Player Core 2 Preview: The Swashbuckler, Remastered

I wish we got an example of an activity with the bravado trait as well

I wish we got an example of an activity with the bravado trait as well

I imagine After You feat is a example of what Bravado feats will look like.

Zot is looking forward to being even more Magnificent when Remastered!

Excited to see Swashbucklers become a little more consistent. Sounds good.

... Not a huge fan of the last 8 words of Twirling Throw though. Almost complete replacing the need for a returning rune but adding in a small chance to lose your weapon on any given attack feels like it could be very frustrating in actual play in non-ABP Games.

Almost complete replacing the need for a returning rune but adding in a small chance to lose your weapon on any given attack feels like it could be very frustrating in actual play in non-ABP Games.

Honestly, I feel the opposite. A returning rune is 55 gold, and that's an entire class feat. Sure, this works for all thrown weapons and ignores some range penalties for weapons with very short range increments, but there's also the thrower's bandolier that can gather your stuff back up, and can have a returning rune put on it. So for 115 gold, you have this feat minus the range increment caveats.

Nice try with Twirling Throw, but the critical failure clause destroyed the feat.

Let's hope that finisher removed the precision trait from the damage

Lots of comments on the feat, but isn't the bigger news here that Swashies now get panache on a failed check too?

I actually find it a bit weird that the Twirling Throw text doesn't say "thrown weapon Strike" - that feels like a minor error compared to how things are usually written.

But I'm a big fan of the panache changes with Bravado!

The weapon returns to your hand after the attack unless you critically failed on the attack roll.

Won't this risks a bad interaction with Returning runes?

More importantly, a returning rune costs an important property rune slot.

Just attach a retrieval prism to your weapon if you're worried about critfails.

Excited to see the keywording of Dirty Trick. Maybe that will be the Rascal's panache action?

I don't really like the idea of (gain-panache, finisher) being even better than it was before (compared to the idea of saving panache and just making strikes with a mild bonus damage), but I hope they have accounted for it.

I guess the Crit Fail effect is there so the feat doesn't absolutely overshadow returning runes.

I think it's an alright feat and the crit fail is a reasonable drawback for doubling your range increment. Sounds like a good option for when you don't want to invest one of your rune slots into the returning property. Thrown weapons are fairly cheap and you can put all your runes on a Thrower's Bandolier.

But more importantly, gaining panache with a failure plus the new feats to gain it make it sounds like Swashbuckler will end in a good spot.

Nice try with Twirling Throw, but the critical failure clause destroyed the feat.

Let's hope that finisher removed the precision trait from the damage

It really doesn't destroy the feat, not only do you have assorted reroll mechanics like hero points to prevent it (which also applies to the attack itself, for big finisher damage), and need to crit fail in the first place, you could easily have a back-up weapon and grab your other weapon later. This feat is excellent for a mixed ranged/melee swash.

The new Bravado trait is exactly what my Swash players were looking for before. I'm glad that you still get a little something on a failure now! Should be an amazing change for the class overall.

Temporary panache even on a failure may be what absolutely unchains my swashbuckler!

Wait what is Dirty Trick?

I wish we got an example of an activity with the bravado trait as well

We got a clue. Any skill action that used to generate panache due to your style will probably just have the bravado trait moving forward. And. They cleaned up the language for immunity, meaning even if you succeed the check against an ordinarily immune creature, you still get your chip!

That simple, low word count fix addresses a disproportionately large set of concerns, and leverages the “trait system” for a massive functionality errata!

Squiggit wrote:

Almost complete replacing the need for a returning rune but adding in a small chance to lose your weapon on any given attack feels like it could be very frustrating in actual play in non-ABP Games.

Honestly, I feel the opposite. A returning rune is 55 gold, and that's an entire class feat. Sure, this works for all thrown weapons and ignores some range penalties for weapons with very short range increments, but there's also the thrower's bandolier that can gather your stuff back up, and can have a returning rune put on it. So for 115 gold, you have this feat minus the range increment caveats.

Well also remember that feat is a finisher so who knows what that will mean.

Yeah. That should fix my pain points with playing Swashbuckler.

Short term Panache on a failed check brings it up to the level of Thaumaturge where they get enough benefit from failed rolls to still do their class things.

Being allowed to do the Bravado actions to gain panache even if the enemy doesn't care makes it so that particular enemies don't shut down the class either.

..and hey - it also adds the ability to throw and (almost always) return even to weapons that are only *temporarily* thrown weapons, or that for whatever other reason can't take returning runes. So... stealth patch to that one exemplar feat?

