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John Godek III wrote:
Such awesome art! Can't wait for these!

If you can't be a dragon with a cool hat what is even the point.


Vasyazx wrote:
kaid wrote:
Grankless wrote:
I'm so fascinated by the extent to which people will just straight make up things about Pharasma so they can get mad about them. Do any Forgotten Realms gods get this treatment? Probably Mystra?
If I recall correctly kelemvor who is their arbiter of the dead also has similar issues. Worse because instead of go find a nice place in the bone yard to sleep option for staunch atheists they stick them in a wall to scream for all eternity.
It mostly Myrkul(who created it first place) and AO(who forced kelemvor to keep it )fault rather then Kelemvor own

I still remember a lot of forum threads hating on kelemvor for not getting rid of it anyway. Still in a universe where actual gods exist it is not super shocking that such beings are crappy to puny mortals unwilling to worship them. At least pharasma is generally a pretty neutral arbiter in the forgotten realms the people with that domain before kelemvor were actively malicious.


Grankless wrote:
I'm so fascinated by the extent to which people will just straight make up things about Pharasma so they can get mad about them. Do any Forgotten Realms gods get this treatment? Probably Mystra?

If I recall correctly kelemvor who is their arbiter of the dead also has similar issues. Worse because instead of go find a nice place in the bone yard to sleep option for staunch atheists they stick them in a wall to scream for all eternity.


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SuperBidi wrote:
Exactly what YuriP says: You won't break the game by being too generous. But you can break it by not being generous enough. So don't hesitate to give items, even a lot, and let your players have fun with them. It's better to be too generous and adjust downward if you feel the PCs are too strong than the other way around.

That is kinda my experience that it is way easier to break things by being too stingy vs too generous. PF2e really wants you to have a certain amount of stuff and things get squirrely if you don't have it.


I just went and check on archives again all of the animal while not stellar for a feat is a solid upgrade over basic survival for subsisting. A normal role to subsist you have to get a crit success to feed two people.

All of the animal basically makes it so there is no roll if you have a large animal you will get enough food for two people.

The biggest issue with it is the forager feat is just all around better. it does effectively the same thing just better and eliminates some of the negative options on the survival roll as the worst you can do is success.


Powers128 wrote:

I think there's some gods who don't see her as an ally. I imagine someone like Groteus hates her guts quite a lot, although it's hard to pin down his goals exactly. If he wants existence to end, it makes sense for him to be aligned against Pharasma.

Maybe rovugug and the aforementioned sentient black hole too. Anyone who advocates for the complete destruction of all things.

I don't recall if there exists deities within the maelstrom but those guys too

I don't know that Groteus hates anybody. He knows in the end Pharasma will die and he will get to watch it happen. He doesn't need to do anything he is just there watching ants scurry around knowing that nothing the ants do really matters.


Claxon wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
How are you preserving 400 lb of meat for more than 48 hours, much less transporting it around on an adventure?

Bag of holding and a preserving rune.

There are probably some other options out there.

And to someone else's point. When you get that kind of meat, you stop adventuring for a day and make pemmican to preserve it. If survival is really an issue.

The bigger issue is that feat saying you only have enough food to feed 2 people once.

May make more sense if you tie the 2 people to the size level. So if you take a medium sized prey you get enough for 2 if you take a large enough for 4 huge 6.

Also one thing to note is sure amount of meat is useful but not all meat is the same. Take moose for example if all you do is eat moose meat you will eventually starve because it has basically 0 fat. There are parts of the moose that are fatty but it is significantly less. You can use moose meat to bulk up other things but if all you have is moose meat you are going to be very full eating moose steak/jerky/soup all day every day for a while and slowly withering away while doing it.


R3st8 wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Huh? "Brought back to life by Pharasma" is so top-of-the-list of things Rahadoum isn't on board with that it has two books about it.
There is no need to bring back anything just leave the dead spirits in Rahadoum after all they did not consent to have their souls taken.

Eh at least their souls are not being stuck in a wall to scream for all eternity. Honestly being given the choice of being judged and going on or choosing not to and just sleeping in the boneyard until creation ends seems a pretty reasonable option. It is not like the people in rahadoum don't understands gods literally exist in that setting. They understand when they die something is going to happen and having the choice to simply have an eternal rest seems like no bad thing.


ElementalofCuteness wrote:
Wait Treasure Vault is getting Remastered!?

