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Cevah wrote:
As to Permanency, if the GM allows, it would be priced at 17,500 gp and need a 15th level caster. [Standard for a 7th level spell such as Mage's Magnificent Mansion.]

Which at least in my case I'd have no problem with unless for some other reason the spell Create Demiplane, Lesser was banned from the campaign as in many way Create Demiplane, Lesser is every bit as powerful if not more so and can be made permanent via Permanency.

Ahh true, tripped up by older rules.

In addition to what LordKailas has suggested I'd considering Read Magic to be able to decipher any magical writings (such as foreign spell book) and Gaseous Form which has no V component and would allow escape from many cells, flight and DR=10/magic without further metamagic feats needed.

You might need to overcome Mage's Private Sanctum a 5th lvl spell whose sole purpose is to prevent being spied on, can be made Permanent and prevents both mundane means and magical divination upon the area by anyone outside the area.

Mage's Private Sanctum:

School abjuration; Level sorcerer/wizard 5

Casting Time 10 minutes

Components V, S, M (a sheet of lead, a piece of glass, a wad of cotton, and powdered chrysolite)

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Area 30-ft. cube/level (S)

Duration 24 hours (D)

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

This spell ensures privacy. Anyone looking into the area from outside sees only a dark, foggy mass. Darkvision cannot penetrate it. No sounds, no matter how loud, can escape the area, so nobody can eavesdrop from outside. Those inside can see out normally.

Divination (scrying) spells cannot perceive anything within the area, and those within are immune to detect thoughts. The ward prevents speech between those inside and those outside (because it blocks sound), but it does not prevent other communication, such as a sending or message spell, or telepathic communication, such as that between a wizard and his familiar.

The spell does not prevent creatures or objects from moving into and out of the area.

Mage's private sanctum can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

Another spell my own Loremaster tended to use was Detect Scrying a 4th lvl spell which detects scrying sensors (spells of the subschool scrying) in a 120ft radius around the caster and last 24 hrs with each casting. He used it at least once to counter scry and Dimension Door with his companions to the scriers location and very much surprised the spy.

Detect Scrying:

School divination; Level bard 4, sorcerer/wizard 4

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M (a piece of mirror and a miniature brass hearing trumpet)

Range 40 ft.

Area 40-ft.-radius emanation centered on you

Duration 24 hours

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

You immediately become aware of any attempt to observe you by means of a divination (scrying) spell or effect. The spell's area radiates from you and moves as you move. You know the location of every magical sensor within the spell's area.

If the scrying attempt originates within the area, you also know its location; otherwise, you and the scrier immediately make opposed caster level checks (1d20 + caster level). If you at least match the scrier's result, you get a visual image of the scrier and an accurate sense of his direction and distance from you.

And any magical scrying sensor, whether from Arcane Eye, Clairvoyance or the Scrying spell can be perceived by anyone able to make DC 20+spell level Perception check. There have been several threads discussing whether the check is/can be subject to further modifiers and if that is merely the base DC or not.

An awful lot of how difficult it would be to spy magically or by mundane methods depends on a very large number of factors. In particular the level of the various folks involved especially the casters, whether the wizard is in his stronghold, his foes or somewhere else public or private, friendly or otherwise. What, for instance is society's expectations, diplomatic immunity, etc.. Embassy's in the real world have been bulldozed and rebuilt because it was assumed they were too bug ridden to be 'used'. But yes Arcane casters in particular have a lot of magical means to block and/or detect spying on them. Flipside is they also possess a large number of ways to spy on other folks including other arcane or divine casters. And all that is within the Paizo publications, you get into 3rd party stuff or conversion of earlier edition materials (Rary's Replay of the Past, for example) and ... .

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
RJ Dalton 89 wrote:
and epic damage reduction reducing all hits by 5? (DR 10 seemed a bit much since none of them are going to have epic weapons at this point).

Didn't some rulebook establish that a weapon will penetrate DR/epic if its actual plus effective enhancement bonuses add up to +6 or more? (e.g. +5 flaming or +1 vorpal) Can't remember where I saw that.

EDIT: "effective" is the wrong word there... I mean bonus-equivalent, the bonus "price" of the properties.

I'm recalling the same thing but a quick search and I haven't located it as of yet.

Give its tentacle/Drain power the Grab ability. This will leave other attacks unhampered and Chaugnar Faugn will not gain the Grappled condition when it elects to attack this way (he'll make the CMB at -20).

Weird and Phantasmal Killer might make good SLA offensive spells for a creature with horrific powers.

What level is the Arcanist? Mid level puts it in the ball park, but still leaves some room between barely casts 3rd level and he's got 5th level spells.

And essentially that was dotting for future comments

Heh :D
We might not agree about access to a demiplane as a weakness or not, but I think we agree the potential for time travel opens a Pandora's Box worth of issues/solutions.

