Kekkres's page

i just use witches+ and call it a day, I don't think paizo will fix them any time soon, if ever, so I've settled on my homebrew of choice that I am happy with

I've played a N leaning NE Aasimar Thief that resented the impression that his parentage should somehow determine his goodness...

reminds me of the first major villain of rise of the runelords is an assimar cultist of lamassu who resented the expectations and assumptions people placed on her by the nature of her birth

yeah, i think two boosts + free + flaw makes the most sense as the standard going forward now that it can more easily be said to represent trends and expectations rather than something that is mechanically enforced and requires unorthodox members of an ancestor to jump through hoops to achieve their idea. whereas +boost+free is literally just flavor text for all intents and purposes post errata.

If Monk isn't the Asian class, why are all the Monk weapons out of South and Southeast Asia? How come the katar and the nunchaku are Monk weapons, but the adze and mambele aren't?

There's a very particular coding of where in the world Monks come from, despite the neutral lore.

I just miss and where monk weapons included basically all swords spears and polearms

On the point of barbarian, the word barbarian was a general-purpose word for foreigner in classical greek, it was derogatory yes but it was applied to literally everyone who did not speak greek from slavs to Persians to Egyptians to Berbers to Romans, and as such didn't really have any stereotype associated with it implicitly other than a general sense of superiority and being more cultured than such people. the modern imagery for barbarian comes from writings regarding the sacking of Rome, with "barbarians at the gates" using an at the time utterly archaic greek word because at the time writing things down in prose reminiscent of archaic greek writing was how authors of the time showed how cultured and sophisticated they where much like Latin was in the middle ages. from there it was adopted into several germanic and romance languages, generally used to refer to invaders or other foreign threats, generally with again a connotation of superiority over them. Anyway, long story short, while the term is defiantly derogatory I don't think I would consider it a slur because it is not associated with any specific group, but is rather simply an insult.

anyway back to the question at hand, I think the answer is one should have both specific and generic classes to cover both broader ideas and more focused concepts.

I never could follow the anti blaster rhetoric. Seems fine to me.

the issue with blasters is two-fold, they just fall apart against severe solo bosses that they ap's love throwing at you, and two, they lack staying power; if you want blasting to be your game plan you will run out of relevant spell slots alarmingly quick and be forced to fall back on low-level utility and control spells which are precisely the sort of spells people who want blasters don't care to use.

To be frank, I felt a LOT of those guys were way overblown. And then of course you had the confusion of no writer knowing when to use "mythic" or just tack on CRs, so you had mythic guys next to demon lords and such that technically weren't mythic, which was needlessly confusing.

On another note, I am baffled as to how Baba Yaga got to be one of THE mythic characters in the PF lore. In her own lore, she was outsmarted by a small girl and a talking cat and dog and was unable to catch the former when they ran away from her.

baba Yaga is.... incredibly inconsistent in folklore, in some she is a human witch, in others closer to a fae being, a spirit of the forest, and in others still closer to an old god with dementia, she is sometimes a monster, and a villain, sometimes a trickster, sometimes she is a wise mentor and sometimes she tests the hero to determine their worth, her power ranges from "old lady with strength like iron and flying pestle" to complete dominion over the iron forest and can see prophecies and fate.

So... something like "god-blooded"?

From my understanding of the lore, though, that doesn't seem to be a thing that happens all that often in Golarion... and if it did happen with any frequency, I feel like we would have heard about it. the god-blooded are almost by their very nature Not Subtle.

Does anyone who actually knows the lore have any insight on this? I'll admit that my own [pertinent knowledge is quite shallow.

based on my reading the Nephilim were basically only born very very early on and living Nephilim are descendants of those original pairings, these offspring were deemed aberrant and cursed to inspire hostility in others, leading to them being largely hunted down both by mortals, and some other gods, as such they live secretive isolationist lives to avoid endangering their people by causing conflict. they are also 11 feet tall

nephelheim are the souless giants who where decendants of angels and human women, biblically, they don't have anything to do with demigods

edit totes forgot that pathfinder actually used that word already, please ignore

So here's an idea I had today; Nephilim as a versatile heritage.

how is that different from an assimar?

I'm sorry, but in a thread about what we want from mythic (yes, it says stories, but I consider it more general), saying 'why not just start at higher level' is pretty danged insulting from my point of view.

explain to me the difference between a level 1 character with mithic powers, and a level 5 character? like, "I am mythic but there are hundreds of normal people better than me in every way" does not seem like something that makes sense. And The Raven Black was saying that they would like to have low level mythic to utilize incredible abilities from the start of the game... which is doable by just starting at a higher level. if mythic is at all related to power, having it start anywhere but end game doesn't make any sense to me because the powerlevel you are looking for... already exists.

pauljathome wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

With Mythic, I would like my PCs to be able, from 1st-level, to adventure in places which usually require high-level abilities (the planes, space, the atmosphere, underwater). And interact with high-level creatures in non-combat ways without feeling way overwhelmed.

