I know another exception is something like a Justice Champion. If you attack an enemy and miss, then attack a second time and hit, and the enemy has a reaction like "Deal 10 fire damage to everyone within 10 feet" and that hits an ally, then your reaction would trigger (assuming all other conditions are met). You could shield the ally but technically your Retributive Strike would be at MAP #3.
Personally I think that's a super weird interaction, wouldn't expect a player to remember that (and in a way that only affects Justice and not say Redemption or Liberation), and would just give the Justice Champion the Strike without MAP...but I do recognize that's a house rule, not RAW.
Doesn't matter, MAP explicitly does not apply outside of your turn unless otherwise stated in it's own definition.
I think the DM's argument is that that section is written under the assumption people only have one reaction per enemy turn which changes at higher level with the Tactical Reflexes feat.
What I understood was: it's within a turn. The reason it doesn't normally apply is that you have one reaction --- so one reaction during another actor's turn.
... so if you 're fighting A and B and you take one reaction on A and one reaction on B, it still doesn't apply.
But if you take two reactions on A, and those reations have the attack tag, then it applies.
In other words, it's a pretty specific, narrow case.
I know Weapon of Judgment specifically calls out that sort of thing -- are there any other examples of that?
I was talking about the feat with someone and they said "If you take two reactive strikes on the same other creature's turn, MAP applies. I think it's in the errata. MAP is per turn."
I've looked through the errata for anything about "Reactive Strikes," "Attacks of Opportunity," and "Multiple Attack Penalty," but haven't found the section they're referring to yet.
Could anyone point out where this was clarified? Thanks!
My level 18 Rogue player wants to cast Darkness from an armor rune (like Invisibility from an Invisibility rune, though he'd be fine with it taking the normal spell actions). I think the main goal is to avoid having to pull out a wand, trick the magic item (which takes three actions), stow the wand, and regrip his Elven Branch Spear. So a worn item that could cast Darkness would also work as well.
Problem is I don't see either of those (runes or worn items) on Archives of Nethys.
Any items I'm missing that would be applicable?
Would creating a custom rune for him cause any balance issues? I'm slightly worried about it stepping on the spellcaster niche and being very strong against foes without Darkvision (the rogue has it)
He also has the Shadowdancer dedication already and Shadow Jump so I'm also comparing this to Dance of Darkness which is two actions, is a smaller area, and requires a Performance check (crit success is 1 min, success is two rounds, failure is one round). So basically a custom item would be saving him a feat and giving him a better version of it.
He could alternatively have spent two feats on a spellcaster dedication and then basic spellcasting to cast Darkness twice a day.
But again, he's also level 18, there's a lot of powerful magic items available, so this probably wouldn't be too big of a deal.
"Because of the magical power inherent in your blood, your spells that hurt or cure are stronger than those of other spellcasters. When you Cast a Spell from your spell slots that either deals damage or restores Hit Points, you gain a status bonus to that spell's damage or healing equal to the spell's rank. This applies only to the initial damage or healing the spell deals when cast. An individual creature takes this damage or benefits from this healing only once per spell, even if the spell would damage or heal that creature multiple times."
So you toss out a Fireball, it does extra damage equal to its rank, simple.
But what about Weapon of Judgment which creates a weapon that attacks only when a specific trigger condition is met?
Does the first strike from the Weapon of Judgement deal extra damage? The first strike that HITS? Or does it not benefit at all due to "This applies only to the initial damage or healing the spell deals when cast?"
And what about Blessed Boundary that only deals damage if/when creatures move through it?
Does that deal damage on the first time an opponent tries to move through? Does it matter if the first move is a critical save? Does Sorcerous Potency not even apply due to "This applies only to the initial damage or healing the spell deals when cast?"
As far as I can tell, it's a core class feature of Thaumaturges and not available via Archetype or anything else.
So...
1, am I missing anything here?
2, if not, if I want to let it happen anyway, what might be a reasonable way to do it? Seems like it'd have to come at the cost of something else significant.
And I understand that the amount of fire damage the plane of fire deals is on average more than what runes would mitigate (although I honestly can't find where it spells out how much fire damage the plane should deal each round).
Rules on fire planes: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3014
"Fire: Planes with this trait are composed of flames that continually burn with no fuel source. Fire planes are extremely hostile to non-fire creatures. Unprotected wood, paper, cloth, and other flammable materials catch fire almost immediately, and creatures wearing unprotected flammable clothing catch fire, typically taking 1d6 persistent fire damage. Extraplanar creatures take moderate environmental fire damage at the end of each round (sometimes minor environmental damage in safer areas, or major or massive damage in even more fiery areas). Ice creatures are extremely uncomfortable on a fire plane, assuming they don't outright melt in the heat."