Makes sense for it to get a remaster. It is a big book of gear so when they need to reprint pretty easy lift compared to other remaster books to go through and get everything especially the alchemy stuff up to remaster standards.


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GameDesignerDM wrote:
keftiu wrote:
It doesn't hurt that we've still got an entire Tian Xia's worth of plot hooks unharvested for the future - and with luck, Arcadia will join it soon!
And Casmaron! Myth-Speaker should give us a taste of that, hopefully.

Mythkeeper has a pretty good casmaron entry that covers pretty well everything we currently know about it which was a lot more than I had ever seen.


keftiu wrote:
It doesn't hurt that we've still got an entire Tian Xia's worth of plot hooks unharvested for the future - and with luck, Arcadia will join it soon!

Arcadia at least has some pretty fleshed out info with the gazetteer in the guns and gears book. It is not as beefy as the mwangi or impossible lands books but it gave us way more and better info than we had previously had and solid maps/layouts of arcadia.


Deriven Firelion wrote:
What is Gods of War?

Kratos intensifies!!!!! I guess we know who is replacing gorum.


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I find it interesting that Pathfinder's essentially following its predecessor's path of not making giants themselves a playable ancestry (Starfinder 1e being a unique exception), but a giant-lite one with weird skin: goliaths have their lithoderms (bony lumps on the skin that when combined with their gray and black skin tones gave them a literally craggy appearance, something that was disappointingly neglected as the editions rolled on to make them more conventionally attractive <_<) and now jotunborn will have their "weavings" with silk literally embroidered into their skin.

The starfinder setting it is a bit easier to deal with very big players but I can see them being a bit more hesitant for this to be a thing but with them finally letting large ancestries in howl of the wild I am not too surprised that jotunborn is a thing now. Given all the magic around and giants being not uncommon in a ton of areas some hybrids was bound to show up sooner or later.


Squark wrote:
When I signed up for GenCon and was asked to choose a complimentary book for volunteering to run 6 sessions, it was just listed as "Upcoming Pathfinder Rulebook" or the like.

Could be SF2e as well as I think that probably winds up in/around gencon in 2025. But the more generic name even when they are pretty sure what should be release is just covering their butts in case some major shipping disruption happens.


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Master Han Del of the Web wrote:
That would also give a lot more room to flesh out the state Numeria is in post-Iron Gods, which has got to be a wild place.

Also post war of the immortals. God knows what kind of stuff is happening when shards of god armor/blood rain down on a place as messed up as numeria.


Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
There's got to be some disadvantages to being a merfolk. I think one of my first purchases as a merfolk will be walking cauldron filled with water that can follow me around!

There are also plenty of ways of grabbing an archetype that will grant some cantrip or option to generate water if it becomes an issue. Choosing to be a mermaid on land is something the player needs to accept will require choosing some things to make that reasonable but the free mobility feats makes sense. If you are on land to begin with there probably was some reason so you are either naturally gifted or your people hooked you up so you could perform your quest.


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Master Han Del of the Web wrote:
I do imagine there's a place for a more robust set of rules for achieving the right flavor for Numeria. The vibe of Numeria was definitely not just 'Starfinder on Golarion'. Traits for things like salvaged tech, relevant archetypes, Numerian-ized monsters, etc.

Yes having SF2e means the stuff is there and balanced so fleshing out the numeria aspect of interacting with tech that is thousands of years old and of suspect levels of repair and stuff that surrounds it. You could much more easily do a smaller lost omen book like the high helm book to cover numeria if you don't have to put in the entire amount of gear from SF2e. You can focus more on the setting and player options for interacting with the stuff and how to acquire it and what kind of state the gear is in.


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JiCi wrote:
Well, if Starfnder 2E is supposed to be 100% compatible with P2E, we... won't need a Tech Guide. Any item from SF2E book could be used for P2E in Numeria.

Yup at this point it would almost be strange if we don't get some numeria stuff once SF2e is out because all the rules would be available to make it work and compatible.


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VerBeeker wrote:

Oh, we’re gonna get a look at Mendev and Sarkoris as well, color me intrigued.

Also what is this thing that Lepidstadt made? It sounds halfway between a radio, a computer and a Fortunetelling machine.

A haunted radio fortuentelling machine sounds about right for lepidstadt.


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Brinebeast wrote:
The Shifty Mongoose wrote:

...Has anyone else wondered aloud if Cobyslarni was ever in a relationship with the Oliphaunt of Jandelay?

It probably couldn't last, if it happened.
Well, I have now shipped them as Olislarni. Someone needs to start writing the fanfic!

