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Blake's Tiger wrote:
I agree there's no point for the Aura trait on spells.

Not true: you can have things that affect auras but not normal emanations, like how in the playtest you had abilities that boosted the emanation of kinetic auras but not normal emanations. They might be completely redundant on paper but you can trigger things of the trait leaving other things untouched. Now I don't know if that's why some things where changed to auras while others weren't but it's a possibility.


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HumbleGamer wrote:
graystone wrote:
Optimization on the traditional sense does still exist in the game. For instance, you can have an Aid build that human [adopted halfling] that gets +4 on aid checks, grants a +4 on crit Aid checks and can't roll under a success plus roll a Diplomacy check to Aid. Or a Forensic Medicine Investigator taking Medic to optimize Battle Medicine.

Indeed.

But even simply playing with or without a bard in the team would make a huge difference.

LOL Funny enough if you take that aid build on a bard, you can use Perform for all your Aid checks and you can auto-succeed on every one. Taking bard IS optimization! ;)


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Optimization on the traditional sense does still exist in the game. For instance, you can have an Aid build that human [adopted halfling] that gets +4 on aid checks, grants a +4 on crit Aid checks and can't roll under a success plus roll a Diplomacy check to Aid. Or a Forensic Medicine Investigator taking Medic to optimize Battle Medicine.


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About the only ways in game to make this work are"

The Rope Mastery Feat, level 10
"When holding a rope, you can attempt an Athletics check to Disarm, Grapple, or Trip a creature up to 10 feet away instead of only adjacent creatures."

Animate Rope
Spell 1
Tie "The rope ties itself around a willing creature or an object that's unattended or attended by a willing creature."

Combat Grapnel, net or Aklys can also work as can a Harpoon Bolt if you don't mind a little damage. There is also an actual lasso in the game, a specific magic item called Lawbringer's Lasso which "is a net that can be used to Grapple creatures up to 30 feet away" so it looks like any attempt to lasso acts like a net.


Guntermench wrote:
It's got roughly the same fluff sentence, so it looks definitely magical to me. The one that isn't is Adamantine Strikes, which is just hitting really hard.

I can say the same thing with the Energy Mutagen.

"You can adjust your body to make unarmed attacks infused with the mystic energy of rare metals" isn't substantially different from "the mutagen suffuses your body with energy that spills out of you whenever you attack" IMO. "Mystic" is a non-sequitur to me as it's undefined in game and has non-magic common languages uses. It can mean mysterious, obscure, enigmatic, inducing a feeling of awe or wonder or relating to mysteries or esoteric rites. [so says merriam-webster]

There is only SO much you can debate about the "fluff sentence" when talking about rules when 'natural language' is assumed for non-defined words.


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Guntermench wrote:
Quote:
You can adjust your body to make unarmed attacks infused with the mystic energy of rare metals.
I feel like mystic energy is probably magical?

It's a different ability from the one that makes your unarmed attack Magical. *shrug* When a non-magic elixir can make you grow scales, fangs and claws [or adds elemental damage to your unarmed attacks], I don't see the change to something that acts like silver in a different category. I mean when you can use an Energy Mutagen to "suffuses your body" with "acid, cold, electricity, or fire" in a non-magic way, I'm not seeing the difference if you replace those elemental damages with the "energy of rare metals".


Captain Morgan wrote:
graystone wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
Would still be weird for bite attacks. Drinking liquid silver would not be good for you.
Would it? When does it ever say it's actually silver? You don't have to drink silver as a monk to have your unarmed attacks with Metal Strikes count as such so why would a consumable? As Metal Strikes mentions, there is a "mystic energy of rare metals" so why couldn't it be that instead of some pure silver liquid?
Well you said it was like silversheen, which is alchemical, not mystical. If you're going to bring magic into it, then sure.

I said a CONSUMABLE like silversheen NOT an alchemical item...

