What character concepts are we still unable to build? Let us seek their essence.


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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This is mostly a fishing expedition for possible untapped class space... and it's specifically about iconic characters. We're looking for characters with the following features:

- Comes from a book, movie, TV show, or videogame. We're looking for something that someone might have seen once, said "I want to play *that*." and wish to play in game. Note that "other TTRPG" is *not* on the list. I suppose that wargames, board games, and CCGs are also a possibility... but we're specifically *not* looking for complaints that PF2 is missing out on some thing that PF1 had. We already know all of those. If you cherish a thing from PF1, and you want to get it in the thread, then see if you can find the essence of the thing you want in some other media, where we can actually distill out that essence without getting hung up on pointing at a bunch of class features and asking for those.

- Has to be actually in scope. We all know how tight the power balance is in PF2, and we're simply not going to get anything that breaks it.

- Has to be a character concept that you actually personally want and are interested in for some reason.

- There's something fundamental and important to the character (in your view) that you want and that you *cannot* get from PF2 as it is. The more clearly you can express this, the better. Discussing how to try to assemble something that resembles the thing you want from existing parts *is* on topic, but not as a "you're wrong" argument. Rather, it would be in order to refine what *exactly* is missing.

Also, as a specific caveat, let's assume that they do a good job on the Kineticist. In particular, let's assume that it's possible to build a reasonably satisfying elemental blaster out of it, and that they offer a level 1 feat that lets you do an appropriate amount of "I want to have everything I do be of damage type X". That one is currently pretty hypothetical, so let's be generous.

/*************/

...and I'll get us started off with one that we still don't have. (Admittedly, it's one I've mentioned before in other contexts) We don't have a true minion necro. The archetype has shown up in a bunch of places, but I'm going to take Diablo 2 as my official reference. This is the guy who's just got a horde of individually unimportant and largely disposable skeletons or zombies that follow him around and are effectively meaningful only in the aggregate. They're a huge tarpit that does okay damage, and they're generally able to support with some sort of spellcasting that lets them buff their allies or debuff their enemies or both. Mostly, though, it's the fantasy of having something like a small military unit's worth of skeletons following you around and doing what you tell them to, powered by your own necromantic abilities.

Really, all it would take to support this one in a satisfying way in my head would be to give the summoner a feat, or perhaps a small feat tree, that would let them change their eidolon into a troop, with appropriate modifications to stats. I know there are people out there who also want swarms, and that seems like the sort of thing that could be a follow-on feat or two. As it is, though, this option is not available to me.

Bonus points of you also offer a reasonably effective grapple/restraint ability that would let you simulate the target being grabbed and dragged down and piled on top of by something like twenty individually unimpressive zombies at once.

Silver Crusade

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An character that is moderately successful at both divine spellcasting and physical attacking. Basically, a divine magus.


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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
An character that is moderately successful at both divine spellcasting and physical attacking. Basically, a divine magus.

Please, give us a specific example to work with that would satisfy you. Are you looking for a WOW Paladin? a Warhammer Priest of Sigmar? Tempus from Thieves World? The idea here is to start with something that is not couched in RPG-speak, and work it back in. Like, yeah, we've had lots of threads saying "I want to hit things and also have divine magic" but the idea for this thread is to go beyond that and reference characters out there in other media that you'd want to play as, and then dig into what you think is cool about them in particular that you can't get here.

Oh - and examples from myth and history and everything in between are also absolutely legit, if *that's* what you're craving. At the same time, examples from videogames that are explicitly running on a D&D-based or Pathfinder-based system are cheating at least a little unless the thing you like about them is somehow separate from the details of the system they're running on.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

-FFXIV dark knight, a character who wields a huge weapon and seamlessly blends dark magic with physical combat and an emphasis on protecting allies. This character can unleash explosive blasts of dark energy and swing their sword with equal proficiency while acting as a stalwart guardian.

Most characters are good with swords or magic, but not both. Most defensive options are tied to shields or are otherwise too tightly themed. Magi can use spells, but only in a very limited way and fail on the themeing front.

-Kazuha from Genshin Impact. A wandering swordsman and bard who can manipulate the wind to do things create a vortex that draws enemies closer or summon a giant field of wind that violently buffets those within it and can absorb elemental energies.

Again, not a lot of characters who can use magical powers as part of a martial combat routine, space control like this is also pretty limited in PF2. Notably suffers from having a themed power set, which PF2 spellcasting does not emulate well.

... tbh fiction, especially more modern fiction and games, is absolutely replete with characters that use supernatural abilities while fighting with weapons and PF2 as a system is generally terrible at emulating any of them, because D&D builds a wall between martial and magical powers for the most part.


