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shroudb wrote:
MongrelHorde wrote:
Greg.Everham wrote:
I'm prone to calling Natural Ambition a top tier ancestry feat, as well.

I think Sky Blue is a fair rating. I had the opposite opinion on 1st and 2nd level Barbarian Feats.

I think some classes REAALLLY want those class feats (Alchemist) and others are pretty meh. I think Rogue is pretty meh, Sorc, Wizard, and Barbarian are the ones I remember thinking I should Multi class with these classes because their early feats felt underwhelming.

Also, you only get benefit from Sudden Charge if you needed that extra Stride increment.

For alchemist, only bomber really wants it.

If you have a second class feat at the start quick bomber is useful for all alchemists. The action economy boost helps a lot and all alchemists will throw some bombs if just for debuffing.


Gaterie wrote:
Michael Alves wrote:
Just let your best stealth guy go, see trap, back, everyone goes that, disarm, he goes, see trolls, back, everyone kil trolls, he goes, see dragon, back, everyone buff up.

Fun fact: the system doesn't allow that.

If the scout is stealthy, he won't see the trap. This is how exploration mode works: either you're stealthy, either you look at traps. Do you know how the rules work?

This is the same for save: RAW you don't know the weak save of a creature. You can usually see what's his strong save, but not his weak save. eg: why is the weak save of a bear Ref instead of Will? Why is the weakest save of a lich fort instead of Ref? Etc. Usually, to guess the strong save is easy (bears are strong, liches are wise), but you can't guess what's the lowest one.

... And this is the same for a lot of your points: yes, using houserules favoring the casters, and using a very specific wizard build as your definition of "casters" (how can a cleric prepare blast in his highest slot?), while discarding fighters "because they are outliers" and every martial build, and considering the blasts always hit every opponents, and... Then yes: at some point, you've created enough biases and casters = martial.

In actual play, casters < martials.

well technically thats not fully correct. At level 15 you can get legendary sneak in which you are always considered sneaking unless you choose not to be. So in exploration mode you gain the benefits of stealthy when doing other stuff.


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That is one thing that seems to be hard to wrap peoples brains around but in this version a succeeded save still generally means you took some effect. Generally half damage + some lesser or shorter duration debuff. So even if a lower level debuff or movement spell gets saved against it generally is still having an effect.

So unless you are fighting something so high that they are crit succeeding on their saves even low level debuffs are going to be pretty worth throwing out there.


One thing I noticed is they really need to make sure they pay attention to bombs secondary effects. They don't seem to be adding the splash damage to the main target and seem to be ignoring the secondary effects like flat footed on hit from bottled lightning.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

This looks very solid, as guidelines go. In almost all regards it keeps monsters within the 'PC range' on things they should be within that range on, which works out rather nicely (it matches well with my analysis here, for example with only Extreme Skills exceeding PC Skill modifiers by more than a point or so).

My only real complaint is that, absent some sort of magic, special thing, or 'template' in PF1 terms NPCs of PC Ancestries should never have High or Extreme Ability Scores. PCs max out at 'Moderate' by that table, which is fine taken in isolation, but makes for issues if random Human enemy #6 is somehow vastly better than that.

That's something I really wish Paizo had put in the guidelines, and even more hope they apply to such enemies going forward. It's mechanically almost irrelevant (raw stat numbers almost never actually come up), but vitally important flavor-wise to not make the PCs feel incompetent in terms of raw stats.

It would be really good if they added some guidelines like this to the NPC section and adjusted the Class Roadmaps as appropriate. Otherwise, going by the guidelines, all NPC Bards built as monsters have Cha +7 at 10th level when PCs can't achieve that until 20th, which feels really bad and unfair in a way that the rest of these rules don't.

I think one thing is those stats are likely adding in bonuses similar to what players get via gear. At level 10 you probably have items giving you a +2 for a lot of your performance/bard type abilities.


Tender Tendrils wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:
BellyBeard wrote:
This seems like a case of the GM treating the enemies identically, and not role-playing them, if it happens every time the enemies outnumber you, as you say. Not all enemies will use optimal tactics, there is a reason a half a page was dedicated to talking about thinking with the creature's mindset, senses, and worldview. An orc warrior darting in and out would probably be seen as cowardly in orc society.

I agree. Those orcish tactics feel like hive-mind behavior. One mind is in total control of the orcs' tactics so that they battle with perfect coordination and don't care about the glory of any one individual. The perfect coordination allows unrealistic tactics.

