The Godsrain Prophecies Part Three

Wednesday, February 21, 2024

While it would require someone with far more expertise to confirm this absolutely, I am now convinced that this set of so-called prophecies are all authored by the same hand. Some of this is due to the handwriting on the documents that have been found in more pristine condition (it is perhaps fitting that a prophecy dedicated to the death of the Lucky Drunk was found on a scrap of parchment that looked like it had been dragged through the floor of more than one tavern), but the rest I attribute both to the places in which they were discovered and, I believe, the rhythm of the writing (though I would be a bit more sure of that if I had read The Peculiarities of Prophetic Speech more closely despite what I believe to be a truly excessive number of footnotes). I am sure that Lorminos knows someone who can confirm my beliefs if needed. That is if, of course, my Lady wants a set of writings so inflammatory to be so widely seen. I am far from convinced of the truth of any of them, and a single author could point as much to a singular troublemaker wishing to create strife as someone with a sudden gift of foresight.

—Yivali, Apprentice Researcher for the Lady of Graves




The Death of Cayden Cailean

Cayden Cailean had never thought himself a liar. A storyteller, sure, in the tradition of the tavern, where convincing someone of your worth might mean a refilled tankard. Who among his fellow patrons hadn’t added enemies to boost their tale of combat or invented some new twice-trapped room deep within the dungeon of a newly fallen foe? To claim that he’d become a god was more than normal boasting, but he couldn’t quite remember what had happened with the Starstone. Maybe he had passed its test and that was what kept him alive. Maybe he’d become a god and godhood felt no different than mortal existence. Maybe he would take another round of good ale on the house (a thank you from the barkeep for the honor of his presence). Maybe as he told his tale he could almost believe it. At least until the nightly dreams began.

They started off as flashes, tiny moments in the dark of night—a clanging sword that echoed down a long and shadowed hallway, the smell of new-cut marble turned impossibly acrid, the taste of blood and honey in the space behind his tongue. And still, no matter what they were, each vision woke him shuddering—skin drenched in sweat, heart racing wildly, cold breeze crawling up his spine, a voice he’d never heard before that whispered in his eardrums—liar, drunkard, cheater, thief. One day you will pay for this with everything you owe.

Cayden Cailean would never call himself a cheater. How could he know belief alone could make a deity? But every time the story spread that he had passed the Test of Starstone, something shifted in him, brought him that much closer to true divinity. By the time he heard his story chanted like a rowdy prayer, he was every inch the god that he had claimed to be. He did his best to share the gift, empower those who followed him, pass blessings out like cups of drink to those who strived for freedom. But no good deed had earned him pity from the voice that stalked his dreams, a whisper he now recognized as that of the Starstone itself, murmuring about the flask that he kept tight against his waist—forbidden, stolen, holy power. There will be a reckoning.

The flask was Cayden’s property from long before the Starstone, but now it held a draft he’d brought back from the Cathedral—a distillation of the power held within its core. And while he still could not remember what he’d done to make or bring it back, he knew that every sip gave him a taste of the divine. His followers’ convictions may have been the thing that made him a god, but all beliefs grow worn and frayed and faded over time. No matter who believed in him, he knew one thing down to his core: the liquid in his flask was what kept his lie alive.

But every tiny sip of nectar took his dreams on twisted paths, until he dreamt of death in the Cathedral every night. And after he had died each way the Test of Starstone could devise—some with the sound of steel on bone, some with the fall of flesh to floor, some with a bargain on his tongue that faded in a gasping breath—it left him with a final and unalterable verdict: time for you to pay your debt, return to mortal life.

Cayden Cailean had never minded being mortal, but as his story shifted, he mourned his legacy. Word spread, as words are wont to do, of his deceitful rise to grace, and those who’d raised his name in praise could barely muster pity. The innkeepers and brewers he’d counted as his worshipers now barred him from their premises, afraid they would be thought of as complicit in his lie, and soon the one-time god had faded out of public life, so far removed that no one knows quite how and where he died. Some say it happened in an alley, slumped over in the pouring rain, while others claim he died in battle fighting for a righteous cause, or braved the Starstone once again in one last fatal try.