Where the junk in the trunk may just be a castle picked up and offered as a bouquet.


Archives of nethys has pure rules no lore and is kept up to date with errata.


moosher12 wrote:
So I'm pretty sure it's a given that the Mechanic will have both an augmentation subclass and a drone subclass. I hope they get a subclass that emphasizes boosting armor, shields, and weapons.

I suspect the armor/shield/weapon boost class will be inventors which honestly fits pretty well when you take inventors up into starfinder setting.


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gameipedia wrote:
TheTownsend wrote:

The convergence of a tribal diaspora, relearning their ancient faith in conjured beasts.

Wanderers of other realms astride a colossal beast of impenetrable wisdom and resource.
Theater Kids.
"I dunno man, I think we're in a little in over our heads here."
"Nonsense, we are the lorebearers of the greatest empire to ever--"
"That is a mile-long elephant! From another dimension! That kid just summoned a rabbit-snake, and everybody worshiped it! We write poetry!"
Tbf they are also like, training to be spys and s@*#, so like, not totally out of depth, also like, the bard-ier ones are gonna love the campfire story guys, 100%

I am pretty sure magical theater kids seeing a miles long elephant/headmaster are going to swoon.


Et cetera et cetera wrote:
A lot of things in the remaster were renamed due to the OGL situation. The Horsemen of Apocalypse are clearly figures from mythology meaning that there isn't a legal reason to change the name. But the rename happened at around the same time as a lot of other renames. Why the rename?

Well probably chose that because the riders are may not be men nor are they necessarily riding horses. This way it opens up options without really changing the motif that much.


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Blue_frog wrote:

Hmm, tox didn't lose out. Being able to affect those who were previously immune to poison looks like a huge buff.

I'm no alchemist expert so I can't comment on anything else, but the toxicologist in our group was moved to tears by this change.

That was my thought too. The fact that tox now can affect basically every thing with their stuff is a huge buff compared to before when there were wide swaths of common enemy types you could not use any of your normal tools on.


ElementalofCuteness wrote:
Update to Dragon Summoner.

Yes with the changes to dragons the dragon summoner needs a lot of change and or remaster as does a lot from the secrets of magic book due to the changes from the remaster.


ElementalofCuteness wrote:
Martial Necromancer Class Archetype - Graveknight. If the Battle Harbinger can do it Necvromancer can also you trade spells for martial capabilities and become bonded, not so bad.

The necro class really does seem like it could benefit from some kind of war priest/battle harbinger class archetype for a death knight sort of thing but also one for a undead companion type build along the lines of druids with their pet option.

I think a lot of necros would love an option to gain a undead companion either so they have one main pet to go along with all the random thrall summoning.

I think the war priest model should work pretty fine. Fighty enough to justify being in melee give them better armor probably medium at the cost of some casting potency. Honestly be neat if they had access to a skeletal horse companion so you could be a necro night on a skeleton mount. Your spell casting is going to be less powerful but between your melee and your mount it likely would be fine without being OP. With probably capping out at master spell casting they gain thrall generation at a slower rate and capping out with less per cast than a normal necro.


Rowenstin wrote:
I think the consensus is the second option, you need to pop two thralls.

That would be my read. Burning up a thrall is a component of each of those actions.


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WatersLethe wrote:
Archer skeleton thralls scratches a certain itch for me, that's for sure.

This is probably the lowest hanging fruit to fix it. After the level where flying becomes more common be able to summon one of your thralls per summon has some basic ranged attack move that lets you do your basic thrall attack at some reasonable range.


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kwodo wrote:
yeah in general these kinds of feats seem pointless

Not useless it is nice if you are in a hurry but necros with their ability to eat thralls makes it less desirable than other classes versions.


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Tridus wrote:

Yeah the dirge feels a lot like "we want you to have a spellbook but we don't want to call it a spellbook."

I think it'd be simpler for everyone to just call it a spellbook, since it basically works like one anyway.

I am going to theme mine as my necromancer etching the spells on my own bones. Best way to hide it from people who would not accept a necromancer.


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Squark wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
First turns are important, but having to spend part or all of the first round setting up isn't uncommon either. Activating stances, drawing weapons, casting important buff spells, moving into range. It's not that strange.
The problem is that the Necromancer is looking at double or triple the setup of other casters.

I think this is offset at least a bit by the fact that the setup is also basically an attack. Having a move and a couple attacks is a pretty normal first round for a lot of classes and this is also setting up a couple thralls to work with. Now if the cantrip only summoned thralls with no other effect it would be problematic for sure.

