained? I don't get your point other than "I'd rather have a tax on barbarians".

The class ended rage cycle abuse and saved barbarians without a tax on barbarians. What again is your issue that you're rallying against here?

Adjacent as well is subjective.

A TRex may appear beside you, doesnt mean the guy 9 Squares away isn't going to suddenly have a bad day.

And one of the prereqs is an "or" so it's not as much as you think.

So yeah on basically all points I'm not technically correct I'm factually correct.

Disagree Claxon. The feat allows you to use it on single targets. Dazzling display affects more than one target and it allows you to use the feat along with that.

Blahpers reading is more accurate.

That would be the "in addition it leads the way to" part, yeah.

As in "pre req."

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Lucy_Valentine wrote:

"In addition it leads the way in stealing OTHER peoples summons and making them your own. "

How do you do that bit?

With the feat tattoo conversion. You touch the summoned creature, make it a tattoo, then later on roll to have control over it.

Works great when used to take the creature away, you kill the summoner and theres no roll to contest it. Even at once a day this is a great way to steal summons from a battle.

The feat Tattoo Attunement is also a way to get standard action summons. In addition it leads the way in stealing OTHER peoples summons and making them your own. Given that it will require will saves, it's safe to say most will fail.

Heavier feat investment than other options but one is a crafting feat so a wizard has that option built in.

Prerequisites: Inscribe Magical TattooISM or Varisian TattooISWG; Spellcraft 5 ranks.

Benefit: As a standard action, you can touch a single creature that you’ve summoned, instantly transforming it into a magical tattoo on your body. This tattoo takes up one magic item slot if the summoned creature is Medium or smaller, and one additional adjacent slot for each size category larger than Medium (see page 16 of Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Magic for rules on magical tattoos). You can have only one such tattoo at a time.

While in tattoo form, the summoned creature can’t take actions and doesn’t need to eat, sleep, or breathe; it retains the remaining duration of the summoning spell used to conjure it. The creature can stay in tattoo form for a number of hours equal to your caster level. If the creature is still in tattoo form at the end of that time, the tattoo disappears, the creature is sent back to the plane from which it was summoned, and the remaining duration of the summon is wasted. As a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity, you can cause the creature to change from a tattoo back into creature form, and appear in a square adjacent to you. The remaining duration of the spell is then expended as normal. The creature is staggered for 1 round after emerging from tattoo form. This is a supernatural ability.

You're a con based class with fort best saves and very likely (according to how many stage it off handily as fact) superstition rage power. Fort saves arent hurt at all by not having a con bonus. Pretending it breaks the class is a joke.

Having rage cycle cheese "baked in" to a class that also ABSOLUTELY has a baked in "oh you can't rage cycle at X HP or your head explodes" is a dumb class ability. As noted before, first is a left over from 3.5 when rage powers didnt exist, the other is how it is cheesed now.

If anything is intentional, its having your head blow up because you tried to cheese at the wrong time.

No. It is clearly written that it affects up to 4 different targets.

I would personally rule if you're throwing it to hit someone they are the center of the effect and missing it follows usual grenade rules. Targets larger than a square need a square picked.

And yeah charisma buff is a bummer... but makes a HELL of a dip.

That's a really good point. That's a +2 DC to pass off to the sorc. That's 2 feats just to get that on ONE school and it will be on all spells.

Then factor in the fact personal spells cant be handed out by other classes but you're not only doing that but 4 times... this is not a -2 power ability. That's straight up 4 dragons, or 4 twin forms or 4 Heals or 4 whatever I cant remember the spells... just good times.

Yeah honestly I'd play one in a heart beat.

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I will say this. Killing his character will never make (and has never made) a player say "gosh you're right I better ship up. Good point. Hey heres a much better character for me and I'll totally change how I am from now on. Thanks for killing me in my sleep."

And since goal will never happen, I don't see a reason to help you achieve that goal.

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Hey let's actually talk about the perfumer. I think they are getting shortchanged here.