PS: without houserules or mythic power using plane shift means the demiplane is enormous. At least 5 miles in radius or otherwise accounting for its problematic accuracy for either invader or returning caster

Bizarre sidethought can you even spend a week on a 'timeless' demiplane? Using another plane as reference (in this case the material) brings up other zaniness, such as "I'm off the astral where everything happens faster so ... "

Or use the portal. Not all, in fact most I'd hazard, don't seal themselves away with no intent, now or in the future, of ever leaving again or

A) It's going to be a very short adventure

B) Spells might exist ( dm or otherwise created) that will allow for finding and accessing an otherwise sealed demiplane. While the DM might know the limits in his campaign it is somewhat foolish and metagame for a PC who creates a demiplane to assume they know all the ways his stronghold might be breached.

C) And a campaign involving time travel by multiple parties is already well off into DM fiat realm.

Sorry our Goblin Paragon is immune to all spells above 5th level and has Supreme Evasion (grant's a save vs all spells 4th level and lower even if no save is normally allowed by expending a point of Mythic power. Negates all effects of the spell with a successful save):P

PS yes I totally fabricated 'Supreme Evasion' so don't go looking for it.

-The PCs do not need to kill the Wizard to accomplish their goal.
-There are fates far worse than dying when you are 20th level (or even 14th with Mythic levels).
Wizard created demiplanes are not as permanent as one might think:

Spell Index, text of Create Demiplane, Lesser wrote:
As a standard action, you may eject a creature from your demiplane. The creature may resist with a Will saving throw. An ejected creature goes to the closest plane to your demiplane (usually the Astral Plane or the Ethereal Plane, but if you cast this spell on the Material Plane, the creature is sent to the Material Plane). When the spell ends, the plane dissolves, and all creatures in the plane are ejected in this manner with no saving throw. The plane cannot be dispelled, but a creature on the plane can destroy it by using limited wish, mage's disjunction, miracle, or wish and making a successful dispel check.

Might be beyond the party or not, but in general the spell isn't without its drawbacks that seem to get forgotten at times in threads like this.

-Wizards even 20th level ones can be killed. Killing them isn't the problem it's them not staying dead. But usually there's a delay between getting dead and not being dead anymore.
-And there is always someone more powerful (or more lucky) than the current creature. In other words 20th level Wizards have folks that can make them wish they were dead.
-For every divination there's an abjuration. It's an endless 'arms' race.
-There are no wizards who know of and have access to every spell in existance. The folks who do are more commonly known as deities of magic. Just because you've never seen a Sunder Planar Boundary spell doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Doubly so in a world where Time Travel magic exists.
-Don't rely on Antimagic. Not everything magic fails in Antimagic. I wouldn't count on 20th level wizards not knowing what does work in Antimagic or Dead Magic areas.
-Clones won't have the equipment of the original. Their equipment is unique to them and generally provided by the original. There goes some more WBL (possibly)

Slim Jim wrote:

Rogue, to the wizard's front-man: "I represent a group of investors who have learned that your master is one of the few persons in possession of a rare (McGuffin). They are inquiring what his rate would be to craft another, or what his price would be for parting with the one that he has."

(That will throw the GM off his railroad, and open the possibility of having the L20 wizard for a patron rather than an adversary.)

And unless the PCs know something we don't about the wizard negotiation can certainly be an excellent idea.

Edit: Seems the internet has eaten a different post, I'll have to post again later.

In addition to the all the above most of which sum up as "it is already accounted for in their stats", they are all NPC creatures. They exist and do what they need to do for the campaign and its story at the whim of the DM. If you need a Solar with effectively +10 ability scores across the board it just happens without need to worrying about whether they used wish or miracle or an artifact or ... All hail the DM! Explaining how is more of a thought excercise and perhaps a control on getting so far out of line with "RAW" that your Solar is effectively a different DM created creature than a Solar who used a lot of wishes.

46. The Dragon is threatening the settlement with death and destruction if their demands (a virgin, pile of gold etc.) are not met.
47. Heir to the throne (aka the spoiled but kind princess) is running away to avoid an unwanted marriage.
48. An recent earthquake or landslide has uncovered an ancient ruin/dungeon.

It's also possible the base DC is 0, then add either 40 or 20 depending on if it's moving or not, then spell level, then distance and other factors, and whatever other modifiers the DM thinks relevant.

They do have a tendency whilst making wub wub, glurp noises to be lurking in the dark recesses of the corner of the inn ... similar to the noises the guests make slurping down the local gruel. Which helps avoid detection:P

And what's the other thing Monk's or Horsemen/Cavalry have in common that help enable skirmishing tactics. Mobility, often in the form of a greater base speed though it may take a couple levels to kick in in the case of a Monk.

Look for ways to combine move/attack/move with a greater base speed. A Bard for instance can cast Expeditious Retreat or Rangers use Longstrider. Both can be had on Wands. Later Haste comes along. Consider taking Fleet (which is not an enhancement bonus to move speed) then retraining out of it later when you can access Spring Attack. That extra 5 ft can put one out of melee range more readily against early, often M or S sized foes as they can no longer actually match you in speed. Similarly use a reach weapon combined with the extra 5ft to strike while minimizing return attacks or AoO attacks. Similar to Fleet, Run can be useful allowing you to retain you Dex to AC while moving more than double your base speed. Overall you may have to get used to striking then breaking contact as a group tactic particularly if there is no heavy armor melee type in the group. Over all it's slower to take down foes but it can be vastly more suited to survival.