It is going to be interesting to see how it plays out. I am guessing a lot of thralls are going to get smacked down by third attacks but every thrall getting smacked down is one attack that is not potentially hitting a party member of literally anything else more useful. I think it will be interesting to see in play how it is on paper I think it should work but it is weird enough I will need to see how it plays out.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Being able to start the cone from any square within 30 feet and aim it however you like solves a lot of the fundamental problems with cone spells.

That and one of the spells if it hits another thrall with that cone can make friendlies safe from the cone. This allows for a lot of bank shots to either maximize enemies without worrying about wrecking your own team. Very curious to see these in play they seem good.


ElementalofCuteness wrote:
Shall we say Necromancers aren't Necromancers but Soulmancers/Spiritmancer then?

I prefer flesh magician.


I think the play test should be interesting to shake out how far they can lean into the focus spells. I think they are adding so many to figure out what works and what does not and what people like or don't like.

I think once they shake out how that plays they can figure out if necros remain 2 slot casters or maybe get bumped to 3. Right now it is in a position to really force necros to use necro toys to really shake those out adding more spells is a known thing and easy enough change to make for release.


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Zoken44 wrote:

as for permenant undead interactions, I would also throw in an undead familiar, like the elemental familiar the Kineticist gets.

The skulking around graveyards and stuff seems... like it would put a huge burden on the player to get even one minion/thrall.

As for the occult spell list... have you read that? Just looking through the cantrips and first level spells you have Void warp, grim tendrils, command, Enfeeble, SUMMON UNDEAD, spirit link, Bane, and Phantom Pain. You can't make a necromantic spell list with that?

Undead familiars are already available in the undead book and I suspect that will be an option for live just a matter of no reason to test it right now as the stuff is already in game. I also sort of expect one of the grim fascinations to be an undead animal companion. Given their thrall deployment plus attack being one action it seems like an animal companion type pet would work pretty well with the necromancer power set.


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Zoken44 wrote:

I personally would like a few more Grave Cantrips, gated behind feats of course. Maybe something like "Ghoulish Dismissal" You dismiss a thrall, which then wails or violently tears itself apart, or otherwise destroys itself in a disturbing way, allowing you to make an intimidation check against an adjacent enemy, without the -4 penalty for not sharing a language and you may chose, when you cast the cantrip, if it has the auditory or visual or both traits.

I agree that their default non-moving state is best.

I also was hoping there would be some more grave cantrips. Some other boss a thrall around thing that does not eat a focus point. Could also be variant create thrall that is a two action cantrip that summons thralls + some kind of other effect or summons more thralls than the one action version and lets you attack with two thralls with MAP changing after the attacks.


Invictus Fatum wrote:

I'm very excited for the Necromancer's interactions with Thralls and believe this is a great way to get the feel of a horde with the mechanical balance of PF2e.

I'll start off by listing my personal Pros/Cons on how I think this is implemented and will give more as I do real world playtests and hope others will add to the discussion as well.

Pros:
- Easy to deploy (love that I could send out 3 on turn one at level one if I want)

- Interactions with focus spells are awesome and very flavorful. I want my minions to be expendable

- Battlefield control is the Necromancer's vibe and these are a great way to do it.

- Bone Spear!

- Life Tap!

- I'm going to stop there...most of the feats look really fun

Cons:
- I really want to be able to move them for both flavor and mechanic. - Proposed Solution - Perhaps under "Create Thrall" add a line that gives you a choice to either create one or move an existing one with both options ending in said thrall making an attack

- There is no way to get rid of unwanted Thralls if you don't have the right focus spell and have already used the Consume Thrall ability in the last 10 minutes. - Potential Solution - Give the necromancer an action that is not on a cooldown and doesn't use a focus point that destroys a thrall for a minor benefit.

- What do I do with my thralls when I'm out of focus points?

- Would like a little more variety on the saves they can target, fortitude is often pretty problematic (mathematically speaking)

Questions:
- While I get that they always fail saves and are hit by attacks, I'd love some clarification on how checks against their DCs works. The big one is that Tumble Through is an untrained activity and so I'm wondering if it is the intension for enemies to auto-succeed on these, or if they have some form of DC. If their stats are simply listed as 0, then mechanically the DC would be 10 (10+modifier), but not sure if that is the intention.

- Dead Weight is a cool ability, but why would a creature try to "escape"...

