What character concepts are we still unable to build? Let us seek their essence.


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I would love to play a Raistlin Majere epic level PF2e character with the Staff of Magius.

Okay. What's missing? What prevents you from doing this thing?


Regarding the combo fighter, when I first heard about the Opener and Press mechanic I though that was what Paizo was going to do, but alas.

Another character concept that can't be done is Aldori Dueling Sword. Same with the other weapon based fighting styles like Thunder and Hammer, or the Greatsword's Demonic Style.


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Temperans wrote:

Regarding the combo fighter, when I first heard about the Opener and Press mechanic I though that was what Paizo was going to do, but alas.

Another character concept that can't be done is Aldori Dueling Sword. Same with the other weapon based fighting styles like Thunder and Hammer, or the Greatsword's Demonic Style.

Do these things show up anywhere outside of PF1? Like, can you point to an example out there anywhere other than a tabletop RPG that has the essence of one of those things in a way that PF2 cannot replicate?


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Temperans wrote:

Regarding the combo fighter, when I first heard about the Opener and Press mechanic I though that was what Paizo was going to do, but alas.

Another character concept that can't be done is Aldori Dueling Sword. Same with the other weapon based fighting styles like Thunder and Hammer, or the Greatsword's Demonic Style.

Do these things show up anywhere outside of PF1? Like, can you point to an example out there anywhere other than a tabletop RPG that has the essence of one of those things in a way that PF2 cannot replicate?

I think the 13th age monk is all about the combo life. Flowing between different attack types from different forms and such. Fun stuff.

And I'm sure GURPS has something lying around for it but that's cheating.


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Sanityfaerie wrote:
Temperans wrote:

Regarding the combo fighter, when I first heard about the Opener and Press mechanic I though that was what Paizo was going to do, but alas.

Another character concept that can't be done is Aldori Dueling Sword. Same with the other weapon based fighting styles like Thunder and Hammer, or the Greatsword's Demonic Style.

Do these things show up anywhere outside of PF1? Like, can you point to an example out there anywhere other than a tabletop RPG that has the essence of one of those things in a way that PF2 cannot replicate?

Can I ask what other TTRPGs you play and/or read the rules for? You seem to have a very narrow view and only want to compare back to D&D and Pathfinder.

Beyond that question why shouldn't we expect the new game to port a large percentage of old character builds forward into the new system?


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Temperans wrote:

Regarding the combo fighter, when I first heard about the Opener and Press mechanic I though that was what Paizo was going to do, but alas.

Another character concept that can't be done is Aldori Dueling Sword. Same with the other weapon based fighting styles like Thunder and Hammer, or the Greatsword's Demonic Style.

Do these things show up anywhere outside of PF1? Like, can you point to an example out there anywhere other than a tabletop RPG that has the essence of one of those things in a way that PF2 cannot replicate?

Aldori Dueling Sword is unique to Pathfinder and has little support in PF2 compared to PF1. The basis of it is Samurai and Wuxia sword master type stuff, but without the direct connection. The archetype helps with a bit (the disarm stuff), but there is other version of that still missing.

As for the other they exist out of pathfinder but are not named the same.


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Temperans wrote:

Aldori Dueling Sword is unique to Pathfinder and has little support in PF2 compared to PF1. The basis of it is Samurai and Wuxia sword master type stuff, but without the direct connection. The archetype helps with a bit (the disarm stuff), but there is other version of that still missing.

As for the other they exist out of pathfinder but are not named the same.

The name isn't really important here. The question is the essence of the thing. If we entirely ignore what may or may not have happened in PF1, what part of the "Samurai/Wuxia sword master type stuff" is PF2 not adequately providing? Can you describe it without making PF1 references?

For clarity, I'm willing to believe that there's something in the iconic samurai/wuxia archetypes that PF1 reflected, but PF2 does not. Thing is, there's no way that we're getting the PF1 implementation of that thing. That's not a thing that's going to happen. What I'm hoping for is that you can tease out what the essence of it is, and we can figure out a way for PF2 to implement it in its own terms.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Samurai sword master stuff, two things immediately come to mind.

Iaijutsu is big in samurai fiction, the art of quickly drawing your weapon as part of an attack (in fiction especially this often also involves sheathing the weapon to return to the neutral stance afterwards). Quick Draw is the only way to draw and attack, but confers no special benefits, is relatively difficult to access, and sheathing is always slow. there's no way to meaningfully build this kind of character. There are countless examples of characters like these.