I once had a Barbarian character who had both Fleet and Run (partially as an experiment to see how bad that might actually be). He also had Improved Initiative and in the occasional instance it was quite worth it for the looks I'd get when in an outdoor open terrain encounter he'd move upwards of 200+ft (surprise -> move (45ft)+winning initiative -> Run (another 225ft) right off the bat and get up in the foes faces long before the "foes" (i.e. DM) expected to be having to deal with a melee opponent (and risk free move into their rear line squishies). Poor mans Dimension Door.

Claxon wrote:

Teleportation circle and teleportation trap are completely different functions.

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Teleport trap prevents creatures from getting into an area, though it does also redirect those who teleport into or out of the area to a specific location. Teleport trap doesn't do anything if someone else doesn't cast a teleport spell trying to leave or go to the warded area.

Teleportation circle is a continuous teleport effect that can be used by anyone who can move to the location of it for the duration of the spell to teleport to a specific location.

It can be used both as a means of transpot for creatures aware of its existence but it can also be a trap, sending creatures unaware of its presence to a designated and potentially unfriendly destination on the same plane of existence. Bolding mine.

Text of Teleportation Circle wrote:

You create a circle on the floor or other horizontal surface that teleports, as greater teleport, any creature who stands on it to a designated spot. Once you designate the destination for the circle, you can't change it. The spell fails if you attempt to set the circle to teleport creatures into a solid object, to a place with which you are not familiar and have no clear description, or to another plane.

The circle itself is subtle and nearly impossible to notice. If you intend to keep creatures from activating it accidentally, you need to mark the circle in some way.

Teleportation circle can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent teleportation circle that is disabled becomes inactive for 10 minutes, then can be triggered again as normal.

Magic traps such as teleportation circle are hard to detect and disable. A character with the trapfinding class feature can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 34 in the case of teleportation circle.

This trap usage is what I am talking about. No it won't redirect an incoming teleporter but it can send someone unaware of its presence to a prepped cell or similar if the caster of the Circle wished to set it up that way. There is no indication that they have to desire the teleport for it to occur. Step off the elevator into the vault, stop to look around and poof welcome to my holding cell readied for your arrival, for example. Not really that different than a wizard trying to teleport in with companions and running into the effect of Teleport Trap (and failing the save).

Claxon wrote:

Teleport trap may seem lower level for it's effect, because despite being very powerful it only does one thing, stop people from teleporting into someplace you don't want them to.

Pathfinder has a record of making spells that have a very narrow focus to be lower level than you might otherwise expect.

Oh I agree with that, hence the part about not being sure about whether the problem was more with the other spells. My main concern is Teleportation Circle does a very similar thing, is 9th level, is shorter in duration than Teleport Trap, a smaller aoe and in some ways even more limited as in you have to enter the Circle (and stand there) to be effected at all vs just trying to Teleport (or Plane Shift or Dimension Door or ...) into a much larger area. About the only real advantage of Teleportation Circle is the lack of any save. You stop and stand there and the only way not to go bye-bye is a strong SR.

@Meirril - The link to the Contract Devil sent me to the entry for a Barbed Devil aka Hamatula on the d20PFSRD site. I did find an entry for a Contract Devil on the Archives of Nethys site. Flooding the area with the overwhelming brilliance of the positive energy plane is an interesting idea but I suspect the Descreants would find having to fight in either the vault or the overly bright positive energy filled cavern difficult at best if not outright extremely harmful (unless I'm totally missing my Knowledge check).

zza ni wrote:
Kayerloth wrote:

The best way to block Teleportation subschool magic is to prevent any access to the Astral Plane, next best are things like Dimensional Lock. Claxon's demiplane idea also works well ... means they need a side quest most likely to steal an existing Attuned Rod from one of the Smugglers. This is all effected by how your group envisions the planar cosmology (or at least how you envision it).
the reason i opted for teleport trap is that it block teleportation. it ether send the teleporting party into a trap (if they fail the save) or just outright prevent the teleportation (if they save). ether way ward from teleportation.

Interesting I thought you were talking about Teleportation Circle. Definitely yet another way to block or mitigate Conjuration(teleportation) magic with an offensive twist added in. It doesn't clarify what happens if the SR check is successful. I'd personally lean strongly to the teleport happens as intended by the teleporting creature rather than acts as if the Save was made. I'm also not entirely comfortable with the seeming power difference between this spell and Dimensional Lock and more so Teleportation Circle as in many ways it combines those effects into one spell which is also lower level than either the above (but I'm not sure if I think the later are too weak or Teleport Trap is too strong for their relative levels). But that's a separate issue for another thread perhaps.