That is an excellent question about dead weight. The only reason I can think to try to escape is if you are using one of the later feat thralls like perfect thrall but that comes online so late it seems pointless.

Dead weight is not useless as it still likely costs them an action but given how trivial it is to smite the thrall off you just seems like it isn't doing what it seems to want to do.


Blave wrote:
kaid wrote:
You are going to have minimum 2 focus points off the jump and if you are a human maybe 3 because even their level 1 feats are packed with focus spells.
Where's the second focus spell coming from? You only start with one focus spell ans one point unless I'm missing something. Human can get you to two, but that seems to be the maximum for level 1.

I think I was confusing something in the description in demi plane as giving a focus. If you go human pretty easy to get to 2 focus points the one you are given and then using human to grab a second one.

That said if you are a human you very likely have 2 focus at level one and at level 2 3 focus points. Given how many of their feats are focus spells you are going to have max focus points very quickly regardless of your starting race.


Blave wrote:
kaid wrote:
You are going to have minimum 2 focus points off the jump and if you are a human maybe 3 because even their level 1 feats are packed with focus spells.
Where's the second focus spell coming from? You only start with one focus spell ans one point unless I'm missing something. Human can get you to two, but that seems to be the maximum for level 1.

I think I was confusing the cantrip as giving a focus. Was working with demi plane. If you go human pretty easy to get to 2 focus points the one you are given and then using human to grab a second one.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Necromancer is going to be a real pain to automate in Foundry.

Honestly I think the bookkeeping aspect is probably the reasons the thralls are stationary unless acted upon by some specific command/spell. If you had the option to move them all around at will the amount of time/energy to deal with them would be problematic.

You could probably automate it like dropping terrain objects. Mostly just there doing nothing but can be acted upon to do specific things.


Squiggit wrote:

The class might lose steam in long combats, but normal encounters should be fine. If you're casing a focus spell every round (and Consume a thrall somewhere in there) you don't run into an issue until round five and that's a pretty rare combat.

At a glance, I kind of wish they had a few more sustainable options at low level, and that their melee options came online a bit sooner and/or had a bit more juice... but this is a hype thread and the playtest will start soon enough.

I love what I'm seeing from both classes at a glance though, the ideas are very cool.

Honestly for a low level caster their sustainability at low levels seems really good. You are going to have minimum 2 focus points off the jump and if you are a human maybe 3 because even their level 1 feats are packed with focus spells.

It is going to be interesting to see how good it feels to have a boatload of focus spells by mid levels but early levels I think necros are very sustainable.


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Zoken44 wrote:

So far from what I've seen, there's only two things I think the Necromancer absolutely needs. Something like "Generate Lesser thrall", or a chaveat to create thrall. What I'm thinking of here is the Kineticists Base Kinesis. A bunch of mostly flavorful low impact things that any Kineticist can do that makes them feel more like a kineticist. Having the ability to have a thrall that can move slowly, carry things, perform rudimentary tasks, etc, that don't take much focus from you, but once a stressful situations, like combat, starts (when you roll initiative) or during exploration, the lesser thrall collapses.

Also, a class feat that grants a familiar. Despite being HEAVILY Grave spell focused, it lacks one of the most common ways casters regain focus points outside of refocusing. I'm not even talking about making this a base class feature, but an optional level one feat, to compete with the extra useful undead lore, or dipping into one of the other subclasses.

Don't get me wrong, I'm LOVING the Necromancer. and I understand others smarter than me may have thoughts on balance that are way more useful, but these are things I noticed and wanted.

Necros have an option that lets them blow up a thrall to get a focus point back once every 10 minutes. That is way better than what a familiar can do for less cost feat wise. Still having a lil undead familiar would make a ton of sense so adding a baseline necro familiar feat would make total sense.


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Unicore wrote:

At higher levels, a lot of creatures have auras and AoE attacks they were going to use anyway. I don't think the Thralls left around on the battlefield are going to be that big of an issue in most encounters. It will be much more of a parlor trick.

The annoying thing about this class is going to be the exploration mode delays/ sending them in on every trap/arguing with players about how many will reasonably be available at the start of an encounter. I am hoping the "doesn't really move" will be enough of a deterrent to players wanting to start encounters with more than 1 or 2 of them.

Honestly a necro using minions to find/remove traps is pretty on brand for a necro. I sort of suspect thralls probably won't carry over from one fight to another. It is likely a case where you just spend your first turn dredging some up and given they do an attack when summoned it is not an unreasonable opening round.