Martial arts fiction also tends to emphasize stance and form a lot. Characters will have styles, unique stances, and importantly often move between stances during combat. Just off the top of my head from recent material, the main characters of Ghosts of Tsushima and Nioh 2 both have multiple combat stances they will move between regularly as part of their fighting style.

PF2 has stances, but mostly for monks, or occasionally to provide a singular benefit you turn on each combat. Most characters don't swap stances regularly and most stances are related to unarmed or a single combat gimmick.


Okay. Cool.

That... sounds like about one class's worth of stuff, maybe? Or most of one? Something that would, say, let you draw a weapon, sheathe a weapon, or enter a stance (while swapping out of the old stance if necessary) as a free action once per turn, plus access to a number of stances that one might wish to switch between for various reasons. At least one of the stances would open a single-action flourish maneuver that would draw a weapon and strike for additional damage (starting from empty hands). Possibly a built-in damage bonus for the class that would require you to have first drawn a weapon, sheathed a weapon, or changed stance, so you're always thinking forward from where you are to where you need to go. Possibly even have multiple stances that are designed to chain into one another in interesting ways.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Squiggit wrote:
Martial arts fiction also tends to emphasize stance and form a lot. Characters will have styles, unique stances, and importantly often move between stances during combat. Just off the top of my head from recent material, the main characters of Ghosts of Tsushima and Nioh 2 both have multiple combat stances they will move between regularly as part of their fighting style.

Another recent example: Evelyn from Everything Everywhere All at Once. She's clearly dancing between stances, multiple times per fight, and not even strictly for combat purposes.

The Ancestor Oracle plays a bit in this pond, but really being able to use stances or a close analogue to change up your proficiencies and available abilities on the fly seems like something that should be well suited for PF2 but isn't yet in the game.


Sanityfaerie wrote:

Okay. Cool.

That... sounds like about one class's worth of stuff, maybe? Or most of one? Something that would, say, let you draw a weapon, sheathe a weapon, or enter a stance (while swapping out of the old stance if necessary) as a free action once per turn, plus access to a number of stances that one might wish to switch between for various reasons. At least one of the stances would open a single-action flourish maneuver that would draw a weapon and strike for additional damage (starting from empty hands). Possibly a built-in damage bonus for the class that would require you to have first drawn a weapon, sheathed a weapon, or changed stance, so you're always thinking forward from where you are to where you need to go. Possibly even have multiple stances that are designed to chain into one another in interesting ways.

Another character with that gimmick is Raphtalia from Rising of the Shield Hero, during/after the events of season 2.

LN vol. 8+:
After she becomes the Katana Hero of Fantasy World #2/Glass's World, she acquires a lot of "on draw" abilities that are EXTREMELY powerful, but only last for 5 seconds after the Katana Vassal Weapon leaves it's sheath; in order to use them again, she has to sheath the weapon and keep it sheathed for 5-10 seconds before she can draw it again. These abilities include wind blades, speed boosts, true damage, defense up, counter damage, and resource regen.

There's also Vergil from Devil May Cry, who uses On Sheath timing to activate Judgement Cut, his only ranged attack that isn't tiny sucky throwing knives that do barely anything at all.

My guess is you'd make a 2 action, draw-cut-sheath Strike, add some extra spice like damage or a status, or make a stance that you can only make draw-cut-sheath attacks for 1 action in.


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Huh... and I feel like here is an interesting place for the sort of cadence effects that we start to see in Psychic, but haven't had a lot of in PF2 yet. Like, you designate a specific weapon each day. At the start of the battle, if your weapon is in its sheathe, it is charged. You have various "draw" abilities that pull it from its sheathe and unleash awesome things. Many of those are going to be two-action, flourishes, or maybe both. In any case, it's part of the design of the class that this is where a meaningful part of the awesome is. To regain that charge, you need to sheathe your weapon, and then have it be in its sheathe for an entire round, start to finish, at which point you could use an unsheathe action again in the next round.

The class would be designed to have some viable builds that mostly expected to unsheathe first thing in the fight and then fight more or less normally, and others that would try to unsheathe and resheathe as many times per fight as they could manage.

