| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe it's a little too optimistic but I think when the class comes out, most people who wanted the class to go in another direction won't be up in arms. Most of the community is pretty mature, with a few outliers. We might get a few posts of complaints but not like some of the issues that get debated around here ad nauseum. Once released I think people know you're not going to see big sweeping changes that change fundamentals of the class barring a remaster; people are discussing damage so much because at this point a lot of the class is theoretical.
I dunno, the "people upset the class doesn't function the way they'd like it to" is one of the central components of both the discourse surrounding alchemists and wizards, and those are two of the most enduring topics on the forum.
The problem is that the Kineticist carries too much on itself. There are multiple distinct mechanical and conceptual niches the class supports, and fans of those design spaces have no guarantee (closer to the opposite) that Paizo will ever touch those spaces again.
You could see it in the playtest, where some people wanted to make sure there was nothing like Burn in the final version of the class, because it impugns on the fantasy of being an all day caster, and the kineticist is the only option people have for that. Others were asking for Paizo to bring back burn, because PF doesn't really have any power at a cost mechanics otherwise, and fans of that idea saw it as their only way to add that back to the game. It's also the dedicated elementalist, for players who want to just focus in on a specific element (many of them were concerned about poor access to things like cold or electric damage), while other people mostly just wanted a non-vancian spellcaster and were disappointed the PF2 kineticist has stripped away non-elemental power sources because the ATLA fantasy isn't important to them.
So I expect passions to run kind of high in any area the class doesn't live up to the specific fantasies of a specific group.
Could someone remind me what the confirmed damage types are on Elemental Blast?
Wood is going to have a poison option IIRC, and I seem to remember something about piercing as well.
Maybe it's a little too optimistic but I think when the class comes out, most people who wanted the class to go in another direction won't be up in arms. Most of the community is pretty mature, with a few outliers. We might get a few posts of complaints but not like some of the issues that get debated around here ad nauseum. Once released I think people know you're not going to see big sweeping changes that change fundamentals of the class barring a remaster; people are discussing damage so much because at this point a lot of the class is theoretical.I dunno, the "people upset the class doesn't function the way they'd like it to" is one of the central components of both the discourse surrounding alchemists and wizards, and those are two of the most enduring topics on the forum.
The problem is that the Kineticist carries too much on itself. There are multiple distinct mechanical and conceptual niches the class supports, and fans of those design spaces have no guarantee (closer to the opposite) that Paizo will ever touch those spaces again.
You could see it in the playtest, where some people wanted to make sure there was nothing like Burn in the final version of the class, because it impugns on the fantasy of being an all day caster, and the kineticist is the only option people have for that. Others were asking for Paizo to bring back burn, because PF doesn't really have any power at a cost mechanics otherwise, and fans of that idea saw it as their only way to add that back to the game. It's also the dedicated elementalist, for players who want to just focus in on a specific element (many of them were concerned about poor access to things like cold or electric damage), while other people mostly just wanted a non-vancian spellcaster and were disappointed the PF2 kineticist has stripped away non-elemental power sources because the ATLA fantasy isn't important to them.
So I expect passions to run kind of high in any area the class doesn't live up to the...
I totally agree with everything you've said. My hope is that, because there are so many varying opinions (varying ratios of martial/blaster/utility/etc, and people are okay with damage from, as long as it's better than a cantrip to I want 0 utility but more damage than a fighter) that it's causing more discourse than normal. That and we've gotten so few previews that people don't know what to expect. And, as you said, it's hard to know how paizo values the uniqueness of the class. I'm hoping that once people see roughly where the class will settle, that people will be okay with it.
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the discourse around Kineticist and DPR goes much deeper than the class itself. In fact it's barely even about Kineticist. As long as we don't have a mage-flavored character that can be a dedicated damage dealer in the same way a Barbarian or Magus can, there will be a decently large group unhappy about it.
It's such a big and extremely popular fantasy. Just in the playgroup I run to there are two or three people like that.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think anyone wanting a caster to match martials at DPR is going to be disappointed, because the cost for that is stuff like wave casting. That's just how PF2 splits the balance.
