gesalt's page

Without doing any in-depth analysis, I would guess Force is probably still an upgrade over Bludgeoning, due to incorporeals if nothing else. (It does still help against Incorporeal, right?) But I doubt it is enough of one to offset the reduced base damage, especially at higher levels.

Surprisingly, no. Imaginary Weapon already had the Force tag which let it bypass the whole "resist all except x,y,z" thing incorporeal monsters usually have.

Force damage is actually a pretty big buff, because there are very few, if any creatures, with resistance to force, while resistance to bludgeoning comes up with some regularity. Basically, in many campaigns, resistance to bludgeoning will inevitably be encountered, but resistance to force is near nonexistant.

1st rank is 2 lost damage hitting into resist 5. 10th rank is 20 lost damage hitting into, at worst, resist 25. You're going to argue that a smaller die size and force damage is a buff when it saves you 3-5 damage at best against a small subset of enemies and costs you 2-20 (plus weaknesses) against everything else?

Something isn't adding up, because it is starting to feel like these changes have been a sequence of missed opportunities, questionable buffs and very, very, debatable nerfs. It's getting frustrating because it doesn't feel consistent, nor particularly well thought out.

Well, it's not a pf2e patch without a nerf to magic, and a buff to martials. We're lucky psychic didn't end up getting one of its two slots locked to the conscious mind spell list.

Well, RIP psi magus then. Long live cleric magus (until impossible magic removes focus spellstrike entirely).

Let's see, with the d6 nerf IW is still the spell of choice for non-halfling magi that plan to use save spells. Halflings can leverage their +dex/+wis/+free statline to go into cleric for fire ray and/or withering grasp just fine. The choice is more competitive now I guess?

IW has the best damage type.

Fire ray forces movement or does bonus damage, but fire is a mediocre damage type.

Withering grasp does less up front damage with xd12s instead of 2xd6s but does some persistent damage and has a good typing in void with some built in immunity pierce.

You can also choose to be funny, select green faith as your deity, and pick up both focus spells at 4 and 8. Covers you cleanly when one is resisted/immune.

No idea why people convinced themselves that psychic was getting anything beyond very minor changes. Now we're going to get people all upset because they didn't get what they built up in their heads.

Perhaps it has something to do with all those other classes that got impactful modifications in the remaster.

Rogue archetype strong arm (+10 range)
Ranger archetype far shot (x2 range)

Has ANY NPC been built with counterspell? Or subtle spell?

They will be after you turn off enough of your gm's casters with silence 4.

Other casters lack the number of spells per day necessary to fight multiple severe encounters in a day

I just want to chime in to say this isn't true at all. 3 slot casters can handle days of 4+ severe+ encounters just fine.

As far as permanent items I like,

Math items:
Weapon (runes, doorknob)
Armor (runes, some cheap armor talisman)
Perception (darkvision goggles or eye slash)
Skill 1
Skill 2
Skill 3
Speed (tailwind wand and/or boots of bounding)

At very high level:
Apex
Permanent Flight

Playstyle based:
Doubling ring/blazons (dual wield)
Weapon siphons (dual wield, maybe melee magus)
Shield (take a guess)
Collar of the shifting spider (empty hand)

Generic:
Potion pouch (cheap haste)
Bulk boosters (lifting belt, ant haul wand)
Storage (bag of holding and common variants)
Misc wands (heroism, others)

I'm sure there are some I've forgotten that I'll feel silly about later but oh well.

And why isn't there a "Will-based Fireball" that tries to rip everybody's mind out or something? Exact same as Fireball, just Will save + mental damage? Or reduce the damage slightly but make it friendly-fire proof or the like. Not every Will-save spell needs to be single target or frighten or confuse. Just make people's heads explode for once!

This is phantasmal calamity, visions of danger, phantasmagoria and one or two others. Calamity especially is the usual 2 action, 500ft range, 30ft burst, +2d6 per rank.

