Any source of airlessness plus the mask of uncanny breath can force full suffocation.
Battle Oracle spell immunity plus any buff with an immunity based cooldown like guidance.
Holy water is technically a valid choice for a thrower's bandolier.
Use an awful athletics check to intentionally critically fail to force open anything you lock up to make it harder to open.
It's been patched out, but stunning a delaying creature used to make them unable to take the free action to rejoin initiative (and it was obviously overridden by the gm anyway).
Isn't this easier to build as a thief rogue? They get sneak attack to unarmed now or you could just use gauntlets, etc.
0/4/2/2/1/0 attributes. Alchemist at 2, maybe eventually martial artist or spirit warrior to supplement the unarmed stuff. I dropped the series after book 2 so idk what else he eventually gets or what you can justify.
Perception table
Fighter with base +1 wis vs moderate
Level 01: +06 vs +07
Level 05: +12 (item +1) vs +12
Level 10: +19 vs +19
Level 15: +26 (item +2) vs +26
Level 20: +33 (item +3) vs +33
So that's on track.
What about vs high AC?
01: 18 vs 16 (half plate)
05: 24 vs 22 (full plate)
10: 29 vs 30
15: 37 vs 37
20: 45 vs 45
Would need adjusting in the earliest levels. Champion is 1 behind extreme.
Saves w/ +1 wis (scaling to +4) and bulwark (static +3) against moderate and low?
01: 07/05/04 vs 07/04 (no bulwark)
05: 12/12/11 vs 12/09
10: 21/18/18 vs 19/16
15: 27/26/25 vs 26/23
20: 34/32/33 vs 33/30
A little uneven in the 10-15 range, the numbers are fine at 09 and 16, but any save on the master track hews pretty close to moderate when the save isn't a primary stat. Key attribute master follows high, non-key attribute legendary is also high, key attribute legendary is actually also mostly high. It gets a couple levels at +1 until 20 where it's 1 behind extreme.
Hp?
01: 020 vs 021-019
05: 078 vs 078-072 (includes tough)
10: 158 vs 179-171
15: 233 vs 279-271
20: 328 vs 379-371
Alright, no salvaging this one.
Strikes vs high?
01: +09 vs +09
05: +16 vs +15
10: +23 vs +23
15: +30 vs +30
20: +38 vs +38
Uneven in places again, but largely hews to high. Non-fighter martial follows low.
How about spell dc from a full caster?
01: 17 vs 17
05: 21 vs 22
10: 29 vs 29
15: 36 vs 36
20: 45 vs 42
Little uneven. Big player spike at the very end with legendary, final attribute boost and apex.
Spell attacks?
01: 07 vs 09
05: 11 vs 14
10: 19 vs 21
15: 26 vs 28
20: 34 vs 34
Yeah, we already knew these weren't meant for players. Neat how things even out at the very end.
Overall pretty consistent. HP aside, I think you could run it as-is at levels 5-18 with only minor issues like spell attacks and martials with non-offense key stats, and nobody would be sad to see those issues go away.
Like I said in the other thread, you can probably just have the different classes use the monster building tables to replace attributes by telling you which tracks on which tables to follow as well as any changes mid progression if necessary.
Sure you'd need to account for a few things, like monster DC having item bonuses PCs aren't allowed to have or giving ever class an extra skill or two to replace extra trained int skills, but it should mostly be minor things. Worst case, you invent an extra table or two to cover things monsters don't care about.
Has the bonus of separating skills from attributes. You could just pick 3-6 for the high track and leave those extra trained skills on the low track while archetypes that boost skills let you move some of those lows to medium or high.
Attributeless is simple enough isn't it? Just make a set of tables like there is for monster building (or just use the same tables) and designate that each class follows whatever track per table. Just skip the attribute modifier table, obviously.
Yeah, I know just grabbing the followup benefit is good, was just wondering if there was other stuff since I'm not super aware of good grapple synergies since it was never worth it before now.
Even just in hellknight, there's also the level 14 feat that gives you a no-save fear 2 on stride to adjacent enemies which is also fantastic.