And how is that any different than a mid level PC who has those abilities through magic items or class or ancestral feats?

How is your mythic farm boy shmoozing with a God any different than my level 12 bard shmoozing with a God? Either your mythic system just improves Farm Boys diplomacy or it just side steps it completely.

The difference is I can play and enjoy it from the very first game session, just after creating the PC.

And yes, using the NPC rules of a low-level NPC with specific high abilities (often skills) as required by their role in the story could be a path to PF2 Mythic rules.

so play in a campaign that starts at a higher level? Its worth noting that level is a mechanical abstraction for the convenience of the system and the fact that adventurers usually start at one is more for character creation ease than anything, this is not something that actually "exists" in golation, people starting off do not default to level one and grow in 20 measurable incriments anymore than hp is a measurable metric. having more powerful abilities at lower level so you can fight more powerful things just makes you higher level.

I know this is probably on a lot of lists, but a mechanical way to play essentially two characters that swap between one body. Looking at Jekyll/Hyde, Banner/Hulk, etc. I know the mutagenist exists, but I want a more extreme character swap. A completely different play style with new strengths and weaknesses. I want to feel like I'm a different person, with even a new alignment. I know it's suggested to take the barbarian dedication on alchemist, but then my scientist side would also have barbarian abilities. I'd like to see the two personalities more segregated. I'd be happy with just focusing this as an alchemist option, but opening this up to an archetype with more mixing and matching would allow something closer to the movie Split, which would be pretty cool.

I suspect synthasist summoner where the summon is a transformation rather than a separate body would be good at filling that role, once that class archetype actually exists at least

So some time ago, I did a write-up on my conversion of the Abysians/Lavaborn as well as the early age of Arcoscephale from dominions, and I had intended to do conversions for that game but quickly got distracted, I am now motivated to pick it back up and while I can make no promises to convert the whole game, I can at least provide everyone with a few new nations to slot into their world

Before we start a summary of Dominions for context, the conceit of the game is that the head god of all creation has up and vanished without a trace. Before too long every nation of the world has its pet pretender to the throne viewing for the title of head god. These pretenders range from archmages to ancient heroes, to giant monsters from before time, to old allies, generals, or lovers of the previous head god.

the game takes place over three ages, and many of the nations I will convert will have separate entries for each age.

1. the early age: In this era, the world is young and wild, the world is full of monsters, magic, and a lot fewer people. People of this era are armed largely with bronze or basic iron, and have a weak understanding of the magic that fills the world around them,
2. the middle age: People have risen to prominence in this era and begun to take control, science has advanced rapidly and understanding of magic has grown with it. The monsters of the previous era have become scarce and more fantastical races have begun to lose ground to humans.
3. 3 the late age: Humans have now become the dominant people of a world that is clearly in decline in this era the magic of the world has begun to fade and many nations have been dealing with great tragedies. a once fantastical world has been mapped and a world of mysticism has been replaced with one of steel and engineering, what magic does remain tends towards death, soul and blood magic which are the least diminished paths of magic, if also the least moral.

This of course has little bearing on any use in an actual pathfinder game, I'm more just giving it as context for the world these nations come from, so context out of the way, let's move on to Early Age Xibalba, "Vigil of the Sun" a nation based on Aztec and Mayan culture and specifically the Mayan underworld. and it's god Camaztoz.
Xibalba is a vast realm of dark caverns hidden underneath the dense forests and jungles of the surface. According to Legend the sun and moon would pass through the labyrinthine caverns of Xibalba on their daily journey to the eastern horizon. On this journey, they were guarded by the bat people, Zotz, that dwelled in the dark reaches of the Xibalban underworld. Being almost blind, they did not covet the splendor of the sun. No one has seen the sun or moon pass through Xibalba in ages, but the Zotz keep their vigil and their traditions alive. But in recent times the bat people have lost their purpose and the priestly rulers of Xibalba look to the surface world to once more bask in the splendor of the sun and moon. The zots are led by priest-kings from various cities and only the priesthood represents any centralized power. They still train the sacred Sun guides to this day, once tasked with guarding the celestial entities through their dark world. Only recently have the zots come into regular contact with the people above and begun to adopt their technology and practices.