A lot of items pretty useless. I know some swear by consumables, but past the low levels I've found consumables pretty useless. They just stack up and I never use them. Maybe healing potions are ok if you want to not waste spell power or there is a time push.

Most consumables (and permanent items) are worthless vendor trash, yeah. There are some good consumables though. Silversheen, bola shot, air walk scrolls until everyone has permanent flight, that one bard talisman whose name I can never remember. And the usual assortment of utility spell scrolls you'll cast once a campaign I guess.

I don't think you really need anecdotal evidence at all. A good party must at all times be able to handle as many types of extreme encounter as possible, be it a single +4 to mass mooks to waves of lesser encounters. Given that you often have less than a 50/50 at an enemy failing a save even against the low save of a major solo threat (assuming they even have a low save in the first place) your single target spells must be capable of having a significant effect on a passed save, or ignore saves entirely. Anything less is more likely to simply waste your turn and your slot.

The only thing you need to do is avoid the best save which is overwhelmingly fortitude once you reach the upper levels. By then though, you have slowing options other than the slow spell or better single target spells to cast.

While RK can help with this, it's often useless, counterproductive or pointless. Guessed the wrong knowledge type? Wasted. Enemy has a rarity tag? Probably gives you false info which is worse than a wasted action. Enemy save is easily guessed by looking at the token and/or having a basic description? Wasted.

You want to either be 0 dex or max dex. Wasting time on +1 or +2 dex just puts you at lower AC than plate while also having lower ref vs damaging effects while also taking those stat investments away from con or wis.

My basic plan for this build would be:

Half elf
+4 str +2 con +2 int +1 wis

01) General training (armor), nimble elf
02) force fang or expansive spellstrike (b route), psychic archetype
03) if your gm allows spell battery to work, natural ambition (familiar), otherwise your choice
04) emergency targe, psi casting
05) gloomseer, darkseer (if the ethnicity requirement doesn't bother you), otherwise your choice
06) psi development, reactive strike

At level 8 you need to determine if you get reactive strike off often enough that you need quick shield block for the bonus reaction or if you want ally block

Assuming that:
08a) bastion archetype, shield warden
09a) multitalented (alchemist)
10a) quick shield block, advanced alchemy

If not:
08b) sentinel archetype, steel skin (skill feat), standby spell
09b) multitalented (alchemist)
10b) mighty bulwark, advanced alchemy

11) elf step
12) expert casting, conflux focus
14) any alch archetype feat, witch dedication
16) basic and expert witch casting
18) conflux wellspring, master casting
20) master casting, supreme spellstrike

What this gets you is IW, 2x 1st-8th rank occult slots from psychic and witch, printing haste potions for your potion pouch to save on some money and make your life less miserable pre-20, and your choice of ally shield block plus bonus reaction or super bulwark plus standby spell for any spell you can use with expansive spellstrike. I only included the ancestry stuff I most recommend, pick whatever you like.

On the bastion route you will need to boost dex at some point to switch to medium armor or sacrifice witch to take sentinel. Personally, I prefer the sentinel route.

Since you're new, here's a short list of general feats:
Fleet
Toughness
Incredible initiative
Canny acumen (late game only)

I also find it ironic that so many players dismiss the threat that 8 level -2 creatures can pose to an unprepared party for the same action denial reasons that the players can learn how to pose a threat to higher level enemies. Maybe they are just used to spell casters being prepared to handle lots of lower level enemies and not as used to casters being prepared to help tackle higher level enemies, so the higher level ones tend to feel more dangerous.

Mass mooks can even be more challenging than solo threats at higher levels, assuming they have abilities that don't care so much about the level difference. However, they do run into a problem where they can be removed en masse by AoE incapacitation or by multiple AoE blast spells from a party with multiple casters. This is also the biggest threat a solo creature can provide, meaning some kind of AoE incapacitate that can threaten an immediate loss.