Alyran wrote:
Why are 8 apparently combat-worthy enemies all moving on the same initiative? That seems built to OTK people. Splitting that into 2 or 3 groups makes it much more fair.
The same initiative for all orcs is for the convenience of the GM. He does not have to remember the individual order of initiative among the orcs. However, this breaks realism and reinforces the hive-mind behaviour

Having one initiative for multiple enemies also recreates some of the balance issues caused by fighting one single enemy - it robs the orcs of tactical flexibility, and gives players a pretty huge advantage if the one initiative rolled for all enemies is a low one.

I eventually switched from rolling one initiative for all enemies, then to doing it in groups, then to every individual enemy with colour coded bases (though the pawns themselves actually have colour indicators on them to differentiate otherwise identical pawns). I tend to be very unlucky when rolling initiative, and encounters became very easy for the players when they could eliminate half of the monsters before any of the monsters got to do anything.

Seperate initiatives makes things fairer and more interesting for both sides, and also keeps players a lot more engaged (as instead of it being them checking out until...

At least doing some sub groups of orcs for initiative seems sensible. Sure sometimes you could get the murder squad going but if your party beats their init then most if not all of the orcs could be dead before the opponents can even act. It also helps keep the flow of the game going better than all the players go and then the GM does 24 moves in a row. Thats going to get pretty boring for everybody involved.


Hiruma Kai wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

Realistically, what GM is going to run a combat via "the monsters attack once and run away, using their superior speeds"?

If this was a PvP game, the OP's concern would be reasonable, but it decidedly is not.

Well, they might put the enemies at the top of a sheer 90 foot cliff from the players though, pelting them with longbows. Or have flying enemies, like a Grig. CR 1 flying 30 foot enemy with a ranged 30 foot attack. Its certainly not going to fly into melee with the dwarf to deal 1d4-2 damage. Staying 30 feet directly above the dwarf seems like a good plan.

I mean, in such a scenario, the dwarf simply loses without a ranged attack.

Although it pretty much should be the case of if a slow dwarf is being attacked by somebody who is both much faster AND has a ranged weapon that dwarf really should be in serious trouble. Its taking an axe to a bow fight the elf can dance around basically pretending he is a horse archer. That kind of running ranged attack harassment has proven VERY effective in history.

Still if you are a slow dwarf if you chose not to have a good ranged attack then you are just asking to get mauled. A dwarf has plenty of carrying capacity generally so you should have some kind of ranged attack like a crossbow or a bow. Plus if the fight does not start to far out there are debuffs/alchemy tools that can help diminish the speed of your target so if you can tag them with it you could bring them down into the fight.


Saros Palanthios wrote:
Mellack wrote:
That would seem counter-intuitive. A fully armed and armored small creature has a total bulk of just 3? Even if that gnome is wearing plate (bulk 4) has a longsword (bulk 1), artisan's tools (bulk 2) and an adventurers pack (bulk 1 or 2)? So why is it harder for that gnome to carry all his stuff than it is for a halfling to come along and pick up the gnome, equipment and all? That just doesn't follow for me.
It's a lot harder to carry a bunch of loose sticks than the same sticks tied together in a bundle. Think of a kitted-out character as big bundle of gear.

This I think is pretty much the way to view it. The wolf does not care how many swords you have and they are not bulky to the wolf because it is not trying to manipulate/carry them. It is carrying you and you are carrying the weapons. Your character is in effect a large carrying bag as far as the mount is concerned. It is one of the weird things about bulk it is not exactly weight it is weight + how awkward something is to carry. So when you are mounted you are the awkward thing the animal is carrying not all the stuff that is on you. Now if you were encumbered when you were mounting that should have an impact on the mount because you are overloaded but the rule of thumb carrying people bulk rules seem to assume fully geared up person in a battlefield situation so presumably your arms/armor as well.


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Dex to damage on throwing weapons seems like much less of an issue than what PF1 had. Only one of the three rogue rackets even has dex to damage and the amount of finesse thrown weapons is tiny and of that group their damage is low. The one rogue racket that allows dex to damage is specifically so they can dump str. I really can't see how allowing that to work on a tiny subset of weapons can unbalance anything.