Definition of environmental damage and temperatures: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2768
Category Temperature Fatigue Damage
Incredible cold (-80º F or colder): 2 hours Moderate cold every minute
Extreme cold -79º F to -20º F 4 hours Minor cold every 10 minutes
Severe cold -21º F to 12º F 4 hours Minor cold every hour
Mild cold 13º F to 32º F 4 hours None
Normal 33º F to 94º F 8 hours None
Mild heat 95º F* to 104º F* 4 hours None
Severe heat 105º F* to 114º F 4 hours Minor fire every hour
Extreme heat 115º F to 139º F 4 hours Minor fire every 10 minutes
Incredible heat 140º F or warmer 2 hours Moderate fire every minute
As you can see, moderate fire damage every round is at least a category of heat higher than incredible, literally off the chart.
What's funny is it's the same person asking, and I have the same basic response then as I did now.
I completely forgot I previously asked this question. My bad. The party decided to pursue a bunch of other stuff first but now want to do this again (unexpectedly, thought they had other priorities).
Improvising based on what some players brought up, I tentatively ruled Greater Cooling Elixirs would cool the characters down enough that 15 fire resistance would protect them from all but the most extreme danger zones at the cost of nullifying the resistance. I said they could also try to basically get Major Cooling Elixirs (homebrew) but it looked like that would cost more than Greater Cooling Elixirs + Charms.
I also ruled the ranger's cat would be able to survive with just a Greater Cooling Elixir (not needing the charm because he's a really tough cat) as I didn't want to overly punish the pet using character.
Maybe a ritual would be better, I'll think again on that and what it would involve.
Looks like most places you'd be taking somewhere between 4d6 and 6d6 fire damage per round (lowering to 1d6 to 2d6 in "safe" areas which probably means something like the City of Brass).
So a Charm of Major Fire Resist would keep you safe in the city but how would one venture further out? This is a level 17 party with a lot of gold and some favors that can be called in, so they have resources.
The bad news: the DM isn't thrilled with the idea of Greater Oil of Weightlessness or a Dawnsilver Bastard Sword due to physics.
The good news: I didn't escape, despite trying repeatedly. The rogue who got swallowed round 2 never managed to escape. The cleric who got swallowed round 3 never managed to escape. The druid got the Worm to crit fail on a Cone of Cold and that was able to finish it off so everyone lived.
Interact to Swap your polearm for a shortsword and Interact to draw a shortsword have exactly the same level of difficulty from being swallowed.
I'm not confident one could stow a polearm while being compressed by a stomach and having the grabbed condition. You're not in a cavernous stomach if you're grabbed.
Double Slice and similar feats let you add the damage of the strikes together before resistances so I'd say they count as one for the Rupture point.
The catch is you need to be dual-wielding weapons -- if I'm holding a polearm in one hand and a short sword in the other, I'm not sure I can stow a polearm while in the stomach of a worm.
Deriven Firelion wrote:
An elite purple worm can eat you, burrow into the ground to escape, and digest you far away from the party leaving you dead very easily if the DM is mean.
Yes, that exact scenario occurred to me.
Again, I'd understand a caster having trouble escaping and getting swallowed basically being a death sentence. But dealing with a physical threat like this seems like it should be the martial's forte...that Athletics score of 32 is just so freaking high. Technically above the Extreme stat (though 30 at level 13 for the non-elite creature is extreme).
Now, if I had invested in having the short sword be Greater Striking and two 1d6 damage runes it'd be dealing 24.5 average at this point...but Greater Striking runes are level 12 items and I already have one on my main weapon and my ranged weapon. Hard to have too many of those at level 12.
What I am less of a fan of is using the Elite template to push a higher level creature to be even further higher level than the PC level. That is a dangerous way to build encounters.
FWIW, we're playing an official Paizo AP, I don't think this is something the DM did in this case.
But this is really making me tempted to upgrade the short sword with damage runes.
And unfortunately I don't have Vicious Swing, but I could pick it up tomorrow with Combat Flexibility. If I'm not digested by then, of course.
Level 12 party, fighter/rogue/cleric/druid. I'm a polearm focused fighter.
And, as the title suggests, I've been swallowed by an Elite (+2 to most stats) Purple Worm. His jaws strike of +30 hit me (unsurprising) and then it was his Swallow Whole check of +27 against my Fortitude DC of 32. Yes, that means the Elite Purple Worm has an Athletics of 32 baseline.
The rest of the party is fighting the worm, though more of them may be joining me in the worm's stomach pretty soon. The question is: besides kill the worm, what can the party do to help me and what can I do?