Putting meaningfulness aside, I'm more concerned with whether or not the combat is interesting, both as a player and as a gm, regardless of system.

I've long since found that, without a lot going against the party, moderates and below are simply unengaging from a combat execution perspective. They can be handled entirely on autopilot without a single daily resource being spent. That isn't to say that they can't be interesting or meaningful on a narrative level, but in that case there's no need to bother with the combat engine either.

Speaking purely as a player, the advice I see some people give about throwing in lows and such to make the players feel good is positively insulting. The ttrpg equivalent of "this meeting could have been an email."

I get your gm not doing much of anything weaker than severe. I've long since found moderate and weaker fights to be a waste of time as they rarely require any thought or resource expenditure. Unfortunate that they don't lean into mass mooks more often, but that's just how it goes sometimes.

My advice changes based on the level range you expect to play in.

1-4? Just don't play a caster. Sad to say, but the early game caster experience in pf2 is the worst I've had in any system I've played that's newer than AD&D.

5+? Well, since you don't want to be a one turn debuff bot, and since AoE nuker isn't particularly valuable for your group, there's not much left for you. AoE buffs with bless or bard. A few good single target damage spells that others have mentioned above. Illusions which have good use both in and out of combat. Maybe pester your gm for access to the good uncommon utility spells.

It is about as classical a fantasy trope as there can be that you bring a rogue to a dungeon to find traps and secret treasures. Without proficiency gating it takes a while for a rogue’s perception to be better than a wisdom caster. Clerics don’t need to be the trap finders.

And rogues don't need to be better than clerics or animists at detecting haunts, but that ship has sailed. Perception scaling should never have been class based in the first place.

Are there any haunts that are perception-gated? That feels real weird just, conceptually.

Not sure if rhetorical or not, but yes, many are gated.

I guess the ability to use it after a spell strike and ignore MAP is an advantage I had not thought of.

I guess in that particular niche, it is better than the other conflux spells.

I thought about Force Bolt, which is comparable damage-wise, but it is also ranged, which, in most cases, Force Fang is not.

I realize that the recharging spell strike is an advantage, but that is not really fair to use that as a comparison to other focus spells, because that is such a unique thing to the magus.

It just seems weak compared to other conflux spells. Perhaps I am just not weighing the disregarding of MAP as much as I should.

It really just is the guarenteed MAPless damage on top of your regular spellstrike. This does assume you are hitting the ideal of spellstriking nearly every round though. If you're in a bad situation like getting slowed while needing to move and recharge, then force fang isn't much good compared to one that lets you strike as well.

#4 always felt like niche protection for legendary perception classes given the proficiency gate on detecting hazards in the first place. Rogues with +1 wis at base have something like a 50/50 chance to detect on-level hazards before the +1/+2 from trap finder. This tracks pretty well with a +3 wis character having the baseline 60% success rate you see across most of pf2e.

#5 just means you should ignore those guides and instead make sure the party has minimum 15 different skills progressing to legendary. Sure, it can suck in the early levels before you get at least two expert skills on everyone, but that's the low level life. Granted, I've never found those guides' build recommendations worthwhile in the first place so I'm not surprised they weren't good for this.

#6 is indeed very tedious, especially tied back to #1-#3. Can't say I've ever seen that wide a gap between DC and modifier though.

I'm struggling to think of that many circumstance bonuses to damage besides the forceful or twin traits, though this is likely more my own ignorance than anything else, as those feats and buffs likely do exist.

They aren't too common. A Nethys search lists 23 feats and I know horse's support bonus adds a circ bonus in addition to those weapon traits.

I'm curious now. What runes are you taking if not astral? Or is it just something lile prioritizing flaming and decaying for the persistent crit damage? Or maybe frost for the extra weakness coverage?

For me, even aside from ghost touch coverage, I like the nearly unresisted damage and the option to combo with shining symbol to inflict a spirit weakness the whole party can exploit.