Ancestry
Zotz
Rare
The batlike Zotz are thought of, by those that know of them at all as primitive and childlike in their adoration of stories and legends, and while it is true that ages of isolation within caverns have left their technology and society in a less than advanced state the Zotz are not so simple as outsiders might think. Eternally curious, quick to learn, and always observant, the Zotz are quickly adopting ideas and technologies from the surface, bringing advancement to their society with remarkable speed, and they take a great deal of pride in the legends and folktales of their past, no matter how impossible the surface dwellers might say they are.
You Might

- Seek to live out the glory of your people's folk tales as a guide and ambassador to celestial objects.
- Find yourself confused when interacting with a world built around vision and how necessary other people find it.
- Find the vast openness of the outside world both intimidating and exciting.

Others Might
- Find your amazement at the commonplace technology or the surface endearing.
- Worry that you are always eavesdropping on their conversations
- Find themselves regularly startled at how you can move around so silently.

Physical Description
Zotz are a slender race that stand about half a head shorter than a human on average, not counting their large black wings. Their skin tends to be a dull grey color and portions of it are covered in fine black fur such as their batlike heads and forearms. Their eyes are universally grey and unless a source of light or movement catches their attention are always staring straight ahead, unfocused. In contrast, the large wide ears of the Zotz are constantly active flicking to focus on different sources of sounds in their surroundings.
Society
The society of the Zots is a very decentralized one of countless villages and towns and is bound together by shared culture and history rather than any actual nation or government. Settlements are led by the priesthood and are largely agrarian in nature with farmers, hunters, and simple craftsmen composing the vast majority of the population. Those Zotz that show exceptional potential are trained to be sun guides and tasked with guarding the villages against threats.

Alignment and Religion
The primary religion of the Zotz is based largely around a pantheon of minor deities known as the Teotl. These beings vary widely in terms of personality, alignment, and domain but share an underlying theme of the importance of cycles, whether those be cycles found in nature, those in personal life, or in civilization, or even those on a more cosmic scale. The idea that beginnings and ends bleed in a continuously changing pattern is deeply ingrained in Zotz society. And as such zots tend toward neutral alignments and towards “big picture” worldviews wherein they are merely small facets of a much grander whole in which all things are temporary by their very nature, and that one must always be seeking new beginnings rather than clinging to loss or trying to force what one has to last forever.
There is a secondary religion of zots that is far more unsavory. Known as the Ah Nakom or heart-seekers, these cultists instead follow beings known as the Onaqui; cruel fiends that teach that complacency and peace foster stagnation and eventually decay and it is only through fear and turmoil that societies and people ever find a reason to improve. As such members of the Ah Nakom thus seeks to spread fear and instability throughout Xibalba, kidnapping and sacrificing those with especially peaceful lives and offering the hearts of such people to their masters, hence their name. All of this is allegedly done for the betterment of all, and while most cultists do believe that, the Onaqui are simply sadistic beings who feed on fear and suffering and use the cult as a means of sustaining themselves.

Adventurers
Zotz might Leave Xibalba and venture into the wider world for any number of reasons, but curiosity almost always plays a part, For the Zots, the surface was always thought of as a semi-mythical place, and the chance to voyage through it and learn about it firsthand is remarkably enticing to many a young Zotz.

Names
Ah Chun Caa, Bitoln, Bolom, Buluc Chabta, Cabrakan, Camulatz, Cauac, Chacoch, Hozanek, Hun, Kianto, Mitnal, Oxlahuntiku, Tzacol, Tzarab, Uc Zip, Xecotcovach
Hit Points: 6
Size: Medium
Speed 25 Feet
Ability Boots: Dexterity, Wisdom, Free
Ability Flaw: Strength
Language: Undercommon, Zotz. Additional Languages equal to your intelligence mod if it's positive. Choose from Abyssal, Aklo, Common, Terran, and any other languages you have access to.
Traits: Humanoid, Zotz
Blind: The eyes of a Zotz are almost completely vestigial, and can do little more than differentiate light from darkness and identify large or sudden movements. Sight is a vague sense for zotz, they gain a +2 on any save against visual effects, and cannot read writing that is purely visual in nature.Echolocation The primary Sense of the Zots is their hearing which is incredibly precise. Hearing is a precise sense for the zotz and with a series of ultrasonic chirps and clicks they can quickly form a mental map of the surroundings detailed enough to allow them to avoid danger and target enemies.
Heritage
Fox Zotz
You are much larger than most of your kin standing half a head taller than most men with a long almost canine head compared to the flat faces of most of your kin. You have 10 base Hp and are trained in Intimidation and gain a +1 circumstance bonus to coercion, your large bulky frame easily coming off as threatening even if it is not in your nature.
Vampire Zotz
Much like your namesake you are best known for supplementing your diet with blood drawn from living creatures, usually livestock. You gain a Fang attack that deals 1d4 piercing damage, it is in the knife weapon group and has the agile finesse and unarmed weapon traits. Whenever you critically hit using your fang, you apply the weapon's critical specialization effect and gain 1 temporary hp per damage die. This temporary hp is removed after one minute.
Leaf-Nosed Zotz
You are a nimble zotz noted for their very flat face and large nose, known among your kin as the swiftest and agile as well as the most skilled fliers, You gain the Flitter Feat, are trained in acrobatics and gain a +2 circumstance on checks to maneuver in flight and tumble through.
White Tent Zotz
You barely resemble your other kin much at all with the dark fur of most zotz replaced with a dense white puffy fur that almost makes you appear spherical when you are sitting. You are small instead of medium and can fit through spaces even smaller than that, You gain quick squeeze even if you do not meet the prerequisites and are treated as tiny for the purposes of squeezing.