Dirty Trick? That was a fun maneuver in PF1e, even if it got a little insane with a lenient GM haha.

Good to hear that you'll get panache on a failure. Trying to get successes on guys of equal or higher level demolished a lot of enjoyment.

Just attach a retrieval prism to your weapon if you're worried about critfails.

Retrieval prism, plus you're playing as a swashbuckler. If you're not getting all the Hero Points, you're doing it wrong.

Squiggit wrote:

Almost complete replacing the need for a returning rune but adding in a small chance to lose your weapon on any given attack feels like it could be very frustrating in actual play in non-ABP Games.

Honestly, I feel the opposite. A returning rune is 55 gold, and that's an entire class feat. Sure, this works for all thrown weapons and ignores some range penalties for weapons with very short range increments, but there's also the thrower's bandolier that can gather your stuff back up, and can have a returning rune put on it. So for 115 gold, you have this feat minus the range increment caveats.

Returning runes and effects like this are pretty much pointless now that Thrower's bandolier exists.

Returning runes and effects like this are pretty much pointless now that Thrower's bandolier exists.

That kind of depends on what Flying Blade does. It's possible that this can be applied to weapons that would not normally fit into a thrower's bandolier.

Eh, what I was fearing would happen with the swash ended up happening. Assuming bravado isn't a thing that somehow is now in every single action that grants panache, it seems you are now forced into taking a feat with the bravado trait to gain panache more reliably, which seems like a weird thing to do when you are acknowledging the class has problems to generate panache as is (effectively forcing people into a feat tax).

I also feel bravado misses the forest for the trees in its implementation. We clearly acknowledge swashs have a problem to generate panache, so why instead of doing the simpler solution of giving it auto-scaling skills (at least Acrobatics) we put a patch that doesn't entirely solve the problem at hand? (I still need a feat for bravado and raise at least two skills to keep my chances to generate panache competent, which effectively leaves you with one "free" skill to raise up to legendary).

If bravado is an universal thing then this isn't so bad, its quite good actually, but I still think the class should have auto-scaling in one skill because even if you generate panache on failure you are still forced to invest into two skills which kinda forces most swashbucklers of a style to feel same-y if every single one of them has to raise Acrobatics + the style's skill. Honestly? The whole "you have to make a skill check to generate panache" could be dropped entirely but still have that you generate panache when you succeed at a skill check, but not limited to a single (or rather two) skill(s) per subclass. Each style would still be built around a particular skill, but you still would be able to generate panache when, for example, feinting as a battledancer, demoralizing as a wit, or using Bon Mot as a fencer, just to name a few.

Returning runes and effects like this are pretty much pointless now that Thrower's bandolier exists.

I think Twirling Throw might have been written with the Thrower's Bandolier in mind, actually. Having the weapon automatically return to you barring a critical failure extends "how many things can you throw before you have to spend 2 actions summoning them back". Like sure you can hold 20 throwing knives in the thing, but it's not inconceivable that you will have to call them back during a particularly long combat.

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Nice try with Twirling Throw, but the critical failure clause destroyed the feat.

Let's hope that finisher removed the precision trait from the damage

It really doesn't destroy the feat, not only do you have assorted reroll mechanics like hero points to prevent it (which also applies to the attack itself, for big finisher damage), and need to crit fail in the first place, you could easily have a back-up weapon and grab your other weapon later. This feat is excellent for a mixed ranged/melee swash.

Crit failing an attack roll isn't that hard, especially against severe/extreme threat enemies, and even more so if its not your first attack this turn.

So this is setup such that you want it to be your first attack after you get panache and you also have a weapon to throw that you'll be okay with losing. This seems like if you take it you're also going to need a throwers bandolier so that you aren't throwing your runes away and having them clang on the floor across the room. In that specific setup it seems pretty good, but you're building around this feat at that point.

I feel the fail outcome on Bravado feats is an unnecessary complication and tracking.

- Means tracking what gave you Panache and when to little benefit
- Most Swashbucklers aren't going to want to hold off on Finishers more than a round so why bother with the extra tracking? What does it add?

I would rather see ways of expanding weapons that can be used with Panache, I feel Swashbuckler could have made a great anime style samurai with light armour and flashy combat but it is unusable with so many weapons. I would rather it got the ruffian rogue treatment.

Lots of comments on the feat, but isn't the bigger news here that Swashies now get panache on a failed check too?

Only with Bravado actions. So if you're fighting a severe/extreme boss type encounter, you're probably going to wind up spamming those as much as you can instead of using your normal Panache actions.

The-Magic-Sword wrote:

Samir Sardinha wrote:

Nice try with Twirling Throw, but the critical failure clause destroyed the feat.