That's why I said "mage-flavored character" and not "caster". It doesn't have to be a caster. I mean, sure, some people want actual casters to be able to do that, but that's not a realistic compromise. What a lot of other people want, however, is just waving hands and throwing energy at people and watching them die. Nothing more, nothing less.
We're more than 3 years into the game and that's still not an option, which I find sad because it's absolutely not outside the realm of possibility, in terms of mechanical balance. Magus is almost that, except it puts weapons or punches into the mix, which kinda ruins it if you're looking for that sweet pure mage flavor.
It seems to me that most focus spells are a level behind the highest level spells a caster has in damage (ie elemental blast does 2d6 less than a fireball of the same level). Of course there are outliers for damage, give or take a couple d6s for some spells, but assuming the baseline is 2d6 per level. And the stronger water impulses we've seen (call the hurricane and ride the tsunami) clock in at around the damage of a spell two levels lower than the highest spell a caster could cast (level 8 fireball deals around 56 damage and ride the tsunami 55 on average). So max level spell damage, one level lower focus spell, one level lower strong impulse. I think that's fair.
The only thing that makes it maybe a good deal worse is the number of actions overflow impulses eat up but we don't know much on that front.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Paizo is typically so good at communicating, but they have been pretty tight lipped about Kineticist since the one blog post. For other classes, by this time they were doing proper previews,interacting with forums, even doing live plays in some cases. In this case, they haven't even made the Kineticist's intended role very clear. I blame the Remaster news steeling the thunder.
Anyway, as this is a hype thread I'll add that I'm extremely excited for all the build potential. Really want to see how Metal and Earth turn out.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Big mood.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Could someone remind me what the confirmed damage types are on Elemental Blast?
At PaizoCon, they said on stream that Wood does Piercing and Slashing and Water does Bludgeoning and Cold. It is also mentioned that those two elements have more healing options than the other elements. As for Poison, it was mentioned that Wood could pick up that damage type with the Versatile Blast feat. Electricity is also mentioned as possible to acquire with that feat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Could someone remind me what the confirmed damage types are on Elemental Blast?At PaizoCon, they said on stream that Wood does Piercing and Slashing and Water does Bludgeoning and Cold. It is also mentioned that those two elements have more healing options than the other elements. As for Poison, it was mentioned that Wood could pick up that damage type with the Versatile Blast feat. Electricity is also mentioned as possible to acquire with that feat.
It's those Versatile Blast options I'm most curious about. A character with at-will elemental damage opens up so many fun options - I can't wait to be a Vishkanya slinging my own toxic blood around!
Don't forget the inevitable, "kineticists don't deal any good dps" threads! ;)I am happy that PF2 Kineticist happens : I love the concept of the element-wielder in all its possible forms. AND other threads will not turn into the newest "I want PF2 Kineticist" thread anymore.
Double chunk of happiness.
Yep once the we want a kineticist threads are gone all that will be left are the alchemists suck, fighters/ bards are op and witches, swashbuckler are undertuned threads.
Here's hoping remaster might hit a few of the others too. :)
I always thought it was a dumb argument, because kineticists have at-will blasts that will never run out, unlike spells. In P1E, cantrips weren't as powerful as P2E, so if you missed an attack roll or the target resisted the spell, it's gone. As much as an Electrokineticist sucks (given how low that energy type was supported), it is far more viable than a spellcaster casting a Lightning Bolt and hoping it deals full damage.
Also, kineticists can access to different damage types all the time, unlike spellcasters which have to know or prepare the right spells.
Finally, after seeing how players could abuse Kinetic Blade/Whip, it's pretty hard to consider them bad. Seriously, by 20th level, a simple kinetic blade deals 10d6 points of damage per attack, and a kineticist has 3 attacks... which can be MELEE TOUCH attacks. For a composite kinetic blade, this reaches up to 20d6 points of damage. That's like throwing 3 delayed blast fireballs without a saving throw.
On a sidenote, if you really want a questionable argument, look no further than "the kineticist isn't the same as D&D's Warlock". Sure they totally don't have...