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Cyouni wrote:
Luke Styer wrote:

We recently converted my home game from 1e to 2E, and one player has a Paladin of Serenrae who is missing his old ability to Detecf Evil at will. He recently multi classes to Sorcerer and picked up Divine Lance as a Cantrip. Since good damage only harms evil aligned creatures, he’s taken to shooting creatures with Divine Lance as a sort of poor man’s Detect Evil.

Putting aside the first time he did it, when he actually talked someone into consenting, which seems sort of crazy, but the target was sure he wasn’t evil, do folks agree that doing this unprovoked to a non-combatant is an evil act?

Think of it this way. You're going to put a gun to each person's head, and pull the trigger. You have no idea whether the shot is going to be a blank or not.

How many people would let you do this?
How many people would think that this scenario is crazy?

That's basically going all salem witch trial on people. I am going to shoot this at you and if it does not kill you then you are freed. I honestly could see hell knights going this route but few other good characters would use it in this fashion.


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Also it should be noted that the duration is 1 minute and at the end of your turn you vanish and reappear again. Any melee opponent trying to attack somebody with blink active is going to be burning a lot of actions to keep having to reenter range with them. Also flanking a blinking opponent is going to be REALLY hard to maintain.


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in theory it could be ancient prophecies that had already come to pass and you are just trying to understand how it interacted with the effect.


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Given it looks like one of the hell knight archetypes is a plate wearing spell caster clearly it looks like there will be stuff available for those who want to try to build a tank mage. It seems doable and pretty well balanced for the feat cost to get some extra protection for a good chunk of your leveling range.

I like the fact it's not a have to but if its something you want to do it is supported pretty well.


James Jacobs wrote:
Of course, one of the most INTERESTING "side effects" of undead now having constitutions and being affected by mind-affecting stuff and not having so many immunities baked into the role is that it's a lot easier now to have PC undead...

I figured this was probably one of the main reasons to do it. With starfinder there are a few plant/undeadish options for players and just making it so there is a stat there however low is a lot easier to allow down the road as a player option.


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It is one of the reasons they are slamming out the second bestiary so fast. There are gaps even in a big book like the first one there is only so much room.


Nyerkh wrote:

I expected as much, since Paizo's been good at taking the playtests into account, but I'm still curious as to what the changes are.

And with it being the class I'm looking forward to the lost of those three, I'm impatient enough that I'll to get a preview whenever I can.

Anyway, going by the PF2 character creation streams, this should be fun.

I am really curious about the changes as well. It does seem like there was a good sanity pass on the differences between the wis key stat and int keystat options. Int when it basically got all the wis stuff at full +int mod was crazy better. More skills and the total ability to dump wis without any danger.

Now it looks like the int path gives you some scaling boost to the wis save and wis related stuff but not direct 1 for 1 which is a lot better way of doing it. Now hopefully the wis option gets some scaling + skill points to offset one of the other major benefits of going int.

Wis in the playtest just gave up WAAAY too much for too little gain.


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Ventnor wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:

Actually now that I think about it, I think there might be another kasatha pic with eyebrows..

...Anyway, I know its because artists do artists things, but I'm kinda dismayed at kasatha art increasingly having more human like traits when one of reasons why I found kasatha cool in first place was things that made them more alien in first place

But yeah, otherwise no complaint here, her backstory IS awesome.

The eyes might not necessarily be the ones she was born with. Remember, this is Starfinder. Having your eyes ripped out and replaced with technologically-enhanced ocular organs is totally a thing that happens.

Also as a biohacker no telling what shennigans she is gotten up to in self modification over the years.


graystone wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:

The rules seem to suggest that you can fit 70 days of rations in a single belt pouch. Is this a typo?

No, belt pouches can only hold 4 L, so 28 days rations. It can also hold 4 javelins, 4 sets of winter clothes, 4 pup tents, 4 bucklers or 4 Sawtooth Saber...

I find it more interesting that a whole halfling can fit in my backpack with 1 bulk to spare even if the backpack in being worn by another halfling...

Honestly that is not too surprising. My frame pack could easily hold a halfling with room to spare.


VerBeeker wrote:
So I have a question in the stats for Izalguun they are said to be large creatures, yet they apparently stand as tall as the Rito(Espraksa) which are considered Medium? Is that a typo or am I missing something? Because if they're the same height when they stand on their back legs and when all fours they seem like they wouldn't be a large creature in my opinion.