Let's hope that finisher removed the precision trait from the damage

It really doesn't destroy the feat, not only do you have assorted reroll mechanics like hero points to prevent it (which also applies to the attack itself, for big finisher damage), and need to crit fail in the first place, you could easily have a back-up weapon and grab your other weapon later. This feat is excellent for a mixed ranged/melee swash.

Crit failing an attack roll isn't that hard, especially against severe/extreme threat enemies, and even more so if its not your first attack this turn.

So this is setup such that you want it to be your first attack after you get panache and you also have a weapon to throw that you'll be okay with losing. This seems like if you take it you're also going to need a throwers bandolier so that you aren't throwing your runes away and having them clang on the floor across the room. In that specific setup it seems pretty good, but you're building around this feat at that point.

I mean it's the second feat in a chain. Of course your building around it....

Quote:

The weapon returns to your hand after the attack unless you critically failed on the attack roll.

Won't this risks a bad interaction with Returning runes?

I believe there are a few thrown weapons capable of making ranged trip attacks too. That could be a cool and thematic use of the ability.

I feel the fail outcome on Bravado feats is an unnecessary complication and tracking.

- Means tracking what gave you Panache and when to little benefit
- Most Swashbucklers aren't going to want to hold off on Finishers more than a round so why bother with the extra tracking? What does it add?

I would rather see ways of expanding weapons that can be used with Panache, I feel Swashbuckler could have made a great anime style samurai with light armour and flashy combat but it is unusable with so many weapons. I would rather it got the ruffian rogue treatment.

Here's hoping that the revised class has feats that support maintaining Panache instead of spending it as soon as possible. I think such a thing could expand the class quite a lot.

I love the Bravado trait. Granting a benefit even on a failure will smooth over so many issues, and make skills feel less mandatory, but still important.

Eh, what I was fearing would happen with the swash ended up happening. Assuming bravado isn't a thing that somehow is now in every single action that grants panache, it seems you are now forced into taking a feat with the bravado trait to gain panache more reliably, which seems like a weird thing to do when you are acknowledging the class has problems to generate panache as is (effectively forcing people into a feat tax).

Given that "many of your swashbuckler styles might state that certain actions gain the bravado trait.", I'd guess that all the actions that give panache for current Styles will gain the Bravado trait,because it would be weird if only some did when they're all equal currently, and that the rascal will have an action called Dirty Trick that has the Bravado trait.

That'd leave tumble through (and improvised panache actions via DM discretion) as the weak points that don't give Panache when you fail.

exequiel759 wrote:

Eh, what I was fearing would happen with the swash ended up happening. Assuming bravado isn't a thing that somehow is now in every single action that grants panache, it seems you are now forced into taking a feat with the bravado trait to gain panache more reliably, which seems like a weird thing to do when you are acknowledging the class has problems to generate panache as is (effectively forcing people into a feat tax).

Given that "many of your swashbuckler styles might state that certain actions gain the bravado trait.", I'd guess that all the actions that give panache for current Styles will gain the Bravado trait,because it would be weird if only some did when they're all equal currently, and that the rascal will have an action called Dirty Trick that has the Bravado trait.

That'd leave tumble through (and improvised panache actions via DM discretion) as the weak points that don't give Panache when you fail.

Fair point, though what I said in the third paragraph of my original comment still stands.

exequiel759 wrote:

Eh, what I was fearing would happen with the swash ended up happening. Assuming bravado isn't a thing that somehow is now in every single action that grants panache, it seems you are now forced into taking a feat with the bravado trait to gain panache more reliably, which seems like a weird thing to do when you are acknowledging the class has problems to generate panache as is (effectively forcing people into a feat tax).

Given that "many of your swashbuckler styles might state that certain actions gain the bravado trait.", I'd guess that all the actions that give panache for current Styles will gain the Bravado trait,because it would be weird if only some did when they're all equal currently, and that the rascal will have an action called Dirty Trick that has the Bravado trait.

That'd leave tumble through (and improvised panache actions via DM discretion) as the weak points that don't give Panache when you fail.

What makes you think Swashbucklers won't get the Bravado trait to Tumble Through?

That kind of seems to be the point of the Bravado trait. So they don't have to keep explaining it.

The easier panache generation is a step in the right direction. We haven't seen the entire swashbuckler to know if they gave it auto-advancement in acrobatics or their key skill. This is a taste of the class to at least let us know they are fixing the panache feature.

Dirty Trick? Oh now I wonder if that action will make a return.

