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Ectar's page
Organized Play Member. 1,226 posts. 2 reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 5 Organized Play characters.
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Xenocrat wrote: The GM Core says tactical rules will be in the forthcoming Tech Core. Either:
1. There will soon be a quick, perhaps abbreviated and/or poorly run playtest.
2. They lied/changed their mind about the playtest and there won't be one and GM Core is telling the truth.
3. GM Core is mistaken and they decided to yank out a huge chunk of Tech Core pages previously plannged for tactical starships and replace them with something else after GM Core was sent to the printer.
I'm betting on no playtest. Having one always seemed like a bad idea: it's inevitably going to make a lot of people mad at the design they chose and they'll have limited time and flexibility to respond to any feedback, so better just to not scare off the preorders.
Huh. Well ain't that something? I hadn't realized GMC made a promise like that.
Well, I'm gonna continue not buying SF2 books until the tactical rules are released, and I like them.
Reading through this AP with the desire to run it in the future.
It feels like Hao Jin's memories of Syndara are handled pretty inconsistently?
In chapter 1, the name Syndara means nothing to her in one spot, while being described as a vague collaborator in another.
But in Chapter 3 the block text seems to indicate not only that she remembers him, but also sussed out that he's behind things.
I haven't noticed anything indicating a change in her recollection, except maybe the music? But why would that matter?
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So, because I genuinely cannot tell:
Was there something said indicating particular aliens not making the jump to 2E, or was this thread pure speculation?
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keftiu wrote: Oh dear: the mods hid OP, which now makes *me* look like the OP. Yup. Confused the heck out of me for a minute or so there.
Kinda weird, ngl. Almost rather the whole thread were nuked.
Justnobodyfqwl wrote: You listed pretty much entirely stuff that we wouldn't know. Point taken on the list of questions I chose.
But what DO we know?
I never got a playtest adventure so I don't know if there's anything there. The Free RPG day product was pretty scant, but it has a ship with some details to work with.
I'll take any info about any ships in 2E.
I know ship v ship combat isn't released yet, with Cinematic ship combat announced for GM Core and Tactical ship combat as of yet unannounced AFAIK.
But still, what info is out there regarding ships?
How fast are they? How many people can they hold? What are their names? Armaments?
Literally anything and everything about ships in 2E.
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Teridax wrote: Ectar wrote: Accuracy buff? Ancestral Memories. Oooookay. Imperial, not Arcane.
Poor poor Arcane Draconic bloodline.
Teridax wrote:
The Sorcerer got massively buffed for blasting: getting a buffed version of Dangerous Sorcery for free in addition to better starting focus spells, including the arcane Sorcerer's accuracy buff, has effectively given the class the tools to blast to maximum effect without needing to pick specific build options to get started.
Accuracy buff?
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Sir Belmont the Valiant, II wrote: So to get value out of a summoned creature... you buy two Summon X scrolls when you make a new level? Then you use them in a moderate to severe fight to conserve your resources for the Boss Fight.
They come out of your consumables budget & you only get a few as you want to use them before you/your enemies level up and leave them in the dust.
That's not exactly an insignificant investment.
Going by table 10-9, an individual pc will acquire ~250gp in liquid currency between levels 8 and 9.
So upon reaching level 9, you're spending more than the liquid gold you're like to have received to buy two scrolls of 5th level summoning of your choosing (300gp).
Christopher#2411504 wrote: Soon(TM) Ah, a fellow enjoyer of Blizzard's old communication style.
Okay.
Fingers crossed the SF2 forum update is independent from the much-hyped wider website overhaul. I feel like that thing has been coming soon:tm: for ages.
There still isn't a Starfinder 2E secon to the forums.
I realized this while trying to find information about the Solarion's Solar Weapon and got almost all first editing stuff.
The Core classes still have their playtest forums up near the top of the page, even though they're released.
It's just kind of a mess to find threads regarding 2E non-playtest material right now.
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Bluemagetim wrote: Back in the day a friend cast fireball at enemies that boarded our ship while at sea....
You can guess what happened to the ship.
The sails and ropes caught fire?
It's not that easy to catch wood on fire with instantaneous heat like a fireball.
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steelhead wrote: OrochiFuror wrote: All the powerful reality and magic warping spells got turned into rituals, so what does being an arcane spell at its core mean anymore?