Level 1 Ancestory Feats
Flitter
Move Like a Whisper
Piercing Screech
Scorpion Familiar
Zotz Lore
Zotz Spell Familiarity

Level 5 Ancestory Feats
Attentive Eavesdropper
Cavern Crawler
Envenom Weapon
Fable Collector
Zotz Spell Secrecy

Level 9 Ancestory Feats
Cavern Clinger
Chthonic Echoes
Deafening Screech
Practiced Flight
Wing Step

Level 13 Ancestory Feats
Experienced Flyer
Move Like a Shadow
Zotz Spell Expertise

Level 17 Ancestory Feats
Echo Mastery

feel free to leave feedback this was very much eyeballed and at least some part of it is almost certainly badly worded and imbalanced
Sometime later this week I will put out the zotz adjacent Xibalba content including

Items
Machauitl (Level 0 martial weapon)
Obsidian Razor (Level 7 Specific weapon)

Creature
Beast Bats (Level 2 Fiend)
Jaguar (Level 4 Animal)
Onaqui (Level 13 Fiend)
Ozelotl (Level 4 Fiend)
Wooden Warrior (Level 2 Construct)

Characters
Chek Ahau (Level 13 Priest-King)
Chamiaholom and Chamiabac (Level 18 Onaqui Priests)

NPC
various zotz

Archetypes
Sun Guide

Edit: I'm also a little disappointed this probably means they will be two action. One action blasts was a nice feel for the class.

yes, this, PLEASE paizo stick to one action blasts,

Archdracolich wrote:

I crave playable serpentfolks, nagaji just aren't it for me

Okay. What is inadequate about them? What would a race of serpentfolk need to have to scratch that itch for you?

that they look like conspiricy theory reptilians and absolutely nothing like snakes?

The more I think about it, the more I think there are actually two distinct classes here-

1) Take the Champion chassis, then substitute "skills package" that the Rogue/Investigator get for the "martial armor/weapon/save proficiencies" so you have focus spells, but not spell slots.

2) Divine version of the Magus, so you have spell slots and strong combat mechanics but you aren't super skilled.

I think trying to do both in one package is probably a mistake. The PF1 Inquisitor had the issue of "a big pile of unrelated mechanics stuffed into one box" that became especially problematic with archetyping (so trade away the stuff that doesn't work with your basic schtick for stuff that does). PF2 has so far held the line on classes not being thematically or mechanically muddled.

I think skills package, with divine focus spells and the ability to use divine scrolls/wands/staves (but not actual spell slots) is the way to go

my "alchemist fix" has a few moving parts, while we are sharing things we would like to see.

1) Organized alchemy, at level 1 an alchemist can draw any alchemical item as part of an action to activate, strike with or toss it (see below)

2)Alchemical alacrity (complete rework)
When you use quick alchemy, you may do so as a free action instead of an action, once you do, you may not use alchemical alacrity again for 10 minutes.

3+4) General action
Toss (>)
Requirement: you are holding an item of bulk 1 or less in your hands
effect: you toss an object you to a distant square where it lands on the ground unattended, Objects of L bulk or less can be tossed to any square up to 20 feet away. Objects with a bulk of 1 can be tossed to any space within 15 feet. (far lobber improves these ranges)

Catch (R)
Trigger: An item is tossed through or to the square you currently occupy and you have an open hand.
Effect: You catch the tossed item, and are immediately holding or wielding it in your hand.

do i think this is likely? no but it has made alchemist a million times more dynamic in my games.