So with the hellfire dispatch giving us this little beauty:
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(flourish) You attempt to subdue a target with an attack and a follow-up grab. Make a melee Strike. If it hits and deals damage, you can attempt an Athletics check to Grapple the creature you hit. If you're wielding a flail or spiked chain, you can ignore Grapple's requirement that you have a hand free, and if you succeed at the Athletics check, you get a critical success instead. Both attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but the penalty doesn't increase until after you've made both of them.
grappling is no longer a joke at level 8+. So, what are some obscure ways to make this check more reliable, any special things that exploit restrained specifically, etc? Aside from just layering slow on top with debilitating shot or something to keep an enemy stuck with 1 action.
If you're that worried about treerazer why not just work with the rest of your party to make sure you're in a position to cheese him with quandry? Snarecrafter archetypes dealing damage and stunning with stunning snares and instant evisceration snares, kineticist archetypes dealing automatic damage with berms, throwing holy water at a familiar to splash him for 21 and negate regen, etc.
For example, triple kineticist archetype plus quandry is average 200ish automatic damage after resistance, (3×6×(9d6-20)) kills him in 3-4 quandries even through some regen, just make sure to position the berms and the party so he can't just fly away after losing an action to break the quandry. It's not glamorous, but it'll get the job done.
Why are you so hung up on your stats? You're going to end on +7 int/cha (max casting with apex), +5 dex (max AC for non-plate), +4 con, +4 wis (base 12, boost at 5, 10, 15). And as a caster you need to blow general and/or archetype feats to access heavy armor which is a total waste unless you're going into champion archetype which needs cha anyway unless you get it through aiuvarin multitalented. Skipping your casting stat only gets you +1 con or wis in the end which is pretty pointless.
Use imperial sorc, make force barrage signature and then pick up all the generically good spells for if you get bored or are forced out of being the force missile guy. I'd say use bard or something but iirc spore war has mental immunity all over the place which weakens the occult list.
Buy and maintain multiple wands of shardstorm instead of trying to buy wands/scrolls of actually good spells.
Then just spend your feats and free archetype slots on generic good stuff. One for all, bard cantrips, etc.
Begin the campaign with a party buff, strong reaction, 1/day print a haste potion for your melee. Your base slots should suffice for force barrage as long as you switch to lower level slots for cleanup or something.
End on master fort, reflex, will and perception. Spend your archetype slots to add more bonus damage to your spells via energy fusion. If you use spirit damage spells, you can proc weakness if any of your allies use shining symbols. As you level you print more haste potions for your martials to use with potion patches.
If you don't care about perception, just replace gunslinger with more casting
A single action no-limit cantrip that uses the skill associated with that tradition's casting to Aid would actually be a great way to close the gap between cha casters that can poach one for all and everyone else.
I don't think shields are all that worthwhile in the first place. They're too much of a burden on action economy until you have quick shield block and paragon guard.
If damage mitigation/sustain is your concern the party can just build the melee to have champion archetype for LoH and the reaction or blessed one for just LoH.
It's a bit like if you came to play PF2 and wanted to play a "mechanics accurate" version fo Ultra Instinct Goku and being disappointed that you couldn't make a hand to hand fighter that absolutely wrecked everything and no one had a chance to beat. That's obviously an extreme example, but I feel it still illustrates the point.
That's more than a little disingenuous. It's not unreasonable to expect that something that was possible in the setting for any given character would continue to be possible. Sure, the method or exact mechanics might change, or take time to be published, but you don't expect things to just stop existing or become impossible if you aren't a demigod.
But yeah, I'll never understand why some people try to shove a given character into a system rather than building a character around the system's mechanics.
Also, 'setting agnostic' will kill 90% of ancestry feats. Without a setting, there's no reason for elven curved blades to be elven, for dwarves to know stonecutting, for gnomes to cast primal innate spells. You'll just be left with purely biological feats.
You don't actually need any justification for those things to be in the feat buckets of certain ancestries and not others. Just like how there's no internal setting justification for why certain feats are in some classes' feat buckets and not others.
There's so much in pf2e that I never interact with because it's so weak that I hope any late-stage unchained thing has them outright disregard all the printed vendor trash, useless feats and archetypes, etc and print useful and/or mechanically interesting things even if they risk something being too strong or complex. Not a popular stance I'm sure, but I've lost interest in new releases since they hardly impact play.
For a pf3e...I think I'd like them to commit harder (or more obviously) to being a game. I've heard a lot of complaints about verisimilitude over the years when it's long been apparent to me that the fiction/flavor is more or less divorced from the mechanics on the player side. I can't say I've seen those complaints from something like Lancer.