I can't use my +2 greater striking polearm with extra damage runes while swallowed (I'm grabbed and slowed: 1 and can only use light bulk weaponry). I also can't use my +2 greater striking longbow. I do have a +1 striking short sword for this exact situation, but that's only going to do 2d6+7 damage per hit, or 14 per hit. So if I crit I'll probably rupture and escape, but it's +22 vs AC of 32 (34 - 2 for being off-guard to me) so I'd need a natural 20 to crit.
How about Escaping? I do have 12 level + 5 strength + 2 item + 6 master = 25 Athletics, which seems pretty good. I even have the Slippery Prey skill feat so subsequent escape attempts only go down by 3 each vs 5. But the Athletics DC of the worm is 42, so I'd need a 17 on the first roll (20% chance) and even with Slippery Prey I need a natural 20 on the second.
If the party manages to Frighten the creature in theory that means it's a 25% and 10% chance, but still not great.
Also each turn I struggle (attack or escape) I lose two rounds of air, and after 4 rounds of struggling I'll be unconscious and die shortly after.
So potentially there's an argument to be made that I should just wait and not struggle to buy time for the party, but if a party member gets swallowed each round that goes out the window pretty fast.
The rogue and cleric both have nice rapiers that are highly enchanted...but those won't be usable if swallowed and I don't know if they have a backup weapon specifically for this scenario.
The DM might also decide to have the worm spit me out as an attack but that kind of feels bad and like a cheap way of not dying.
To be clear, I know that a level 14 creature is supposed to win in a fight vs me at level 12. It's supposed to be twice as strong. But it feels like it can win initiative, walk over, bite me, swallow me, and then I just die 4 rounds later after doing 48ish damage to it by swinging my sword from inside its stomach.
If I try to escape, I have a 0.8^4*0.95^4 chance of not escaping, which is still a 33%ish chance (20% chance of not escaping if they manage to always keep it Frightened 1). So one third of the time I never succeed at escaping and die from suffocating...and even if I do escape, it can just easily swallow me again to repeat the process.
Upon talking to one of the other players more, the biggest sticking point seems to be the idea that 4 enemies arranged horizontally can block movement through but those 4 enemies arranged diagonally cannot.
This means rather than moving 5 feet to the southeast either as a Step or Stride, they're arguing you need to tumble through the square of either the enemy to the east or to the south (and provoking reactions from entering/leaving those squares) and then continuing to the southeast corner, costing 10 feet of movement (two squares) plus another 5 feet of movement for the difficult terrain of tumbling through for a total of 15 feet.
I absolutely will block both diagonal movements. Provided there's no actual space in the first case and allowing (of course) tumble through in the second.
Which creature(s) is/are getting tumbled through?
Also, if there's an enemy fighter with a non-reach weapon to the bottom left (SW) of C1 or upper right (NE) of C2, which (or both) gets an AoO?
1, This is an incomplete question. Are those wall segments connected or do they form two sides of a corridor/choke point?
Assume both grid squares are 100% made of stone or iron or something.
DMurnett wrote:
3 & 4, I think easier to handle, there's nothing stating that you can't move around/between creatures like that, I would not require a Tumble Through check to get from S to F in either case and allow direct diagonal movement.
"When measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on.
You can’t move diagonally past a corner (even by taking a 5-foot step). You can move diagonally past a creature, even an opponent.
You can also move diagonally past other impassable obstacles, such as pits."
YuriP wrote:
That said try to avoid to go to far from the expected RAW rules to prevent unexpected frustrations to your players and try to be transparent about these situations with antecedence if possible.
That's my concern here, I've never run it that way or seen it run that way but now a DM is claiming that and I've realized the rule might in fact not be crystal clear. But it's going to be weird for me to try to remember this DM is handling movement differently.
For the longest time, I've run PF2 like it was PF1 movement rules where you couldn't move diagonally if a corner was in the way but could move diagonally when creatures were involved.
Now someone has me questioning this and I'm struggling to find clear rules. So, let's reference this diagram where a PC (or NPC) is trying to move from S(tart) to F(inish).
1, can the PC move diagonally between W1 and W2? I think everyone agrees the answer is no.
2, if W2 is removed, can the PC move diagonally from S to F or do they need to go through the W2 square?
3, can the PC move diagonally between C1 and C2? Or is it blocked/would it require a tumble through check?
4, if C2 is removed, can the PC move diagonally from S to F or do they need to go through the C2 square (or tumble through the C1 square)?
I am looking for actual rules references if possible to settle this disagreement.
Now if they're trying to hear someone specifically that is 100' away and there's seven other things in combat between them? I'll impose Circumstance penalties on the check because they're trying to hear something specific over a lot of noise and that's more difficult than "there's a large creature thudding around nearby."