Fair, but they're also the only ones that can fight at range underwater without a feat.

that is like, the most microscopic of niches, like i think in all my years of playing dnd and dnd ajacent games, there have only been two battles where that would even be helpful, one against sahuagin raiders who where dragging people underwater, and another where there was a krakken attacking a ship from below the surface.

but they dont "avenge" the faithful, they are spies and assassins and sabatiours, who cut away problems for their deity. you have to remember that in golarion religion is not a communal cultural thing, many households have worshipers of all different gods let alone towns, it is a relationship of respect and duty between the worshiper and the god. it is not faith at all, it is obediance

the biggest thing i want, and my go to homebrew for alchemests is making it a free action to draw an alchemical item, not just bombs, and not as a feat but backed in level one feature, you dont need to use extra actions to get your options out

Went looking for more info on Amurrun shamanism, and it seems like they take a similar approach to the Rivethun:

[quote-Extinction Curse #2]Catfolk generally view religion as an unnecessarily slavish way to codify ideals and philosophical teachings.

animism is still.... religion though? Religions do not need gods to be religions

I guess you are saying the ability itself wouldn't work because the golem is immune to magic? I mean, striking runes are magical too but I have never seen a GM rule those out.

striking runes enhance a weapon, a golem is not immune to them the same way they are not immune to the extra strike given by a haste spell, because they aren't the thing the magic is even impacting, whereas extract element is an explicitly magical action that targets the golem, thus they would no-sell it as written

Edit: I think what we are learning here is that golem antimagic wasnt the best thought out ability from a future proofing perspective

....

so what you are suggesting is that kineticists should be allowed, if they give up their utility, and aoe feats and any real hope of ever taking an archetype, to be granted the option of being a worse fighter with a shortbow and 0 bow feats, am i understanding correctly? this would actually be a somewhat amusing outcome since shortbow fighter out damaged a focused blaster kineticist at all levels post like... 3 in pf1 too

Castilliano wrote:

Errenor wrote:

Guntermench wrote:

Dubious Scholar wrote:

That's true. I'd forgotten about them using handwraps as their rune source, so unlike a spellcaster they actually have martial accuracy and damage if they punch the golem.

Still probably very unfun for them, but.

Also, thinking about it - it really makes the melee air blast seem awkward if I can do more damage by just kicking the enemy.

Aren't golems immune to nonlethal? The Kineticist would be punching at a -2.

True. So, it seems having these 2-3 sp gauntlets or Knuckle Dusters could be useful.

As far as I understand they work perfectly well with handwraps.

What supports the idea that Handwraps work with Knuckle Dusters?

The more important question: Why wouldn't you just rune the Knuckle Dusters?

because runed knuckle dusters would not boost your blasts?

on the subject of "respectful" shamans who would they even be respectful to? based on what I've read the term originally referred to religious figures in Siberia, Mongolia and associated areas but has since been applied to native Americans from Inuit through to indigenous beliefs in Peru, not to mention aboriginal priests in Australia, and spitualists in Africa and through the Indian ocean. Other than a general belief in spirits these groups have basically nothing in common that you could use as a basis to ground what a Golarion shaman is.

I feel like that would still be an issue though. Running into a golem and just not being able to use any of your class, unless maybe you had one specific feat.

Although really I think that's more an issue with golem antimagic and how its worded.

The "too bad to be true" rule probably covers it, but I'd expect different GMs to come to different conclusions on it.

not really? like the alternative is to pretend that impulses are just not magical effects? the only way i can interpret this as not being the case is if we pretend that "magical effects" is just a bit of flavor text and it only explicitly applies to spells, which is... unlikely.

I think it's safe to say that it would be bad if Golems were just... immune to kineticists basically.

it would absolutely be bad, however i dont see any other way to interperate it, "A golem is immune to spells and magical abilities other than its own" and elemental blast is explicitly a "magical ability"

Simple question. Impulses are magical, Golem magic immunity will make all of theair blasts useless correct?

that is my reading, yes, golem antimagic is a bit... ill defined in some cases (such as weapon runes) but since impulses are a unique magical action that explicitly gets countered by things that counter spells, they almost certanly count

So since i will be on vacation for most of next week and will not have time to do any more playtests I want to go over my overall evaluation of the kineticists based on the playtests ive run compared to my initial thoughts here https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43nul?Collecting-my-thoughts

The class is really cool and has a lot of things going for it, but it also has some pretty substantial flaws, both overall and with certain options. going over the latter first. Flame eruption is just worse than all the other early overflows for no good reason, bad damage, bad scaling bad aoe, its just... bad compared to tidal hands, areal boomerang or tremor. also the water critical is just awful, since while splash is valuable, you can never plan for your crit so the chance of it doing more than 1-4 more damage on your target is just luck.

onto deeper problems, this class seems to want to be mobile a lot of its impulses are centered on the kineticist and ideally you want to be bouncing around the map to get into position however they don't have the action economy to do this at all, their offensive overflow impulses are all at least 2+1 actions leading to awkward gaps after you reposition since you have a remarkable lack of one action options leaving you nothing to do but blast, which leads us to the second problem.