Though if you take into account that elixirs are bring back the dead, grant immortality, suffuses your body with elemental energy and polymorph yourself, I'm not sure "mystic" couldn't be used to describe elixirs too especially as mystical covers more ground than magical as mystical isn't a keyword or limited to magical things. For instance, nothing indicates that a monks Metal Strikes ability is Magical.


Squiggit wrote:
Unicore wrote:
Players shouldn't be expected to go through the mental gymnastics as reading 0 as different from none.
As opposed to the mental gymnastics of reloading that's not actually reloading?

Yes, I think it much harder to argue that an arrow isn't being manipulated than it is to say it is.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Would still be weird for bite attacks. Drinking liquid silver would not be good for you.

Would it? When does it ever say it's actually silver? You don't have to drink silver as a monk to have your unarmed attacks with Metal Strikes count as such so why would a consumable? As Metal Strikes mentions, there is a "mystic energy of rare metals" so why couldn't it be that instead of some pure silver liquid?


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Captain Morgan wrote:

Except there's no way to add precious materials to unarmed attacks, even aside from animal companion rules. Even setting aside the lack of rules support... Claws are constantly growing so you couldn't adhere anything permeant to them. Teeth are not, but good luck getting your pet to stay still while you perform that level of dentistry to it.

The only plausible exception I can think of wood be horseshoes for hooved critters.

A Consumable item, like Silversheen but for unarmed attacks, seems plausible too: just make it an oil that the owner activates.


You sure can but the catch is that they can't be in your animal companions mouth when you do it: several weapons are made with teeth, like the Leiomano, so you could rip out all it's teeth and make such a weapon and there are ways to make weapons count as Precious materials. I doubt that's the answer you're looking for though.

EDIT: I DID think of one way: Silver's Refrain: a bard cantrip that allows "Weapon and unarmed attacks by allies in the area are treated as silver."


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Errenor wrote:
Ed Reppert wrote:
Herolab online seems to think you have to select "Land Speed" as one of the familiar's abilities, since if you create a familiar in HLO it has no movement speed at all until you do. HLO could be wrong, but...

So they officially think that the base familiar is a pet stone :-D

Also, I'd point out that there is no familiar ability 'Land speed' at all, as you can youself see in books or on AoN: Familiars
It doesn't exist. The closest you can get is Amphibious in case a familiar already has swim speed. But it then has swim speed from the start, for free.

There ARE some familiars that start with no movement: baba yaga and star orb familiars. So it's not unheard of.

"The object familiar has no Speeds and must select a Speed familiar ability before it can move, coming to life in a way appropriate to the chosen Speed and using the statistics of a normal familiar for that day."

"The familiar has no Speeds and must select a Speed familiar ability before it can move, animating in a way appropriate to the chosen Speed and using the statistics of a normal familiar for that day; when it‘s an immobile stone, it can't select any familiar or master abilities that require it to move."


aobst128 wrote:
If you're going with unconventional weaponry, the flickmace fits the look of the morningstar from the Netflix show best I think.

The only ancestry weapon that is most often NOT taken by that ancestry... :P


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aobst128 wrote:
If you're going with unconventional weaponry, the flickmace fits the look of the morningstar from the Netflix show best I think.

The only ancestry weapon that is most often NOT taken by that ancestry... :P


Ravingdork wrote:

Nice. Thank you so much.

Now what about the bulk? Is that something I have to worry about while using it? Or only when I'm carrying it unattached?

I assume that a normal prosthesis weighs around the same as what is replaced as nothing is noted for bulk. For the magic ones that do list bulk, I'd say those do count towards bulk attached or unattached.

I think we can tell that normal ones are a net neutral by looking at the immovable arm: it has a 1 bulk item built into it and retains that 1 bulk with the rest of the arm attached.


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JstCurious wrote:
...

Rolls Will save vs Wall of Text

*rolls 1*
Critically fails Wall of text save
Stunned and Stupefied for 1d4 minutes.
.
..
...