Iomedae and Norgorber, as fellow gods Ascended, both moved to quell the rumors that they had also cheated to obtain divinity—Iomedae appearing on the front lines with her champions in tireless demonstrations of her prowess on the battlefield and Norgorber eliminating each one of his followers who dared to voice dissent or wonder who he used to be. But neither sees the true change that still lurks along the margins, as one after another shop begins to claim that, for a cost, you too can be transformed from mortal life to deity. If all it takes is stories and a liquor no one understands (as noted in a few reports of Cayden’s sad demise), then nothing stops a hundred shops from selling sugar water and a complement of town criers to those who feel that being god is next on their agenda—a warlord here, a despot there, the righteous and the vengeful—and what new revolution might they bring if they do rise?

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Asmodeus, Cayden Cailean, and Pharasma’s portraits have been marked “safe.”





A god created from belief alone? That is both deeply intriguing and somewhat baffling, as this is the first report I’ve read of such an occurrence. Surely if this were truly possible, I’d have encountered it before in my studies. This will require more research, though with what time I will pursue it I know not. It does make me wonder how many believers one might have to acquire to cross the boundary from mortal to god, and whether belief was nearly as important in this case as the Starstone nectar mentioned above. I have no doubt that if someone were able to distill a liquor from a source of pure divine power, it would be Cayden Cailean, but for those of us not blessed with that specific set of skills, I am struck by the idea that you could solve for number of believers and gain divinity simply by exceeding that threshold. Equations are not my strong suit, but I may see if I can find a collaborator and determine what that number might be. Though it might be difficult to do without revealing where the idea has come from. Perhaps it would be better to wait until I have all the prophecies properly analyzed and know what my Lady wishes to do with them before I begin making them a basis for a new research field, but it is hard not to get excited!


About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Lost Omens Firebrands, Lost Omens Highhelm, and Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

13 people marked this as a favorite.

Interesting


6 people marked this as a favorite.

thats my BOY right there. proud of u CC. please reply to my email


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"If you can convince enough people of the lie that you're divine, then you are" would be great news for Razmir.

Still worried about Shelyn, here.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

So - the safe list now holds one lawful evil, one Chaotic Good, and one True Neutral. Nicely balanced, that.


The possibility of a brew that makes you a deity is a scary thought, but also could possibly feed into a least a facet of the War to come if knowledge of it gets out, and the one vision from the end of the Stolen Fate AP.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

Well, there goes the theory that these were coming out in order of narrative impact. Glad to see that we will have no clue who's coming next


10 people marked this as a favorite.

In this installment of Godsrain prophecies, Razmir seethes, copes, and malds, as cayden the lair does what he couldn't.


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Crouza wrote:
In this installment of Godsrain prophecies, Razmir seethes, copes, and malds, as cayden the lair does what he couldn't.

Or he pops open Golarion Google and types in "how to steal flask from cayden cailean"

Sovereign Court

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Cayden Cailean is safe, I am content


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My boy. They didn't massacre my boy.


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The fact that belief doesn't make a god- or even directly empower them- is one of the things I greatly appreciate about the Pathfinder setting, alongside the lack of concrete prophecy. I do like the idea of Cayden faking it, with the Starstone having granted him a unique situation.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Tridus wrote:
Still worried about Shelyn, here.

I’d be pretty pissed if they killed off Shelyn. She’s been used as a poster child of PF’s queer rep, and it’d be obnoxiously edgy to kill her off given her role in the pantheon. Plus it’d immediately make Zon Kuthon completely boring as a character. I’m against the move to kill off a deity in general, especially now that Asmodeus, the only one who felt like he’d contribute as much by his death as continuing to live, is marked as safe, but Shelyn would be the absolute worst choice for them to make imo.