The easier panache generation is a step in the right direction. We haven't seen the entire swashbuckler to know if they gave it auto-advancement in acrobatics or their key skill. This is a taste of the class to at least let us know they are fixing the panache feature.

I'm pretty sure someone at Paizo already confirmed swashs aren't getting auto-scaling in any skills in PC2. I don't remember who said it, but I remember something along the lines of them thinking "it wasn't necesary due to the new changes", which could be true once we see the full class.

Paizo is really avoiding that alchemist preview!

Great that they get panache on a failure. Great improvement.

Twirling Throw is one of those 'okay at first glance' feats but I struggle to understand who wants this:

- A Thrower's Bandolier requires quickdraw to make it work/functional. So this becomes a 2 action activity to draw + strike for a once per turn finisher (not ideal).

- Thrown weapon switch hitters are limited to finesse/agile thrown weapons with flying blade (i.e., small list of 1d4/1d6 weapons and the Tamchal Chakram is still the best here). But there will be turns you don't want to use a finisher, so you can't exist without a returning rune unless you plan on only very rarely throwing your weapon. But now you've invested 2 whole feats into something you don't plan on doing?

- The recovery trait on things like a boomerang really challenge the need for a crit fail 'lose your weapon' effect since better already exists on baseline martial thrown weapons. Turns where you Strike + Finisher will make you much more likely to crit fail and trigger that effect.

- The main benefit is the range extension (so you could kite more effectively). Getting range is not easily done in PF2e, but the weapons you're limited to keeps this feature to being 30 (From a 10ft range weapon) to 60ft (from a 20ft item). So it is basically a feat to turn a weapon that might have some better traits into a weird boomerang.

So if I'm going to steelman this feat what we're talking about is a thrower's bandolier user that has shurikens to avoid the quickdraw issue that has some back-up melee finesse thrown weapons (so they go into the bandolier) but for which you don't really intend to throw (i.e., quickdraw in melee and then throw for a second attack or next turn). Its the only user type that wouldn't care if their weapon was lost on the crit fail effect and who doesn't need a returning rune on turns you want to throw but not use a finisher. Its definitely niche, but it would have been nice if they just 'let it work' with quickdraw via a "Special:xxxxxx" set of language rider effects so you aren't stuck subbing in the 'shuriken' aesthetic into your 'swashbuckler'

What makes you think Swashbucklers won't get the Bravado trait to Tumble Through?

That kind of seems to be the point of the Bravado trait. So they don't have to keep explaining it.

If Tumble Through and your style specific Panache generators all get the Bravado trait, what's the point of the Bravado trait? At that point they could just redefine Panache to say "you get it on a failure" and not bother with another trait at all.

Bravado will greatly simplify playing a swashbuckler in PbP

Kind of unfortunate in that it seems like a Twirling Throw wouldn't allow a Panached up Swashbuckler to add their precise strike damage past the first range increment, a la the restrictions on Flying Blade.

On the other hand, Twirling Throw wasn't stated to have the same kinds of weapon trait-based restrictions as Flying Blade, so they could chuck any kind of throw weapon a greater distance without penalty.

Rascal and Dirty Trick should cover character ideas for a pocket sand wielding coward

Super Zero wrote:

What makes you think Swashbucklers won't get the Bravado trait to Tumble Through?

That kind of seems to be the point of the Bravado trait. So they don't have to keep explaining it.

If Tumble Through and your style specific Panache generators all get the Bravado trait, what's the point of the Bravado trait? At that point they could just redefine Panache to say "you get it on a failure" and not bother with another trait at all.

Because it allows them to place that definition in one spot and then use it to refer to other things more easily in future, I'd imagine. It's also possible that Tumble and other actions don't always have the Bravado trait, but other feats or actions you pick up can grant them Bravado. It could also be future proofing.

Angry dwarf: PAY FOR THE REPAIRS I MADE TO YOUR SHIELD!!!
Jirelle: NEVEEER!!!

How dare you do the litter box.

Eh, what I was fearing would happen with the swash ended up happening. Assuming bravado isn't a thing that somehow is now in every single action that grants panache, it seems you are now forced into taking a feat with the bravado trait to gain panache more reliably, which seems like a weird thing to do when you are acknowledging the class has problems to generate panache as is (effectively forcing people into a feat tax).

The text says actions not feats. It's unclear how that's going to be implemented. It could be exactly as you fear, a "take this feat, and it makes the x action a bravado action" thing. But it could be a subclass feature. Or a class feature. Or they could go with a "feat and..." build. As in, a bunch of the current swashbuckler feats give you their current Swashie benefit but now also add bravado to an action. We'll have to see.