Based on what I've seen, a slashing/bludgeoning combo is your best bet, since slashing can take advantage of the most weaknesses and almost nothing is actually immune to bludgeoning. There's also no overlap in terms of immunities for those two, unlike Piercing/Slashing.

Yeah. That along with reach, trip and the bleed crit spec is what makes kusarigama such a good weapon.

I can't say I have had much issue with immunities in any system I've played. Just need to avoid the situation where the vast majority of things in the system or campaign are immune to something. Otherwise, you end up in the same situation poison is in, where nobody uses it that doesn't have explicit bypass to the immunity.

On the topic of oozes, I do think it's a little silly that their mere existence rewards players for just always picking a bludgeoning or versatile B weapon. These weapons aren't any worse than slashing or piercing weapons but also have fewer resistances/immunities even outside of oozes, so there's no reason not to pick one if you can. It's really only archers that lose out unless they're so fed up with it that they spend two feats on inventor for a modular innovation.

If you're set on a caster, I'd pick bard, but you really shouldn't need a 3rd spellcaster at all.

Do you know if you're playing with free archetype? I suspect not, but it would be good to know before giving any actual build advice.

If you use any action (including free actions and reactions) other than casting a spell directly after, you waste the benefits of the spellshape action.

Pretty clear that you can do any action after the spellshape if you don't mind losing the benefit. Which this technique doesn't.

Since activating this is just 3 free actions and a stride to position yourself, you can cast whatever you want on top of it.

May as well add a bloodline robe and a familiar for a pair of 1/day free focus point effects.

Extend Blood Magic is indeed categorized as both a Spellshape and a Focus Spell of its own. Which seems like a bug to begin with. It would be better as a Focus ability rather than a Focus Spell. It would still cost a Focus point to use, it just doesn't need to be classified as a spell. Neither do Monk stances like Clinging Shadows Stance.

There are actually a couple of other spellshape focus spells, so it's hard to call it a bug in that sense since it seems an intentional design decision.

Well, the trigger is the blood magic spell and you free cast it 3 separate times so that shouldn't be an issue. I don't recall blood magic being a 1/turn effect.

You seem to think I'm describing a single character and not a party's worth of synergies. Not sure how this wasn't obvious, but I'll try to spell it out for you.

The easiest sample party for this explanation is probably fighter, rogue, magus, bard. Bard one for all's the magus who fake out's for the fighter whose hit triggers the rogue. If the enemy moves, casts, stands from prone, attacks the rogue or if you use a shield, blah, blah, blah the fighter's reaction goes off.

And sure, let's add your beloved amp guidance to the bunch. The ranged characters are basically never using it, opting instead to add a larger circumstance bonus that stacks with a status bonus like lingering inspire and can boost not just failure to success, but success to crit success. The rogue could use it, since they might have prep up and/or fighter might miss. Fighter might use it if none of their other reactions come up. Would I consider not using a different reaction to hold for guidance? Not likely.

And with that, I hope I have clearly laid out this very simple piece of reaction management. You obviously don't need this specific party. Lots of classes have their own unique reactions, champ reaction is easily poached, most martials have reaction attack available in-class, I've even seen a late game character poach opportune backstab for fun. If you aren't getting your reactions off often, maybe invest in one that does.

And come on, I only described the fighter feats from level 2 onwards when the archetype comes up. Sudden charge goes in the level 1 slot of course. As a bonus, if you're having movement issues on charge-less classes like the monk, consider a mutagen collar. Free action a drakeheart mutagen on initiative and expend it for two strides.

gesalt wrote:

Fake out and one for all aid do go off just about every round.

So your Fighter, who is also a Gunslinger and a Swashbuckler on top of being a Psychic, is also finding the reactions to Aid allies while also Reactive Striking each round? How fascinating; I'd be very interested in seeing what your character's feats and turns look like.

gesalt wrote:

Champ reaction goes off any time somebody other than the user gets attacked in melee. Always if multiple characters take it.