Take the Battle Oracle archetype with Oracular Warning (or Whispers of Weakness) to get curseound 1+. Then spam Sure Strike + Bespell Strikes every turn to increase your (crit) hit chances! Base class is up to you, but Fighter/Gunslinger is always good (and obviously no Barbarian).
Sure Strike is on a 10 minute CD. That nerf happened quite a while ago.
You're wrong. :-)
That's why I suggested Battle Oracle getting cursebound 1+:
The next time you make an attack roll before the end of your turn, roll it twice and use the better result. The attack ignores circumstance penalties to the attack roll and any flat check required due to the target being concealed or hidden. You are then temporarily immune to sure strike for 10 minutes.
Cursebound 1 Spells have an easier time wounding you. You gain weakness 2 to any damage dealt by a spell. Any immunity or resistance you have to spells is suppressed. This applies only to spells, not other magical abilities.
Battle Oracles cannot gain immunity to spells at all while cursebound, so they are unaffected by "cooldown" immunities of spells like Guidance and Sure Strike.
So I stand by my recommendation: Get the Battle Oracle archetype and one of the cursebound abilities (Oracular Warning is amazing for action economy, Whispers of Weakness good to learn weaknesses and getting a bonus to attacks) and then spam Sure Strike.
I stand well and truly corrected. That is a hilarious interaction and I'll definitely have to consider going for it.
Take the Battle Oracle archetype with Oracular Warning (or Whispers of Weakness) to get curseound 1+. Then spam Sure Strike + Bespell Strikes every turn to increase your (crit) hit chances! Base class is up to you, but Fighter/Gunslinger is always good (and obviously no Barbarian).
Sure Strike is on a 10 minute CD. That nerf happened quite a while ago.
I'm looking for a character that can be in melee a lot or cast spells a lot, choosing which to do as circumstances dictate.
I don't think this exists. Typically even full casters will only cast a spell or two before transitioning to cantripping or focus spells until the fight ends. Even a gish like the magus will maybe open with a spell before transitioning to the usual spellstrike rotation.
It's not really about casting a lot of attacking a lot. You'll simply open with an impactful daily resource or two before moving to unlimited options.
You don't understand that Imaginary Weapon and Exemplar cleary stepped outside the normal range of damage expectations that they had established?
For me it was as a distinct change where they went off the rails.
It's funny because fire ray's damage is almost identical in damage. When you factor in the secondary damage or a provoked reaction attack it's actually slightly better until you get to maximum de/buffing.
Psychic had better archetype slots and IW had a better damage type though. It could also be entered with int which was more convenient for stats.
Thinking on it now....Magus would have made for a cool archetype you could have added to any spell casting class. But would have been too difficult to balance due to the variety of class features different spell casters have with a need to balance.
Eldritch Archer is right there you know. As usual for pf2e, it's better on a martial than a caster.
You could also just add the magus archetype to anyone, but I assume you mean a full version and not just a 1/fight ability.
... I don't think anyone is underestimating versatility here. If anything the opposite, time and time again we see "versatile" become just a polite way to call something bad.
For all that I keep seeing the whole "versatility is power" thing get repeated, I've mostly found it to be very shallow. What you want isn't some mediocre spread of abilities, it's to be really good at one thing and have a toolbox of always accessible abilities to supplement it when the main thing doesn't work out so you aren't totally useless.
Unfortunately I've always found pf2e druid to be kinda mediocre. Wild shape is too weak and action inefficient to be taken seriously, prep casting is weak in this edition, the primal list is missing a lot of good spells and can't even poach back some of the good ones like divine usually can, etc, etc.
You'll only really use cleric at range so you can take advantage of high starting int with something like halfling to get +4 dex, +3 int, +2 wis, +1 con or elf +4 dex, +3 int, +2 wis, +0 con.
In melee you're almost always going to be doing ancient elf (champion) with +4 str, +2 con, +2 cha, +1 wis so you can take advantage of plate, fire ray and champ reaction with force fang at 2 for the 3rd focus point.
Not just fighter and rogue. You'd need to drag down just about every martial class that isn't investigator or inventor. Fighter and rogue might be the best, but swashbuckler remains among the worst.
Considering the new damage combination rules was it really that much of a jump to add the silver-fire of moonbeam to any other effect that adds an independent instance of fire damage? Spellstrike with a flaming weapon perhaps?