"Belief makes a god" is perhaps my least favorite description of divinity. I shall be happy to determine that this was delusion.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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CreepyShutIn wrote:
"Belief makes a god" is perhaps my least favorite description of divinity. I shall be happy to determine that this was delusion.

This has been a core fundamental of the setting from day one (although it took a bit to scrub all of that influence out—certain other TTRPG campaign settings have a lot of influence!), because the idea of a god who has no worshipers active but can still be a god and potentially come back or have secret cults and all that was there from the very start of the Pathfinder Adventure Path in Lissala's story.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Beautifully written! And such a great takedown of that hoary old "belief creates gods" trope. "[S]olve for number of believers," indeed. :)

Envoy's Alliance

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'm kind of surprised, I though it was going to be Cayden Cailean... now I'm scared


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like how each prophecy actually gets deep into the psyche of each god as a character, displaying their anxieties in an ironic, poetic way. When Asmodeus dies, his brother returns to not only prove him fundamentally wrong in his attitude towards mortals but reform his entire realm into a gentler, fairer place. What greater insult is there to the King of Hell than to not only undo his first great cruelty, but forgive him, and then proceed to do his job better than he ever could?

When Pharasma dies, the order of the world unravels, undeath gains ground, and the universe spirals closer to entropy: all her greatest fears come true.

And the guy who became a god on a drunken dare--the one who didn't earn his divinity but stumbled into it on accident--dies of imposter syndrome.

The prophecies may be easy enough to disprove, but I can understand why the gods don't want them spread around: they put their deepest, most personal fears on full blast.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

YES! MY DEAREST BOY IS SAFE! I honestly would have been astonished if Paizo had killed off one of their most popular and unique deities, but there was still that little bit of doubt in my mind.

Still leaning towards Iomedae, just for the literary elements of her being replaced by Arazni.


I never had Cayden on my radar to be perfectly honest, but I'm glad he's confirmed safe - and he should never doubt his legit ascension to divinity, even if he can't recall it. So, three down, seven more to go, and ten remaining.


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It does seem plausible that deep down Cayden would doubt that he actually passed the test of the Starstone, since we know that there are others who leave the cathedral without their lives and something less than godhood. It's also the case that he's decidedly more mortal than other gods, since I doubt Torag or Gorum are even capable of being inebriated no matter how much they drink. So Cayden would question whether he's closer to mortals than other gods is because of his inexperience, his basic deal, or maybe that he never actually went through with it all the way.

Definitely a more poetic end for Cayden than I was imagining, which was basically "he finally bit off more than he could chew" since he is, after all, the God of the foolhardy dare.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I had Cayden as living but I also had him being held back for the final reveal because he's one of the most popular gods in the setting. I'm pleasantly surprised, now I'm reshuffling my "who gets revealed, who gets held back, who actually dies" deck again.


First of all, fantastic. Erin, I am adoring your work here.
And what a way for Cayden to go. HolyFlamingo! I really think you go something there of how it's turning around the gods innards. Maybe that's why I'm really having so much fun digging in, and I think these explorations are so relevant, and not just a neat way of saying "hey, they're saved!"

But ooohhh this timing is funny.
I was just reading a series with a more modern take on how to from belief become a god. DFZ Changeling, why are these fairies invading my urban fantasy, and what the heck you're using multimedia to capture get eyes on what now?

So you know my brain is already stewing...

Grand Lodge

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
VerBeeker wrote:
The possibility of a brew that makes you a deity is a scary thought, but also could possibly feed into a least a facet of the War to come if knowledge of it gets out, and the one vision from the end of the Stolen Fate AP.

And yet it's not without mythological precedent - the Gods of the Aesir were immortal because they ate Idunn's apples, not because they were intrinsically immortal.


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Here's an interesting detail: it's the same author across all of these prophecies. Whether that changes or not, not sure, but it's definitely something worth noting.


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Tridus wrote:

"If you can convince enough people of the lie that you're divine, then you are" would be great news for Razmir.

Still worried about Shelyn, here.

Razmir does have an entry in Divine Mysteries...