That's very nice, except those reactions are not coming from the same character, are they? It appears we're blending the entire party now into this omni-reactive super-character. Are they all archetyping into the Psychic in addition to the Champion, Gunslinger, and Swashbuckler as well?

Don't be obtuse. I'm pointing out that every member of a party has better things to do than hold their reaction passively waiting for the moment a +1 will change something.

Melee characters are the only ones that remotely have an issue using their reaction(s) every turn since archers have fake out and non-int casters have one for all. Ironically, Psychic has their own unpoachable one for alls with the gathered lore subconscious mind or amp omni scan. And it's not particularly hard to set up situations for those melee characters to do something with their reaction offensively with strikes or defensively. (Side note: subconscious minds are also an entirely unpoachable feature of the class)

And yes, guidance is obviously an option. But it's a fallback option. It's what you use when you have nothing better to do, assuming it comes up in the first place.

Fake out and one for all aid do go off just about every round. Fake out doesn't even require action setup, just that a martial attacks. One for all also has the benefit of being usable on any non-combat check too, effectively taking the place of the aid exploration action. Even if the gm bumps up the DC, it just means you work in cooperative nature for a +4 to the check. If you're somehow never able to get critical aid on anything, then amp guidance becomes more valuable for the +1 over the status bonus you normally have going.

Champ reaction goes off any time somebody other than the user gets attacked in melee. Always if multiple characters take it. Opportune backstab goes off every time the not-rogue gets a hit. Reactive strike goes off any time an opponent tries to cast, stand from prone or move at all within weapon reach. That's putting aside other defensive reactions you can take too depending on your exact build(shields, nimble dodge and the like). Also reaction spells I guess. For the few good ones that exist.

If your enemies don't get hit or cast or like to stay prone after a trip/slam down/cast down/bola shot/wolf drag/[insert other tripping effect here] please let me know.

And yeah, amp guidance and amp message also exist. Amp message is pretty good since it guarentees a reaction attack.

I do miss flickmace and auto-prone crit spec though. Good times. I still use it on thaumaturge builds.

Fighters and rogues don't find use for amped Guidance because they already have common uses for their reaction. Those that don't are mentioned to consider it. They're more likely the beneficiary of guidance than the caster. It's competing with Shield, Warp Step, and Message.

Also this. I personally believe part of a good party and character build is making sure you get your reactions off as often as possible. Otherwise that's just action econ going to waste. Waiting on a maybe amp guidance instead of getting attacks off or actively buffing attacks that themselves might get upgraded off it anyway, just feels like a waste to me.

(long quote)

I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding here. My goal isn't to cap focus points. Not directly, anyway. The goal is a strong character with a good toolbox of options if possible. Adding a focus point and a focus spell with psychic progresses this goal.

Take the monk for example. Yes I want 3 focus points. I also want heaven's thunder for damage. I want stand still for a reaction attack. I might want wolf drag for auto prone. Multitalented psychic lets me get that point and also these other things I want by virtue of not taking up the feat slot. It lets me squeeze just a little bit more value out of the system.

Will I occasionally get value out of reaction guidance, or message or a psi shield or a 100ft teleport? Absolutely. I'm not saying they're useless or anything, not by a long shot. It's just a bonus on top of what I was already doing.

That sort of thing is also why I'm not remotely convinced it's overpowered. It's a common optimization choice, but it doesn't make or break any build. It's essentially free through multitalented and ancient elf and that's pretty much the price I'm willing to pay for it 90% of the time. If psychic weren't a multiclass dedication, it'd see far less use than it does.

A single focus spell, you say? Sounds like a count is in order! Here's my count of unpoachable focus spells in Pathfinder:

* 16 hex cantrips.

* 13 vessel spells.

* 12 greater revelation spells.

* 12 deeper and deepest psi cantrips, along with their amps.

* 5 qi spells.

* 4 composition spells.

* 4 devotion spells.

* 4 order spells.