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Thinking of superhero stuff, I like the idea of healing factors and power sets that make characters particularly difficult to kill or injure. Thinking a standard martial chassis. With fast healing as a focus on the power budget. A natural tank role. Possibly divine focused.


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A "caster" who isn't versatile in the slightest and has no spellslots and no support, control or AoE abilities but can shoot powerful energy beams every turn with fighter accuracy. A true single target blaster caster who fills the same role in a party as a ranged martial - the playtest analysis makes me very sure that the kineticist won't be able to fulfill this fantasy. I don't want to control the elements and do cool avatar stuff, I just want to go pew pew pew with magic all the time like wizard kirby or the magikoopas from super mario.

A mentally strong, physically weak "martial" without any magical abilities who sucks at making strikes, never has a weapon equipped but is still a useful party member just through their great wisdom, charisma and intelligence and excells at resourceless buffs and debuffs. A true nonmagical supporter who fills the same role in a party as bard. The alchemist kinda fits this description but is way too narrow thematically, too martial in general and just IMO not fun to play.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sanityfaerie wrote:
We don't have a true minion necro. The archetype has shown up in a bunch of places, but I'm going to take Diablo 2 as my official reference. This is the guy who's just got a horde of individually unimportant and largely disposable skeletons or zombies that follow him around and are effectively meaningful only in the aggregate.

Do you think something could be done with the rules for mobs or crowds? Where you summon a mob of skeletons. That might work.


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Elden Ring has the Confessor as one of its starting classes, a medium-armor assassin who uses a mix of martial skill and holy miracles to fight - seriously, their starting divine spell makes them extra stealthy! That fantasy, of being sneaky and clever with a bag of holy tricks (including, later on, some big splashy offensive magic) is something I’d love in Pathfinder.

An Eldritch Trickster (Cleric, Oracle, divine Sorcerer or Witch) just doesn’t quite deliver for me.

Verdant Wheel

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I always liked the DC comics character Deadman, so a character who interacts with the material plane primarily indirectly is a fun character concept I'd like to be able to explore, almost like a reverse spiritualist. You wouldn't have to be literally undead like the comic book character or even difficult to kill; maybe you're based in the astral or ethereal plane but with a limited ability to manifest in the material and such manifestations draw on your own life force with their destruction carrying mortal consequences, maybe you're stuck between worlds or some kind of thoughtform or disembodied being primarily of energy.

Johann Krauss from the Hellboy/BPRD comics is another character in a similar vein. I just think the idea of a character who's not entirely physical but who uses possession and animation of objects and creatures to interact with the material world sounds really fun. Krauss, unlike Deadman, is actually pretty vulnerable to worldly threats, so while I think some thought would need to go into balancing something like this that it's not impossible.


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After playing wizard of legend, and even many of the souls borne games, I just want to play a melee caster. Not a gish, only spells, but specifically close range. Short cones, touch spells, emanations.

Unfortunately, AoO in 2e is VERY common (less than 1e obviously), and most casters have terrible defenses. Close range spells are also quite rare, especially at higher levels, and generally aren't stronger than ranged versions.

It's the first thing that I tried to build in 2e, but I just can't make it work. Maybe kineticist will help.

Other fictional characters that kind of inspire the concept are the ninjas of Naruto. They're often gishes, but characters like hinata with the gentle fist, or Naruto raisengan, the chidori etc, are all primarily destructive for their magical component, most closely resembling touch attacks.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'd like someone better at summoning. (Like, actual summoning, not Eidolon). The current summoning spells are nice, but not reliable as your primary method of play due to how low level summons are. (My level 20 character, fighting a level 22 boss, is only going to get so far with it's level 15 summon)

A class archetype for Summoner that gives up their Eidolon for better summoning would probably solve this problem for me. Maybe a mechanic similar to cleric's healing font?

A Summoning font that lets you cast animate dead/a Summon Spell, but summon a creature of your level -2, rather than the limitations of the regular spell?


_shredder_ wrote:

A "caster" who isn't versatile in the slightest and has no spellslots and no support, control or AoE abilities but can shoot powerful energy beams every turn with fighter accuracy. A true single target blaster caster who fills the same role in a party as a ranged martial - the playtest analysis makes me very sure that the kineticist won't be able to fulfill this fantasy. I don't want to control the elements and do cool avatar stuff, I just want to go pew pew pew with magic all the time like wizard kirby or the magikoopas from super mario.

A mentally strong, physically weak "martial" without any magical abilities who sucks at making strikes, never has a weapon equipped but is still a useful party member just through their great wisdom, charisma and intelligence and excells at resourceless buffs and debuffs. A true nonmagical supporter who fills the same role in a party as bard. The alchemist kinda fits this description but is way too narrow thematically, too martial in general and just IMO not fun to play.