I maintain Shelyn is safe because her not being so would be a PR train wreck for Paizo.


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These are all so very, very good.

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:
CreepyShutIn wrote:
"Belief makes a god" is perhaps my least favorite description of divinity. I shall be happy to determine that this was delusion.
This has been a core fundamental of the setting from day one (although it took a bit to scrub all of that influence out—certain other TTRPG campaign settings have a lot of influence!), because the idea of a god who has no worshipers active but can still be a god and potentially come back or have secret cults and all that was there from the very start of the Pathfinder Adventure Path in Lissala's story.

It's fun to explore settings that differentiate themselves from each other. This isn't Discworld, nor is it That Other TTRPG Setting, and I don't mind the reminders of such. Keep 'em coming!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
CreepyShutIn wrote:
"Belief makes a god" is perhaps my least favorite description of divinity. I shall be happy to determine that this was delusion.
This has been a core fundamental of the setting from day one (although it took a bit to scrub all of that influence out—certain other TTRPG campaign settings have a lot of influence!), because the idea of a god who has no worshipers active but can still be a god and potentially come back or have secret cults and all that was there from the very start of the Pathfinder Adventure Path in Lissala's story.

Hrmmm this reminds me of Xanderghul for some reason.

So does that mean Razmir could or potentially has become Deific?


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Great, now I'm more worried about Saranrae again, now that two of the three people on that cover art we saw were eliminated straight away from consideration and she was not.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Anorak wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
CreepyShutIn wrote:
"Belief makes a god" is perhaps my least favorite description of divinity. I shall be happy to determine that this was delusion.
This has been a core fundamental of the setting from day one (although it took a bit to scrub all of that influence out—certain other TTRPG campaign settings have a lot of influence!), because the idea of a god who has no worshipers active but can still be a god and potentially come back or have secret cults and all that was there from the very start of the Pathfinder Adventure Path in Lissala's story.

Hrmmm this reminds me of Xanderghul for some reason.

So does that mean Razmir could or potentially has become Deific?

I believe JJacobs is saying that Razmir can only become Deific if he either follows a path like Irori (purifies himself to his deific potential) or the Ascended (takes the Test of the Starstone).

(In my headcanon, he's undertaking preparations to become a lich, because he cannot stomach the idea of dying, and if/when he dies, his final fate is going to be rather similar to that of Sisyphus in Greek mythology)

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kittyburger wrote:


I believe JJacobs is saying that Razmir can only become Deific if he either follows a path like Irori (purifies himself to his deific potential) or the Ascended (takes the Test of the Starstone).

(In my headcanon, he's undertaking preparations to become a lich, because he cannot stomach the idea of dying, and if/when he dies, his final fate is going to be rather similar to that of Sisyphus in Greek mythology)

I see but with Xanderghul he

Spoiler:
secretly gained a divine source and became the Peacock Spirit.

Now here we have mention of a divine substance in this blog that could make you divine.

So I wonder if Razmir is searching for such a source.


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Oh now that is a FASCINATING concept; that he was never "really" a god, and his death is just a string being unravelled to find there were never actually any knots in it.

Also interesting, how they go from world-shaking (or potentially so) things in the first two, to something as "mundane" as this.... Like, it's not him DYING that changes anything, it's the revelation and the implications an come from that.

I have to wonder. How much of the background for this is canonical.... The Asmodeus one is completely canon-compliant in everything up to when the injury kills him, so Ihys might or might not be in the wound but there's nothing saying that he absolutely isn't. For this one though, the whole thing revolves around the very start of CC's story. If it's "completely heretical", then that's one thing; but if it's "stuff does not turn out to happen this way", then that implies SO MUCH about the nature of acquiring divinity.

For "canon" though, I think the idea of him having some imposter syndrome, like "I don't remember what I did, what if I'm just faking it well enough that the world agrees, and it will all come down eventually". I mean it's not something I'd WISH on him, or anyone, but I think it adds to his character. And I choose to believe that, IF the backstory here is true, then the Starstone has come to accept him over time, making him a deity in truth instead of someone propped up by borrowed power.