* 2 additional hex spells, patron's puppet and phase familiar.

* 2 additional amps.

* 2 link spells, evolution surge and boost eidolon.

* And a partridge in a pear tree 1 conflux spell.

For a total of 77 unpoachable focus spells. Sounds pretty numerous to me!

The witch cantrips that don't give a point

Aside from that, yeah good catches. Completely forgot about some of those. Witch especially since the initial focus spell so rarely gets used. The other psi amps don't grant focus points though afaik.

Hold up: how are you still struggling to have a third Focus Point by level 9? Even with just the Champion archetype, you can take Devout Magic at level 4 for that extra Focus Point. In fact, even a Wizard, arguably the caster who has the hardest time getting that third Focus Point, can just take Blessed One and Advanced School Spell to have a full focus pool by level 8. I'm not really buying this narrative that the Psychic archetype does this necessary service to the community in providing an extra Focus Point.

Well if we're looking at that fighter for example: Vicious swing (if resist is ever a problem)+elf champ dedication at 2, LoH at 4, reaction at 6 and then if you go the auto-trip route slam down at 8 before tactical reflexes at 10/12 and greater slam at 10/12 or if you're looking to use berms later you take the shoving feats, etc. Psychic at 9 is just a free point.

Or rogue. Blessed one at 2, mercy at 4, gang up at 6, opportune backstab at 8, debilitations at 10, prep at 12 and you can keep going but hey, free psychic at 9 gets you that 3rd point.

Or bard. Elf Swashbuckler+reach spell at 2, one for all at 4, 6 is dirge, 8 is fortissimo and 9 gets me a 3rd point. Mostly to triple fortissimo or follow up an expired lingering with double fortissimo.

Or maybe monk. Student of perfection at 2, heavenseeker at 4 for two focus points. At 6 you have a choice between a 3rd focus spell, stand still or heaven's thunder and 8 adds wolf drag for the auto-trip. But, thanks to Psychic we also have the option of taking the point at 6 and retraining to something more useful later when we hit 9. You then have the option to pick up psi strikes and use the psi shield (non-focus vetsion) to trigger it for some extra damage to go with your 3 inner upheavals/ki strikes. Note: half-elf to ignore int/cha requirement

And most non-free archetype builds will end up doing something along these lines. Archer builds are really the only ones that might rush psychic I think. Magus and eldritch archers for IW and regular archers for reaction guidance, if they didn't opt for rogue sneak attack or ranger gravity weapon instead. Archers will generally take gunslinger eventually to access fake out. If you don't take it early, then that's what I'd put in the 9 slot.

As shown by the numerous examples of unpoachable spells you’ve just listed, they’re really not. Many focus spells cannot be poached, so why does it need to be open season for the Psychic’s amps? For that matter, what difference would it make to you if you only take the dedication for the focus point, when you could just pick Blessed One?

I wouldn't call one class's focus cantrips (which wouldn't even grant a focus point when poaching), and a single focus spell from another as "numerous" but sure.

And the reason I don't just take blessed one is simple. You can't take blessed one with level 9 multitalented or ancient elf's bonus feat. Not like I'm spending an even level class feat slot on it when there are other archetypes that tend to offer better build benefits over the whole archetype (example: champion on many melee fighter builds) or it's a good class feat level.

How do you get +3 and +4 aids with a single Dedication feat?

I would love to get it.

Not the single feat. You get them through swashbuckler's one for all and gunslinger's fake out.

It's why on magi my level 9 multitalented recommendation goes to gunslinger whenever it's available. Fake out at 10 means when your proficiency advances at level 11 you put a gauntlet bow on and fake out for +3 without any setup.

I do think it's worth pointing out as well that other classes do lock their own focus spells out of their MC archetype: the Animist archetype doesn't hand out its vessel spells, for instance, and probably for the best given how they can almost single-handedly make a build. Witches don't give out their hex cantrips either, so just because something's not as powerful as a slot spell doesn't mean it's automatically given out in an archetype. Even the Summoner archetype doesn't give out link spells, so the Psychic would by no means be the only class to gatekeep its focus spells if amps got taken out of the dedication.