The size sometimes is not pure height but height and bulk. There are some pretty tall critters that are not size large because they don't weight much of anything. I think this is a case of borderline height and a lot bulkier and in the quadrupedal stance they take up more space.


Jessica Redekop wrote:
The All-Seeing Orb wrote:
Luke Spencer wrote:
I would also like to know about the Cephalume, are they an aqautic species?
** spoiler omitted **

They are native to a liquid environment, but not specifically water, so they aren't conventionally aquatic in the sense that aquatic implies *water.* This distinction of Liquid vs Water is ultimately the reason I went with No Breath on the creature, as opposed to Water Breathing.

Answering the spirit of your question, though, yes, they are accustomed to using their swim speeds to navigate their native liquid environment.

PS Hello I'm Jess I wrote the Cephalume and the Spectra :>

I just started reading the new alien archive and I had basically that same question. I must have missed it specifying no breath but it does make sense.


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Metaphysician wrote:

Stamina is basically Paizo going "No, the ubiquitous Wand of Cure Light Wounds is not how the setting is supposed to be". So they gave every class the ability to refresh itself between encounters when given a chance to catch their breath.

Also, as a premise, your assumption flounders on that, in Starfinder? Damage *absolutely* scales with level. . . and in practice, it did back in Pathfinder, too. If PCs don't gain more HP/SP as they level, they *will die*.

I kinda prefer the stamina system to the super OP medicine skill in 2nd edition. Gives you a portion of your health you can get back a reasonable number of times per day with short rests but there is also the actual health pool that is for more serious longer lasting wounds that is harder to heal.

In 2nd edition you are basically nearly assumed to be full health after every major rest period due to how good medicine is. Which is nice but some of the mechanics of it come off feeling weird.

Basically starfinder and pathfinder 2nd were two different ways of working around the cure light wound wand issues of pathfinder 1st edition.


Xenocrat wrote:
It's not worth a spell known that you have to keep heightening regularly to keep relevant. Buy armor.

Well for a bard in theory you could just flag mage armor as your spontaneous heightened spell but still kind of a waste.


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Generally a monk would be a bit less because traditionally not every monk is doing shield FU combat style. I am curious if there are going to be any tweaks down the line because I am not sure they envisioned every monk to be sporting tower shields.

That said even without the shield monks are designed to be a close match to champion for AC. Both are legendary at their respective speciality.


Just for clarity.
Elven chain is a chain shirt made of mithral (page 579) that glitters in even the faintest light. It grants a +2 item bonus to AC and has no check penalty.

Created by elven artisans employing ancient crafting techniques, elven chain is exceptionally quiet. Unlike other chain shirts—even other mithral chain shirts—elven chain does not have the noisy trait. This suit of armor can be etched with runes like any other mithral chain shirt.

So basically it is a chain mail shirt with a +2 item bonus on it. You can put runes on to it but the only armor improvement you could do on it would be to etch a +3 armor rune. Adding a +1 or +2 ac rune would have no effect.


Lanathar wrote:
K1 wrote:

1) As for elven chain mail, it's a chainmail which give 2 more armor ( and can be modded as any other else chainmail ).

So 7 vs 6 (plate)
or 10 vs 9, if you consider the runes

2) About the shield, the point is that a champion is a class meant to be a protector, and it sucks the fact a fighter multiclassing champion could do a better job.

If I wanted to go not shield based I would have gone fighter, with a multiclass depends my gameplay.

The fighter +2 hit is currently not comparable with any other stuff.

And talking about tanking, the fighter has better traits for a better overall, and by hitting lvl 12 you will always have your shield raised. so 1 extra action per round.

You won't hit legendary in defense, which will probably give a champion, or a monk, the right to be the frontline.

3) Finally, about champion's reaction, you need:

1) Ally in range
2) Enemy in range ( enemy next to you if you are a paladin ).

Ranged shot?
Can't use reaction.

Aoe from a caster?
Can't use reaction.

You are the target?
Can't use the reaction.

There are, imho, way too many blind spots for that reaction.

You are utterly wrong about Elven chain . It gives +2 armour.

It doesn’t give 2 “more” armour. It gives 2 armour

It removes the check penalty and the noisy trait and has whatever benefit Mithral does. That is it

It is also “Uncommon” so not guaranteed for a build. Most GMs could easily say it was Elf only or that you have to do a mission for elves to get access

That does not appear to be correct. Elven chainmail gives you a +2 item bonus and no armor check penalty. So basically it has a built in +2 armor potency rune but since item bonuses do not stack you can't put another rune onto it. It basically is by default chainmail +2 so the correct comparison for the initial poster would be chainmail +2 vs full plate +2 which has the full plate better AC wise.