Huh. Might actually be better as an archetype? Or possibly as a semi-optional part of a larger class (like an expansion on the previously mentioned stance-dancer). There's not quite enough there to support a class on its own.


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The idea of a quick-draw specialist is cool to me.

You could then have a variant that can do multiple weapons (to hit different weaknesses - iai with a side of golf bag), though still locked to the cadence.

I think I'd do something like having a specific Iai Stance, and the stance is consumed by using a Draw attack. Action requirements lead to the intended cadence - Stance, Draw, Sheathe, repeat. Class can have improvements to action economy to let you do it more often, or other feats that can follow up from a Draw to let you do more things without sheathing (or even straight combo attacks - like "Requirement: your last action was a Draw")

Maybe a Sheathed Strike feat or action to let you do unboosted hits on your off turns? (No bonuses, nonlethal, etc).


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This "unsheathe style" is actually what I wanted the Gunslinger to be: link.

I love how similar samurai and western movies are and thought it would be a cool way to keep the gunslinger less weapon specific. My thought was that sheathing would be the equivalent to reloading (needing an action in between attacks) so a unique gameplay loop would be able to encompass both. Based on the polls, it looks like I was in the minority.

I still dream about a Guns and Gears with the above class so that firearm mechanics could be easily shared with all classes without encroaching on the Gunslinger's niche.


Sanityfaerie wrote:
Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I would love to play a Raistlin Majere epic level PF2e character with the Staff of Magius.
Okay. What's missing? What prevents you from doing this thing?

No epic/mythic rules :)


I can't give you a specific media example, but I just love the idea of a tiny character with a movement speed of 0 who completely relies on being carried by allies. Like a barely mobile toy poppet psychic who always lurks out of the human rogues bag. But sadly PC mounts aren't even remotely viable in pf2e, and currently there is no way to change that.


_shredder_ wrote:
I can't give you a specific media example, but I just love the idea of a tiny character with a movement speed of 0 who completely relies on being carried by allies. Like a barely mobile toy poppet psychic who always lurks out of the human rogues bag. But sadly PC mounts aren't even remotely viable in pf2e, and currently there is no way to change that.

While I'm not a fan of PF2 mounts, there are many on these boards that endorse them regularly. And if anything they do work better than having an ally carry you.

I think Master Blaster from Mad Max is an example, though that would be more a synergistic build rather than what two distinct PCs would be.

I had a PF1 concept for a Gnome that I'd have tried to make as slow as possible w/ heavy armor he didn't have the strength for and enough Oracle to get speed penalties. He would've been mounted and functional, though I doubt I would've played him as mounts can't traverse all obstacles. That'd hinder the party, not simply him.


Castilliano wrote:
_shredder_ wrote:
I can't give you a specific media example, but I just love the idea of a tiny character with a movement speed of 0 who completely relies on being carried by allies. Like a barely mobile toy poppet psychic who always lurks out of the human rogues bag. But sadly PC mounts aren't even remotely viable in pf2e, and currently there is no way to change that.

While I'm not a fan of PF2 mounts, there are many on these boards that endorse them regularly. And if anything they do work better than having an ally carry you.

I think Master Blaster from Mad Max is an example, though that would be more a synergistic build rather than what two distinct PCs would be.

I had a PF1 concept for a Gnome that I'd have tried to make as slow as possible w/ heavy armor he didn't have the strength for and enough Oracle to get speed penalties. He would've been mounted and functional, though I doubt I would've played him as mounts can't traverse all obstacles. That'd hinder the party, not simply him.

The fantasy is explicitly about being carried around by another PC and having to coordinate my strategy with them. Mounting another creature that is also controlled by me is just not even remotely the same. It's mechanically completely superior, but not nearly as exciting tactically and RP-wise as having to work with another player as a team.


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_shredder_ wrote:
A mentally strong, physically weak "martial" without any magical abilities who sucks at making strikes, never has a weapon equipped but is still a useful party member just through their great wisdom, charisma and intelligence and excells at resourceless buffs and debuffs. A true nonmagical supporter who fills the same role in a party as bard. The alchemist kinda fits this description but is way too narrow thematically, too martial in general and just IMO not fun to play.

I wanted to name Bilbo Baggins, but I see you already beat me to it. So, yeah.

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