Bard or bard archetype yeah. Both the inspire cantrip and lingering focus spell are both poachable after all.

Animist is really the exception when it comes to poaching. Witch offers the lesson feats to poach its focus spells, though not its cantrip. Summoner also allows poaching its focus cantrips and spells, with the sole exception of evolution surge. The other casters all make their early focus spells available as do all the martials with focus spells.

There's a difference between "good" and "the class's key asset and the reason they're a 2-slot, 6 HP/level caster," though. Poaching tempest surge from the Druid is generally not going to make you a better Druid, nor will poaching cackle make you a better Witch. A +2 status bonus that's guaranteed to bump up a check's degree of success as a reaction three times per encounter makes a major difference in my experience, more so than the aforementioned focus spells.

I can't say I've ever gotten any crazy mileage out of amp guidance. Mostly because of the +1 status bonus to attacks already on everyone and +3 and +4 aids stacking with it and being capable of bumping checks to crits. Yes, I do believe a +15-20% chance to hit/crit on a roll every turn is better than holding my reaction to bump a roll that missed by 1 or 2.

Maybe that's why I don't find it broken. I typically take psychic more for the focus point than the actual amp. Most martials? Extra LoH for an emergency heal or to heal between waves. Monk? Shield to proc psi strikes. Other casters? If not extra casts of their own focus spell, then message, actually. Force the reaction attack even if the enemy doesn't want to move or stand up.

The issue of giving out AMPs in a post remastered game is that all characters can use all their focus spells every encounter and they couldn’t when the psychic dedication was created. Characters couldn’t amped guidance 3 times every encounter. That remaster change really changes a lot about how the archetype works. Limiting amps to once an encounter outside of the base class really seems like the necessary restriction.

You can say this about literally every good poachable focus spell. And yet, they remain poachable in remaster material.

Are you sure you're not just terrified of the intense power of...a reaction for a +2 status bonus? +1 over the omnipresent inspire or bless but only to prevent a fail is nice but hardly worth worrying about. Especially when it has to compete with other reactions, like attacks or aid.

But sure, let's run with this notion regardless: already, Psychic Dedication is an extremely frequent pick on the Magus, so that already starts to satisfy that unreasonably high standard. On top of this, the dedication does get frequently picked just for amped guidance, and while that much is fine, the way focus spells work means that accessing that amp means anyone with the dedication alone can retroactively bump up degrees of success three times every encounter, which does make a significant impact.

Let's not get things mixed up. The psychic dedication itself could give literally nothing and magi would take it for the 6th level archetype feat because IW is the best in slot choice for spellstrike. Remove IW and they drop psychic entirely for cleric instead. The psychic dedication is icing on the cake, not a primary motivator by any means.

Past that, yes, it offers a good focus spell for everyone else, that's why people take it. Is it better than many level 2 feats? Yes, mostly because so few level 2 feats are ever worth taking over starting an archetype. If it's not psychic, it's blessed one, champion, spirit warrior, alchemist, oracle, etc, etc. That has more to do with level 2 feat quality being awful than psychic dedication. Again, it's a good choice, but not a broken one.

I liken it to the problem general feats have. Where everyone picks the same options, not because they're broken, but because everything else is bad.

Psy Dedication is that much better, and in a lot of ways, my SMN/Witch would have been better off if they dropped Witch and instead picked Psy and a Familiar Master or other familiar archetype. That's... a pretty damning observation of Psy's power level, imo.

It's an observation that a feat that gives a focus spell is better than a feat that gives a familiar even though both familiars and some focus spells are priced as level 1 feats.

Witch dedication would have been pretty competitive with psychic dedication in the early days of the game before the devs killed all the familiar tricks and then buffed refocusing.