The mistake appears to be not giving full plate matching improvements for quality in the first example and then adding an armor potency rune on top of what is granted by elven chainmail which won't work because item bonuses don't stack.


Also for multiclass champion goes VERY well with bard multiclass. Getting inspire courage eventually is really good and spell casting ability is handy that also is keyed on one of your focus stats.

Gives you a very battlefield comander type build. A lot of times it seems if you are up in combat the third action is just a wild swing for the fences. if you can inspire courage that not only helps you but everybody in your group.

Eventually being able to pick up sooth and the useful bard cantrips makes for a pretty soild utility spell casting for a front line tank.


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Quandary wrote:

I had to stop watching when it was clear they were doing a Leshy Hellknight, too ridiculous...

...Although, what better to strike fear into the hearts of some of those vicious VEGETARIANS?

I am pretty sure if you saw a walking/talking fungus in full hellknight plate shield and sword that would be pretty damn scary.


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It is a bit odd but I don't see to much of a problem with splash as gameplay wise its easier to figure out. Normal splash is one square around the target and improved is 2 squares around the target. So you get a bit more bang for your buck on bigger targets but effectively is the same. Hits stuff adjacent or hits stuff two squares out. Otherwise you are trying to figure out point of impact and drawing a circle around it which also does not make much sense because the spray is not going inside the target.


Squiggit wrote:

The general does look kind of uncomfortable... or maybe even dead, with the white eyes and the sort of flat expression I certainly get a vague zombie-ish vibe from that image.

The jaw also have a very pronounced triangular shape to it that strikes me as a bit odd.

Finally uh, the porportions feel a bit off to me. New hobgoblins have spindly limbs with oversized extremities compared to humans, which is fine, but the Hobgoblin general has almost human sized and shaped arms, but very stylized proportions in the legs and feet. The alchemist by comparison seems to be slightly more balanced (hands are bigger, feet are a bi smaller) and I think it works a little better.

I think one thing to also note is like we see in monkey goblins the goblinoids seem to be one that is a lot more physically malleable in appearance than most. So having some consistent features that just jump out and say goblinoid helps a lot.


Ascalaphus wrote:
I think accuracy enhancers (higher weapon training, avoiding MAP) are really not to be underestimated.

+4 to attack is almost halfway to a crit in comparison and given now nasty crits can be thats a pretty enormous advantage. I think until people play it more and really understand how much more powerful the + to hit really are damage wise it will be undervalued.


Well an armiger is basically a squire so it does make sense to become a squire before you become a knight. One upside is it does not require you to finish off 3 feats to take it just basically needs the armiger devotion I believe. Also most of the armiger stuff is all pretty hellknight oriented anyway so you wind up just being really fleshed out as a hell knight.

The devotion stuff seemed pretty strong the scaling resistances looked pretty good.


They mentioned in passing a hellknight feat to let their prof for heavy armor and weapons stay up to snuff but since they picked champion they did not go into it much. Sounded like level 6 or 8 option.


Dragorine wrote:

Leaf order also get a 2nd focus point at 1st level.

I have a problem with Goodberry taking a hour to cast. Everyone just waits around for a 1st level druid magically make 1 berry that heal 1d8+5 and save on one ration. Not to mention at level one they can only use their 2nd point to make 1 more goodberry if they have another hour to spend.

It lasts a day so if you make one during your rest period for the day it works but chances of you ever making a second one on a normal adventuring day is probably not great. Basically their ability to use focus is pretty much non existent until they pick some other focus spell up. If you can wait an hour for the berries you can wait an hour and 10 minutes for them to recover the focus.


easy to miss the name soothe does not immediately make you think this is your healing spell at a glance.


Xenocrat wrote:
You should carry around a few items so that you can take advantage of special material qualities when it comes time to hit something with resistance/weakness to cold iron or whatever.

This would be my recommendation as well. Have a pouch or two with stuff. You can have a pouch of just random rocks you pick up during downtime for basic ammo if a room is really bare but it is also nice to have some cold iron nails/silver pins and what not. The objects don't need to be big and they can be pretty much junk you pick up super cheap.