Dotting for interest

In addition to what was covered above the tendency to run into larger sized foes with reach means it's harder to get to/reach the next foe for the attack. Two orcs vs two hill giants for example.

Little late with this information but it also used to be an item enhancement which could be used to enhance magical armor. The first time (in a 24hr period) the user was subject to Death magic the enhancement would protect them as if Death Ward had been cast. The enhancement was permanent so essentially 1/day you were protected by Death Ward as needed.

While it's tempting to use lethal spells (and a few are probably to be expected) I'd lean towards spells designed to incapacitate or slow invaders/robbers down so as to allow time for a response to be mounted against the the intruders. Or for similar reasons spells, like Alarm, designed to alert the Smugglers to an intruders presence and hence allow for a response. There was a spell called Transfix a 6th level Wu Jen spell from Oriental Adventures which might make for an interesting spell to use. You'd need to tweak it to update for PF rules but that should be fairly straight forward. Bonus if combined with the presence of Mind Fog and note it targets the area not creatures.

Text of Transfix:
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Wuj 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: 10-ft. burst
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell causes humanoids of Medium-size or smaller within
the area to freeze in place, standing helpless as if affected by the
hold person spell. When casting the spell, you must specify some
condition that must be met to release the victims—“Wait here
until I return,” or “Stay here for all eternity!” for example. You
may specify any condition, however implausible, but the spell
ends as soon as that condition is met. For every hour the creatures are transfixed, they can attempt another saving throw.
The spell affects an area, not (directly) the creatures in it, so
creatures that are removed from the area are freed from the spell’s
effects, and humanoids of Medium-size or smaller that enter the
area must make a successful saving throw or become transfixed.
If all affected creatures are freed from the spell, the spell ends
and additional creatures entering the area are not affected.
Material Component: A drop of pine resin.

Responders, such as Descreants, are much more likely to use lethal force, of course. 112 Smugglers could be expected to have a substantial and potent response planned for any intruders in terms of number and capabilities of the creatures involved.

If the PC's are 10th level is there something else about the Descreants Circle of Death that makes it a threat? The spell has no effect on creatures of 9 or more HD. And that's without considering Death Ward, Spell Immunity etc.

2 "obvious" vault doors fully trapped containing useless junk and cursed items the smugglers did not want. This area, the bottom of the elevator can be covered with Private Sanctum and/or False Vision. To prevent or mislead those spying on the layout remotely.

2 "real" vault doors are both effected by Sequester - only perceived by direct tactile touch. Behind those doors is the wall, the wall has a Phase Door to access the actual vault. Those entering the vault through the Phase Door deal with Symbols or Greater Glyphs of your choice upon entering the vault proper. Destroying the wall or otherwise bypassing the Phase Door triggers other defenses (arrival perhaps of the Descreants) Mind Fog plus Will based saves can be a nasty combo.

portion of Phase Door text:
You can allow other creatures to use the phase door by setting some triggering condition for the door. Such conditions can be as simple or elaborate as you desire. They can be based on a creature's name, identity, or alignment, but otherwise must be based on observable actions or qualities. Intangibles such as level, class, HD, and hit points don't qualify. Phase door can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

The best way to block Teleportation subschool magic is to prevent any access to the Astral Plane, next best are things like Dimensional Lock. Claxon's demiplane idea also works well ... means they need a side quest most likely to steal an existing Attuned Rod from one of the Smugglers. This is all effected by how your group envisions the planar cosmology (or at least how you envision it).

A Created Demiplane does not have to be on the Material. It merely has to be on the Astral or Ethereal Plane or access to them.

Claxon wrote:
Roll stats in order really forces a lot of builds is all it does.

Yep, could you survive and eventually have a strong caster or martial build yes. But your choices tend to get strongly focused on overcoming those weakness or working around them. Instead of increasing diversity it risks decreasing it. And likely the DM has more work making sure they don't TPK the party with a single spell or effect or creature that normally could be handled by a party of a given level.

I was assuming that was the final ability score during creation. Even so I think a Martial type would be easier to buff back to reasonable especially if their score was in the 10+ to start. There aren't really any buffs that'll give the spell caster back his missing spell levels. He'd still be short Dispel Magic or what not at a level where he is expected to have them by a designed adventure. Hard to use spells that don't allow saves if you can't even cast them (hello Wands). Claxon does point out at least a number of ways to mitigate the rolls. And I didn't say impossible I just think rough is a tad bit of an understatement if your final adjusted starting score is that low for a caster.

OmniMage wrote:

I'm in favor of buying your stats. You are not going to be a spell caster with an ability of 9. Even with an ability of 10 or 11, things are going to be rough.

That said, maybe the odd one shot with characters whose stats were randomly generated might be interesting. However, I wouldn't expect to play such characters for many sessions.

I do recall that there was an article in a Dragon magazine covering characters with low ability scores. A character with a low strength score aught to try using a big melee weapon so they have a chance of dealing damage. A character with low dex should wear armor. A character with a low con should try to max AC. Thats all I can remember right now.