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Nefreet wrote:
There is no such thing as "RAW" in Pathfinder 2E, thanks to the section on Ambiguous Rules in the Core Rulebook.

Ambiguous Rules doesn't remove RAW but tells you to houserule if something isn't working as/is: the rules are still written.


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xNellynelx wrote:
graystone wrote:
Hmmm... It say "Otherwise, open the spoiler box below for a bit more information!" but I don't see a spoiler box. Is that the mystery?
The "Congratulations, Archivists!" is the spoiler box. Click that.
Squiggit wrote:
graystone wrote:
Hmmm... It say "Otherwise, open the spoiler box below for a bit more information!" but I don't see a spoiler box. Is that the mystery?
Click on "Congratulations, Archivists!" with the right facing arrow.

Ok, thanks for the reply. On my screen there is 0% indicator that that is any different from the rest of the page. I had clicked in that general area but I guess I missed the box.


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Hmmm... It say "Otherwise, open the spoiler box below for a bit more information!" but I don't see a spoiler box. Is that the mystery?


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Cyrus007 wrote:
If I played all of the Extinction Curse AP modules, can I play the Staff Acrobat Dedicaiton Feat in a Pathfinder Society organized game? Thank you.

This sounds like a PFS question, so it'd be best to ask it in that forum.


HammerJack wrote:
I [snip] thought you were saying jellyfish stance also has reach grapple.

Ah, that makes sense: I was wondering if I'd missed something.


HammerJack wrote:
graystone wrote:
Qaianna wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
Qaianna wrote:

I'm imagining that you're holding something at the end of a long pole. You can't really kick or stab at it, but it's not kicking or stabbing you. I'm comparing it to those weird animal control sticks.

I also haven't seen anything preventing the grappler from moving, so I think you could Grapple with the hook at reach, then later Step in, and headbutt your new friend. (And use an action to keep the hold, of course.)

The Grapple action itself is the thing that prevents the grappler from moving. The success and critical success results are as follows:

Critical Success Your target is restrained until the end of your next turn unless you move or your target Escapes.
Success Your target is grabbed until the end of your next turn unless you move or your target Escapes.

Argh, missed that. Hope you have someone nearby who can take advantage then. You're committed to ... well, standing there, I guess. Seems weird. Well, there's ... er ...

...

Suddenly Grapple with Reach doesn't seem as fun.

Well you could use jellyfish stance: the unarmed attack is reach and not limb specific so you could kick the target of your grapple without moving.
It would, of course, not prevent them from retaliating against you the way that holding them at the end of a stick might.

Why is that? Your jellyfish stance kick is reach as is your gill hook grapple. Unless they too have reach, I don't see how they are attacking back.


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Lucerious wrote:

To complicate it more, how about the combat grapnel? It has Finesse, Grapple, Tethered, Thrown 20’, Uncommon. In the description it says it can be used as a climbing tool and is attached to a rope 10’ long and can be swung as a weapon. So…it presumably has Reach without the tag and can be used to grapple at…10’?…By being thrown to 20’? Basic reasoning would say the Grapple feature would only work at up to 10’, but the weapon doesn’t have the Reach tag so that may also mean only at the standard 5’.

This weapon makes no sense to me! Argh!

You don't have reach so you can only grapple within our normal reach anything past that is ranged combat which is 20' increments but to use tethered you are limited to 10' meaning to throw 15'+ you have to let go of the rope. This, IMO, the 20' of rope are used to wrap around targets.

You can also look at the Aklys fr a weapon with an attached rope that uses it for Tethered and not reach. Tethered + rope is there to retrieve your weapon not to increase your reach.


Qaianna wrote:
HammerJack wrote:
Qaianna wrote:

I'm imagining that you're holding something at the end of a long pole. You can't really kick or stab at it, but it's not kicking or stabbing you. I'm comparing it to those weird animal control sticks.