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Zoken44 wrote:
Still, popping three bodies to stand in the way, and potentially do something else the next round, that would make the enemy spend damage attacking them instead of the team. Even if it's their last attack of the round, that's an action they lost.

That is the interesting thing. Enemies can pop them easily but it takes actions to pop the thralls so do you try to pop them to clear them out or ignore them. If you pop them you are spending resources to do it but if you don't then there are bombs just looming around you ticking away until the necro pops them.

Very like the initial launch of diablo 4 just about anything can pop your skellies but replacing them is a snap of your fingers so it works out to be fairly tanky just through ablative minions.


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Perpdepog wrote:
Easl wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:
Necromancer is an int-based, prepared, occult caster with 2 slots per rank. At level 1 they get a focus cantrip called Create Thrall that, as 1 action, makes a thrall w/in 30ft that lasts a minute. Thralls are creatures with 1 hit point that are always hit by attacks and always fail saving throws. They have no actions, but can provide flanking (some feats/focus spells let you move thralls or have them attack with your spell attack modifier). You can destroy your thralls to do various things...
Wow that doesn't sound like a minion master at all. It sounds more like a bank-resources-before-the-fight-then-spend-them-during concept. Personally I'm okay with that, but it's probably not the concept that a lot of the folks clamoring for a necromancer wanted.
This is the complaint I'm most expecting to see once the playtest drops, honestly. People are going to hear necromancer, jump to a game like Diablo II in their heads, and then either be frustrated they can't have giant blobs of guys, or have to wait a long time to have a mechanic that simulates them.

Honestly the thrall system seems way more diablo necro than I was expecting they would let it. You can pop out a lot of thralls but they are super squishy and totally disposable. I would bet there will be feats that let you boss a blob of them around so it probably will scratch that itch pretty well.


moosher12 wrote:
R3st8 wrote:

Wonderful! After Animist and Exemplar, we now have Necromancer. The class department in this game is improving at lightning speed; let's just hope it becomes common.

That said, it would probably have been better if they had made each of the schools into their own classes from the beginning. This would allow them to focus on what makes each class great.

I'd probably expect Necromancer to be Uncommon due to its questionable fit in some tables, the way Gunslinger would be Uncommon.

But as for your second point. I really want to see the Mesmerist come back as a dedicated Prepared Occultist spellcaster.

Oh yeah necromancer for sure is going to be minimum uncommon possibly rare just due to the squick factor and just really not being appropriate for all campaigns/groups.

That said come on necromancers being out yer dead!


nicholas storm wrote:
Easl wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
The whole problem of the Battle Harbinger is that you can build a Magus or Summoner to just be a superior Battle Harbinger with everything the Battle Harbinger brings to the table but better. At least, some classes, like the Investigator, have unique features that make them appropriate choices in some circumstances. But for the Battle Harbinger, unless you play a game that never goes to 7, there are strictly superior choices.

For a 1-10 game, 1-7 is most of the play space. You're talking about telling a player to play for months with a concept they don't want to get up to a somewhat better instantiation of the concept they do want. In a game that may only go months.

Both may be better overall choices, but nobody wanting a divine gish is going to take Magus, and nobody wanting to spam 4+ aura spells per game day is going to get that from Summoner until at least level 6. Even then, the Summoner pays a high 'spell opportunity cost' to play that way, while a BH doesn't.

At low levels a regular warpriest kicks the ass out of the battle harbinger. Battle harbinger is just a poorly implemented idea.

I am curious given the timing of these things if the battle harbinger was designed before the remaster stuff got finalized. The battle harbinger with the premaster warpriest probably looks like a much stronger comparison. Warpriests got a lot of love in the remaster and really fits the niche of fighty cleric well now.


Eh going from D4 to D6 for normal attacks and then D8 on fatal plus the examplar damage boosts I think would still be a fun viable character. Bonking the crap out of people with my mystical frying pan calls to me.


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Perses13 wrote:

The main use case I see for having a whip is reach to stay out of Reactive Strike range (or nonlethaling enemies), but bigger enemies with reach are more common the higher level you get.

As for whether anyone uses d4 in endgame. My level 15 halfling fighter's weapon of choice is a humble frying pan (d4 weapon with fatal d8). It is definitely not the most optimal fighter weapon choice, but on the other hand its incredibly fun to be hitting people with a frying pan.

I am very tempted to make a halfling exemplar and have an icon frying pan.

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