...hm, a thought. I think it's been confirmed somewhere (edit because I wrote this before reading the comments: in this very thread, as well!) that belief alone won't make someone into a god; but IF someone is carrying around like Essence De Dieu, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that belief could SHAPE the essence.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Anorak wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:


I believe JJacobs is saying that Razmir can only become Deific if he either follows a path like Irori (purifies himself to his deific potential) or the Ascended (takes the Test of the Starstone).

(In my headcanon, he's undertaking preparations to become a lich, because he cannot stomach the idea of dying, and if/when he dies, his final fate is going to be rather similar to that of Sisyphus in Greek mythology)

I see but with Xanderghul he ** spoiler omitted **

Now here we have mention of a divine substance in this blog that could make you divine.

So I wonder if Razmir is searching for such a source.

My thought on the matter is, Razmir is fundamentally risk-averse. He declared himself a deity and pretended he took the Test of the Starstone, and assumed he could make himself immortal later. One of my fellow players at my PFS store refers to Lichdom as the "coward's path to immortality," and tbh he's not wrong. The number of mortals who have achieved godhood is either single-digit or a very low double-digit number, and for most, pursuing godhood is either a vanity pursuit that they don't actually have the discipline or will to follow through; or an odd expression of a death wish.

Lichdom, by comparison, is predictable and relatively safe (for a value of "safe" that includes a step in the process that is, "You die, but come back"). I think Razmir is more likely to pursue lichdom and then try to find a path to divinity AFTER he's comfortably ensconced in immortality, rather than take the risks inherent in legitimate paths to divinity.

Just my opinion, but that's what my opinion is. ;)


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Kittyburger wrote:
VerBeeker wrote:
The possibility of a brew that makes you a deity is a scary thought, but also could possibly feed into a least a facet of the War to come if knowledge of it gets out, and the one vision from the end of the Stolen Fate AP.
And yet it's not without mythological precedent - the Gods of the Aesir were immortal because they ate Idunn's apples, not because they were intrinsically immortal.

Also in the biblical myth of the garden of Eden where eating the fruits of both the tree of knowledge and the tree of life is apparently how gods are created. After Adam eats the fruit of knowledge, the god Yahweh acknowledges that Adam has become partially like him and the other gods, and Yahweh takes measures to prevent Adam from completing the transformation by eating the other fruit.

Genesis 3:22 wrote:
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

One would imagine that a simpler solution would just have been to have destroyed the two trees, but perhaps they were the source of divinity for Yahweh and his fellow gods and he either lacked the power to destroy them or feared that destroying them would negate the divinity that they had granted.

Interestingly, Yahweh doesn't mention the need to prevent Eve from eating the fruit of life. Perhaps she had already eaten both fruits so it was too late to prevent her from becoming a goddess. Her death, unlike Adam's, never gets mentioned, after all. ;)

Liberty's Edge

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Folks sure are making a LOT of assumptions that Razmir is in fact not a Deity, true and proper. Remember, we now know for a fact that all of the setting info is intended to be interpreted as and should factually be considered to be coming from an unreliable narrator and therefore subject to misinformation, bias, and loaded with inaccuracies.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Sanityfaerie wrote:
So - the safe list now holds one lawful evil, one Chaotic Good, and one True Neutral. Nicely balanced, that.

USED to be.

They've transcended such paltry mortal conceptions.

Pretty much to their Core, even.

Also, on the topic of Razimir:

He could be an unaware Clone or avatar of Nethys that got 'spun off' during that deity's Ascension and not activated until a given event or something.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

13 people marked this as a favorite.
Benjamin Tait wrote:
Here's an interesting detail: it's the same author across all of these prophecies. Whether that changes or not, not sure, but it's definitely something worth noting.

If you mean real-world author, yes, the entire series is written by Erin, who is doing a bang-up job with them so far!