Rough barely begins to describe it in my opinion.

CRB, Getting Started wrote:
A wizard gains bonus spells based on his Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell's level.

Your wizard with 10 Int is going to have lots of slots filled with cantrips. At least there's plenty to do with Metamagic ... an utter master with Ray of Frost. Forget about a 9 Int. It will similarly hamper any spell caster who, umm, relies on spells AFAIK they all base it on their ability score. Your fighter can at least manage to swing most weapons unless they've got a truly low score.

Edit: I do suppose with a +6 item and 4+ inherent bonus if they do survive somehow they will eventually gain the ability to use 9th level spells. Might even manage 3rd level spells by the time 6th level rolls around.

I'd use it only if everyone was onboard and willing to accept the results. It will lend itself to quite a bit of variance in stats across the group. Biased against MAD characters. Players could find themselves running a character type they don't enjoy i.e. the guy who likes Fighter/melee types rolling stats notably better for wizard or cleric characters.

The part about it from both a player and DM standpoint I'd really not like is the diversity of stats generated. I personally really dislike it when a character is stuck with scores significantly worse than the other characters in the group. I much prefer a level playing field in that respect. I have no problem with "weaker" stats as long as the group as a whole also has weaker stats.

TheGreatWot wrote:
This is one example of a spell that is not only better against certain creatures, but also targets said creatures by gimping their save. Why did they attach that -4 penalty for spellcasters?

Primary reason I imagine is legacy. The spell has been ugly for spellcasters from day one. I suspect it's meant in part to offset the fact that most Magic Users (errrm Wizards, I mean) have strong Will saves and the spell is supposed to be a special threat to them.

JiCi wrote:
<snip>Scrying/spying on a dragon is also as risky.<snip>

A dragons acute senses (in part represented by high Perception skills) should make this extremely difficult if not impossible. The d20 check needed to perceive a Scrying sensor is 20+spell level and most chromatic dragons are hitting a total bonus of the low to mid twenties by the time they are adults. Add in magic usage and "Dragon senses" and scrying sensors aren't going to remain undetected long. An adult Red for example has a +23 Perception. Without other modifiers that's an auto success against the base DC of 24 for a literal Scry (4th level spell) sensor.

-Boiling water/steam could be an unexpected threat found in and around a volcano or cauldera lair of a Red Dragon.
-Even if protected against fire they could still be submerged in lava and effectively drown/suffocate if held under by the dragon.
-Maybe the Dragon has learned to throw "lavaballs". Make it a ranged touch attack for 2d6 fire damage followed by 1d3 rounds of 1d6 fire damage. And if you want to play extra nasty the magma/lava hardens and acts like a tanglefoot bag and/or adds a Dex penalty until the target spends a full round knocking solidifying lava off their bodies.
-Use Pyrotechnics to create plenty of smoke which also generates potential Str and Dex penalties. Should be an essentially endless supply for his at will SLA.
-Maybe his inner lair is situated much like a Beaver Lodge ... you have to go down and through a lava filled tunnel to reach the area (or somehow figure out where to use Disintegrate or similar to get in)
-Part of using his environment is the intense heat throughout much of the lair. Any failure against the heat results in fatigue and the associated penalties. Note the penalties to the save for those wearing heavy clothing or armor of any kind.

Heat Dangers:
Heat Dangers
Heat deals nonlethal damage that cannot be recovered from until the character gets cooled off (reaches shade, survives until nightfall, gets doused in water, is targeted by endure elements, and so forth). Once a character has taken an amount of nonlethal damage equal to her total hit points, any further damage from a hot environment is lethal damage.

A character in very hot conditions (above 90° F) must make a Fortitude saving throw each hour (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a –4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and might be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well (see the skill description). Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per hour).

In severe heat (above 110° F), a character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a –4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and might be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well (see the Survival skill in Using Skills). Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per each 10-minute period).

A character who takes any nonlethal damage from heat exposure now suffers from heatstroke and is fatigued. These penalties end when the character recovers from the nonlethal damage she took from the heat.

Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of fire damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a –4 penalty on their saves.

Boiling water deals 1d6 points of scalding damage, unless the character is fully immersed, in which case it deals 10d6 points of damage per round of exposure.

I'd even consider increasing the frequency of the extreme heat checks. The heat within the any volcanic caverns goes well beyond "extreme". Dispel Magic could be game changing in this environment, especially if the PC's find themselves 10's of minutes inside those caverns when or if their protections go away.

I'm thinking you are right about the Range of Discern Location. Suspect it slipped by the editor/writer with them thinking unlimited meant just that - unlimited. Can't think offhand why it would be horribly unbalancing to treat it that.

Even so the entrance/portal should be on the plane (both planes actually) where the caster used Create demiplane and potentially be identified and located by Discern Location.