For the first I won't ask for an example, because that's the pattern of too many superheroes to count. I will say that I'm more hopeful that kineticist will provide some of that experience than you are. They did at least say that they would try.

For the second, could you offer an example of that kind of character out in the field?

Ched Greyfell wrote:
Do you think something could be done with the rules for mobs or crowds? Where you summon a mob of skeletons. That might work.

Yep. That's what I was saying about "change their Eidolon into a troop". They don't all have to be independent actors. In some ways, it's better if they're just a faceless mob... but it needs to support the fiction of having a whole bunch of bodies on the field, and currently there's no way to do that.

Liberty's Edge

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Sanityfaerie wrote:


Ched Greyfell wrote:
Do you think something could be done with the rules for mobs or crowds? Where you summon a mob of skeletons. That might work.
Yep. That's what I was saying about "change their Eidolon into a troop". They don't all have to be independent actors. In some ways, it's better if they're just a faceless mob... but it needs to support the fiction of having a whole bunch of bodies on the field, and currently there's no way to do that.

I think this would aptly work for the character I had in mind for this thread : Jackie Estacado, aka The Darkness. A mob of small minions, some he can argue with, and later (higher level feats) one or two bigger minions for tasks that require a distinct creature rather than a mob/swarm.


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A few things I'd like to see:

I want an option that lets me play similar to the final fight in the first PotC movie. Particularly Jack's style. So a lot of sword play, and then finishing with a strong, single gun shot. I think this could be replicated with a Swashbuckler feat that lets you perform a finisher with a one handed range weapon? The focus would still be on sword play most of the time using it as a set up for the gun. The reason I don't think the Drifter Gunslinger quite does this for me is because it is more 50/50 on sword and gun. I'd like to use the gun so little that the need to reload isn't an issue, a bandolier with multiple guns would work fine. And I want the panache mechanic so that the gun needs a set up, forcing me into sword combat for general fighting.

I know this is probably on a lot of lists, but a mechanical way to play essentially two characters that swap between one body. Looking at Jekyll/Hyde, Banner/Hulk, etc. I know the mutagenist exists, but I want a more extreme character swap. A completely different play style with new strengths and weaknesses. I want to feel like I'm a different person, with even a new alignment. I know it's suggested to take the barbarian dedication on alchemist, but then my scientist side would also have barbarian abilities. I'd like to see the two personalities more segregated. I'd be happy with just focusing this as an alchemist option, but opening this up to an archetype with more mixing and matching would allow something closer to the movie Split, which would be pretty cool.

I know living vessel is an archetype, but I really want to see it as a full class with way more options. I think the idea is way too awesome to not be available as the main aspect of your character. I'm expanding this to be any situation where your primary abilities are through another creature that is some how connected you your body. Inspiration to me comes from Blue Beetle from Young Justice (just replace the technology with magic.) I think this would be best as a bounded caster/gish. So you can emphasize body transformation as a martial or channeling spells from the entity. Maybe this could be done as a summoner, but I don't want this to be full body swapping like above. More a constant push and pull between the two about how much control you are willing to give the entity. Like letting it give you a tentacle arm, but still keeping the rest of you you.

I know it's from a TTRPG, but it isn't in PF1 so maybe that's okay? It's the Beguiler from 3.5! You can get kind of close by taking rogue dedication on a wizard, but it's missing my favorite mechanic: your spell DCs are higher when you target a flat-footed opponent! It was so fun to play like a rogue, trying to set up your opponents up, but then hit them with debuff instead of just straight damage. And with PF2's multiple success levels, I think this would be even cooler!

There are others for sure, but these are at the top of my head right now.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Jedi Maester wrote:


I know this is probably on a lot of lists, but a mechanical way to play essentially two characters that swap between one body. Looking at Jekyll/Hyde, Banner/Hulk, etc. I know the mutagenist exists, but I want a more extreme character swap. A completely different play style with new strengths and weaknesses. I want to feel like I'm a different person, with even a new alignment. I know it's suggested to take the barbarian dedication on alchemist, but then my scientist side would also have barbarian abilities. I'd like to see the two personalities more segregated. I'd be happy with just focusing this as an alchemist option, but opening this up to an archetype with more mixing and matching would allow something closer to the movie Split, which would be pretty cool.

I suspect synthasist summoner where the summon is a transformation rather than a separate body would be good at filling that role, once that class archetype actually exists at least


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xNellynelx wrote:

I'd like someone better at summoning. (Like, actual summoning, not Eidolon). The current summoning spells are nice, but not reliable as your primary method of play due to how low level summons are. (My level 20 character, fighting a level 22 boss, is only going to get so far with it's level 15 summon)

A class archetype for Summoner that gives up their Eidolon for better summoning would probably solve this problem for me. Maybe a mechanic similar to cleric's healing font?