Maybe a level 9+ monk with metal strikes using the rain of embers stance with flaming handwraps? Or the blazing streak feat if you want to keep it all common.
Or how about blazing armory providing a flaming weapon that also deals fire weapon damage combined with silver salve, plate in metal, transmuting ingot, etc if you want a very silly example.
S'pose that i have resistance to fire 5 and I take a strike that does 2 fire and 2 silver-fire damage. do i resist all of that or just 2?
What is doing " silver fire" damage and how is that separate from the "fire" damage on it? Stuff doesn't do "silver damage" typically: silver is a trait on the attack.
Moonbeam is the silver-fire damage you are looking for.
...the need to actually get to the enemy (and not death spiral afterwards, costing your party actions in subsequent turns) make sending a pick user, say, less appealing
This. Ranged has generally smaller damage dice sizes because it has generally significant defensive advantages. Bumping up dice size and making reload easier...yeah that would be absolutely horrible to give to NPC opponents. Who wants to play a fantasy game where the enemy constantly shoots-and-moves well out of range of melee attacks and 30' spells.
It'd be a good excuse to give spells actual range again outside of artillery spells like fireball. Not like melee have a hard time closing the gap either since you can already run around with 50+ speed. What's the shooter going to do when they run out of meat shields and the party runs 150 feet towards them?
TBH it feels like you just want all Gunslingers to always get a free action each round to reload. Which would just make them OP.
You seem to be under the impression that gunslingers are on par with archers right now. This would be incorrect. Gunslingers have an extremely rigid action rotation just to be inferior to a well built archer.
A free reload each turn wouldn't change this, but it'd improve their quality of life a little bit. It'd basically replace the otherwise mandatory risky reload by guaranteeing you a second attack each round without risky reload's fail effect.
That's if you want both, if only one is enough there is more deity choices thankfully.
Otherwise all Magi would be either hippies or weebs lol
You do typically want two focus spells. Not only do you need a 3rd focus spell to cap your focus points, but fire isn't as reliable a damage type as physical was with IW. Your choices then are force fang, winter bolt or withering grasp.
I would take withering grasp because winter bolt doesn't double its base damage on a crit and enemies can just detonate the xd12 saveless blast on someone, and that one does double on a crit.
Green faith also works by taking advanced dogma (expanded domain initiate) at 8. That's also the route you'd take if you wanted withering grasp (decay domain).
You understand that none of those things require removing focus spellstriking right?
If they print focus spells worth using, why would you use them on archetype focus spells?
If cascade and abilities tied to it are worth using, the need to spellstrike every round goes away.
You only have so many actions available to you. If you need to add extra limits to some options to make some others worth using, maybe they weren't good in the first place.
My point is that the things the fighter has to do to make themselves work are easier and less prone to disruption.
Yes but that's kinda the point of the class: low complexity, no rotations needed, just a box o' tricks. If that's what you want for playstyle, I would not try and shoehorn a Magus into it, I would just play a fighter.
PF2E is not - as far as I can tell - about rewarding complex builds and class mechanics with bigger damage. The reward you get for playing a gish is that you get to play a gish, not that some easter egg gish build will let you be as good as the specialist at their specialty.
Now there's no wrong way to play here; if someone wants to be the fighter (role) with their Magus (class), have at it! But to me, the observation that the spellstriking Magus doesn't do fighter as well as fighter, doesn't convince me spellstrike needs an upgrade.
Nobody's really asking for a spellstrike upgrade. We're arguing for an action economy improvement (to maybe hit those numbers more often) and against the spellstrike nerf that so many people seem to want to implement by removing focus spellstrikes.
I do appreciate how quickly we went from "focus spellstriking is broken" to "you're being unfair to the magus, surely it can do better than this."
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"At this level" is a potential issue though, IMO. Magus is a strongly front-loaded class. Changing the entire spellstrike mechanic to be easier because Magus damage falls off compared to Fighter at level 12+ just makes it that much more of a beast at L1-5, maybe even L1-10. If a class starts out relatively strong and gets relatively weaker at higher levels, and you see this as an issue, doesn't it make sense to argue for a mid-level feat or mid-level mechanical upgrade? Rather than making a change that increases dpr for Ls 1-20?