1. Bomb damage is every round in the area. That means anyone in the area is now subject to concentration checks for constant damage. That's int+1d4 bomb damage /2 +10 + spell level. You're GOING to eff up some casters that way. Plus while it doesnt do direct damage you can hit someone directly WITH it and add on bomb discoveries. So tanglefoot bomb one of them and then fast bomb stack on some deadly effects, all of which requires that concentration check. Continuous damage is normally a level 10 ability. You get it at 1.

2. The new mutagen is a buff to charisma bluff and diplomacy that stacks and can be used on anyone. This means not getting into fights as the bards and rogues just convince the others to give you what you want. That's still winning.

3. Your buffs can be used multiple times per use. So Haste is actually useful again. As well as any personal spell can now be handed out FOUR TIMES to party members... in fact ANY target spell can be handed out FOUR TIMES.

4 times displacement. 4 times invisibilty. 4 times fly. 4 times any spell with a target or targets.

And the cost? Not a damn thing. You gain 4 times the spell buffing power and you lose nothing for it since it takes away a mutagen buff to a mutagen you dont get.

Perfumer is dope...

Keep in mind the bonus affects everyone in the flank. You dont have to be flanking if another is.

I like the stances. They mimic the iconic barbarian Conan where he changes stances based on opponents. Let's be honest much of what makes these classes is just as much fantasy fiction (Gandalf, Strider, Mr Hyde) than history.

I would also assume any rage power after Unchained came out would be good for both classes, which is quite a fair bit.

This conversation is at least better than "channels are useleas" "no heres what you can do with 15 a day" "but channels are useless".

Still. Let's get back on topic. I personally see no reason in a points buy how wisdom changes from one to the next, but the unchained will have on average a few more hp. Call that an upgrade and off we go.

Wait. Maybe you're saying only the maximum changes so that any barbarian gaining 14 maximum hp doesnt gain 14 actual hp and must be topped off because only the maximum changes and not current?

Hooray this class is even more useless than advertised. Unchained all the way.

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Do go on. I 100% see no backing of your statement, but I would love to hear how you got there.

Are you saying that if a 6th level barbarian rages at 3 hp and gets a maximum of 98 he somehow heals 12 out of nowhere? And can just rage cycle up to full?

Because, and again this is just me and the rules here, but no.



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Ryan is correct.

You're dropping in HP per hit die and dropping the entire con bonus off the other end as a threshold.

So you're suddenly taking more damage and at the same time the death threshold gets 4 points (not 2) closer.

Hes shown clearly how at level 3 and up it's a death sentence. Compared to unchained where it's a temp hp bonus and has no bearing on negatives at all.

Even if it was a "small range" (it isnt) it's an inherent flaw and unchained fixed it.

Can you take more damage before hitting negatives with a barbarian while raging? Yes. Absolutely.
Are you likely to TAKE more damage due to AC penalties and die once you hit negatives? Yes. Absolutely.

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No that's dishonest to look at it that way. The whole party can revive a fallen member in an unchained barbarian or any other class. (Life link oracles excepting)

You simply dont get that chance with a barbarian. Losing your con bonus for threshold and all the hp that buffed you to that point simply means that barbarian is dead. No stabilize or channel or cure wounds saves them. They drop they drop for good. It's an inherent flaw in the class that already suffers AC issues, so they have to be babied and minded more than many other martials to keep from hitting negatives.

Unchained is simply more functional and simpler in its design. It's like someone putting up a cover over a 2 meter hole in the death star.

Lose song of marching to regain fascination.

Lose spell kenning to channel and completely negate invisibility concealment and darkness.

That's not a -2. And it isn't a -1 on power either.

I'd have gone 0 -1.

Your halfling could take a +1 menacing weapon. This would make all attacks for Flankers at +2 more.

Forgive me but I thought 2 was showing the archetype was fundamentally broken as far as function, either for weal or woe. Have I been too conservative with them or am I not understanding this system?

Did I forget one? Thought I did the whole list for Paladins, oaths aside.

Exactly this.