- At-will blasts
- ways to alter said blasts
- ways to mimic spells
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the discourse around Kineticist and DPR goes much deeper than the class itself. In fact it's barely even about Kineticist. As long as we don't have a mage-flavored character that can be a dedicated damage dealer in the same way a Barbarian or Magus can, there will be a decently large group unhappy about it.
It's such a big and extremely popular fantasy. Just in the playgroup I run to there are two or three people like that.
I feel like the psychic manages to accomplish that, but people just don't seem to care. I suspect it's because the psychic isn't using its spell slots to accomplish this but instead using a mechanic to amplify existing and unique cantrips? Or maybe it's focus point dependence for big nova's make them not happy? IDK why, but I feel like there are dedicated damage dealer options and I really am not a fan of "I want to play a Bow Fighter shooting laser beams", because if that's the case I tell those people play a Bow Fighter and grab some Elemental Ammo and reflavor your lazy ass to be happy for once.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't forget the inevitable, "kineticists don't deal any good dps" threads! ;)I am happy that PF2 Kineticist happens : I love the concept of the element-wielder in all its possible forms. AND other threads will not turn into the newest "I want PF2 Kineticist" thread anymore.
Double chunk of happiness.
Yep once the we want a kineticist threads are gone all that will be left are the alchemists suck, fighters/ bards are op and witches, swashbuckler are undertuned threads.
Here's hoping remaster might hit a few of the others too. :)
I always thought it was a dumb argument, because kineticists have at-will blasts that will never run out, unlike spells. In P1E, cantrips weren't as powerful as P2E, so if you missed an attack roll or the target resisted the spell, it's gone. As much as an Electrokineticist sucks (given how low that energy type was supported), it is far more viable than a spellcaster casting a Lightning Bolt and hoping it deals full damage.
Also, kineticists can access to different damage types all the time, unlike spellcasters which have to know or prepare the right spells.
Finally, after seeing how players could abuse Kinetic Blade/Whip, it's pretty hard to consider them bad. Seriously, by 20th level, a simple kinetic blade deals 10d6 points of damage per attack, and a kineticist has 3 attacks... which can be MELEE TOUCH attacks. For a composite kinetic blade, this reaches up to 20d6 points of damage. That's like throwing 3 delayed blast fireballs without a saving throw.
On a sidenote, if you really want a questionable argument, look no further than "the kineticist isn't the same as D&D's Warlock". Sure they totally don't have...
- At-will blasts
- ways to alter said blasts
- ways to mimic spells
Had trouble separating your 1e and 2e points, so forgive me if I missed something. The point is that for 2e, cantrips are great and are at-will all day too. So the blasts should be slightly better than cantrips to make up for less versatility. Same for other impulses, they should be slightly better than the equivalent spell to compensate for less versatility and the need to invest a feat to get the narrow focus.
Especially with the refocus change, spellcasters last much longer through the day (3 Tempest Surges or Elemental Blasts per combat means high value spells can stretch further).
We'll see what we get soon I hope.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Anyway, I don't know if this is old news or not, but there's some previews up.
Here's a short 4 minute video that previews Fire
https://youtu.be/_19SBri_PLs
And here is a stream from Roll For Combat about the earth element that's going to start later today.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ilt5OvoFgzk
As cool as the fire preview is (and I'm sure the earth preview will be great) they won't be sharing kineticist stuff. I did love what I saw for fire! Awesome spells, damn.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Anyway, I don't know if this is old news or not, but there's some previews up.
Here's a short 4 minute video that previews Fire
https://youtu.be/_19SBri_PLsAnd here is a stream from Roll For Combat about the earth element that's going to start later today.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ilt5OvoFgzk
I don't know why you think the Roll for Combat stream will be about the earth element; the description for the stram doesn't even mention the earth element. It states, "Check out the Pathfinder Remasted Changes as We Preview the Upcoming Rage of Elements". "As the first Paizo book to incorporate the new rules for Pathfinder 2e from Pathfinder Remastered, we highlight those updates, preview the book, and discuss its content and creation with Rage of Elements lead author Jessica Redakop." Which to me is even better than previewing the earth plane.