A Summoning font that lets you cast animate dead/a Summon Spell, but summon a creature of your level -2, rather than the limitations of the regular spell?

I suspect that we should write off the Summoner for this. It is a mixed concept that has the same problems as the PF1 Summoner. It is two things mixed together. Neither of which is a classic summoner.

I'd much rather see a Wizard or Sorcerer get a Summoner Archetype that had a Focus point summon. Make it cost something like say what Flexible Spell casting does. But have the summoned creature scale reasonably with defined abilities.


Kekkres wrote:
Jedi Maester wrote:


I know this is probably on a lot of lists, but a mechanical way to play essentially two characters that swap between one body. Looking at Jekyll/Hyde, Banner/Hulk, etc. I know the mutagenist exists, but I want a more extreme character swap. A completely different play style with new strengths and weaknesses. I want to feel like I'm a different person, with even a new alignment. I know it's suggested to take the barbarian dedication on alchemist, but then my scientist side would also have barbarian abilities. I'd like to see the two personalities more segregated. I'd be happy with just focusing this as an alchemist option, but opening this up to an archetype with more mixing and matching would allow something closer to the movie Split, which would be pretty cool.
I suspect synthasist summoner where the summon is a transformation rather than a separate body would be good at filling that role, once that class archetype actually exists at least

We know it's at least on the devs' radar. I imagine the Synthesist will eventually exist in 2e, I just have no clue when.

I'm not touching Summoners until then :p


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I do think a class(or archetype) that takes some of the weird permanent mutation stuff from the 1e alchemist would be wonderful. I could see in mixing themes from starfinder evolutionist and 1e's shifter. Stuff that comes to mind is beast(from x-men), gamma mutants from incredible hulk stuff, and probably countless other examples that I have trouble coming up with right now.


Kekkres wrote:
Jedi Maester wrote:


I know this is probably on a lot of lists, but a mechanical way to play essentially two characters that swap between one body. Looking at Jekyll/Hyde, Banner/Hulk, etc. I know the mutagenist exists, but I want a more extreme character swap. A completely different play style with new strengths and weaknesses. I want to feel like I'm a different person, with even a new alignment. I know it's suggested to take the barbarian dedication on alchemist, but then my scientist side would also have barbarian abilities. I'd like to see the two personalities more segregated. I'd be happy with just focusing this as an alchemist option, but opening this up to an archetype with more mixing and matching would allow something closer to the movie Split, which would be pretty cool.
I suspect synthasist summoner where the summon is a transformation rather than a separate body would be good at filling that role, once that class archetype actually exists at least

That would be great for the alternate personality being another creature, I just hope they also include an alchemist version for the creative scientists out there!

Edited to be more inclusive!


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Jedi Maester wrote:
That would be great for the alternate personality being another creature, I just hope they also include an alchemist version for the mad scientists out there!

Please tread at least a little carefully with the "evil alternate personality" trope. Lots of people out there have DID or other conditions that get stereotyped as making them dangerous, and they're real human beings, even if Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is a classic.


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keftiu wrote:
Jedi Maester wrote:
That would be great for the alternate personality being another creature, I just hope they also include an alchemist version for the mad scientists out there!
Please tread at least a little carefully with the "evil alternate personality" trope. Lots of people out there have DID or other conditions that get stereotyped as making them dangerous, and they're real human beings, even if Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is a classic.

Good point! Thank you for the suggestion!


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Jedi Maester wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Jedi Maester wrote:
That would be great for the alternate personality being another creature, I just hope they also include an alchemist version for the mad scientists out there!
Please tread at least a little carefully with the "evil alternate personality" trope. Lots of people out there have DID or other conditions that get stereotyped as making them dangerous, and they're real human beings, even if Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is a classic.
Good point! Thank you for the suggestion!

Thank you for being so receptive! I've got quite a few loved ones who deal with psychosis, so it's a pet cause of mine - I really, really appreciate it.


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keftiu wrote:
Jedi Maester wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Jedi Maester wrote:
That would be great for the alternate personality being another creature, I just hope they also include an alchemist version for the mad scientists out there!
Please tread at least a little carefully with the "evil alternate personality" trope. Lots of people out there have DID or other conditions that get stereotyped as making them dangerous, and they're real human beings, even if Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is a classic.
Good point! Thank you for the suggestion!
Thank you for being so receptive! I've got quite a few loved ones who deal with psychosis, so it's a pet cause of mine - I really, really appreciate it.