More pallies


Forge Father Seeker
Power -1 versatility -1
Unlike the Ghost hunter archetype this has too narrow a focus to come up and handicaps the player for it. The cap is great but the build up towards it is a wasted theme.

Power 0 Versatility +1
Rare healing build that provides more than what it loses. The level 11 ability is a great group buff and the archetype adds a second channel pool. For oradins this could be a number 1 contender, even with the 11th level ability delay. Less smites can always be made up for.

Pearl seeker
Power 0 versatility -1
If you're not under water you're a paladin with a mount that has little speed and is dying. Spontaneous casting and psychic add ons make this a quirky little archetype with some potential. Powerfully insane underwater as a charge build.

Stonelord (dwarf only)
Power 1 versatility 0
This archetype plays entirely on dwarven strengths (i.e. dropping divine grace for a race that has massive saves vs spells already) and completely negates negatives (no charsima factoring in here, and defender ability working with lack of dwarven speed.) On any other race this would be weaker but it simply fits with dwarves. Getting undersized mount and retraining later on is almost a must at 9th level. The result is something entirely tank like but wholly unpaladin in how it plays out. Great example of theme used well.

Temple Champion
Power -1 Versatility -1
Losing spells is usually ok for a caster with a negative 3 penalty and only 4 levels of casting. But losing divine bond as well for a trade off that demands absolute perfect choices for domains to even attempt to break even is a poor archetype. Better to play a different spell less paladin

Wilderness Warden
Power 0 Versatility 0
A nature themed archetype that trades off and gains a fairly equal amount of power and versatility, albeit in some abilities being better and others worse. Perfect for a far traveling group always on the road, adding +1 versatility.

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Faithful Wanderer
Power -1 Versatility-1
You are now a focused planar attacker. More skills (hey perception!) and "smites" are more like favoured enemy, but the focus is narrow.
In a planar based game this is +1 in both columns at the very least; otherwise you won't be as useful.

Forest Preserver
Power 0 Versatility-1
This is best used with druids (or other plant/animal summoners) in a group as you can help with summoning buffs so long as a tree is around. Given the dependacy on wilderness, a tree should always be around. In this case this archetype is rather potent. Otherwise it simply falls flat with a need to consistently be in the forest.

If you should have encounters e ery adventure day than I agree simply have them rest every 3 sessions. Your problem is solved.

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Switch that candle out!

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More pally stuff. I would rather we used the official names than made up srd names.


Divine Hunter
Power 0 Versatility +1
Archery based Paladins that can make the whole group into archers. One thing to note is the ability to expend smites to gain and share archery feats with a party... but it doesnt have to be against evil targets. If this was gained earlier this would be a +2 versatility ability.

Dusk Knight
Power -1 Versatility 0
You gain stealth but keep the armour penalty until 8th. You lose divine bond. You gain dark vision to stack upon your dark vision.... If we play pretend that you start at mid levels some decent fun could be had. The only thing this is best for is a lawful good rogue dip because smite adds concealment... but not any damage.

(Iomedaen Enforcer) Enforcer

Power 0 Versatility 0
While it's been noted already that smiting chaos means accidently smiting good, this archetype just trades the words evil away for chaos for the class. The alterations arent enough to change the numbers. In a fey heavy game this would be a stronger archetype.

(Iroran Paladin) enlightened Paladin
Power +1 Versatility +2
You lose detect evil to detect Ki. Kind of useless. You'll also lose channels. Not a huge loss. You gain free skills, free feats, a ki poolsmites that work on anyone and a paladin code you can make up yourself. Your smites even boost versus spells of your target, you retain saves and make reroll abilities rips for abuse. Almost a perfect archetype do long as you can boost that AC up.

What's left for pallies?

I fail to see how the total defense actual even slightly applies here. It requires no wielding of anything and adds a dodge bonus.

I would say if you're wielding weapons you're not "wielding unarmed" as well.

While impressive no not even close to the record.

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Here's what I think.

I shouldn't have to look up Neutonian Fluids to play f~@@ing DnD

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