Elemental blast kind of sucks, it is just a series of 8 unimpressive martial weapons, fire and air at least have unique attributes but earth and especially water just have nothing going for them that makes the blast interesting to use. Sure they can switch from melee to ranged but the only difference here is that melee does like 2 more damage since you cant afford to invest heavily in strength, and air, oh god that d4 hurts. Can you imagine how sad it made my level 6 players when they crit a high level enemy and got all of 8 damage out of it? The fact that they rely on the same gather elements as your impulses also leads clunkier turns than they need to be. AOO is also a concern but none of the adventure combats i used had aoo in them, so i cant comment how big an issue it is in practice.

overmore, more than any other class i feel kineticist lives or dies by the encounter they find themselves in. Are they in a moderate counter with a ton of -3s or -4s? the kineticist will feast. even if they are against a small group of on or above level characters with low reflex they can have a good time. but if they are against a small group with even moderate reflex, or any single character at all, they just feel worthless since you cannot target other saves meaningfully, and your already low damage gets halved more often then not, and if you are against a solo boss who happens to have high reflex? well at that point the kineticist cannot really do anything at all, which leads me into the biggest point

The damage across the board just isn't good enough, stunning revelation i know but past the very early levels the kineticist will struggle more and more as their damage output lags behind increased enemy hp. now this is true of all classes but the fact that in the time it takes a kineticist to gain between 2.5 to 4.5 damage when using a 3 damage impulse foes have gained 40ish hp its just a feels bad moment when you use your tidal hands, and all three enemies save, taking 9 damage each an doing nothing to actually get them killed any faster.

Now this is not to say I dislike the class, as i said in my previous review the class is cool as hell and a lot of its abilities FEEL good its just you play everything out and realize that at the end of all your cool s$+@ you haven't actually accomplished much of anything.

And as for the hot button topic of blasting, in addition to the general injection of interesting that generic blasts need, i hope that we end up with a selection of single target overflow impulses so that kineticists can really go all in on blowing up that one guys face. I am concerned with the kineticist in its current state but hopeful that paizo can salvage it into something that could become one of my favorite classes.

aobst128 wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Kekkres wrote:

Unicore wrote:

I used arial boomerang a bit, and it was ok early on, but it is easier to get 3 or 4 targets with barrage blast and chain blast than it is with AoE attacks. I understand that a lot of folks scawf at the damage die of air, but the range and agile were good at low levels, and the range + shock rune was a lot of fun later on, because you crit pretty often when you get to use it optimally against a lot of lower level targets.

AoE damage on overlows is a little low for what they do, but if they added debuffing effects on successful saves as well, I feel like the difference between blasts and overflow burst effects would remain very significant.

I have not played around with horrid Ignition either.

chain blast i get but barrage blast? like sure it is a free third attack but how often will that third -10 map attack actually manifest into damage?

Blast Barrage is 3 attacks at full bonus. The third action would presumably be used for something other than attacking a third time, like moving or gathering. Or, heck, attack again if you're agile.

I thought the same at first glance but alas, it has normal MAP.

Huh, you're right. I was wondering why people were so focused on Chain Blast in comparison.

It wouldn't be terrible if you could do them all against a single target.

yeah if you could single target it would be good and if it was no map it would be good but as is i just dont ever see myself spending a feat on it

I used arial boomerang a bit, and it was ok early on, but it is easier to get 3 or 4 targets with barrage blast and chain blast than it is with AoE attacks. I understand that a lot of folks scawf at the damage die of air, but the range and agile were good at low levels, and the range + shock rune was a lot of fun later on, because you crit pretty often when you get to use it optimally against a lot of lower level targets.

AoE damage on overlows is a little low for what they do, but if they added debuffing effects on successful saves as well, I feel like the difference between blasts and overflow burst effects would remain very significant.

I have not played around with horrid Ignition either.

chain blast i get but barrage blast? like sure it is a free third attack but how often will that third -10 map attack actually manifest into damage?