Also, Wargamer has an article on the plane of metal. I found it fairly lackluster, but there is some info there:
https://www.wargamer.com/pathfinder/plane-of-metal-playlist
It is very light on details, has no art, and is written with a theme around metal music. While amusing, I did not like that the article spends so much of its word count on music.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Looks like Wargamer is going to have a more complete "Plane of Metal" preview coming later. In the meantime, there are a few tasty bits.
- Lightning confirmed as beign associated with the metal element (probably metal/air).
- Fifteen new spells associated with metal, of which four were briefly described
- There are apparently 4 Ways associated with Metal - Blade, Spoke, Wall, and Conduit.
- Laudinmio, Sovereign of Alchemy is available as a deity for clerics.
But yeah - it looks like the spoilers being handed out are one element per site, and probably don't have any real info on kineticists.
I feel like the psychic manages to accomplish that, but people just don't seem to care. I suspect it's because the psychic isn't using its spell slots to accomplish this but instead using a mechanic to amplify existing and unique cantrips? Or maybe it's focus point dependence for big nova's make them not happy? IDK why, but I feel like there are dedicated damage dealer options and I really am not a fan of "I want to play a Bow Fighter shooting laser beams", because if that's the case I tell those people play a Bow Fighter and grab some Elemental Ammo and reflavor your lazy ass to be happy for once.I think the discourse around Kineticist and DPR goes much deeper than the class itself. In fact it's barely even about Kineticist. As long as we don't have a mage-flavored character that can be a dedicated damage dealer in the same way a Barbarian or Magus can, there will be a decently large group unhappy about it.
It's such a big and extremely popular fantasy. Just in the playgroup I run to there are two or three people like that.
If it was the playtest psychic yes. But the current post-playtest version does not.
Psychic ended up with a very severe restriction that many players thought was the stupefied condition caused after Unleash Psyche.
What happens is that when the psychic uses Unleash and the 2 rounds are over, he is 2 more rounds practically prohibited from casting without risking throwing away some spell slot or focus spell for failing the flat check of the stupefied. So this put it in a situation where he needs to bet everything in his first 3 turns.
In parallel to this a player who makes an elementalist/phoenix sorcerer receives similar additional damage/bonus benefits for the lineage spells + Dangerous Sorcery/Burn It! But without the limiter of being stupefied afterwards. This turned me and other blast enthusiast players away from psychic in its final version.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Psychic ended up with a very severe restriction that many players thought was the stupefied condition caused after Unleash Psyche.
Very severe kind of an overstatement. It sucks, but it doesn't even kick in until round 4, which means many combats won't even see it.
he is 2 more rounds practically prohibited from casting without risking throwing away some spell slot or focus spell for failing the flat check of the stupefied.
A little overstated here too calling it "practically prohibited". It's a DC6 flat check.
In parallel to this a player who makes an elementalist/phoenix sorcerer receives similar additional damage/bonus benefits for the lineage spells + Dangerous Sorcery/Burn It!
Unleash Psyche's bonus literally twice as good as dangerous sorcery and applies to focus spells and cantrips (which dangerous sorcery doesn't).
Psychic ended up with a very severe restriction that many players thought was the stupefied condition caused after Unleash Psyche.Very severe kind of an overstatement. It sucks, but it doesn't even kick in until round 4, which means many combats won't even see it.
Yes, more often than not, especially in severe encounters.
he is 2 more rounds practically prohibited from casting without risking throwing away some spell slot or focus spell for failing the flat check of the stupefied.A little overstated here too calling it "practically prohibited". It's a DC6 flat check.
Speak for yourself, I don't risk wasting one of my few psychic spell slots with an extra 25% failure and -1 into my DC.
In parallel to this a player who makes an elementalist/phoenix sorcerer receives similar additional damage/bonus benefits for the lineage spells + Dangerous Sorcery/Burn It!Unleash Psyche's bonus literally twice as good as dangerous sorcery and applies to focus spells and cantrips (which dangerous sorcery doesn't).