No problem. Outside of your very valid point, it also opens up the plethora of possibilities for any kind of alignment situations! I would never call neither Banner nor the Hulk evil, and they should definitely be included within this concept.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
_shredder_ wrote:

A "caster" who isn't versatile in the slightest and has no spellslots and no support, control or AoE abilities but can shoot powerful energy beams every turn with fighter accuracy. A true single target blaster caster who fills the same role in a party as a ranged martial - the playtest analysis makes me very sure that the kineticist won't be able to fulfill this fantasy. I don't want to control the elements and do cool avatar stuff, I just want to go pew pew pew with magic all the time like wizard kirby or the magikoopas from super mario.

A mentally strong, physically weak "martial" without any magical abilities who sucks at making strikes, never has a weapon equipped but is still a useful party member just through their great wisdom, charisma and intelligence and excells at resourceless buffs and debuffs. A true nonmagical supporter who fills the same role in a party as bard. The alchemist kinda fits this description but is way too narrow thematically, too martial in general and just IMO not fun to play.

For the first I won't ask for an example, because that's the pattern of too many superheroes to count. I will say that I'm more hopeful that kineticist will provide some of that experience than you are. They did at least say that they would try.

For the second, could you offer an example of that kind of character out in the field?

For a specific media example, Golden Sun: The last epoch is one of my favorite fanrasy video ganes of all time. Kraden the scholar is your fith party member and a frail old man who isn't connected to elemental magic like the rest of the group and can probably barely lift a weapon, but is still an important party member because of his vast knowledge, life experience and strategic expertise.

For a more general example, think if the typical sidekick/assistant character who looks weak next to the hero but is just as important for the story in the end.

Mechanically I imagine such a class as an investigator who can choose to be INT, WIS or CHA based, can devise a strategem only for allies using their attack/spell attack modifier and trades weapon proficiencies and defense for mundane buff abilities that work similar to the bards composition cantrips. Such a character would excell at aiding others as well as using Bon Mot and would get similar feats to debuff other saves.


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Okay... but from the looks of things, Kraden doesn't actually involve himself in battle in that one. He's built as an NPC with a bunch of knowledge skills. He's legit bad at fighting, so he doesn't fight.

It seems like you want to make the entire class a workaround so that an archetype that's built around "can't contribute meaningfully in a fight (but is still useful)" can contribute meaningfully in a fight.

I'm not saying it's impossible mechanically, but it's going to be hard to make a case for it if the thing you actually want is limited enough as a cultural archetype that we can't even find one true example.

Now, I haven't played the game. I could be missing something. If Kraden is constantly throwing buffs from off-screen while you're in fights or something, then it's a much stronger position than I'm giving it credit for. Without that, though...?

Radiant Oath

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Comedy relief--Think Pippin and Merry. A character who advances the plot by screwing up. I have no idea how to create this without breaking the math of pf2, but it's an character type that common and missing. In certain other games, you can get this with bard, but bards in pf2 are much more power fantasy than comedy relief.

Distance-mancer--Vista from Worm, parahumans. She has the power to manipulate distance. Could be a single spell that scales. So you cast the spell, no character moves, but the distance between them is reduced or expanded. Maybe even a character who bends space like a gravity wave. Even on a virtual tabletop, this would be hard to represent.

Power thief--Kirby from Nintendo. 3.5 had the spellthief, which is kind of what I'm looking for. Someone who steals enemy abilities and uses them.


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Power Thief: Oh, yeah. There's all sorts of ways to run "blue mage", and PF2 doesn't really manage any of them. Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure how they *would*. There's a basic issue where the total power of almost any kind of Blue Mage you write is super-dependent on who exactly you're fighting.

I think that the problem with the comic relief character is similar to the problem with the noncombatant sage character. PF2 is predicated on the idea that every member of the party has the same level of power and effectiveness, and those archetypes out in the wild are built on the idea of major disparities there... which means that you try to take the archetype and cram in ways to make them *actually* effective without making them *look* effective, and that just gets weird and awkward.
For the comic relief... you might manage it with some sort of an archetype? Like, if you had some way to voluntarily take fails or critfails on some of your rolls (as a misfortune effect) to give you some sort of resource that would let you give success to your allies? Something like a friendlier version of the Curse Maelstrom? Possibly also give them a defensive feat or two tehmed around well-tiemd humorous pratfalls. ("The enemy actually missed... but now you're prone.")

It's not an unheard-of theme for the game. We do have Unexpected Sharpshooter already.

Still, I admit that even that's not going to give you the fantasy entirely. I think it's generally just a hard set of concepts to make fit.


For power thievery there are the two archetypes from Battlezoo Bestiary. One lets you poach spells from creatures you kill and the other lets you steal some of their abilities with feats. Hopefully that can scratch the itch at least a lil bit even if they aren't super extreme with what you can take.