It's not like fighter can't outdo magus this early either. Fire ray magus isn't going to outdo a double slicer with mutagen and weapon siphons (side note, you absolutely should be running these things on a magus too). That early on, you just don't have the de/buff numbers to really make that single strike sing like you can later and ranked spells don't have the utility effects to make them really impactful either.
Treerazor's not all that tough though? He has a giant easily exploited weakness, he's not fast enough to threaten anything that wants to kite him with more than 1 action per round, his spell list sucks, he only has the most basic reactive strike and doesn't even disrupt on a success, only one reaction at all. Most you need to worry about is his 2 action sicken 3.
As for haste being better on fighter than magus, that goes for any martial and magus really. Magus might scale very well with math de/buffs to amp up it's crit rate, but they scale very poorly with quicken, except for melee movement and their level 20 feat to recharge for free. Now, if spellstrike were a single action metamagic-like thing you could use that turned your next strike into a spellstrike, it'd be much better, as you could use the quicken to make the strike, and then have an action open for other things. Unfortunately, not scaling as well with such a common buff (potion patch + quickness potion if not the haste spell), is just something else for the class to deal with.
Conclusion: Spellstriking with cantrip won't require recharge
This accomplishes...what? The demo above uses a focus spell and still falls behind. Cantrip spellstrike itself doesn't do enough damage to compete without force fang's free damage to follow up. That's also why any other recharge mechanisms wouldn't matter anyway.
Generally, though there is outliers like Champion and, formerly, Psychic.
As gesalt said, Champion kind of gives a lot of things a lot of classes might want. It's not really a niche.
A niche is something like Blessed One that focuses on a single ability (lay on hands), or Medic (being really good at battle medicine).
Those work with any class, they aren't "fixes" for your class' design being flawed.
It's more that the best archetypes tend to hit multiple niches, instead of being limited to one.
Champ fixes MADness, AC, sustain and reaction problems in one tidy package instead of needing two or three more focused archetypes like sentinel and blessed one. Take something like thaumaturge. D8, MAD, medium armor, mediocre reaction choices. Champ resolves all of this while leaving you free to pick whichever implements you want. An upgrade in every way over the base chassis.
Gunslinger provides a ranged reaction, some damage and maybe fixes perception on ranged builds. Take something like bow monk. Inner upheaval x3 is cool, but let's add 2x 2d4+2 (scaling to 3d4+3 or 4d4 with ooze) persistent + splash damage with munitions crafter, gauntlet bow fake out to aid allies and boost perception to master at 12. Bonus points if you keep archetyping and do the 9-10 rogue-sneak attack to keep stacking damage. In this way you make up for not having your modifier to damage and missing out on stuff like energy mutagen. Better than anything monk can manage on its own.
The magus is no different from a thaumaturge or monk. It's base chassis is deficient in several areas and it archetypes to fix them. Would it be great if it didn't need to? Sure, but that's never going to be the case. You'd need to give them a spammable attack focus spell so they don't need to archetype for damage, give them plate so they don't archetype for AC, give them a good ranged reaction so they don't archetype for that, and so on and so forth. Even then, unless every level has a great class feat to take, they're still going to archetype eventually just to add even more on top.
Gang, OP's asking for help w/ precision damage immunity, not for a cheat code for the AP's Weaknesses, a.k.a. spoilers.
It's not really a spoiler when the AP's whole premise is walking into treerazer's spooky demon forest. And since you can't beat immunity, you may as well exploit every other opening the AP advertises.
Yes but the question here is "why are people always recommending this?"
Same reason it's so easy to recommend champ archetype on a melee character. It is, in many cases, a direct upgrade and better than whatever your class chassis or feats would give you. Same reason a lot of archetypes are recommended, they provide the class something it lacks that improves it over the things the class offers natively.
Champ with its armor, focus spell(s) and good reaction. Gunslinger to shore up ranged damage with free ammo and a good ranged reaction. Basically anything on casters because so many of their class feats are terrible. Any of the archetypes that boost saves or perception. There's not a class in this game (aside from maybe kineticist) that isn't better off with an archetype or two.
Just so happens that magus hits every checkbox. Archetyping provides better armor, better focus spells, save boost, good reactions, etc, etc, etc.