We clearly acknowledge swashs have a problem to generate panache, so why instead of doing the simpler solution of giving it auto-scaling skills (at least Acrobatics) we put a patch that doesn't entirely solve the problem at hand?

I'm liking this better. Auto-scaling skills don't guarantee panache, they just make skill proficiency choices associated with leveling up less class-locked. Which is not a bad thing - I fully agree with your post on that point - but it does nothing to solve the "you're up against a L+3 Boss, you're never going to make that performance roll" problem. Granting temporary panache on a fail directly solves the main problem that the class had.

Honestly? The whole "you have to make a skill check to generate panache" could be dropped entirely but still have that you generate panache when you succeed at a skill check, but not limited to a single (or rather two) skill(s) per subclass.

I think the Bravado thing is removing the limitation of 1-2 skills per subclass, just as you're requesting.

But I somewhat disagree about removing the check entirely. Erroll Flynn should not gain panache by standing around doing nothing. "I spend two seconds standing still, powering up" just isn't this archetype. He's gotta swing from the chandelier to get it, baby. Giving temp panache on a fail is a nice compromise. You still have to do action-hero* things to get your action-hero* bonus, but you aren't so subject to the whim of the dice any more.

*Or now for the Rascal, action-villain things. Twirl that 'stache!

But I somewhat disagree about removing the check entirely. Erroll Flynn should not gain panache by standing around doing nothing. "I spend two seconds standing still, powering up" just isn't this archetype. He's gotta swing from the chandelier to get it, baby. Giving temp panache on a fail is a nice compromise. You still have to do action-hero* things to get your action-hero* bonus, but you aren't so subject to the whim of the dice any more.

I kinda moved away from my initial stance after reading other replies, but I want to point out something about this reply; I wasn't meaning to have swashs to gain panache for free, I was saying that swashs should recharge panache with any skill actions regadless of your subclass, though subclass would still specialize into a particular skill (optimally, also giving you auto-scaling in that skill). Temp panache from bravado is effectively the same as full bravado because the swash playstyle encourages you to spend it ASAP, so in practice bravado effectively gives panache on failure. After thinking it for a while I think bravado kinda lessens the need for an auto-scaling skill since (assuming Tumble Through has bravado) you'll likely manage to get panache using Acrobatics just fine if you can't use your style's skill for whatever reason, though even then I think an auto-scaling skill is kind of needed for the class because the biggest problem the swashbuckler has is that I can play a rogue and both flavor and mechanical wise I'm playing nearly the same character, with the difference that a rogue has twice the amount of trained skills, twice the amount of skill feats, and twice the amount of skill increases. Swashs have good feats, yes, but most of those can be easily poached with just a few feats.

Investigator is in a similar spot to the swashbuckler, though investigator also suffers from the "rogue, but worse" syndrome but in a more literal way in that case (since the class is way more similar in its chassis), but at least the investigator has its own share of skills and skill feats.

A thaumaturge does get to exploit a weakness on a failure, which uses an auto-scaling skill that's one of the best features in the game. Even with bravado, a swashbuckler should have an auto-scaling skill too because it makes sense from a mechanical and design perspective IMO.

Bravado seems pretty neat; not sure I like it over juat changing panache, but I'd have to see what got it before I draw too many opinions one way or the other.

The feat seems very... okay. I feel like the real benefit is ignoring the range increments for 2nd and 3rd. If I'm playing a flying blade, I feel like I'm either packing Quick Draw and a Thrower's Bandolier or just etching a returning rune onto my weapon.

Really excited to see Dirty Trick capitalized; I made an NPC kraken caller druid who was an absolute menace to the PCs, and her specialty was Dirty Tricks. The party HATED seeing her, but also thought she was really cool. I'm guessing its a swashbuckler feat that applies debuffs rather than returning as a "combat maneuver", but is nevertheless exciting

I'm looking forward to this for my swashbuckler. I think, "You always get Panache on a fail," is better than having scaling skills, personally. It means that when I roll my best skill and do poorly, I still get something. Having a higher bonus isn't going to help me when the die roll is low.

I'm looking forward to this for my swashbuckler. I think, "You always get Panache on a fail," is better than having scaling skills, personally. It means that when I roll my best skill and do poorly, I still get something. Having a higher bonus isn't going to help me when the die roll is low.

A crit fail doesn’t grant Panache (if I understand it correctly), so you still need a decent bonus in the associated skill. Having scaling skills was more about freeing up the limited skill increases a Swashbuckler does have to be used on different things, instead of always boosting Acrobatics (or taking the Acrobat dedication).