I've been watching a friend play lots of DMCV lately, so now I'm jonesing for some way of getting an explosive super form. We already have hints of this in some spaces, the barbarian's rage feels rather super form-y and monks get Ki Form to go super sayan, but what I'm thinking of would be more supernatural and customizable than rage is.
Something akin to Dante where you activate your form and may gain some new abilities out of it, and can turn that form off early by doing a large attack. Iunno; I don't think I'm articulating it super clearly as to why it'd be different from existing options.

I'd also love some way of becoming "character who is composed of elemental matter" as well. Becoming fire, or water, or sand or what have you, probably as a higher level option.


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It's not like we haven't seen "tactician" or "commander" type characters in games before. Guild wars 1 had an interesting take on it with their paragon class which was a ranged martial that provided heavy support with chants and shouts flavored as songs and commands/orders. Sure it could attack, but support was its primary function and it was pretty good at it from what I remember. FF Tactics had the orator which flavored everything as pure speechcraft. D&D4 had the warlord which was full of support powers based on int or cha.

It's nothing too out of bounds as far as pf2e goes either. A class comprised of marshal-like auras (but with actual range), one for all style commands, and a splash of special martial attacks that provide setup to allies and you have a pretty decent package I'd think.


Great! We have examples now. Part of the point of examples is that it grounds things in what they are and what they aren't, and what has actually worked in at least one place before.

- The Mediator from FF tactics is cool. They've got actions that they can take for encouragement buffs to allies, and discouragement debuffs to enemies, up to and including confusion and dominate effects. They're also decently capable with knives and guns. If I was transferring directly, I'd call it a class that eventually got Master-level proficiency in simple weapons and martial firearms, but no skill in other martial weapons. Then you give them a bunch of effects using things like Bon Mot and Intimidate, with various ways to juice that up, and to be able to apply them to targets that, you shouldn't, strictly speaking, be allowed to apply them to. Ideally, their conversational effects are good enough that it's possible to build a version of the character who won't necessarily want to pull the gun out every fight, but the gun is there if (for whatever reason) they need it.

- Paragon is... broadly similar. They've got a lot of support powers, and they're primarily a buffing class, but they also have solid capability with a ranged weapon to fall back on.

- I'm mostly going to skip talking about the 4th ed stuff because taking it to recursive TTRPGs strips away some of the value of this exercise, but in a lot of ways, warlord as presented was broadly similar.

And yeah, this is not a concept that is well-supported. You can take Fighter/Marshal or Gunslinger/Marshal and get the barest hint of it, but in order to get the kind of focus on the ally-buffing side that this concept really wants, you'd have to make it at least half the budget of your class (with whatever's left over being taken up by martial stuff), and we don't currently have a class like that.


Oh, I'm not saying it's currently well supported. I only meant that the abilities/mechanics would be very much in line with some of what the system already offers.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
AceofMoxen wrote:
Comedy relief--Think Pippin and Merry. A character who advances the plot by screwing up. I have no idea how to create this without breaking the math of pf2, but it's an character type that common and missing. In certain other games, you can get this with bard, but bards in pf2 are much more power fantasy than comedy relief.

One of the class "pitches" I've thrown out was a Luckbender of some sort, with one possible subclass being the ability to take on an automatic critical failure (or redirect it off of an ally) or double up on a misfortune effect in order to power up some kind of buff. Easiest I suppose would be to allow you to use a focus spell without expending a focus point, for example.

But in any case, that might be one way to do it. Your character is deliberately hapless and a chaos magnet, but your team is stronger for it.

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Something I've struggled with lately is something at least aesthetically like Final Fantasy XIV's Gunbreaker, a gunslinger-style warrior who supplements their gunblade with cool magic with maybe a side of Wizard With A Gun. Admittedly it's less that the tools to make a character like this don't EXIST in the game (combination weapons, the Gunslinger and Magus classes, the Way of the Spellshot and the new Way of the Triggerbrand). It's that (as I've been educated on thoroughly) none of these options really work well together (especially in terms of action economy, which seems to be a REALLY BIG DEAL in this edition), and some just don't work all that well (such as combination weapons generally not working as well as owning the constituent weapons and swapping between them, or taking a regular firearm and attaching a bayonet or reinforced stock).


Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Something I've struggled with lately is something at least aesthetically like Final Fantasy XIV's Gunbreaker, a gunslinger-style warrior who supplements their gunblade with cool magic with maybe a side of Wizard With A Gun. Admittedly it's less that the tools to make a character like this don't EXIST in the game (combination weapons, the Gunslinger and Magus classes, the Way of the Spellshot and the new Way of the Triggerbrand). It's that (as I've been educated on thoroughly) none of these options really work well together (especially in terms of action economy, which seems to be a REALLY BIG DEAL in this edition), and some just don't work all that well (such as combination weapons generally not working as well as owning the constituent weapons and swapping between them, or taking a regular firearm and attaching a bayonet or reinforced stock).