I would not be surprised if the base kineticist class turned out to be a utility support type that only excels at wearing down multiple enemies, rather than being a powerful single-target focus fire blaster.

I also would not be surprised if the blaster that many people desire arrives in the same book as an archetype, possibly with a balancing mechanic such as a reimagined burn.

I would not be surprised if the release kineticist comes with a minor damage bump and improvement to their core combat loop that makes them more competitive at striking like pretty much every single playtested martial has gotten so far.

i would not be surprised by either of these either but i REALLY hope this is not how the class goes

Unicore wrote:

If I have the wrong read on what you are suggesting, feel free to clarify. Are you saying that you are of the opinion that a couple more points of damage, with perhaps another feat or two where you get to focus your blasts on one target would meet your expectations for the class?

If so, then I think you might be very happy with the results.

(Unicore is saying only a couple points of damage because the kineticist is only a couple points behind a martial with comparable range.)

er kineticists have the worst damage output a martial could have and still be a martial. I know that sounds hyperbollic but it is really not. they have "low accuracy" (only half the time so not a huge deal but still noteworthy) they struggle to invest in str to do damage without grabbing medium armor from outside their class so their flat damage is low. They are restricted to the one hand damage dice sizes, and the two that are d8 are incredibly bland as weapons. They can get ranged attacks that key off str which is cool and unique but again the tools to invest in str do not exist within the class itself. saying that they are only a couple points behind is implying that sneak attack, or fighter accuracy, or esoteric enhancment, or divse a stratagem, or hunters edge or rage or your choice of accuracy or damage booster that literally every other martial has only constitute "a couple points of damage"

Ravingdork wrote:

Anything with the Arcane, Divine, Magical, Occult, or Primal traits is inherently magical.

For the most part, Paizo made it pretty easy to tell what is magical and what is not.

What if it doesn't have one of those but does have, say, Evocation?

...and there are things that I'd absolutely describe as magical that don't have any of those tags... like the fact that a frog barbarian's tongue becomes impossibly long when they get angry enough. If that's not magic, then what is it?

um... "Bestial Rage (Instinct Ability)

Kekkres wrote:

evocation wizard, elemental sorcerer druid of any kind (elementalist is largely a downgrade) are all kind of.... bad at single target damage,

A level 3 or 4 elemental sorcerer can open with a 3d6 elemental blast and a 2d8+1 elemental toss, for an average of 19 damage if both land. On subsequent rounds, they can use a cantrip + sustain to maintain that same output (actually 19.5) for the rest of the combat, or up it by 2 points with telekinetic projectile, or increase it to a whopping 38.5 by nova'ing with a Sudden Bolt.

element blast comes online at level 10, I am legitimatly unsure what you are talking about with the sustained 3d6

I really don't understand where this notion came from that kineticists were going to be the savior of blasting in 2e. They weren't better blasters than full casters in 1e, not by a long shot. Expecting them to be *the* blaster of 2e is something the community made up.

because blasting was the core thing they did in pf1, they werent the best at it, but it was there thing, and that is a niche that pf2e is lacking. so in a more balanced game like pf2e, it makes sense to expect that to be the niche they fill and for them to be good at it.

Replicating spells =/= are spells.

Replicating a spell is strictly a shorthand of saying "do the same thing as X" without having to copy the whole thing again. Which btw, should be used more often.

please no, we went through the times of monsters covered in "spell like abilities" already, i dont want to go back

I don’t like that CON makes this class the worst at skills while also not being very accurate or damaging at all. That’s just really weird to me.

its not even good at con things, at its very best apex item and all, it has the same hp as what you would expect a normal fighter to end up on,

i wish my experiance mirrored yours unicore, from everything i have seen in my playtests, i have found kineticitst to just be doing everything badly, (two level 6 kineticists, one dual air fire dex man, the other dedicated earth str man) they do an awful lot of stuff badly, save for the one impulse they get off at the start of a fight before enemies can all run and get tangled into your front line. I know that the utility impulses do get very good later on, and i do like that part of the class, and my dual air fire guy would have benifited from picking up fair winds, but my players felt like they got to do "cool kineticst thing" once per fight and after that they where just sub par at everything

Kekkres wrote:

Yeah, its not that i dont think "utility kineticist" is an invalid concept in of itself, its more that if kineticist doesnt turn out to be viable as "single target elemental blastyman" than i dont see anything else ever filling that roll

I honestly think this is where much of the backlash against this Kineticist is coming from. But if evocation wizard, elemental sorcerer, elementalist druid and Oscillating Wave Psychic don't fill that role for you, then it seemed pretty inevitable that the Kineticist was going to disappoint, no?