Must go for now, lunch break is over

The way I tend to think of a demiplane such as one created by the Create line of spells is as if they are a layer of the transitive plane from where they are created much as the lower layers of Hell are layers of the whole. Generally when you travel via spells (or even by portals) you end up on the 1st layer of Hell. It takes rarer, harder to discover Forks or portals to bypass the 1st layer to access a lower layer directly. A Created demiplane is merely the first layer of potentially infinite (picture the Abyss) number of layers such as if the creator nests series of demiplanes as a manner of protection for his innermost sanctum.

As far as randomly wandering onto a wizard's personal demiplane first there is the problem of size. It's a finite and relative tiny area when compared to the infinite whole of a transitive plane so finding a desired and specific wizards demiplane is realistically not going to happen. I'd be highly suspicious of things if I just happened to stumble on the correct demiplane I wanted to find "randomly". That positively screams TRAP!. "Hello my name is Acererak. I have seeded clues about my demiplane demense's location and existence so only the most powerful and adept adventurers could locate it and gain entrance. Then I will destroy them and collect their souls to power my apothesis."

Then there's even seeing it without walking right by. It's very much like traveling along and spotting (perceiving) the entrance to Mage's Magnificent Mansion (an invisible area roughly 4ft by 8ft in size) without continuing by obliviously. That is very much in the hands of the DM ... as this assumes there is something to see while moving by on the adjoining plane.

Which brings up the next problem how to get in even after you've found it. Unless a way in is provided you literally need a spell which can cross planes to enter. Only the Greater version provides for a portal so one can enter and as noted it can be physically and magically protected. So maybe if you happen to realize what you've found you could cast an appropriate spell and gain entrance.

Discern Location might do the trick but it's range is Unlimited ... which means it is limited to the same plane of existence. Clearly the demiplane itself is not or there would be no need for planar travel magic to access it. Likewise even if you know a tremendous amount of information about the wizard themselves if they are currently on another plane (such as within their demiplane) they are out of range (assuming you've found a wizard who isn't mentally protected by Mind Blank). You might be able to somehow find the entrance or more specifically the stone and mortar gatehouse protecting the portal.

Ahh, true my apologies to adding to the body confused. Native in that case refers to a subtype vs "I'm a native of New Golarion City".

Bestiary wrote:
Native Subtype: This subtype is applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane. Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

Bellona wrote:
Also (IIRC) the 20th level Monk is a native Outsider, not an extra-planar one.

Depends entirely on where the speakers currently are.

The Monk is an Outsider normally found on the Prime Material Plane. He would be extra-planar anytime he is not on the Prime Material Plane, and more specifically anytime he is not on the Prime Material Plane where he was born/originated if the cosmology presumed other Material Planes existed or did exist. When he is on his Plane of origin he is a "native" Outsider. Outsider is his creature type, Extra-Planar is more properly thought of as a spell descriptor describing the way he interacts with spells such as Holy Word or in this case Gate. All it really means both in English and in the game is you are extra-planar anytime you are on a plane other than the one you were born on and on that plane you would be considered native instead.

And yes "they've" managed to make a simple concept confusing over the course of multiple editors and editions of the game.

And ninja'd in large part by Claxon's quoted text.
And the bit about Transitive Planes is interesting (and more or less adds to the overall confusion :P) Edit (again) to add: adds to the confusion because there are "natives" to the mentioned transitive planes so instead of natives and extraplanar creatures you have natives and ... non-natives?? found there.

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Volkard Abendroth wrote:
avr wrote:

Taking a look, direct-fire siege weapons (ballistas, cannons etc.) do use attack rolls and could theoretically sneak attack, indirect-fire siege weapons (catapults, bombards etc.) use a special check to target a square and couldn't, and others with their own special mechanics couldn't as far as I can tell.

Good luck hiding a cannon within 30' of an enemy though.

Don't need to hide it, just need to way to render your opponent flat-footed.


Or gain initiative/go first, maybe a Diviner Siege Engineer?

Wheldrake wrote:
OK, I got curious and went and read it. Yes, they assign specific cost to these tuning forks, and describe a method for properly tuning one: it generally requires you to go there and spend 24 hours tuning it properly. Aside from that, one could easily imagine finding pre-tuned forks in the loot of powerful wizards. A great quest opportunity if I've ever seen one. <g>

Also pretty much eliminates using it to go to a spell casters private demiplane demense ... unless they previously allowed you there.

I also have not read the Planar Adventures pages nor I'm I likely to be able to do so any time soon. Do they happen to address the question in the later part of my post?

Short answer is no.

Longer answer is no, but this item is entirely at the DM's discretion and probably design.

Bolding mine

CRB, Intelligent Items wrote:

Magic items sometimes have intelligence of their own. Magically imbued with sentience, these items think and feel the same way characters do and should be treated as NPCs. Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers and special purposes. Only permanent magic items (as opposed to single-use items or those with charges) can be intelligent. (This means that potions, scrolls, and wands, among other items, are never intelligent.) In general, less than 1% of magic items have intelligence.

Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. Intelligent items often have the ability to illuminate their surroundings at will (as magic weapons do); many cannot see otherwise.