Might be wishful thinking but if we get another shot at Secrets of magic, since it can't be remastered and needs to be redone almost entirely, would be nice to get another deluge of spells and hope to balance out the number of uniques a bit. Just to really hone in on the flavors of each tradition. It sounds like Rival Academies did not scratch that itch? If that’s the case, did that most recent arcane-focused book do anything to address the above concerns? I’ve been debating getting it, but did not want to do so unless it really turned the wizard up to 11. The most worthwhile thing Wizards got in RA was removed in errata (or was clarified to never have been intended to work as written)
So Battlecry! is out now.
Lightly perusing the Archives, I didn't notice a new reason for the Mobility/Offensive tactic split.
There's a description of each subset contained in the Tactics section, but the distinction feels unnecessary.
In most groups Gather To Me! is more impactful in combat than Reload! or Shields Up!, but whatever. This is just a mild complaint thread now.
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Shifter!
Aristophanes wrote: alsyr wrote: I hope so! Guardian and Commander turned out great and Runesmith and Necromancer are both promising, so there is clearly still design space and thematic niches left for them to explore. I personally would love to see a Shifter class as I don’t think we quite have anything that covers that fantasy. I'm sorry. you need to be more specific.
What doesn't the Wildshape Druid have to cover that fantasy. The Druid character from the D&D movie seemed to play far closer to a PF1 shifter than any typical D&D or PF2 class.
I don't think 2E even has a chainsaw yet.
Our Barbarian getting one in Reign of Winter was one of the hypest moments of that campaign.
To say nothing of the possibility of laser scalpels or monomolecular blades and such in Numeria.
There's a huge gap in potential story telling in 2E, given Numeria exists and hasn't been utilized yet.

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moosher12 wrote: Yes please, I'll reiterate my want for a technology guide.
Honestly, I want more Stasian technology too.
For Stasian Technology, hear me out. I wanna see more Earth products. Not just Russian ones with the return of the Russian guns, but I wanna see if a few American and European guns can have been smuggled out of Irrisin, as well as other more mundane appliances, tools, and gadgets of the 1930s that are too modern for base Pathfinder, but too archaic for Starfinder.
See, this I'd be jazzed for. Actual 1930s-1940s technology.
The Stasian Technology I find disagreeable is the stuff that still defies known laws of physics, but does so in a purportedly non-magical way, via the inclusion of "Stasian Coils".
These things seem to generate electrical power from nowhere, non-magically.
Take the Electrocable from Guns and Gears. It reads like a handheld plasma cutter of light Bulk with no external power source and is non-magical.
That kind of take on Stasian Technology gives me exactly the same bad vibes as "Borg Technology" did in later seasons of Star Trek Voyager.
I would love more Numerian content. Futuristic science fiction content in our fantasy setting? Yes please.
I worry a little bit that a new Technology Guide would also have an abundance of Stasian Technology, of which I'm really not a fan.
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Justnobodyfqwl wrote: Ok, ok, I'll bite: I think I'm literally the only person on this forum who has never heard of Warframe until last week. I watched the Starfriends play it, and I couldn't tell if it was an MMO or Mario Teaches Typing.
What's Warframe? What makes it so perfect for SF2e? I just watched a guy with spider arms jump a lot and I feel like I know even less than I thought.
I think I've heard the name before. That's the extend of my Warfrane knowledge.
Finoan wrote: Oh look. We are enforcing lore as though it is mechanics rules again. That sounds dangerously close to running contrary to your perspective in The Myth of Flavor Text thread.
You wrote: Pathfinder2e doesn't have non-mechanical flavor text. It does have flavor text. But the flavor text in the PF2 rules is important. It does help to give a framework of how to interpret the rest of the mechanical rules.
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If we're justifying reasons, I'd go the Tsukumogami route: you have something akin to a Kami spirit inhabiting your different ikons, instead of shifting around your godly essence.

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Driftbourne wrote: I don't see the FOMO, I have a high will save, or I'm blind, to me, predatory marketing is MTG Secret Layers. If reward points expire with a year's notice causes FOMO, then holiday sales must be the work of pure evil. For me, in gaming, FOMO is having to buy something because you'll never get a chance to get it again, or be forced to pay collector prices for it. If Paizo had classes that were only available in deluxe editions of books for a limited amount of time, I'd be the first to grab my pitchfork. It sounds to me like you DO get it.