I also haven't seen anything preventing the grappler from moving, so I think you could Grapple with the hook at reach, then later Step in, and headbutt your new friend. (And use an action to keep the hold, of course.)

The Grapple action itself is the thing that prevents the grappler from moving. The success and critical success results are as follows:

Critical Success Your target is restrained until the end of your next turn unless you move or your target Escapes.
Success Your target is grabbed until the end of your next turn unless you move or your target Escapes.

Argh, missed that. Hope you have someone nearby who can take advantage then. You're committed to ... well, standing there, I guess. Seems weird. Well, there's ... er ...

...

Suddenly Grapple with Reach doesn't seem as fun.

Well you could use jellyfish stance: the unarmed attack is reach and not limb specific so you could kick the target of your grapple without moving.


Farien wrote:
graystone wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
If the eidolon is not left with any stats of its own, then do they really exist?
Ask the familiar. They don't get stats but exists in the game.
And only get defined actions during combat when they aren't able to do anything useful.

And? The question was if they need their own stats: the game already has creatures in game that don't so it's answered. Eidolon already have a leg up on familiars by having attacks. That and they can actually carry tools if they take the right ability.


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Ravingdork wrote:
If the eidolon is not left with any stats of its own, then do they really exist?

Ask the familiar. They don't get stats but exists in the game.


Ravingdork wrote:

I think it's safe to say that everyone here understands what the rules technically say. It's just that not everyone agrees that, that is what they were INTENDED to say.

I for one suspect that eidolons were not generally intended to be barred from mundane gear. The alternative creates a whole host of problems from not being able to fully utilize numerous skill feats to humanoid eidolons suddenly being unable to pick up items, open doors, climb ladders, light or carry lanterns, or whatever else.

*shrug* How long were battleforms not allowed to escape because it was an attack action and battleforms could only use attacks given by the form?

As to mundane gear, you don't carry/wield things like doors or ladders [already placed] so they seem safe IMO. As such, I wouldn't count them as gear at all: you're using them as much as you are using the ground/stairs to walk on.

Squiggit wrote:

It sounds implausibly bad and unintended, but PF2 is full of rules that seem implausibly bad and clearly problematic, despite being designed that way on purpose.

So it's hard to really say what the intent is one way or the other. At the very least it's worth pointing out to someone, because it might come up at their table.

Yep on both points.


YuriP wrote:
Maybe it's a little tedious but you can repeat the class survey for each tested build changing what need.

That'd skew some questions that are meant for the class in general while giving the normal results for that build. *shrug* I went over the differences in builds in the open response survey.


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I wish they didn't expect you to only play a single character. I played several so asking what level, ancestry or feats I used for a singular character doesn't really work for me. I filed out for the character I played the most.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Yeah, the lack of any published Armor with the Eidolon Trait, the same thing that prevents them from wearing any other non-specialized equipment.

Come again?

It was my understanding that such restrictions only applied to magical gear. If the armor has no runes, I don't believe it falls under that category. Did I miss something more in the rules?

Eidolon

Source Secrets of Magic pg. 253
"An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait. (An eidolon can have up to two items invested.)"

The trait makes no mention of the item being a magic item. The Gear and Your Eidolon does say magic items, but that doesn't contradict the trait as magic items are items and saying magic items are excluded in itself says nothing about normal items.


Yep, number of actions doesn't have to match components: as such, there aren't individual actions with each components but a number of actions that all share the components.


Themetricsystem wrote:
So you're assuming that hypothetical Kinetecist just so happens to be part of the Aspis Consortium organization or otherwise has fought against and looted specialists from it?

No. As you pointed out it works with a whip too that has a similar set of stats that include reach.

And there ARE the Former Aspis Agent background, being from Rahadoum originally and/or Unconventional Weaponry as ways to access.


YuriP wrote:
Yet the usage of EW to avoid AoO is relative because in practice when a kineticist is put in a situation where it needs to use EW to prevent the AoO the mere fact of "cast" the EW triggers an AoO. So you need to know that opponent in question is already able to do AoO before enter in it's range.