It's just that psychic stands out from something like blessed one by being a multiclass archetype, and therefore being grabbed at 9 by every human or human-adopted character or at 2 by every elf that has nothing better to grab.

What continues to really confuse me about this whole thread is the idea that it's somehow broken instead of just being good. If it were broken it'd be on every character because it is powerful, and not just because it's the best value you can get for multitalented.

In a non-FA game, which is what I already said I was talking about, doing this requires spending the vast majrity of your feats in most APs just to get to 2 archetypes. Even if you're a human, and there's a lot of non-human characters out there.

No, kineticist aside you really should be on one or more archetypes depending on your class. This is even without using elf and/or human to pick up extra archetypes. Even with free archetype, you just take more archetype feats, rarely more in-class feats.

Even rogues which have some really good feats at 6+ has room to squeeze in a blessed one feat or two at 2 and 4 (and then humans take psychic at 9 to get that 3rd focus point).

find it strange that many of us seem to have collectively decided that the Psychic was always a weak class, when in practice I remember the Psychic being thought of as quite a decent and enjoyable caster premaster.

The only psychic build I ever saw get the time of day in optimization discussions was shatter mind spam. Outside of that it was only ever looked at for its archetype, much like swashbuckler or alchemist.

Setting Magus aside, the problem with it is that the Dedication is way out of whack with other Dedication feats. It gives you a LOT for a single feat, including the signature ability of the class.

Is it the signature ability of the class? Ultimately they're just focus spells. Unleash would be the better comparison point as a unique feature that can't be poached. That it's lackluster is unfortunate, but that doesn't change that it is a unique action locked to the class that can't be poached.

I gotta say, the trick magic item hate/dislike/whatever-this-is is definitely one of the funnier things to come out of this thread.

It's paizo's way. Take a piece of design space and print a bunch of really bad options and two or three good ones.

Still don't think I'd take a saurian spike though. By the time it's available you've been tricking a 5th rank see invis wand since level 11. And disappearance beats non sight senses anyway. Cool ability to have, just too expensive compared to alternatives and in a level range where you have lots of things to buy/upgrade.

I guess just looking at spellhearts it'd be rated highly, but that feels misleading when I can't see ever going out of my way to buy it, unlike maybe a jolt coil or the doorknob.

Given the ways paizo's added to bypass having a weapon made of a special material, it isn't really worth having a weapon made out of the stuff. Just grab some silver salve and cold iron transmuting ingots and you're done.

Honestly I'd never waste a feat on stunning blows since it never comes up when it would be relevant.

Fighter archetype does nothing for you. Consider each of those feats a waste. Rogue for sneak attacker or the student of perfection-> heavenseeker line would have been better. I'm also guessing you didn't take gravity weapon with that ranger archetype.

You're level 13 and you don't have greater striking runes yet? Fix that asap. Honestly, I'd pick a weapon and sell the other.

Get yourself up to three focus spells so you can inner upheaval 3 times a combat. More importantly, get inner upheaval from the level 1 qi spells feat.

How much math buffing/debuffing is your team doing? I can understand feeling like your accuracy isn't that good if you're relying only on your own numbers instead of benefiting from the slew of math altering abilities that should be getting thrown around.

Is just taking a lump sum and holding the cash not an option? If not, you can always choose 2x cold iron ingots (100gp each, the highest value for a common level 2 item) and immediately sell them back.

There's also the rat mentioned above or a goz mask.

Or you can have a carriage or hot air balloon for the novelty of it.

Psychic Dedication doesn't require an off-stat investment that's costly for Magus, and it gives you your third focus point in those two feats. Same number of feats, though.

Low rank occult slots tend to be better than divine slots too. Even if it's just for true strike or illusory object.

What's that? A new common occult unique spell? That robs an enemy of an action on a success and can repeat on a fail or worse? And it stacks with other forms of action denial? Why, you shouldn't have.

If only it had better than 15ft of range, but we'll take it.