In this case it was more like "A PC (enemy) is in melee with two NPCs (allies) about 100 feet away."
I didn't think the NPC could reasonably make a hearing check to be firing arrows into the right square under those circumstances :)
I basically had the blinded NPC caster start stacking some buffs on himself and the combat wound up ending (NPCs surrendering) a few rounds later as the buffs were finishing, amusingly.
If you're a melee attacker, then you could hobble at half speed to the sound of combat and attack in a square if you think an enemy is there with a 50% miss chance (plus you're off-guard).
A ranged attacker trying to shoot from a distance seems unlikely to be reasonable.
A spellcaster targeting any spells from a distance seems unlikely to be reasonable.
Do they basically need to switch to melee weapons and hobble to the fight to do anything other than just stand around?
Do they need to try to fire arrows or cast spells essentially point blank range so they're confident about targeting?
Anyone had experience dealing with this sort of thing?
Well M2 could spend two actions on repositioning, so given points 1 and 2, yes.
The issue was that the Boss would be occupying a minion square after the first reposition and thus that wouldn't be a valid Reposition, I think the GM was referencing this rule:
First of all, I want to be clear I am asking for what the rules say, hence why this is in the rules section. However, I'm aware there might be some grey area here where this is no clear RAW.
I was Player 1 (P1) in this scenario and we had an enemy caster boss (B) who was at the front of his group of minions. I had rushed in (so had P2) to try to catch him while he was out of position in the front. I also had a reach weapon and Reactive Strike.
The DM then said four things when it was M2's turn:
1, since M2 was an ally of B, M2 didn't need to roll a check to reposition B
2, since no check was needed, M2 got the critical result of reposition
3, M2 could chain two repositions together to move B 20 feet south
4, since M2 was moving B, B did not provoke a Reactive Strike from me
Is that all correct?
All of the minions are large creatures, so is the boss.
Mobility seems to say you can move at half your speed (so presumably at least 15 feet in essentially every circumstance as an elf, likely 20+ at mid to high levels) without triggering any reactions.
Elf Step lets you Step twice as one action, which has a maximum distance of 15 feet if they're both diagonal.
Is there ever a circumstance in which Elf Step would be worth using over Mobility?
Obviously any elf (or half elf etc) can take Elf Step while Mobility requires a class or multiclass feat instead of an ancestry feat, so Elf Step is often "cheaper" in that regard.
Melee focused with a halberd. Main stat is still strength.
We're using a VTT (Fantasy Grounds) so asking the GM shouldn't be such an issue. But I agree with your general point, Claxon.
And I have no idea on the enemies/attacks. I'm joining a campaign at level 11 (I'm currently also GMing a campaign that's at level 16 so I'm familiar with PF2, fear not) so there's a lot of unknowns.
I'm planning on making a fighter with high dex (to still be reasonable at ranged combat and acrobatics checks among other things) which means Full Plate isn't that helpful.
So I'm looking at Splint Mail or Half Plate.
They seem effectively identical (except for a minor cost difference) except for the armor specialization.
Splint Mail would resist 3-5 piercing damage.
Half Plate would resist 3-5 slashing damage.
I'm tempted to go with Splint Mail for resisting things like arrows and bite attacks (especially from dragons or devils/demons) but I'm really not sure. On the flip side, anything using a claw attack, Greatsword, or Greataxe (among other things, obviously) will be doing slashing.
Technically what I was concerned with was Slumber Wine and whether counteracting it would let the person immediately wake up or just when the current stage of poison wore off (so potentially a day or three).
Say someone is afflicted by a sleeping poison that knocks them out for a minute each stage.
Then someone else uses a spell to counteract the poison (like a 3rd rank or higher Cleanse Affliction) halfway through a stage.
1, it sounds like the poison is just gone if everything goes correctly with the counteract (like say it's a rank 5 poison vs a rank 4 spell and the counteract check is a success), no more rolls or anything
2, do effects of the poison (like the sleep) also immediately go away? In other words, would the person immediately wake up or simply wake up when the current stage wears off since the poison is gone and there's no more saves to make?
19 AC seems pretty good for its level? Look at the Legacy version.
NorrKnekten wrote:
Are you absolutely sure you needed to kill the drake before level 2, Or did you seek it out before being fully prepared? Because as hinted by Tarlane, The drake isnt found at the first floor unless you seek it out.
We discussed whether we should try to fight the drake now or see if we could hit level 2 first.
The DM said hitting level 2 for milestones involved clearing the entire first floor.
NorrKnekten wrote:
You don't want milestone leveling to be too rigid or it can be punishing for the party. You can't really expect a party to find absolutely every secret or do every fight.