And Burn It! works in place with elemental sorcerer focus spells, such as Elemental Blast which still benefits from the bloodline's extra damage. It's still 1.5x your spell level, and in the end I don't get stupified.
Sorry Squiggly, but in the end players are restricted to using cantrips when they are stupefied for 2 rounds. It's a simple matter of saving resources for when you can unleash again.
Psychic is actually fine for blasting so long as you pick silent whisper for shatter mind. Three straight rounds of amp shatter mind, two under unleash psyche, is usually enough for any fight. Against an obvious boss or extreme fight, you lead with a spell or two and hold your unleash (if you bother using it at all).
Even if you get stupified, you just use a bow (better than non-electric arc cantrips anyway) and one for all or some other non-spell actions. It's perfectly serviceable so long as you're willing to build properly.
As cool as the fire preview is (and I'm sure the earth preview will be great) they won't be sharing kineticist stuff. I did love what I saw for fire! Awesome spells, damn.
That eat fire reaction cantrip was neat. Nice useful reaction option that would be useful often.
I'm a huge fan of cinder swarm too. Can never have enough sustain spells! It also scales well, decent range, can target reflex or fortitude, can deal straight fire or piercing and fire, the emanation only hits enemies, and has good riders in persistent damage/forced movement or dazzled/blind (has incap but still).
Had trouble separating your 1e and 2e points, so forgive me if I missed something. The point is that for 2e, cantrips are great and are at-will all day too. So the blasts should be slightly better than cantrips to make up for less versatility. Same for other impulses, they should be slightly better than the equivalent spell to compensate for less versatility and the need to invest a feat to get the narrow focus.
Especially with the refocus change, spellcasters last much longer through the day (3 Tempest Surges or Elemental Blasts per combat means high value spells can stretch further).
We'll see what we get soon I hope.
My point is that in P1E, cantrips were very weak, even as at-will spells. Kinetic blasts simply blew them out of the water. In P2E, cantrips and focus spells are similar to kinetic blasts in some aspects. This time, the whole situation is reversed.
IIRC, kinetic blasts are now like weapons or bombs, so you can lob 3 blasts per round. I feel like it's gonna be like the alchemist and its modifications.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
In the wargamer interview a while back, they said that they want to make going single element still be good and not make people feel mandatory to taking multiple elements. I'm gonna be salty if my fire boi ends up feeling bad.
Primal casters get a shield equivalent which is nice
What do yall think of glass shield?https://ibb.co/nCXnJLv
Need to be clarified since the very beginning IMO.
"This cantrip functions as the shield spell, except it has Hardness 2 and 4 Hit Points." means that it inherits all Shield cantrip functions including the 10 minute cooldown after blocking. But this cantrip has hit points! So what happen if it doesn't broke? You can block again? Or you can't reuse it anyway like normal shield cantrip?
Primal casters get a shield equivalent which is nice
Not only this but also means that Arcane casters now can block 2 or even 3 times more if you also has a normal shield and Shield Block. You will now can block with Glass Shield first, then next round block with normal Shield cantrip, then in 3º is where you really need to use your physical shield to block. This is specially useful for Sparkling Targe Magus (but this class need to an errata to explain if you can also use Glass Shield to block spells and magical effects).
What do yall think of glass shield?
less problematic for the Geneva convention then a Glass Blade
But seriously, I think it looks good but should not scale just every other spell Level
Every spell Level is already only every other Level, the spell is going to have some phases where it's mit very good (If used for blocking)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What do yall think of glass shield?less problematic for the Geneva convention then a Glass Blade
But seriously, I think it looks good but should not scale just every other spell Level
Every spell Level is already only every other Level, the spell is going to have some phases where it's mit very good (If used for blocking)
There's a new sturdy shield every three item levels. Scaling a shield spell every four character levels is pretty close to that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I sure hope so. A Kinetecist who devotes all of their energy and time into mastering Fire should be FAR more powerful with Fire than one who chose to learn other elements as well.
I'm sure they'll at least get a +1 damage for their focus... :P