Thinking about it, yeah. Astral and holy. Just make sure you bring plenty of fire mutagens to stock in your shifting spider collar. At your level, you should be able to afford plenty of the moderate ones, but if you're strapped for cash a giant stack of lesser mutagens will serve just as well to set the forest monsters on fire.
Oh right. If you have an alchemist (or archetype) in the party, see if they can get the cold iron blanch recipe. If not, maybe pack a few cold iron ingots.
I am playing a Rogue currently. I am sure I will be encountering creatures with immunity to precision damage, what should I do? I am a Thief Racket.
First, cry deeply. After that, just make sure you're doing basic melee damage boosting. I think you mentioned you were doing spore war right? Make sure your weapon runes are flaming and holy and you'll mostly be fine.
(Also STR gets you shockingly little return on investment with higher level forms because you only get anything if you can get your attack bonus higher than the form's bonus, and its actually impossible to do that at a lot of levels. Giving Druid a +2 bonus that it almost never actually qualifies for is one of the stranger design choices here.)
From what I remember, str investment only gets you level 4 with animal form and levels 10 and 12 with plant form.
I'm going to propose Arcane Cascade increasing cantrip damage again, since that would give spellstriking with cantrips past the first round a big boost - if we increase it to be on-par with Fire Ray that makes the intended spellstrike gameplan of 'slotted spell - cantrip - cantrip if battle lasts that long' more attractive than triple focus spells
The end result of this is archetyping for a free action focus spell to enable immediate arcane cascade and begin spellstriking. Witch's cackle is the best one to access assuming you'll be allowed to cast it for no effect. Otherwise, you'll archetype cleric for oathkeeper's insignia off the duty domain.
Ends up as a straight buff as you get both focus spell damage and still get to recharge twice with force fang.
The collar holds one mutagen. Energy mutagen picks damage type on creation. I wish you luck on getting that to line up and not waste more actions than one.
That's right. And in any environment where you can expect to fight the same or similar enemies you swap for the rest of the day. Ditto having any advance knowledge. Mutagens are cheap enough that you can carry multiples of every type without issue, though more realistically you'll be carrying mostly cold and fire since elec and acid weaknesses are extremely rare. A quick Nethys search says there are 11 with acid weakness, 48 with electric, 94 cold and 214 fire. You can see why there might not be much of an issue hitting elemental weaknesses with just a flaming weapon and a cold or electric mutagen.
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Given how many times it has been shown that the Magus's DPR is nowhere near the top, I'm not sure this statement can be made out of honest ignorance by someone following this conversation. If you have findings to support this claim, I'd be interested in seeing them.
Oh, it's feasable enough for magus to hit top DPR. They scale so well with math de/buffs after all. A magus firing off focus spellstrikes with all the math behind them is a menace that has the highest average damage output in the game the last I did the math. That's the caveat though, you need to have a party that's capable of providing those math adjustments. Inspire/bless, dirge/fear, off guard and aid. To make the magus shine you need to be able to apply these readily and often. On its own and without party support, it's still good, but nowhere what it can look like with so much of a math swing to setup crits. Fortunately, it's easy to get low resource or resourceless math adjustments and then pay in more for synesthesia, heroism, true strike/target, etc, etc to get very high crit rates. This is regardless of enemy level or even extreme vs high AC.
Damage is a solved issue for the magus. The only thing they need to work on is action economy and there are several solutions you can build or buy into for that if it isn't being solved by an ally.
Given that magus, fearless has access to a lot of tool the fighter doesn't have (namely magic and casting items) to enhance their abilities, or exploit weaknesses, and can overtake them occasionally by spending ressources on spellstrike I think it's fine for it to be slightly below outside of it's big novas.
But it does need more options outside of just spellstrike cantrips
And so we're back to arguing that they should be a sub-par martial with awful action economy that's weaker than a featless, itemless fighter outside of 4 spells a day. It's not like magus has good feats. You take what? 2 or 3 magus feats level 1-20? You spend the rest of the time in archetypes.
Access to casting items is a joke because everyone under the sun takes trick magic item anyway. Or, you know, have the caster in the party activate it. Assuming you don't grab a casting archetype for fun, of course.
Weakness exploitation is a joke. It doesn't come up often enough to matter, is usually triggered just as easily by runes or energy mutagen when it does and just got nerfed by the second errata change. That, and all the methods of inflicting manually still exist. Notice how little that came up before? It's because it generally wasn't worth the effort.