Secret Lairs are definitely predatory. Artificial scarcity and a horrendous purchasing policy.
Holiday sales ARE employing the same techniques. Watch a TV commercial for one and count how many times they remind you that it's a limited time offer. They want to create that feeling that you'll be missing out if you don't buy now.
This reward program isn't as bad as those in its manipulation. It's more boring and ordinary.
But reread the description for Legendary Loot and tell me that's not designed to induce fomo.

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Driftbourne wrote: Ectar wrote: Is it the worst system? No.
Do most people stand to save anything? No, I don't think so, not after the first year. Only people who were already spending a ton of money or writing a ton of reviews stand to benefit, the average customer will see no benefit. And that's probably my biggest issue.
At least if the gold didn't expire, the average consumer could get a reward once every few years.
If the gold system was already in place when I preordered just 3 things for SF2e, I would have been able to get the first 2 SF2e scenarios free, which sounds like a saving to me, since all I play is Starfinder Society, it's not something Paizo is tricking me into buying.
Paizo is a business I expect them to want to make a profit; doing so keeps the game alive, which makes me happy. What I don't think Paizo is doing is trying to bleed their customers dry like WotC or Games Workshop.
I often didn't have subscriptions, often I bought books locally so I could support my local game store, and I then also bought the PDFs from Paizo, now both my local store and Paizo have a rewards system I benefit from.
I agree that it would be nice if rewards didn't expire.
Regrettably, I misread the original post and the $ to gold rate by a factor of 10, but was too late up update my post.
The system is much better than I original asserted.
But responding now to this post:
That's great! The system is pure upside for you, since you would be saving on things you were 100% going to buy anyway.
Bleed their customers dry? No. This could be way more predatory.
Use marketing tricks and fomo to try and get people to buy more than they otherwise would have? Definitely.
I want for Paizo what I want for all companies: financial success based purely on the strength of the products they're producing.

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skizzerz wrote: Ectar wrote: Plus, the it looks like the amount you'll save is going to be miniscule.
Looking at next year, when all the free sign up and social following free gold is gone, to get the $5 off Reward (the lowest tier, non-society reward) costs 75 gold. Supposing your birthday has already passed (Happy Birthday!), it will cost you $500 to accumulate the remaining 50 gold, netting you less than a 1% total discount, because you'll still need to buy another thing before that discount goes through.
1 gold per dollar spent, so $50 instead of $500 to finish off that $5 off coupon. Math works out a bit better in that case.
For me if I apply the rewards exclusively to subscription payments and because I don’t care about getting every society scenario, I’d save an additional ~10% on top of the existing subscription discounts. This replaces a benefit I only rarely use (because I don’t play society and only use and heavily reflavor those scenarios in my home campaign when I need a side quest or something) with something that gives me a decent extra benefit. Thank you! I edited portions of my post to reflect my rather large mistake. It's a lot better than I had thought, though I still have gripes.
At least, I thought I did? I must have submitted past the edit window because I struck out a bunch of things and added new stuff to account for my error. >_<

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Driftbourne wrote: nephandys wrote: Wow this is worse all around. I remember when I said:
nephandys wrote: Is anyone else getting a bad feeling about the upcoming changes to the loyalty program? The way it’s been described so far - lots of vague “coming soon” language and talk of a “better experience” - just screams corpo-speak for we’re cutting benefits, but trying to make it sound like a good thing.
Let’s be honest: when companies say they’re “enhancing” or “evolving” a program to “better serve us,” it usually translates to more restrictions, fewer rewards, or a new tier system that’s harder to climb. They frame it as a win for the customer, but it almost always serves their bottom line, not ours.
Until they drop actual details, there’s no way to know for sure, but the language so far feels like a red flag. If the changes were genuinely beneficial, they probably wouldn’t be so cagey or need to spin it this hard. They'd be shouting them from the rooftops instead of deferring them for a future blog.
Would love to be wrong on this, but right now it feels like we’re being softened up for a downgrade. Just goes to show no matter the image or sense of community Paizo projects, it’s all about extracting as much money as possible.