You could Step and make a weapon with reach, such as an asp coil. It's not great but I did something similar with normal blasts and switching to air to avoid AoO.

YuriP wrote:
So in general I don't recommend to any kineticist to fight at melee because you will be in a situation where you will be worse and way more limited than any other class or melee monster. Usually the usage of "keep out the distance" tactics is better for kineticists.

Agreed.


Mundane handwraps are part of normal clothing: the magic is making them "of Might blows". As such, tie a strip of cloth around each hand and you're good to go. It might cost you a cp worth of cloth if you don't include it in your clothing set.


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Myself, I'd prefer if impulses 'picked a lane', as in either go all in on being spells or go all in on being more physical effects. Having them with a foot in each just leads to weird results. The whole extra action [gather] and having the equivalent to casting components [concentrate and manipulate traits] for every action, even the basic blasts, just makes them worse than either one and makes it so they don't play well with other parts of the game.


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Unicore wrote:
All hail Terrornip! Deity of Turnips and Terror. Feast and be Feasted upon. Their dirt will take us all.

Brassica, the reaper, lord of all cruciferous vegetable who will fertilize the soil with the blood of his enemies! Imagine a turnip Root Leshy with a large scythe, stalking those that drag his brethren out of the ground and feast on their flesh!


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I think 'champions of domains' makes more sense. So instead of a specific champion of nethys, pick one of the domains [Destruction, Glyph, Knowledge, Magic, Protection] so if you worship nethys you might be a destruction champion or a magic champion. Or a turnip god for a toil champion or a nature or earth one. To me it makes more sense to focus on a particular aspect of a god.


keftiu wrote:
One of my largest frustrations is that the Champion class feels so much more like the "alignment warrior" class than any sort of "knight of my deity" feeling. Between that and Warpriest Clerics being kind of a joke, I'm... surprised people feel like the devotees of the gods are over-represented in PF2.

There is a difference between being represented and being represented well: I feel that there are a LOT of classes that access divine power and can worship a god but that doesn't mean that I feel that great about some aspects of those options like... well everything about the warpriest. I'd rather focus on making existing options better than adding more.

On champions, they have always been an alignment forward class so I'm not surprised by the class: it's why I don't play them. Maybe when they get to neutral and/or alignment agnostic causes/tenets.


Verzen wrote:

For example - You're human - Take the ancestral feat that gives you an additional class feat at 1st level.

You now have two class feats at 1st level

Use two of those feats to pick up two elemental feats.. any elemental feats of your choice at 1st level and the 3rd one? You can choose a different one once per day.

So you should have a total of 3 feats as a human as a possibility.

Don't forget the feat to get medium armor for your strength Universalist. Oh, and another to use str for your blasts... How many feats was it again? :(


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Ravingdork wrote:
happyninja42 wrote:
...like a filthy caster memorizing spells.
Was that really necessary?

We're playing around with water and earth and you're surprised to see someone tossing around a little mud? I don't think fictional wizards are getting their feelings hurt.


Ravingdork wrote:
graystone wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
In my games, the players don't get a magical cure-all for their eidolon.
It's not that though: pausing means both positive and negative effects are affected for good and bad. If it doesn't pause you can unsummon your eidolon and let the duration time out that way for some afflictions: for instance, like confused, stupefied, enfeebled, fleeing, fear, ect. Neither option is a loophole.
Ergo, there's no magical cure-all in my games. As I said. ;P

Yes you said that but you didn't explain what you mean by it. It's kind of a non-sequitur for the OP's question as is.


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Ravingdork wrote:
In my games, the players don't get a magical cure-all for their eidolon.

It's not that though: pausing means both positive and negative effects are affected for good and bad. If it doesn't pause you can unsummon your eidolon and let the duration time out that way for some afflictions: for instance, like confused, stupefied, enfeebled, fleeing, fear, ect. Neither option is a loophole.