If you mean, in-world author, you'll just have to wait and see, though Yivali is starting to formulate some theories about the prophecies' origins.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

27 people marked this as a favorite.
Kittyburger wrote:
Anorak wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
CreepyShutIn wrote:
"Belief makes a god" is perhaps my least favorite description of divinity. I shall be happy to determine that this was delusion.
This has been a core fundamental of the setting from day one (although it took a bit to scrub all of that influence out—certain other TTRPG campaign settings have a lot of influence!), because the idea of a god who has no worshipers active but can still be a god and potentially come back or have secret cults and all that was there from the very start of the Pathfinder Adventure Path in Lissala's story.

Hrmmm this reminds me of Xanderghul for some reason.

So does that mean Razmir could or potentially has become Deific?

I believe JJacobs is saying that Razmir can only become Deific if he either follows a path like Irori (purifies himself to his deific potential) or the Ascended (takes the Test of the Starstone).

(In my headcanon, he's undertaking preparations to become a lich, because he cannot stomach the idea of dying, and if/when he dies, his final fate is going to be rather similar to that of Sisyphus in Greek mythology)

Razmir's biggest challenge to overcome on the path to becoming a deity is that stories about him are more interesting and compelling when he's NOT a deity.


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

Also, on the topic of Razimir:

He could be an unaware Clone or avatar of Nethys that got 'spun off' during that deity's Ascension and not activated until a given event or something.

Razmir is the 'little engine that tries to become a deity but ultimately never will,' and as a result it's impossible for him to ever become a god, nor is he easily manipulated to the point that he could be the spawn or clone of a god, so him ever becoming a part of the Core 20 (or even as a deity choice for Clerics et. al.) won't happen, and him being the contingency for Nethys also likely won't happen.

Put simply, the memery behind Razmir suggests he won't change, even if we end up in a PF3, or if he somehow makes it into SF2.

Grand Archive

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Razmir's biggest challenge to overcome on the path to becoming a deity is that stories about him are more interesting and compelling when he's NOT a deity.

... I agree. xD


Calliope5431 wrote:


Razmir does have an entry in Divine Mysteries...

I maintain Shelyn is safe because her not being so would be a PR train wreck for Paizo.

Thats a not a good enough reason for her to stay. She isn't very unique for one


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Called it.


So how much of this is canonical then? Does Cayden really believe that he is only a God because he faked passing the test and everybody believed him? Is the drink in his flask real?


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Troodos wrote:
Tridus wrote:
Still worried about Shelyn, here.
I’d be pretty pissed if they killed off Shelyn. She’s been used as a poster child of PF’s queer rep, and it’d be obnoxiously edgy to kill her off given her role in the pantheon. Plus it’d immediately make Zon Kuthon completely boring as a character. I’m against the move to kill off a deity in general, especially now that Asmodeus, the only one who felt like he’d contribute as much by his death as continuing to live, is marked as safe, but Shelyn would be the absolute worst choice for them to make imo.

Yeah, it certainly wouldn't be good representation wise, since the whole Prismatic Ray throuple really fill that. I'm not sure if that is reason enough to prevent it, and I'll probably be worried until I get an answer. (I was playing a Bard that went through a lot of crap with Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon while I was going through a lot of stuff in real life, so its not like this is entirely rational for me. It would hit hard for personal reasons.)

Its probably a tough balancing act since on the writing end you want it to be someone that will have some impact to drive future plots, but not so much that it effectively detracts from the setting.

Liberty's Edge

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Themetricsystem wrote:

Remember, we now know for a fact that all of the setting info is intended to be interpreted as and should factually be considered to be coming from an unreliable narrator

We do? Did I miss something during the decades?


Kittyburger wrote:
VerBeeker wrote:
The possibility of a brew that makes you a deity is a scary thought, but also could possibly feed into a least a facet of the War to come if knowledge of it gets out, and the one vision from the end of the Stolen Fate AP.
And yet it's not without mythological precedent - the Gods of the Aesir were immortal because they ate Idunn's apples, not because they were intrinsically immortal.