Unlike most magic items, intelligent items can activate their own powers without waiting for a command word from their owner. Intelligent items act during their owner's turn in the initiative order.

To fully restore the item including its ability scores and resulting intelligence is beyond anything short of Wish or Miracle. Make Whole and Greater Make would restore only those magical properties the item had without its intelligence (Int, Wis and Cha) but that's entirely my opinion on what I'd do. It really is a case of ask your DM, theirs is truly the only one that matters.

It is a very old spell. I never played or had access to the original D&D/Chain Mail rules. The earliest I knew about it was in AD&D where it was a max level (7th) cleric spell. There were no 8th or 9th level cleric spells at that time.

Few thoughts
The spell is really meant for travel. That said it doesn't prevent spell casting strictly speaking. You would require the appropriate metamagic feats just as you would when in Gaseous Form.

Keeping in mind the caster can dismiss the spell for an individual (a standard action) I'd rule it takes concentration to transform over 5 rounds, requiring a standard action each of those 5 rounds by the one transforming. I would allow the caster to use a single standard action to dismiss as many individuals as desired.

To be honest I'd probably rework the text concerning 80% chance to be mistaken etc.. I'd probably treat them as if under Chameleon Stride (i.e. +4 to Stealth and 20% miss chance if targeted by someone). At least that's where I'd start and see how it plays out/works in game. And you might get me to up the bonus to Stealth, it just wouldn't be as high as for being Invisible. This portion of the PF text is heavily legacy/cut and paste in nature.

Yqatuba wrote:
While we're on the subject, why is plane shift always off target from where you intend to go? Has there been even a fig leaf of justification for this?

I'll go you one better. No where does it say what happens if your 'inaccuracy' would land you beyond the planar boundary, i.e. not all Planes are infinite in size what happens if your roll is 300 miles off on a Plane only 200 miles across. Shunted? Spell fails/fizzles? Other?

As for how common are the properly tuned forks?

For me they vary. Things like the Prime Material Plane you are native of as well as the "top layers" of the Outer Planes, the 4 Elemental Planes, the Ethereal and Shadow Planes are all fairly common and I'd be willing to considered them in a spell component pouch (for instance). Others not so much. Others I would place beyond the easy reach of a spell component pouch but would require fairly minimal research to locate or purchase one. Others would be ever increasingly difficult. For example, an Attuned Fork to Acererak's private demiplane would be all but impossible outside of many quests and research (and probably failures) to even get a hint not to mention to defenses one might encounter even trying such a stunt.

Slyme wrote:
You can even sneak attack with some spells too. Great gimmick for Arcane Tricksters.

Pretty much any spell that requires a to hit roll can be used provided the rest of the requirements are met.

I've always run it as the change to gaseous happened upon completion of the spell and only subsequent changes took 5 rounds. Otherwise the casting time would be longer to my thinking. But yes it is not crystal clear as written. Bottom line for me is let your players know your decision perhaps after a discussion and be consistent.

I'll add to the string of no's. If he is first level then he is replacing his wizard character with a barbarian character. If not then he must pay all costs just as if he was leveling/retraining the character.

Yes, any willing creatures touching each other should suffice. I wouldn't even require that they all be in direct contact with the caster as long as they form a set of continuous links to the caster.

I would add that to both encourage the hunter to remain with his group standing guard and to allow the hunter to feel more utility ith his spell I might on occasion have another threat materialize. Perhaps it took a few rounds for some foes that did hear the prior combat to organize and approach for example.

Need to read up a bit more but didn't see any indication of what happens if a second creature doesn't join the grapple as much as start their own grapple. Or if this is joining the grapple seems to rather punish the second grappler if for example the groups dedicated grappler jumps in to help the wizard escape the grapple. Seems like it should be add +2 to the best rather than the first grapplers check. Or did I miss something?

Dotting for interest

Takeaways for me so far from this and other similar threads such as the one noted by Serum above i.e. "currently active thread".

1) KISS -> It says spells can be identified via Spellcraft. Don't think too hard about how, just accept.
2) Manifestations are a nice aesthetic to add to spell. Things like summoning an Imp get more flavor if the room smells faintly of brimstone or sulfur.
3) Manifestations are left to the DM's and party's imagination.
4) For #2 and #3 see number #1
5) The "other factors" listed in the description of Spellcraft are too undefined to be useful beyond 'stuff not already noted'. They can safely be held under the DM's umbrella of Circumstance bonuses whatever they might be, no need to go looking for them. See #1.
6)Components play absolutely no role in identifying a spell. And that totally makes no intuitive sense to this DM, but GM Rednal does bring up some interesting thoughts on why that might be true. Not to mention on why a Stilled Silent Eschewed version of Gate vs the normal Gate is exactly the same DC to Spellcraft.
7) Ummm Material Components can play a role in Identifying a spell after the fact ... but apparently can't help you while its being cast. See Knowledge Arcana. And see #1, of course.
8) Unless I'm missing it the presence of a Focus or Divine Focus isn't accounted for under either Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana even though it is noted for a Material component under Knowledge Arcana. Okay, thinking that's an oversight ... see #1.
9) Trying to make a mechanical effect out of Manifestations in a short paragraph or two will result in a quagmire at least as bad as the Stealth rules. See #1.
10) Possible Cabbage hit it on the head for me in many ways with the post of:

Possible Cabbage wrote:
I feel like if people aren't paying attention to you, they aren't really any more likely to notice you if you cast detect thoughts than they are if you were picking pockets, drinking a potion, drawing a weapon, opening a door, etc. Whole point is to make "casting spells" to be a thing people can notice if they happen to be paying attention to you.