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Gisher wrote:
graystone wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Melee characters should keep a ranged weapon as a backup, but I wouldn't expect them to put much character resources into it. It's a plan B. At a certain point my primary plan would become access to flight magic (including as a potion) and flying to melee that enemy. But having a bow as a backup is still a good idea.
Aklys and Bola make great backups for those going strength as the Ranged Trip ability lets you make an athletics check instead of an attack roll.
Yeah. That's why I was bummed when they changed the Bolas to Uncommon. :(

Yeah, I have a few ways to get access: Shoanti have bolas so being from saga lands should allow access, bounty hunter grants access with a feat, 2 gods have it as a favored weapon, Orang-Pendaks use them [a DM might let you be adopted] and Leng spiders make them so being a former slave of one might give access [say from the Kidnapped or Abandoned in a Distant Land deep background event].

For Aklys, dero use them... and that's about it.


Ventnor wrote:
Automatons can integrate a Jezail into their arm at level 5, and 2-hand it for Fatal Aim, meaning you can play a PF2 version of Samus Aran. They can also be holstered in a Gunner’s Bandolier if you want to make use of that item.

An inventor can make it with a Modular Head [Modular trait + nonlethal if you want], Integrated Gauntlet [free-hand trait] and Rune Capacity [+1 property rune so you could have Brilliant (greater), Flaming (greater), thundering (greater) and Shocking (greater)]. Oh, and they could two hand it and have a free hand too.


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Claxon wrote:
Melee characters should keep a ranged weapon as a backup, but I wouldn't expect them to put much character resources into it. It's a plan B. At a certain point my primary plan would become access to flight magic (including as a potion) and flying to melee that enemy. But having a bow as a backup is still a good idea.

Aklys and Bola make great backups for those going strength as the Ranged Trip ability lets you make an athletics check instead of an attack roll.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the natural reaction a kineticist should get somewhere is "I interfere with your movement by messing with the terrain, a sudden gust of wind, a slippery patch, unexpected fire" etc.

Let people do it in aura range when their aura is up.

I go with some damage and a save [DC using con modifier] based on the element: earth [trip], air [shove away], water [force a balance check], fire [flatfooted].


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Unicore wrote:
Earth shield is better than a kineticist carrying a shield.

Not in all cases: if you're looking for bonus to AC , any old shield will do. And on a class with sooooooo many things wantng you to spend your actions/round, an ancestry feat for Shield might be a better bet than a constant slow effect/2 action activity from the Earth Shield.

Unicore wrote:
An Earth Kineticist and a champion together are probably going to be the tankiest front line in PF2.

If tanky is what you're going for, it does a good job but it doesn't leave much room for much else. This means that you're giving up on the majority of your class feats in combat as they give you activities you just don't have the actions for and use the Earth Shield.


aobst128 wrote:
A drifter that specializes in unarmed attacks can make decent use out of a jezail.

Or free hand weapons: for instance, the Bladed Gauntlet offers Agile, Finesse, Free-Hand, Modular B, P, or S.


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Monastic Archer Stance adds bows too.


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Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:
graystone wrote:

Back in the old days it was "protection from evil, magic missile, and maze" that worked by default. There isn't a specific vulnerability to force, just spells listed.

There were a few other force spells like Mordenkainen's Sword but that spell says "it can hit any sort of opponent even those normally struck only by +3 weapons or astral, ethereal or out of phase". By the time you're high enough to cast that spell, you're unlikely to meet a will o wisp.

Heh... I wonder if old gaming groups ever got into pedantic hypothetical arguments about wisps being immune to Mord-Sword or not just because it's not listed as an exception but the latter affects anything? Sounds like fertile ground for the game's other favorite tradition.

Not really. Any caster that could use Mordenkainen's Sword most likely had magic missile too [x7 1d4+1 damage with no save is a good problem solver for a 1st level spell].

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