If Paizo wanted to extract as much money as possible, why have any rewards system at all, be it subscriptions or gold, and the Archive of Nethis would have to go, or have a subscription fee.
Encouraging social media helps grow the game, not just to make $ for Paizo. Reviews help people decide what to buy and also provide feedback to let Paizo know how they are doing. I wouldn't join X or Facebook for any amount of money, but Paizo only having 30.9K subscribers on YouTube, Twitch has even fewer subscribers, is pretty sad, because Paizo Live is the best way to keep up on game news. It took me 3 years to find a live local Starfinder game, so I certainly support anything that helps promote the game.
It's certainly a big change. I never benefited much from... Reward programs ARE designed to extract money. They encourage you to shop, in this case, from Paizo directly and not your LGS. They create an incentive for you to make purchases you wouldn't have otherwise, ie: This gold is about to expire, so I should buy something with my 10% coupon before I lose it. Or even just lowering the financial barrier making it more likely for a consumer to go through with a purchase because of a discount.
Reward programs only ever save you money if it was something you were 100% going to buy anyway. As soon as you buy anything because of a discount, the program has worked in their favor. And these programs do that regularly.
The archives can't go, for at least two reasons.
One: because you can't copyright game rules and mechanics; Paizo would have a lot of trouble, legally, trying to get it taken down.
Two: it would be a PR nightmare. After Paizo positioned themselves as the consumers' advocate ttrpg companyfollowing the OGL debacle, the community Backlash would be incomprehensibly large. I actually think removing the archives would end Paizo as their public image would be totally destroyed. Removing AoN is not in their best interest.
Plus, the it looks like the amount you'll save is going to be miniscule.
Looking at next year, when all the free sign up and social following free gold is gone, to get the $5 off Reward (the lowest tier, non-society reward) costs 75 gold. Supposing your birthday has already passed (Happy Birthday!), it will cost you $500 to accumulate the remaining 50 gold, netting you less than a 1% total discount, because you'll still need to buy another thing before that discount goes through.
"You can earn additional gold by writing reviews" I hear you saying.
Yeah, reviews of things you already had to purchase, so Paizo already recouped the cost of doing business there. But you're also helping them by leaving a review. James Jacobs frequently mentions how important reviews are for the success of products, APs, especially.
Now they're paying you for reviews. Not directly, of course; gold has no monetary value. But you can use it for money discounts, so we'll go with it.
5 gold is 1/15 of the way to a $5 Reward. Which means effectively, Paizo are paying you $0.33 per review, which is an unbelievably good deal for them.
Is it the worst system? No.
Do most people stand to save anything? No, I don't think so, not after the first year. Only people who were already spending a ton of money or writing a ton of reviews stand to benefit, the average customer will see no benefit. And that's probably my biggest issue.
At least if the gold didn't expire, the average consumer could get a reward once every few years.
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Broadly speaking, conditions which apply subordinate conditions enumerate them in their descriptions.
Unconscious, in part wrote: You can't act. You take a –4 status penalty to AC, Perception, and Reflex saves, and you have the blinded and off-guard conditions. When you gain this condition, you fall prone and drop items you're holding unless the effect states otherwise or the GM determines you're positioned so you wouldn't. Blinded, off-guard, & prone are called out specifically.
Stunned, in part wrote: You can't act. No listing of subordinate conditions. Therefore you aren't affected by any, because the condition doesn't say that you are.
I'm guessing you can only use one gold-based reward per purchase?
That would be expected, but being able to redeem, for example, multiple $10 rewards in one purchase would improve my disposition towards the system a fair amount.
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Ooooh, I hate so much of this.
Announcing items exclusive to higher tiers to drive up fomo-based anxiety.
Teasing that some special rewards will require gold (along with money) to purchase encourages hoarding gold, which runs opposed to the stated value proposition of the system of saving the consumer money by buying direct and spending that gold.
That same gold expiring a year after creation so mild to moderate consumers don't actually benefit from the new system at all.
Encouraging cutting the LGS out of the supply chain.
Making reward redemption manual instead of automatic, making it more likely that gold expires so the actual value is the rewards received are less, even if the theoretical value is higher.