Honestly I think the intention is a ranger/druid can only do command animal 1 in a round so that would let them get some more pet actions. But I really don't see anything that stops you from using the normal command animal multiple times in a round. I see in the spell area that multiple concentration spells are possible if you are willing to spend the actions.

That said normal command animal is pretty specific about burning more actions to make your target animal do more stuff while the animal companion rules specifically change that functionality. It makes no mention of being able to spend more than the one action on it.

I can still sort of see it both ways. The fact that feat exists at all seems to indicate they expect animal companions default is 1 action per turn to gain 2 pet actions per turn.


I missed the minion trait limitations that spells it out much more clearly.


Quintessentially Me wrote:
graystone wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
Zapp wrote:
Magic Fang should obviously work on Animal Companions.

A related question: Since by RAW Magic Fang does not work on animal companions, who or what is it supposed to work on?

Magic Fang is starting to look like a totally useless spell.

Animals you buy [Guard Dog, Riding Dog, Pack Animal, Riding Horse, Warhorse, Riding Pony, Warpony], other druids, alchemists w/ bestial mutagen, monks, sorcerers with those fancy claw focus abilities, clerics of Irori, ect.

I find it funny that it works perfectly well on a druid as long as the druid isn't the one casting the spell... 'hey rogue, you have trick magic item right? can you cast this primal spell on me from this wand. For some reason it doesn't work if I try it...'

Bestial mutagen also provides an item bonus, so no help for such alchemists

At low levels I think it would still get you the second damage dice so not useless but still kind of limited. As written it is something you would give to another shapeshifting/wild form druid/monk/bitey goblins and the like.

If you look at the spell it is almost identical to shillelagh or magic weapon but for unarmed. Due to it not being cast ON something though I think caused the confusion so the targeting wound up being 1 ally. I think there was either some uncertainty about how a spell like that interacted with animal companions and or the ability to count yourself as an ally to cast it on. Both of the book examples of druid from the book and the pregens both have this spell on somebody who as written would have a difficult time using it to the point it would be odd that they would bother having that spell prepared unless you had a very specific group comp.

It seems pretty obvious given the name of it that it was pretty much intended for wildform druids and animal companions to give them some extra punch at very early levels.


They start at trained in unarmored and can get boosts to expert and I think maybe master depending on the upgrades you get for them and calculate AC as normal. 10+ prof+ stat bonus.


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If you look at the pregen druid it seems clear that whoever made that seems to think that it works on their pets. Also the wild druid basic setup in the book also lists them as taking magic fang but given it targets 1 ally means in theory they can't possibly use it on themselves. The weird thing is it really is just shillelagh for unarmed combat. The effect is basically the same and since it only works on things that are 1 dice damage it is in no way overpowered.


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I believe the core rule book actually talks a bit about class archetypes and a bit about some basic differences in how they work. I expect the first batch of those we will see is the advanced players guide.


Draven Torakhan wrote:
Good points, thank you both for keeping it civil. Again, I've yet to play said druid, so you're both quite correct, it very well may play out differently than I'm thinking. It just comes across as severely limited in the reading.

The one minute duration seems really limiting when you glance at it but it being 10 rounds of combat you should have it basically through the entire fight and probably then some. Same with rage unless something really weird is going on one way or the other most combats don't tend to last 10 rounds of combat. And the focus stuff is something you are pretty much expected to regain pretty often basically you should have it up for every major encounter.


Captain Morgan wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
Likely because every player and creature has a progression of fortitude, whereas a player who was not at least trained in athletics would be effectively autograbbed, after the first few levels.

Although to be fair monsters autoGrab anyway most of the time. Though I agree it should be against fortitude anyway for the reason you list.

Escaping a grappling is against the athletics DC though.

I know some people were kinda mocking the paladin that gets a reaction if something is grabbed/bound but a LOT of critters seem to really be very grabby this edition so it winds up being something that does get used a fair bit.


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Crtek wrote:

How many formulas do you get as an alchemist at first level? Is it 4 or 8?

According to the Alchemical Crafting Feat—you immediately add the formulas for four common 1st-level alchemical items to your formula book.

For the entry for the formula book—
The formula book contains the formulas for-two common 1st-level alchemical items of your choice, in addition to those you gained from Alchemical Crafting and your research field.

Entry for the Research Field—You start with the formulas for two 1st-level alchemical bombs in your formula book, in addition to your other formulas.