So... "Gunblades exist, and are kind of bad. We wish they were not as bad as they are."

Would a magus with a non-terrible version of the gunblade be enough to make this one work for you, or is there something else missing?


Some kind of elemental summoner.

The inquisitor with the judgement ability.

Drow elves as their own ancestry or versatile heritage.


Sheath that is also works as instrument.

This must be level 0 common or 0gp.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Two examples I can think of off hand...

The Caster that has to "dig deep" to pull off a spell after their reserves are tapped. I believe Raistlin does it once when he attacks what he thinks is his brother. Psychic has a similar feat or ability where they get a nosebleed, but "Psychic" has never really fit well in a fantasy type setting. Sadly I'm looking for something other than Vancian casting really.

The second - and kind of adjacent to the Necro Summoner - is a martial caster/summoner that summons things to "fight" for you, but they only last for the instance. Like, summoning a burly, shield bearer to block an attack for you, then they disappear. Thematically, the PC does nothing on their own. Short of calling in these "favors," the PC doesn't have any special abilities. I want to say Donovan from Darkstalkers has a similar powerset, but it's been years... decades since I've played any of them, so I'm probably misremembering his moves.

Radiant Oath

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Sanityfaerie wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Something I've struggled with lately is something at least aesthetically like Final Fantasy XIV's Gunbreaker, a gunslinger-style warrior who supplements their gunblade with cool magic with maybe a side of Wizard With A Gun. Admittedly it's less that the tools to make a character like this don't EXIST in the game (combination weapons, the Gunslinger and Magus classes, the Way of the Spellshot and the new Way of the Triggerbrand). It's that (as I've been educated on thoroughly) none of these options really work well together (especially in terms of action economy, which seems to be a REALLY BIG DEAL in this edition), and some just don't work all that well (such as combination weapons generally not working as well as owning the constituent weapons and swapping between them, or taking a regular firearm and attaching a bayonet or reinforced stock).

So... "Gunblades exist, and are kind of bad. We wish they were not as bad as they are."

Would a magus with a non-terrible version of the gunblade be enough to make this one work for you, or is there something else missing?

I'd like it to, but from what I understand, Magus has a sort of tightly controlled rhythm to its action economy: taking time to Reload gets in the way of your Spellstrike, and it sounds like the only ways to reduce that is to start from the base Gunslinger.


Playable monster races as classes/ancestry packages. I would picture the ancestry as granting you access to a subset of monster classes. As an example, the Brute ancestry might unlock Troll, Ogre, and Giant. While the Beast ancestry might allow for Gorgons, Basilisks, and Gargoyles.

This type of addition to a party is represented in games like Final Fantasy Tactics where monsters can be bred and recruited. It could also be used to allow for a Pokemon-like pairing between two characters where one is the trainer and the other the monster. I could see a monster tamer class but I feel like that would be very close to the summoner and doesn't allow for play styles where players want to be the monster.

There is also a lack of damaged focused divine classes. I'd like to see two branches, one that is a divine blaster. Perhaps a real hellfire and brimstone-type preacher that has spells focused around punishing evil. I could give an example, but I think we can all picture the type.

The other would be a divine melee monster. See Father Alexander Anderson from Hellsing for an example of the type. Limited spell casting but enhancements that make them something like the old smite paladin. Or, if people feel like that niche is filled by the magus, you could make it a holy warrior that is a little like a barbarian who challenges single targets to trial by combat and gets bonuses to defenses against targets that aren't their focus.

There's also the incredibly skilled weapon user who doesn't use that skill to focus on damage. The character has legendary bonuses to combat maneuvers but only master for actually attacking. A Swashbuckler type but rather than one focused on panache and finishers one who's focused on utterly dominating a foe with all kinds of maneuvers and dirty tricks. Kind of a Jack Sparrow or Dread Pirate Roberts character who doesn't always end combat in a lethal fashion because they don't often need to.


Just one more thought on the monsters as PCs idea, it could also allow for the cursed to another form character archetype to exist.


Some fleshcrafting/mutation class. My old PF1 alchemist vivisectionist/master chemist. I LOVED that character. Adding more arms, tumor familiar,monstruous ability reliant on medicine and mutagene. Some special action like spit acid, crushing tentacle, turtle retreat... Something clearly fleshcrafted

A "double personnality"/possessed archetype would be great (like master chemist in PF1).

An Inquisitor character (divine magus?) Like a priest of Sigmar or wow paladin.But I think you can accomplish that by giving subclass to magus or cleric and a couple of specific feat.