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Tridus wrote: I'd love to see a shifter class archetype that buffs up the forms and reduces spellcasting so that kind of build feels better, since it's not really a power problem (Druid is pretty good), just that specific fantasy isn't well-served right now. I am once again asking for Paizo to add Shifter to 2E. It seems like such a slam dunk to me.
The underlying math system seems like it will work better for the shifter than first edition's. It's a mechanical and narrative niche that is unfulfilled and desired.
I don't much care if it's a standalone class or some class archetype, but make it real, please.
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I refuse to live in a world where "Now's your chance! You're a Firebrand, and the world must know it." is considered rules text.

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Squiggit wrote: I think my main gripe comes down to the recall knowledge/target weakness loop.
Like on paper the idea of being rewarded for targeting the right save feels good and makes players feel smart, especially when the gap is so huge. Targeting a weak save can be a free, untyped +1 or 2 or 3 or 4, which is wild.
But not everyone can properly engage with this minigame.
I find this especially true in groups that aren't especially consistent. I've been in plenty of PFS games (in 1e) where nobody had knowledge skills.
This feels less common to me now, partially because my groups are more consistent, partially because I tend to focus know the RK skills, and partially because the RK skills are split across Int and Wis which makes it seem more likely that someone covers at least half.
But sometimes our Cleric or Ranger can't make it, and we feel the missing RK on those sessions, even if we still have 4 or 5 people.
However, if your group ends up with a CHA caster as your only finger wiggler, it's pretty realistic that nobody adequately covers RK. So how are you ever supposed to engage with targeting the correct save? Guess? Metagame?
Spellcasting, imo, is too dependent on successful RK without otherwise ensuring that all spellcasting characters are engaging with that system in some way. Besides the ancillary expectation (which I think is mostly only known by the forum and reddit dwellers) that spellcasters are intended by the devs to be using RK to his the requisite saves.
steelhead wrote: NorrKnekten wrote: I've seen people describe foiling breathsense by holding their breath, Nice. That would be Sneak with a Constitution modifier.
Quote: bloodsense as rubbing metallic powder onto themselves, The same was also done with... uhmm... . "skinsense"... Hmmm, the only problem with these is anyone could rub on some powder. You don’t have to use Foil Senses to do that. That's the thing: anyone can do it!
If you know you're going to try and sneak past something with bloodsense, you can already take special precautions to avoid that sense. Probably work with your GM to determine the actual method of avoidance.
Foil Senses means the game will now assume you're always doing that vs all special senses.
Edit: see this sidebar
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keftiu wrote: Daggerheart is a lighter game than D&D 5e, while PF2 is a meatier one. I think more groups are looking for the former than the latter these days. Lighter than 5e? Gross.
5e doesn't even have sufficient rules to cover it's own common gameplay situations.
Ravingdork wrote: A fighter trains hard with armor and weapons to become a master. A wizard studies diligently to uncover deeper mysteries of the universe. A cleric prays and strives to prove to their deity that they are worthy of greater power and all the responsibility that comes with it. Rogues continually exploit their situation to get the upper hand ever reaching for the next big score, easy mark, or soft target. And then there's the sorcerer...doing nothing.
Everyone has a means of increasing their powers and abilities. But what does a sorcerer do to increase their innate powers? Increase their blood? Simply grow older? Relieve wisdom from a potential-unlocking mentor? Put on a montage?
Do your sorcerers not receive regular blood transfusions from increasingly powerful and esoteric members of their bloodline?
Ah, or maybe they're taking the bloatmage route and increasing their own blood supply. That must be it.
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Moth Mariner wrote:
Apsu in Divine Mysteries still has a ton of Platinum Dragon stuff despite that being connected to the OGL Bahamut... Avatar Form grants platinum scales, his symbol is a platinum dragon, and he has a group of followers called the Platinum Band :'(
We'll see in October if the Draconic Codex addresses any of these.
In fact, I wouldn't be surpassed for that book to have some Apsu-related retcons, which make their way into Divine Mysteries errata.
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Remove the Death Trait from the kineticist Impulse "All Shall End In Flames".
If some part of the ability truly needs it, change the text to read "White-hot fire consumes everything in a cataclysmic sphere of death. The fire fills your choice of a 30-foot burst within 500 feet or a 30-foot emanation. This deals 13d6 fire damage with a basic Reflex save against your class DC. Any creature dropped to 0 HP by this fire dies, reduced to a pile of ash (this is a death effect)."