Edit to add: As for SLA's well treat them as spells with if you must the appropriate Metamagic to eliminate the components (which as we've seen have no effect on identifying a spell). And as for Su abilities ... lack of the ability to counterspell says a lot about the inability to id it via Spellcraft. See #1

Manifestations are an effect of casting a spell. Not of concentration on an ongoing spell. Nor is anything stated to indicate manifestions occur over a greater period of time than the time spent while casting. Anything like adding that the smell of lilacs lingers in the air (or brimstone as a classic example) for several rounds after casting is purely in the realm of flavor text by an individual DM in their own home campaign.

Paladins or Wizards focused on their spell effects (i.e. concentrating to learn something more while using the spell) are easily seen as focused on something just like any individual is when focused intently on what they are doing.

Note also the 'target' of Detect Evil or Magic or 'Blank' is not really a person or object it is an Aura associated with the creature or object. The creature or object that has or left the aura my be long gone particularly in the case of gaining info about a Lingering Aura from a Strong or Overwhelming source.

Snowball- Protection from Elements (Cold) will provide immunity to cold at 12/hp level to max of 120 hp. Keep another memorized, perhaps Quickened. to provide continued coverage as the first runs out or low on protection left. Would also help vs Fireball.

Anything that allows SR will be stopped by Spell Immunity or Greater Spell Immunity. Extend metamagic helpful. Everything except Snowball and Black Tentacles on your list would be stopped. Downside is the spell is generally a divine spell so if you are an arcane caster an investment in UMD.

Gaseous Form provides DR=10/magic and makes you insubstantial. Unfortunately "insubstantial" isn't a defined game term so you may or may not be immune to grapple attempts. Ask your GM, YYMV. It also requires an investment in Metamagic to be able to cast spells while Gaseous. I did have a character though that used it to great effect. She would cast Gaseous Form then surround herself with Black Tentacles. Not much could get at her at that point without risking getting grappled trying to reach her.

Dispel Magic will get rid of Summons (and is a universal counterspelling choice AFAIK)

Spell Turning (spell a bit high for you or an item)

GM Rednal wrote:

I don't think a newly researched spell qualifies as an "other factor" for identification. There's nothing in the rules text that states player-researched spells are any harder to identify and counterspell - you can identify (and, more importantly, counter) magic even if you're seeing it for the first time and have never so much as heard of the spell.

I like to think of it as casters being engineers studying a mechanical device, like something with lots of pistons and cogs. They may not have seen the device before, but since they understand how each part of the device works, they can effectively deduce how it's meant to work through observation... and where to shove in a pipe to make the whole thing grind to a halt. For magic, the parts of the machine are the casting manifestation, and sufficient magical training or innate awareness (i.e. ranks in Spellcraft, explicitly used for checks involving "the technical art of casting a spell") makes it possible to understand what you're seeing.

Some of the following is just thinking out loud.

And that's where the whole thing starts to lose me. It makes no intuitive sense (your logic does given the starting point) that a spell that is very common and often seen by a caster would be as easy to ID as one that only a handful of casters may have seen (the creator and perhaps a few assistants or associates). It does make a certain sense that to counter the spell you don't need to fully understand its inner and complete workings. Your engineeer, to carry on with the analogy, knows that he sees pistons and while not really knowing what the machine does, does know that generally stopping moving parts like pistons is a good way to foul up a machine and keep it from working. The problem is he still doen't know if the machine is supposed to move wheels to go down the road, rocket into the air flying or launch something across the river all rather different outcomes i.e. is a Glyph with a Fireball, a Wall of Fire or Fire Shield. Sure they are all Element (Fire) spells but ... . It strikes me as a better explanation as to how Dispel Magic would be used to unravel the spell (either thru countering or just plain dispelling it after the fact)

Part of my issue I think is they are shoe horning an explanation in that initially no one bothered to account for. It was just handwaved basically that somehow the spell could be identified but no real attempt was made to explain how. You made a Spellcraft check and you knew without any explanation how it worked to ID the spell, at least sufficiently to counter it. And this explanation is using a reason that never really existed until manifestations became a thing (beyond a very nebulous idea represented primarily by artwork). And therefore butts up against all sorts of preconceived notions on how things work or don't work. And the term 'other factors' is about as vague as it gets when it comes to a rule.

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