Every example I have seen has 4 formulas, but after reading all the different entries it sounds like 8 formulas. Especially after reading the entry for the Formula Book where it states “in addition”.

Thanks for any help that can be provided.

You get 8. You get four as per alchemy crafting 2 from your discipline that you chose bomber/mutagenicists/chirugeon and 2 that you can select freely.


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WHW wrote:

What Chirurgeon needed was an Injection Gun/Spear that uses vials of potions and poisons as ammo and allows you to preload them with like 3 charges of such items and then deliver them to foes and friends with an action. Or, perhaps, instead of preloading, make them a viable ammo so you load them in as part of reload action, preserving your action economy.

Should have been either a Field Research ability, or a lvl1 feat, or just a generic equipment anyone can get but they start with.

Basically a fantasy version of the biohacker. It sounds odd but it would be one way to get a better action economy to actually heal people. Heck give them syringes where they can go up and inject their elixirs into people with a single action. It is just super weird that you can combat medicine somebody for 1 action but to heal with your actual class stuff is going to be 2 or 3 actions at least.


The chirugeon needing both medicine and craft is a bit annoying but I am not sure it is really a huge issue. As an alchemist you are always going to be working up craft. If you really care about doing all the things medicine can do than investing in medicine seems pretty expected. Its not a huge boost but it allows you to do your medicine without having to pump wisdom.

It would be nice if they got something in addition to that but it still at least has some use unlike what mutagenicists get.

Honestly I think chirugeons biggest issue is going to wind up being action economy rather than healing ability. Their potions are plenty fine for healing use although it would help if there was a couple extra half steps to help even out some of the dead zone issues where the previous version starts going a bit stale. But their biggest problem healing is they basically have to be up in melee range and use a bunch of actions to give somebody an elixer or to force them to drink it. It is kinda weird that battlefield medicine is easier to do in combat than giving somebody a potion and them drinking it action wise.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Mutagenist is indeed pretty bad right now. It's also almost certain to get significant errata in the next month or so.

At very least the fact that their most recent stated errata about unarmed prof being linked to simple weapon prof they will simply have to give mutagenists something at level 1 for their training benefit. Right now the first part is a left over from the play test and the second part has no effect at all. Its hard to judge how useful they will be when at the very base level its clearly and obviously missing something.


Siro wrote:

Polymorph would most likely be the best bet. A Bard (which would be very much weaker than a Polymorph) could possibly go item less, basically spending combat casting compositions Cantrips, (Inspire Courage, Inspire Defence, Dirge of Doom, Triple Time ) and utilizing feats such as Harmonize (and classing into Sorcerer for there refocus) to help keep multiple ones up at a time. You can be a mini heal bot if you can pick up Soothing Ballad. To round out, you may want to take some knowledge skills/ class feats, that affect knowledge. You are basically the support.

Also, depending on your definition of not expanding resources, you could pick up Mage Armor, giving you at least some protection without items. It does use a slot, but it lasts until your next daily preparations, when you would regain it. (ie, your not using the resource pre say, you are just turning it into something else.)

Of course, without question there are some major weaknesses, making the Polymorph path ultimately superior. If your planning to not use non-cantrip spells, your damage output will be next to zero, and your going to need friends to help with that, and in general. While Composition are generally independent of items, the Feats affecting them are often dependant on Skill checks which are affected by them, and without other spells, that’s going to be how you keep buffs and debuffs up. Ditto for knowledge, as, while you can make knowledge checks all day long, you would like some item bonus help. Basically, while they can both be useable, as long as you invest in pumping those number whenever you can, but don’t be surprised when it just does not work out.

Bards could do it pretty well if you were just going full caster. Do your cantrip buffs and then use your cantrip attacks and throw in some real spells as needed. I was jokingly thinking of a bag piper halfling bard. This edition you could legit just go to town honking your pipes full time and be effective.


coriolis wrote:

While looking at the skill feats at level 2, I noticed that ALL of them require you to be expert. However, I can't find any way to actually become expert by level 2, as skill increases for all classes are at level 3.

I might be missing something, but it seems weird to me to have feats with requirements no one can achieve when they become available.

Some of the new archetypes that you can take at level 2 will boost skills to expert if you already had them at trained.


Should I be worried that my preorder Order 4823406 I did back in march for the pf2e core book/bestiary and lost omens world book still have not shipped yet?

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