I don't know anyone taking this Impulse without a houserule, since every undead, construct, and plenty more monsters besides are immune to death effects.
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Not overly a fan of motivation baked into an entire ancestry, tbh. Would prefer a more self-motivated hook.
But I do like the portrayal of the gentle giant and I always liked the Guardian narratively.
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This makes me feel too old and out of touch for contemporary Pathfinder, and that makes me sad.
Individuality and identity just aren't a big focus in my life at this point, but is typically the focal point of many of these characters' stories.
They're well written and seem to resonate really strongly with the other folks in the comments. I just can't see almost anything of myself in them.

Claxon wrote: Balkoth wrote: The bad news: the DM isn't thrilled with the idea of Greater Oil of Weightlessness or a Dawnsilver Bastard Sword due to physics.
The good news: I didn't escape, despite trying repeatedly. The rogue who got swallowed round 2 never managed to escape. The cleric who got swallowed round 3 never managed to escape. The druid got the Worm to crit fail on a Cone of Cold and that was able to finish it off so everyone lived.
They're okay with wizards throwing magical fireballs but the magical oil that makes your weapon light bulk is a problem?
And a Dawnsilver bastard sword is literally allowed by the rules, and would be light bulk, and weirdly usable when swallowed whole. I get it. Bulk is supposed to count both as weight and general wieldability. Making a bastard sword lighter doesn't make it easier to swing it around in a tightly confined space. I'm thinking of that scene in Kill Bill Volume 2 where they're trying to use katanas inside a motor home. Didn't work so well.
To be clear, I'm not saying I'd disallow the aforementioned options.
But I get it.
Edit: I hate "wizards throwing fireballs" and "magic literally exists" being the comebacks for trying to apply any realism to Pathfinder.
Sure, we take it for granted that magic exists in the world, but it's not like we throw out all semblance of physics or Mechanics because of it. Especially in situations where magic isn't being employed.
Would an aluminum bastard sword be easier to use inside of an living sleeping bag of a monster than a steel one? As not a swordsman, I'd guess 'not really'.
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Karys wrote: Perhaps a companion themed martial akin to the Hunter from PF1, focusing on teamwork with their companion, with more companion customization and options built in would be an idea to work with. Like a more martial take to what summoner is. This is my #2 most desired class, and has been for some time. Hunter was my favorite 1E martial because of the interplay with the teamwork feats and companion. Super cool.
My wife played a Ranger with a bird and got really sad just how meaningless her AC-feat choices felt around level 10. It just couldn't meaningfully contribute to combat most of the time.
So there's a good little bit of teasing regarding untethering Geb from Mechitar, but then nothing comes of it?
As far as I've been able to tell, besides getting an additional 80XP (already a laughable reward in an AP that calls out leveling up milestones), the whole untethering thing never gets mentioned again?
It's supremely disappointing.
Bluemagetim wrote: Does runelord auto learn all spells from both curriculum and sin?
If so that already gives them more spells known than a normal wizard at the cost of not being able to cast non curriculum/sin spells against their anathema.
No. You acquire Curriculum and Sin spells as Spells Known in the same manner as a non-Runelord wizard.

Bluemagetim wrote: Ectar wrote: Bluemagetim wrote:
But if were talking about spells they never used finite resources to gain in the first place its not a penalty. Its more or less a class direction kind of like Occult casters have a different list to draw from than divine casters or primal casters.You wouldn't say those casters are penalized because one has this list of spells and the other has that list to choose from.
No reason to consider spells per day gains for the class as a tradeoff for the second of those situations. Its just a class buff from the normal wizard with a more focused direction that the player can choose from a number of runelord options. Of course an Occult caster isn't inherently penalized compared than an Arcane one. Now, if that Occult caster lost access to ~10% of their available spell list, THEN If considered them penalized. The occult list has some percentage less spells than the arcane and is just fine.
As long as there are sufficient spells to make the character that fits the theme that kind of runelord represents I wouldn't say its a veritcal penalty.