I think it's basically "When the players and DM feel the party is basically done with the current floor and are ready to descend, gain a level."
So missing out a few secrets isn't going to punish us. But we can't simply skip an encounter and come back after we've done one or more lower levels.
And I dont think that either encounter mentioned are neccesarily overtuned but both absolutely are severe-threat and Extreme-threat bosses against level 1 party.
I mean, by definition that means they're overtuned :)
The drake is considered a moderate encounter (+2) at level 3.
If it's severe or extreme threat it should be level 4 or 5.
NorrKnekten wrote:
I am not sure if you had any measure of defence against reactions, Forbidding Ward, Protection, Raise shield and so on.
That all sounds like stuff the warpriest would have access to and no one else.
OrochiFuror wrote:
Did you clear the top floor? Should maybe level two by the time you fight the drake.
We're on the entry floor with the Mitflits and scorpion. We have not gone down a level. We found this stuff on the western side of the ruins, close to the kobold haunt.
OrochiFuror wrote:
Those were all rough fights, swash felt terrible for many fights. I didn't enjoy the adventure as I felt very ineffective tickling with a d4 weapon and missing a lot.
Yeah, the Swashbuckler is hitting for 1d6+4 but only a buckler...feels a rogue would be hitting as hard with sneak attack bonus and a fighter would be hitting either way harder or at least slightly harder with a better shield.
Is Swashbuckler just not good?
OrochiFuror wrote:
Your group doesn't look like they have much reliable damage, rogue and swash aren't great for damage especially in AV.
Yes, I originally suggested I play a 2H fighter with a halberd or greatsword to act as a fulcrum but they wanted an arcane caster.
Tarlane wrote:
When we ran AV, my players similarly identified what was nesting down there and decided they weren't yet prepared for that fight.
There was no "down there?" We were told the milestone leveling indicated we basically needed to clear the whole first floor including the drake to hit level 2.
Again, I think if we had to stuck our initial plan we could have prevailed, but it was way harder than the scorpion or things like the two Giant Flies.
A tale of water and stone, or how we got destroyed by
Spoiler:
the River Drake
First of all, I like the DM and I think he's doing his best. I don't think he's trying to screw over the party or anything weird/malicious and he has seemed very reasonable overall so far in the campaign. I think two things can be true at the same time:
1, our party did not handle the encounter properly
2, the enemy in question seems very overtuned for its level
Our intrepid group, which nearly had someone die the second session due to
Spoiler:
the Giant Scorpion's venom,
consists of a Warpriest, a Swashbuckler, a Rogue, and of course a wise/smart/stunningly good looking Sorcerer (myself, naturally).
Here begins my tale (and I will do my best to recount things factually without editorializing)...
Spoiler:
We found the room with the frog carcass and were able to deduce a River Drake had been eating it. Through some Arcana checks on my part we knew it would be hostile and had a AoE acid spit attack. We were worried it would attack us later when we were engaged with something else or low on resources, so we elected to set a trap for it.
Literally, because we found a Spike Snare.
Our plan was to lure it to a chokepoint where there was a hole in the outer stone wall of the structure. The Swashbuckler would try to block the entry, the Rogue would be hiding behind and walk up to flank/sneak attack, and the Warpriest and I would unload all of our magical might (three Force Barrages on my part would deal an average of 33.5 damage over three rounds if I could free cast with no save/attack roll required).
Unfortunately, we were having trouble getting the River Drake's attention. The Warpriest decided to walk down the ramp of rubble and move some 50ish feet to the northwest near the water's edge and make some noise (about 70 feet from the rest of the party IIRC).
That got the drake's attention. It emerged from the water. Roll initiative.
The Warpriest fired off a Divine Lance. Natural 20. Critical hit. Dealt 11 damage.
River Drake spat acid at the Warpriest. Warpriest rolled an 8 total on his reflex save, critical failure. Since we knew the spit did 4d6 damage (14 average), this meant the 20 HP Warpriest (Dwarf) was essentially dying right off the bat. We suggested he burn a hero point to reroll his save, he did, and actually succeeded. Took 10 damage (rolled damage was like 6/5/3/6 so much higher than average and then halved).
Drake then swooped in to stand next to the Warpriest.
Rogue runs to try to get near the Warpriest and help.
Swashbuckler runs down the ramp and is just in range to fire an cantrip of Needle Darts. Miss.
I run down the ramp as an action, but the drake is still around the edge of the building at this point for me. If I move again I can't cast a two action spell. So I use Runic Weapon on the Swashbuckler -- not great on a d6 weapon, but I don't seem to have other good options.
Warpriest is up. He casts Runic Weapon on himself and swings out at the drake.