I'm mainly stuck on the facet taken from Stolen Fate,

Stolen Fate Spoilers:
Ultimate power within the grasp of almost countless hands.
Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Anorak wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
CreepyShutIn wrote:
"Belief makes a god" is perhaps my least favorite description of divinity. I shall be happy to determine that this was delusion.
This has been a core fundamental of the setting from day one (although it took a bit to scrub all of that influence out—certain other TTRPG campaign settings have a lot of influence!), because the idea of a god who has no worshipers active but can still be a god and potentially come back or have secret cults and all that was there from the very start of the Pathfinder Adventure Path in Lissala's story.

Hrmmm this reminds me of Xanderghul for some reason.

So does that mean Razmir could or potentially has become Deific?

I believe JJacobs is saying that Razmir can only become Deific if he either follows a path like Irori (purifies himself to his deific potential) or the Ascended (takes the Test of the Starstone).

(In my headcanon, he's undertaking preparations to become a lich, because he cannot stomach the idea of dying, and if/when he dies, his final fate is going to be rather similar to that of Sisyphus in Greek mythology)

Razmir's biggest challenge to overcome on the path to becoming a deity is that stories about him are more interesting and compelling when he's NOT a deity.

And the (very valid) Doylist explanation rears its head ;)

Horizon Hunters

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Troodos wrote:
Tridus wrote:
Still worried about Shelyn, here.
I’d be pretty pissed if they killed off Shelyn. She’s been used as a poster child of PF’s queer rep, and it’d be obnoxiously edgy to kill her off given her role in the pantheon.

I don't like this take, as I feel like it diminishes Shelyn as a character. Yes, it's easy to show her artwork with Sarenrae and Desna to a queer person and say "Poly Lesbians=Pathfinder Good" but if you presented me with the same characters with the same dynamic and told me nothing bad and permanent would ever happen to them under threat of being edgy or "burying the gays" I'd roll my eyes. If there are no stakes, there isn't really much of a conflict. No conflict means there isn't a story. I've played Pathfinder long enough to know is representation everywhere. I've stat at multiple Pathfinder Society tables with brand new players and explained to them about Kyra and Merisiel when they're picking their first characters. If you read adventures, a lot of NPCs are highlighted for their different sexualities, romantic attractions, or gender status, even if it's not relevant to the adventure. I don't think anyone should be off the table just because they're queer rep.

The LGBT experience can be a messy one. Sometimes tragic things happen, and we don't get to keep the happiness we find. For me, Lamashtu represents my queer experience more than anyone in The Prismatic Ray, to the point where I have her holy symbol tattooed on me. While I don't want anything to happen to her, that's the way the story plays out sometimes. It won't diminish my fondness for her (if anything, it might strengthen it), and I won't call out Paizo for having an agenda, good or bad, behind the selection besides trying to tell a compelling story.

It's been confirmed the Prismatic Ray is going to be shaken up. I know many people are calling for more members to be added, but I foresee a character leaving or being replaced. My current main theory is that Zon-Kuthon dies and Shelyn becomes more distant overall in grief or in pursuit of answers.


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Gnollvalue wrote:
My current main theory is that Zon-Kuthon dies and Shelyn becomes more distant overall in grief or in pursuit of answers.

Zon-Kuthon is a good bet, since there's a real meta problem of "how do we solve the Nidal problem." Since some of the stuff that's been written about Nidal is dark to a degree that Pathfinder doesn't really do anymore. It just seems weird to say "well, Cheliax doesn't do slavery anymore" (a good change,, IMO) when their neighbor to the north is still kidnapping people to slowly and gruesomely torture to death in service of their warped god.

If Zon-Kuthon gets bisected by his sister, that sets up for Nidal to still be an occasionally horrifying place (There's a lot of vampires around) but less of an overwhelmingly horrific place.


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So this person obtained a spark of divinity and kept it within one of his personal items, and since then the stories people tell about him have caused his divine powers to grow?

I didn't know Cayden Cailean was an Exemplar!

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