I would categorize it as a horizontal limitation though, and that can be meaningful even if I wouldnt consider a horizontal limitation like this equivalent to a vertical drop in resources. It is a limit on choice. I just wouldn't call it a reduction to the limited resources of the class. I agree that the limit posed is primarily a horizontal one. But by not being able to access all of the good spells, your cap in potential effectiveness is inherently lowered.
As a very simple example, if Fireball is the best possible spell for you to be able to cast in a given situation, not being able to prepare it gives you a limit on how effective you could be in that situation when compared to a character who does have access to Fireball.
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Bluemagetim wrote:
But if were talking about spells they never used finite resources to gain in the first place its not a penalty. Its more or less a class direction kind of like Occult casters have a different list to draw from than divine casters or primal casters.You wouldn't say those casters are penalized because one has this list of spells and the other has that list to choose from.
No reason to consider spells per day gains for the class as a tradeoff for the second of those situations. Its just a class buff from the normal wizard with a more focused direction that the player can choose from a number of runelord options.
Of course an Occult caster isn't inherently penalized compared than an Arcane one. Now, if that Occult caster lost access to ~10% of their available spell list, THEN If considered them penalized.
thenobledrake wrote:
In order for it to be an actual obstacle or inconvenience there'd have to be a pronounced weakness inherent to the scenario of "I couldn't choose that" that isn't just as present in the scenario of "I didn't choose that even though I could". And since there's no difference between "this character doesn't know electric arc or fireball" and "it would violate this character's anathema to cast electric arc or fireball" there is no actual inherent value in that anathema. Regular Wizard: Don't worry, party members. I didn't prepare Water Breathing [or other niche spell here] today, but we can rest up for the night and I'll prepare it tomorrow.
Could you imaging the inconvenience if the last group of bandits didn't have that scroll I could learn the spell from?
Runelord of Lust: I guess we're walking back to the nearest major city to go shopping.
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Bluemagetim wrote: Loss of flexibility is a meaningful limiter, but I wouldn't say it is ever equivalent to a vertical gain.
Is the opposite also true?
Does a significant increase in flexibility ever equate to a loss in vertical gain?
How many spell slots would you be willing to give up to acquire access to every spell of all 4 traditions?
If the answer is anything other than "I wouldn't ever give up any number of spell slots for access to that additional flexibility", then I think at some point there is an equivalency.

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thenobledrake wrote:
"Heavy anathema" is not actually a reason to alter the balance of things unless those anathema are actually difficult to avoid. In the case of runelord where the player can select their sin and then plan accordingly there are hardly even any downsides to the character and no chance of "oops, I wasn't supposed to do that, now I have to atone" coming up. So it's basically just "can I have a bonus to Athletics if I promise to never train myself in Thievery?" level of hoping to be better at what want to do in exchange for giving up a thing you weren't going to do anyways.
Imo, it's more akin to a rogue promising to never train in Thievery for a bonus to Stealth.
You're giving up the possibility of doing something you'd otherwise be quite proficient in.
Every Anethema has some very desirable spells, so there's a real opportunity cost in not being able to select them.
Envy and Sloth- no Electric Arc. No Fireball.
Gluttony- no Fear and severely curtailed usage of defensive and utility spells. Arguably, very limited wall usage.
Greed- No Invisibility or Fear.
Lust- no Polymorph effects. No water breathing, enlarge, or darkvision.
Pride- no conjuring anything, so most walls and creature summons are out. No Polymorph.
Wrath- again no physical walls or summons, but also no defensive buffs.
Virtually every Anethema will affect your spell selection in some way. Even if all you wanted to do was cast fireballs all day, not being able to either fly or turn something invisible is hurtful to the character's flexibility, ie: ostensibly the thing the wizard is supposed to be good at.
Maya Coleman wrote: Errenor wrote: If you are a GM and it's really-really exploiting, you can put a stop to this one way or the other. I would honestly like to GM one day, but I'm just not sure I have the inclination for it you know? I have ideas, but I don't really know how to put them together properly enough for a campaign.. But, I can dream! It sounds to me like you should GM a one-shot or a short (3-5 sessions?) mini-adventure.
You can explore and express your ideas without necessarily having to create a whole cohesive world around them.
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Tridus wrote:
They're still putting out interesting new stuff, but it doesn't feel like balance is something they're as focused on as they used to be. Real shame that, given balance was touted as a major selling point of the edition.
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