The Strike triggers the reaction of the drake. The drake rolls a 16 I believe for total of 28, critical hit. Deals 20 damage. The Warpriest drops before his strike goes off. Would have dropped even without taking any damage from the acid spit. Also average hit (rather than a crit) would also have dropped him since he did take 10 damage from the acid spit.
Drake's turn, regains reaction. Does a Draconic Frenzy at the rogue. Misses on all three attacks. Flies about 20 feet up into the air with its last action.
Rogue fires his hand crossbow at the drake. Hit. Deals two damage. Draws a dagger and throws it. Misses.
Swashbuckler attempts another Needle Darts since he can't melee the flying drake. Miss.
I Force Barrage for 9 damage (3d4+4). We have 22 damage dealt to this thing and it's still >50% HP. And I only have one Force Barrage left.
Warpriest continues dying.
Drake swoops in and savages the rogue who is now dying.
Swashbuckler retreats back up the ramp and into a position to hit the drake with the trap.
I follow.
Warpriest and rogue are dying.
Drake uses a speed surge, moves 100 feet, and walks right into the trap. Critically succeeds on its reflex save, no damage. Still has two actions due to the speed surge so Draconic Frenzies against the Swashbuckler. Swashbuckler goes down.
I run like hell closing doors along the way since there's no way I'm winning this fight at this point. Thing still has 23+ HP and I have one Force Barrage left.
------------------------
Like I said originally, I think we could have handled the encounter better but the River Drake also seems very overtuned. Things like...
1, the reaction of literally "Anytime a PC uses a melee attack (reach or not), I can use a Reaction to Strike back." The only way to avoid this is...to not attack in melee. Ranged attacks from 15+ feet away or spells only. Even a Fighter with a Reach weapon who gets a Reactive Strike as the drake approaches has a 25% chance of just going into dying without the Reactive Strike going off. Fighter thinks he's getting off an attack on the approach and is dropped instead. The "solution" here seems to be really making sure you launch a bunch of attacks in a round if anyone is going to melee the drake, but it still seems incredibly punishing. Now, a Fighter with a shield raised would reduce the odds of being crit and could survive a crit on average, but that also requires the chance to raise the shield. And standing there with a shield raised has problems because...
2, the drake can fly and has a ranged attack usable every 2-7 rounds that deals 14 damage in an AoE. So you can't group up to protect each other without the thing just hovering up above and AoEing you. 14 damage, incidentally, has a very good chance of dropping a wizard/sorcerer if it rolls very slightly above average (or the wizard/sorcerer is an elf or has lower con).
3, the Draconic Frenzy coupled with Speed Surge means this thing can move from 100 feet away and attack three times in one round. So even trying to engage from extreme range with 100+ reach spells and ranged attacks is extremely difficult.
Just one of those is already very dangerous and it has all three.
Anyway.
I think this fight was technically winnable with close to ideal tactics but man it would be rough and can easily destroy a lot of groups. Felt like a level 4 encounter at a minimum (Severe), arguably an Extreme encounter (pretty even fight, reasonable chance of TPK).
The Tap into Blood feat has a unique way of using one skill instead of another skill, so any comparisons of Tap into Blood to other replacements without acknowledging that merely signal the fact that they haven't grasped what is actually written.
How is using Arcana to make a recall knowledge check on Zombie Lore different from using Gossip Lore to make a recall knowledge check on Zombie Lore?
Theaitetos wrote:
Personally, I make a huge difference between reading rules & how I feel about those rules. Many others do not; they let their emotions dictate what they read, not the text right in front of them.
The Pathfinder 2 rulebook literally says
"Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is."
Even though it is not relevant for you here: The Armor Proficiency feat was remastered to grant Expert at lvl 13.
Oh excellent, that would solve the entire problem! Not that it's likely to be relevant here. Thanks!
Sir Belmont the Valiant, II wrote:
Did you carry a shield? Was it helpfull to have one?
No, though I was using the shield cantrip. In theory I could carry a shield as well, though, yes.
Sir Belmont the Valiant, II wrote:
I am not certain that Bulwark applies against a Basic Reflex Save (and it certainly won't help you when you want to Grab an Edge). Frex: how does Bulwark help you save against a Grease spell?
It'd help as much against a Grease spell exactly as much as it helps a Champion or Fighter with 0 dex modifier :)
Bulwark applies only against damaging reflex effects, though at level 10 it would apply to literally everything and be +4.
Theaitetos wrote:
That person voices its general issues with Lore skills, not on the applicability of using Arcana instead of a Lore skill.
He literally said
"Using arcana to recall knowledge about a zombie is never using an applicable lore skill to RK on a zombie."