Some non-magical support like field marshal. Action like battle plan (bonus if you follow the plan), reaction to help on a check, banner and heraldry, teamwork feat return (sniping duo archetype style)

That's all...


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AceofMoxen wrote:
Comedy relief--Think Pippin and Merry. A character who advances the plot by screwing up. I have no idea how to create this without breaking the math of pf2, but it's an character type that common and missing. In certain other games, you can get this with bard, but bards in pf2 are much more power fantasy than comedy relief. {. . .}

Now I want to see Inspector Jacques Clouseau and The Three Stooges go to Golarion . . . .

Radiant Oath

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I will say, the Unexpected Shootist archetype from Guns and Gears is a great example of a kind of "comedy relief" kind of character AceofMoxen is describing, but I can see the appeal of having a similar archetype or something that isn't so heavily reliant on firearms.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
AceofMoxen wrote:
Comedy relief--Think Pippin and Merry. A character who advances the plot by screwing up. I have no idea how to create this without breaking the math of pf2, but it's an character type that common and missing. In certain other games, you can get this with bard, but bards in pf2 are much more power fantasy than comedy relief. {. . .}

Now I want to see Inspector Jacques Clouseau and The Three Stooges go to Golarion . . . .

Or Maxwell Smart. :-)

I had a concept along the lines for such a character. Their high Dex (and the effects thereof) would be attributed to luck more than prowess. So they'd bungle into balancing just right, setting off traps safely, or hitting enemies unexpectedly. The same might be said for Perception, being able to act as a players as if the PC saw X, yet without the PC having that knowledge, i.e. stumbling into the ninja.
As a reskin it works fine IMO, though it does have the air of trying to mislead one's enemies for free. As long as they deem the PC a worthy threat, don't underestimate, then it should play fair.

----
And Wakfu.
Maybe it's a bit too zany, but there are many fun concepts in that worth playing or exploring, though the skewed power levels and iffy physics might be an issue in PF2 & Golarion as well.


Here are some concepts we still can't do in Pathfinder 2 (but the first one, you could probably get close to with some reskinning and mild adjustment of a Dual-Cursed Oracle's Haunted and Wasting Curses in Pathfinder 1).


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I was actually thinking about a character that's lucky, but entirely inept. Something that gives a big permanent typeless penalty to checks (or specific checks) but also gives you two rolls and take the better. Any time the second roll is the better, and successful, you succeed through sheer luck despite your ineptitude.


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It would be cool if you could play a character like Ben10 who goes all in on assuming different battleforms, without any spellcasting taking up the power budget.


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I think the best thing to do would be a class/archetype whose power is luck....and maybe have some feats or a subclass that is themed around being incompetence or appearing to be. And probably slap the uncommon tag on it since slapstick/comedy characters like that totally depends on the tone and style of game the players are going for. And branching it out for the core theme could mean characters like Domnino, Black Cat, and Long-Shot can be represented, who are skilled in their own right but can also benefit from their luck powers.


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I really just want an archetype built around using cold magic.
Nothing major, just something that would complement existing spellcasters to give the warcraft ice mage flavor, a better Winter patron witch or fit the cold using magic using character trope as well as perhaps grant a melee class some cold abilities to get a death knight flavor.

The minion necromancer sounds great. Maybe a summoner archetype who's eidolon is a swarm? Probably better if its some kind of swarm class. It would hit the minion necromancer but an option might allow for fiend minions and fit the demonic minion summoner.

Shaman that uses spirits in some fashion, hope that's what it turns out to be if we see it


Martial that uses dex to damage that isn't a thief rogue.

Martial that uses Cha to atk/damage (specially with starknifes).

Throwing builds could use more help what so ever.

Based on how kineticist was done, we will probably need a way to replicate kinetic knight. Probably will need a way to replicate all of the kineticist archetypes to be honest.

Shifter still needs to be done.

Ninja is still not really possible, not well anyways.

Arcanist still can't really be done, no wizard with sorcerer multiclass is not a good replacement.

Magus that focuses on multi-touch spells is not really possible what so ever. Related to this, true warpriest and self buffing martial spellcasters are not really possible. All we got is vague facimiles.

We lack a true summoner the "summoner" we got is bad at actually using summons. We lack a Spiritualist, again the "summoner" we got is bad at actually dealing with phantoms.

Finally, we really lack a way to make weapons out of X. Sure we have soul forge or whatever, but that one is 1/day and meh. I am talking about stuff much deeper and often than that. For example: Force athame (magus), Phantom weapons (spiritualist), Shadows weapons (gloomblade fighter and rogue), etc. I guess improvised weapons is also missing.

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