evocation wizard, elemental sorcerer druid of any kind (elementalist is largely a downgrade) are all kind of.... bad at single target damage, since that is something that casters are supposed to be bad at so they dont eat martials pie, OW psychic is better in that regard but it is both the completely wrong asthetic for someone who wants to play a pure black mage, and is very limited in what elemental options it has acess to. you can already "emulate" a what I want with a flurry ranger, a shortbow and your choice of elemental rune, this has the same mechanical impact of what i want so saying that "it is an invalid design principle" doesnt make any sense, lightning ranger just has the completely wrong asthetic and feel

Yeah, its not that i dont think "utility kineticist" is an invalid concept in of itself, its more that if kineticist doesnt turn out to be viable as "single target elemental blastyman" than i dont see anything else ever filling that roll

Gisher wrote:

dmerceless wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

It seems odd that blasts are likely your primary go to attack, and yet you're never permitted to get an 18 to your attack stat. No other class has that issue.

I mean, Inventor and Thaumaturge both have this as well.

...

And Alchemist.

Also the Investigator, kind of.

yes but all of those can use their key stat to improve their accuracy or damage in some way, if a kineticist doesnt grab dc impulses (unlikely but plausible), their key stat litteraly does nothing

edit apparently alchemist is just bomber in my brain,

I prefer a multi charge system with some of the low level feats being "do a thing" gain a charge. Then have Impulse feats be a place to dump charges for an effect. It would give a balance between single target stuff, utility, and AoE things. Would also feel like you are opening your gatte wider and wider until you simply let it flow into your opponent to (hopefully) devastating effect.

thats probobly a bit too complecated to be realistically implement

I think the Kineticist *feels* really good. I look at the flavour of the class and the actions it can do, and it makes me happy. Paizo nailed that. But for every win in the flavour column, there's a failure in the mechanics department. My group is having second thoughts about playtesting the class because the mechanical problems are so glaring. It feels like the playtest package needs an update to get the obvious-problems out of the way, so that we can comment on the non-obvious ones.

yeah i feel like it is so easy to see the bad damage, the struggles of a str build without reaching outside the class for med armor, and the clunky action economy for a low reward that any more subtle problems there might be are getting lost in the fog, as it i feel like the ideas are good and the numbers are not, but i would have to play with a version that has good numbers to really sus that out

I'd prefer having the playtest kineticist with numbers bumped slightly up (not too much better than a cantrip) over having a focus power class that's markedly stronger. The playtest mechanics we have are interesting and thematic, they just need a little polish

I still stand by the idea that they should make gathered elements a "two handed" """weapon""" and scale it accordingly both for blasts and impulses, if blasts where d6-d10, and base impulses where rolling d6-d8 or d8-d10 with the same cantrip scaling that would feel a lot meater without derailing into outside what is reasonable to be free, at level 20 that might be 20 more damage on average than a cantrip, but its nowhere close to being a focus or slot spell

Snarecrafter also doesn't specify it giving you a new class dc like multiclass dedications so

Anyway, yeah I don't think I would like kineticist being str/dex/con key stat since whole point of class dc is that its based on your key stat, so that would just make con kinda pointless again. I'm in the "give overdrive esque ability to add con to elemental blast damage" camp here, I don't mind elemental blast being somewhat inaccurate, but if it hits it should have similar damage boost other martials have and not be equivalent of caster attacking with weapons.

does this mean that if a mage picks up snarecrafter there is an ability that calls for a dc that does not exist?

I kind of like the idea floated around here of gathering multiple charges but I would add to it and make the scaling of overflow abilities depend on how many charges you spent. I would also make overflow basically just say can spend charges instead of just losing all of them. Finally I would set a limit to the charges that uses level.

yeah "gather elements" sounds like it should entail charging up, rather than "slightly different draw weapon"

Harkening back to the immunity thing, that aspect feels overtuned to me. I'm a bit iffy on immunities in general. I think it was Mark who pointed out that granting immunities disengaged a player from that aspect of the game because it's something they no longer need to care about other than to make sure it's present as often as possible so they won't take damage, and that makes sense to me.

If anything I'd rather see the elemental immunities reduced to full-level resistance rather than expanded to encompass other damage types.

i mean that helps out with fire but like, im not sure i would take immunity to [air] effects even as a level 1 feat

a ribbon is a flavor ability that is designed to play into a classes thematic identity rather than something that adds thematic weight, you are probobly see it used in refrance to adapt element, which is full of thematic options, very few of which are especially useful