So what? Rebuilding a character from scratch, because it doesn't work with your group's demands, is perfectly fine. If they force you to play a character you're no longer comfortable with, then you have some serious problems to address at your table.
If he dies, he dies, and I'll make something else. But for now I'm working with what I've got and trying to figure out ways to survive.
Ascalaphus wrote:
In particular, I wouldn't wait until level 7-8 to get your armor class right. You're going to have a bad time until then.
I agree. I think I'm going to pick up Sentinel at level 2 (free archetype) and Heavy Armor Proficiency at level 3. The campaign will end at level 12 so lacking Expert at level 13+ isn't a huge deal. I can use Fleet and Tailwind to make up for the speed penalties. I'll have Bulwark for Reflex saves and can improve that to +4 with the level 10 Sentinel thing.
Easl wrote:
Work with the party so that they use tactics that make the enemy go after them instead of you. Stay back. Have them get between you and the opponents. Ensure you have some 60' range attacks not just 30'. (Have someone) throw down difficult terrain when they can. Etc.
If your group runs more towards dungeon crawl run-and-gun or you're playing an AP like that, then you are probably better off going with what many other posters have suggested: a build that does the OOC stuff tolerably well but not excellent, but doesn't sacrifice AC or HP.
I'm definitely planning on avoiding attracting as much attention as possibly, using things like Invisibility too.
It is Abomination Vaults which sounds like a fairly big dungeon crawl but the DM claimed investigation and diplomacy would both be important.
Plane wrote:
You can get by without a lot of hp (False Life lasts 8 hours, 12gp on a scroll). You can't get by without AC in AV.
That sounds like a fascinating idea I will definitely be looking into.
Sir Belmont the Valiant, II wrote:
You say that you have played the character as a sorcerer once already. I would like to hear your report on that.
It was one session where we fought some small creatures throwing darts and then an animal and dealt with environmental stuff. Several people learning the VTT for the first time so slower going. Ended with going into another combat. Being vague to avoid any (minor) spoilers. So not much to go on yet.
Basically, by utilizing Arcana instead of a specific Lore skill, you drop the DC of whatever you Recall Knowledge on by 5. The Zombies might have needed a Religion DC 20, but with Arcana (Zombie Lore) it's just DC 15. This is equivalent to a +5 bonus to the Arcana skill for Recall Knowledge. You're still limited by triggering bloodmagic first, so you'll want to have enough focus points to use the skill.
I'm not convinced (nor does it seem most people are convinced) that situations like this allow you to use the lower Lore check. But I could absolutely use Arcana instead of Religion/Society/Nature/Occult.
Theaitetos wrote:
If you use that, then there's no need to raise your Intelligence sky high, a +1 or +2 should suffice - a Sprite or Gnome would be a good ancestry here.
Wouldn't the opposite be true -- focus everything on Int because you're using it to recall knowledge on everything? If anything it could let me drop Wis in favor of more Dex or Con.
Also race is set as human already, but he is Imperial bloodline.
I've already played a session as the sorcerer at this point so I'm hesitant to switch classes.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Spells like Mystic Armor can be helpful starting out, but unless you pick up Armor Proficiency (from Rogue or Sentinel, or the general feat), you will most almost always be behind except for maybe at max level.
I've been trying to look into some armor proficiency stuff with the assumption that I could make up for the movement penalty with Tailwind and suffer the penalty to athletics/acrobatics/stealth.
Sentinel multiclass gives me light and medium, but full plate is looking tempting with Bulwark. So then the question becomes getting light and medium before taking Sentinel. I could take Armor Proficiency twice but that would be level 3 and 7 I believe, so nothing for level 1/2, light armor from 3-6, medium armor at 7, and heavy armor at 8.
I can't take the Champion archetype due to lack of strength.
I could just take Sentinel at 2 and wear medium armor the whole campaign. This is -2 AC (due to lack of Dex unless I assign one boost to it) and no Bulwark.
I could take Sentinel at 2, Heavy Armor Proficiency at 3, and wear Full Plate the rest of the campaign since it'll probably end at level 12 (Abomination Vaults) so not having Expert at level 13+ probably won't matter.
Ah. So you aren't supposed to tell them things about how to play or what actions to take, but they can require you to play an arcane caster.
Let me clear: the DM and a player know each other, but the other three people (including the warpriest) are all strangers to everyone.
Only the warpriest's player had that weird reaction.
And the DM did not require it, I said "wanted" above for a reason. I said I'd fill the last slot with whatever the party needed.
Eoran wrote:
It may also be that the words of the Warpriest player are not directed at the Sorcerer player directly.
It was definitely directed at me after I made the post below. But again, he's the only one who had the weird reaction (and the GM thought it was a weird reaction too)...but he's also the only other caster or character with good mental stats, basically.
Based on this I see four things I think would work well, split into two different roles...
Melee Anchor
Although we already have three melee, none seem really suited for being able to just stand there and go toe to toe with enemies and some will want to dart in and out of melee. So here are two options:
1, Fighter with either a Greatsword or Halberd (haven't decided yet). Offense focused with the ability to do things like make enemies off-guard (for the rogue sneak attacking), frightened, and/or prone. Basically just turn the group into a melee blender.
2, Champion with Longsword and Shield. Defensive focused with the ability to tank/block hits and punish enemies who attack someone else (Champion's reaction). Basically more focused on drawing aggro from enemies and protecting the more fragile members, but less damage and lacking the debuffs of the Fighter.
Ranged Support
We could also say we have a lot of melee power but only one caster who is already giving up some casting power for melee capability. Therefore someone to support the melee might be nice. Here are two more options:
3, Bard, occult caster focused on buffing the melee and using support magic (things like Heightened Invisibility and the like).
4, Sorcerer/Wizard, arcane caster focused on blasting and debuffing enemies (with some buffs as available, but arcane has less than Divine or Occult, for example).
I had originally been considering a Divine Sorcerer (which would let us double up on healing for emergencies) but I don't know if we want two Divine casters specifically.
--------------------------------------
Right now I'm leaning towards the Fighter but I'm open to any of the above, I would welcome feedback."
That's the post that triggered the warpriest's response.
If your GM is willing to run with Free Archetype, you'll be in a lot less pain; double that if they're also willing to consider gradual ASI.
It is both free archetype and he's stated he wants to use gradual ability score improvements.
pauljathome wrote:
Depending on why you wanted to play the sorcerer in the first place
The DM wanted me to be either a wizard or arcane caster given the rest of the party:
"I'd like to see a wizard/sorcerer in the party, since we don't have any arcane characters yet. That could balance out things in composition and provide some more tools for investigating some of the mysteries of the adventure"
WatersLethe wrote:
Sacrifice a lot of those int boosts and pick up Additional Lore feats for the things you're supposed to be knowledgeable about, and don't be shy about retraining if necessary.
I was planning on taking additional lore, yeah.
Eoran wrote:
Why are you being relied upon to fill all of those roles? What is the rest of your adventuring party comprised of? And why can they not make some adjustments to take on some of this burden as well?
It's a random new group with random new people, not people I already know.
Group is a swashbuckler, a rogue, a warpriest, and me.
When I mentioned a few potential character concepts that *I* could play for the fourth slot the warpriest went on this mini-rant:
"[You seem] to me to be approaching play in a cold and methodical way, kinda like a WOW raid. Everyone is entitled to play in the manner that they choose but that's not the way I play this game. If I have to spend all my time trying to play only the most optimized actions, or God forbid be told which actions to take, then that sucks all the fun of the game for me. I mean no disrespect by this. I just don't play that way. It's not FUN. I don't play to 'WIN.'"
Ideally the warpriest could cover Religion and Nature, for example, with high wisdom but given his...interesting...response above I'm hesitant to say anything quite yet until we see how things are going in actual play. So I'm trying to cover everything in that regard...just in case.
Let them handle the physical, I'll handle the mental.
I'm basically being relied on to be the party face and the party knowledge bot.
Combat optimally, I'd start with 10 str/14 dex/14 con/10 int/12 wis/18 cha I believe.
But in this case I'm planning on starting with 10 str/10 dex/12 con/14 int/14 wis/18 cha.
Boosts are another problem. Normally at level 10 I'd have something like 10 str/18 dex/18 con/10 wis/16 wis/20 cha. But in this case it'd be 10 str/10 dex/16 con/18 int/18 wis/20 cha.
So now I'm 4 AC behind optimal and still a con modifier as well.
And obviously if I bump up dex instead I'm left with lower HP.
The campaign will end in the early teens I believe so there's no "catching up" later on by leaving int and wis at 18 and bumping dex and con more at that point.
Obviously you have things like staying back and general basic caster tactics, but any other thoughts on trying to survive in this scenario?
I've been running this as the rogue in the party can just always make a stealth check in the middle of an empty room and try to Sneak -- if he succeeds he isn't noticed, if he fails everyone still sees him.
But the failure condition of Sneak isn't being fully spotted, it's being hidden. Which made me re-examine the rules.
I *think* it's supposed to be the rogue can try to Hide at any point. If he succeeds he's now hidden, if he fails everyone still sees him.
THEN he has to Sneak and make another stealth check. If he succeeds he's undetected. If he fails he's hidden. If he critically fails he's observed.
